Why Purpose Drives Growth at Passenger

0:00So if you're going to build a community, that's a two way thing, not a one way thing. They need to be able to ask you questions and you connect both ways. But really, it's on a deeper level. So it's not about what you do, it's about why you do it. Richard Sutcliffe, founder of Passenger Clothing, a brand that started in a camper van, went on to redefine what it means to build a purpose-driven business. I didn't know anything about business, branding, how big things could go. Very naive. So it was never about, oh, I know what we can do or we can't do, or we've got financial backing to be able to do something.

0:31Didn't know anything. The reality was, as I was an electrician back then, and it just wasn't fulfilling me creatively, emotionally, purposely driven. I wanted to wake up and give a shit. That was the reality of it. Welcome to Screw It, Just Do It, the show for those who decided to screw it and just did it. This is the podcast that brings you face to face with the entrepreneurs and business rebels who threw caution to the wind and built something extraordinary. When you said lifestyle business, I always remember having this conversation with Julian Hearn from Huel and him saying he'd sold a business for, I think, single seven figures.

1:04And then he decided he wanted a lifestyle business. And he was down here in Bournemouth. And he started Huel first year, did 750 grand. And he was just like, I don't think this is going to be a lifestyle business. And then fast forward a couple of years, it was it was 50 million. And now I think it's north of 500 million. But can you remember then the exact moments? Where were you with Alexa? What were you doing at that time when you made that decision? What, to start a business? I mean, I would say there's two sides to this. So, yeah, I believe at this time we were in core. No, we used to surf and get in our van a lot.

1:48And that's kind of the reasoning behind it was to try and blend those lifestyle balances. But we're in Canada. So I have my wife's family, Canadian, and we're in the Pacific Northwest in the waves and trees. Hence my obsession with waves and trees and the ethos and the visual identity of the brand. We were just like, yeah, this is what we need to do. And that became really apparent. And that element around escapism. So that was the idea to create something. And that was the idea to just create this lifestyle. Maybe have a shop. You have your dog. You can bring the kids through. Really, I didn't know anything about business, branding, how big things could go.

2:27Very naive. Literally an electrician. So I had a chat to scratch. So it was never about, oh, I know what we can do or we can't do or we've got the financial backing to be able to do something. Didn't know anything. but the next penny dropped was so we had our daughter born in um 20 she was born in 2017 um and she was born with a medical condition she's doing she's doing well now but she was in hospital for 100 days and the prognosis was she might not make it it was brutal like and and at that point literally at that point passenger was starting to take off and i remember it was sort of September of 2017, we just sort of gone out into store with surf dome and and cottage is two of the bigger retailers.

3:14We were DTC focused. But you could see the traction the community was building how much it was resonating. And obviously, it was a lovely sound to hear your Shopify orders pinging through ping, ping, it became a bit of a distraction in hospitals, we had to turn it off as another distraction. But it was that point in time we're like holy what we have created really does have legs it really does have traction so it led me to ask two different questions was one obviously i'm trying to deal with my life with my daughter in hospital and at that point as well my dog was dying so we've taken the dog with us he passed away it's brutal it kicked the out of me for many years um but it made me realize one what we've created is very powerful and really does have legs two um i need to bring in the right people that can help scale it and unlock its true potential.

4:04You could and a lot of people say that's very intelligent and that's very emotionally aware. I don't think it was that deep. I think that there was a point that's like I've put so much in I just can't let it fail. I think that's if I'm being truthfully honest but it was the right choice and it's taught me a lot about myself controlling ego and it was the right choice at the right time. It did take me a long time to find the right people who would come in with the right mentality, the right fit and the right understanding because we were creating a new category escapism and we were creating a brand that can um ebb and flow in everything that that means and it was new and people just decided i don't understand it i don't get what you mean but it it was it it went in the right direction but it was brilliant that we i was able to find those right people i love i love that um creating a new category called escapism i absolutely love that um and at that time um there's quite a few things there i want to want to unpick but at that time when you envisage that um how broad was that did that and I'm thinking you know for for people who want to escape for people who want to as we were talking off air me heading to the Alps to go snowboarding for for the weekend people who want to take the van and go down to Cornwall and surf or whatever yeah how broad was that at that stage Rich?

5:19So escapism and we like to sort of tap into meaningful escapism because it gives it context but that was from the early days when we set passenger up is we want I want to create a category and I want to put a brand in it and escapism was that category and that category is huge it's it doesn't have any boundaries and that was what was really exciting to me is because it's in it's in it's inherently in every single one of us but you ask 10 different people you'll get 10 different answers to what escapism means to them but it's all about what it means to you at that time. So you have everyday escapism, which is listening to some music, getting lost in a book.

6:00Watching TV is a perfect example that everybody does on a daily basis. And it's not about being negative. It's about being positive. And we were talking about this yesterday. So as an example, wouldn't it be amazing if we had time to be able to enjoy our garden, plant veg and see that reward? I mean, that is pretty, it's not, it doesn't sound that sexy. It isn't that big a deal, but it is quite cool and it's rewarding and therapeutic so the idea is it's not about trying to escape it's about creating space to escape that's positive and fulfills you and you can look at those those everyday decisions and then there's sort of the marketing elements where we probably get a bit more behind and you'll get lost in a van going for a trip going for a surf going for a hike going snowboarding skiing just going and exploring and seeing things new.

6:47They're all elements of escapism. And really, what we're trying to do is to say it's, there is no boundaries here. Obviously, we're going to talk about certain elements more because they resonate and inspire. But like we the one thing we can all agree on, and the one consistent I think you'd get out of a peer group of 100 ,000 people is that we all look for escapism on a daily basis. And it's not negative, that's the hardest bit is to create the connotation and the understanding that escapism isn't negative it's a positive you're trying to create that pocket of time and space um to enjoy the things you enjoy absolutely uh kind of fits into my mantra this year of doing more of what you love and less of what you don't love you know that whole feeling of waking up in the morning and not actually looking forward to what you're going to do well what's the point of living at that point you know and like you say escapism there is no ceiling on it is there it's it's whatever it can be um how old was your daughter at that time rich um so she was born in 2017 so she soon as she was born she was whisked off she's eight now um but she was born and she was whisked off um and it was yeah it's very dark and very black and they told us that she wouldn't make it um the prognosis was the bedside manner was quite poor but um we did learn and it did put things into perspective that no matter how hard things are for you there's always somebody that's that's worse off and we found that we saw that and it's a mantra that helps you put things into perspective um but yeah it did and it kicked our asses for many years um and and trying to deal with the the outcome of that and always trying to think that there's a bit of anxiety that have they got it right or wrong etc um but yeah try and that was a hard period but it enabled you to make some pretty hard decisions because you have no other choice to be honest and when you you know had that initial kind of inspiration you you and Alexa and you said um uh she was Canadian and my my I was brought up in Canada but she she's actually she's English um but her dad lived there for 15 years and so we'd go over there a lot and and her step mum's Canadian yeah so again I used to go over like every my parents split up I used to go every summer and used to have that I kind of look back now you know idyllic time you'd have a you'd have a log cabin by the lake and you'd have like Indian canoes and you'd have you know the fire and and all that kind of stuff um was it was there any thoughts at that time to to launch a business in Canada or was it always the thought to come back um to the UK to Dorset always I think because it's just what we knew um and that doesn't mean we haven't had thoughts that hey well maybe we would set something up in Canada but then having our daughter and the medical complexities she has and everything that needed that quickly was something that was just never going to be an option um i mean are we i know we'd always thought about it oh hey we could go do that wouldn't that be amazing but um so our father-in-law and and so my father-in-law uh my alexa my my co-founder and wife's uh dad moved back with tara uh um her stepmom soon as like river was born really and they realized the difficulties that she had so they've moved back and um so it's and i mean they have aspirations to move back because they miss it and if you were to name a country that um that basically pioneers outdoor escapism it's yeah yeah 100 it's all there like you just said you can so i love the pacific northwest but i also love the mountains so pacific northwest you get lost in those epic trees the hikes the surf oh it's just beautiful rugged wildlife and then you can go up to the mountains you've got log cabins you just it's just all there and when it comes when you mentioned the word ego um earlier in that conversation as well um can you talk a little bit more more about that where where was that coming from um and what did you do about it i mean this is like i'm on the journey to understand ego and i'd say that like i think it's a journey we're all on and we're all trying to understand and what where i am today and what i've learned is i think everybody has an ego it's just about how controlling you are that ego so that you can either make it positive or negative and i think a founder's job is to understand ego because there's no getting around it.

10:56So somebody taught me this and I think it's brilliant is a sign of success as a founder is making yourself redundant in your own business. And I actually get on stage and often talk about this to the team to say it really adds reality is if I was to go for a job in any one of your roles, I probably wouldn't get your job. You're better than me at your job. And actually think that's a positive, but it's taken me a long, long time to be able to be comfortable with that, saying it and actually really truly believe in it so you work on it every day as to say it's not about me um because the founder has a vision it's a team that executes it so what is special about passenger is if you were to cut passenger open or you cut the staff open their blood or their veins read passenger like a stick of rock now like they truly believe that they're passionate around and they're they inspire me like they they are in essence of what makes it what it is today and it's really important that if businesses are going to go from startup and to grow and create a positive culture and and to really drive purpose like they are the ones that do it it's not a founder anymore it's certainly not CEOs or the board it's the actual people that make a difference that make it happen every single day and it's your job as a founder to make them feel comfortable inspire lead and guide them to do that be the best version of themselves yeah and you know I I personally had a you know great background in that um and i worked for virgin atlantic for 17 years and it's crazy to think and i'm sure richard does know this but people still talk about even though they left the business you know 15 20 years ago they not only talk they still meet up you know people still meet up you know have reunions and stuff like that and it's like i wonder how many other businesses you know do microsoft do that do amazon do that i'm not sure they entirely do but but those those businesses where the staff buy into the purpose and the vision of that brand.

12:51They make it what it is. So one thing I'm really passionate around, and I actually did this on stage recently, and it just came to me. And every business gets to a point when you're growing fast and you've just got to look at it and make sure that you're, the way I like to use it, is focusing on the inputs. Because the outputs are success, growth, profit. And when you get into difficult periods which happens and things don't always go as perfectly to plan you need to then be able to start focusing on the inputs which will then lead to drive the outputs and to put that into perspective um so like people want to understand why is passion successful it's growing it's profitable well that's an output the input there for me is brand and then we're going well yeah brands make good businesses and they're like right well people make good brands so if you invest and you focus on those inputs and as an example if you have a team that's just so passionate they'll show up 200 % every single day you won't have to ask them to do it they'll do it they'll actually drag you along with them that's the environment you want to build because then the O's inputs there will drive those positive outputs and that for me is and I believe that like in my core in my bones that is what my job is a lot of I would say overwhelmingly over like eight and a half years of chatting to founders on this podcast and other years of live events.

14:09Overwhelmingly, the biggest challenge that most founders will say to me is finding those people and then keeping those people. Where do you find your people and what do you look for? Do you know what? If I'm truthfully honest, everyone says, oh, you must have done an amazing hiring process. I think we've done a good job. It could be better. I mean, when I was hiring, I didn't know what I was looking for really. And I didn't know the questions I should be asking now. I would truthfully say they found us. That's probably an easy way of saying it. And if you create the right, if you have to create the right environment, that's that's that your optics are seen, you're going to attract the right people.

14:46But you've got to make sure that the how you operate inside of a business meets the optics of outside. Because otherwise you're going to have disconnect and a high star, high turnover star. And nobody has it right. Nobody has it perfect. But if you kind of put your heart, if you can't hand up to heart and say, I'll do my very best. and I wanted to create an environment that you will believe in because it's the only way this is going to go. That is the best way to do it. And they will just find you. And have you reached the stage then, Rich, where you can replace yourself then? Absolutely. My job really now is to just make sure that it's operating to a point, and I mean from a cultural perspective, from a vision, from a strategy.

15:30I'm no longer needed. That's that and that's that's hard that still hurts to me to say it but that should be the goal That should be the that should be the vision and the goal of every founder And you just have to do a lot of soul-searching in that that doesn't mean I don't care But that's the only way it'll get there because you have to operate now And I operate with the team as a capacity of noses in fingers out And we have to have this good balance that like I'll stick my beacon and I'll try and make sure we're guiding you But I can't do your job now because one you do it better than me and two it's just not good for culture I obviously have to if there's a few scabs I have to pick at them I have to try and make sure that I ask the hard questions and my job isn't have the answers it truly is to just help ask the questions and guide and obviously there are some deliverables so it's not all just fluff but an element of it has to be a bit of fluff because it's the only way you'll create that culture and a successful environment.

16:25In theory then for yourself Rich could you ultimately work from anywhere you could take that escapism to the nth degree we do have a pretty good remote hybrid business that has its challenges that like obviously you want to to bring connection together as a team you want to make sure you get the right output levels so it's a balance it's to and fro you make products so that really needs to be done in in in person but then you have to make sure that you're setting those meetups up for success so then you can go away and action it um me personally it's probably a little bit harder to not uh be around because of my role and the inspiration i'm trying to drive so um it's finding that right balance that sometimes yep i can be anywhere and actually sometimes it's quite good to be able to show that like hey this is the type of people we are so if we're going to work for a brown light passenger and we're not going to live it we might as well turn the lights off and go home because I believe we failed um but then also turning up in the right way to try and bring inspiration face to face is also positive like we are people we need connection but it's it's balance and nobody's got it right and we're still figuring out as we go through it chatting to Ted Baker founder Ray Kelvin recently and his first product was a shirt what's your what was Passage's first product Reg?

17:50It was a t-shirt um and it's on the wall actually and so it was two t-shirts actually so one of those was a t-shirt with our old um a symbol which is very similar to you can see behind me and we plonked the map of the pacific northwest over the top and the second one was actually this is this is an interesting one is it's a cabin from the arctic circle that i took a photo of when i came across it and the reason that's important is back in I think it was around 29 2010 I trekked the Arctic Circle for eight days and the first cabin that we managed to find was like hey we're going to live tonight we get the finest cabin and it was all it was all okay because we're pretty off it was off grid and we were just with a polka but the beauty of that is that trip there made me realize my lostness like what is it I was searching for and it was escapism i was in that moment and that's when it dawned on me that trip what it is i was trying to understand and then back in 2012 like cool let's build a brand from it that's so cool i love that um and and those early days right were they were they as romantic as as they sound hearing you now or was it more blood and guts it it was a shit show like no doubt about it.

19:07I didn't really have a life for eight years because I'd be getting up at five in the morning and I'm chatting to suppliers in the Far East trying to learn production. I'm trying to learn marketing brand. My wife's working with bootstrapping evenings and weekends. We're working. We're just trying to set it all up. We were failing and learning at the same time. If we'd go away, we'd work in the van. We had our dog Ralph with us who was still with us then. And we'd sit in like, I remember going for a surf in Cornwall and then the Sunday was blown out. So we drove into dartmoor and just got under the cover in a car park and just basically designed um it was a hustle like it's an amazing it was amazing because it taught me a lot about myself i didn't know what i personally was capable of um but i don't think about the beans and the taint to do that again because it was it was like you've got to be all in a thousand percent otherwise it just won't work but if you're passionate around it it's not like a job um it you just you just you So the way we looked at it, it was like this was either going to be successful or I was probably going to die trying because I could not stop.

20:08I was addicted. So you're not going to be one of these founders. And I don't think you see it that often, but I've seen it a few times with people I've had on the show who have gone and created, you know, these amazing, you know, nine, nine, ten figure brands even. And they decide to go and do it again five or six years later. But that doesn't sound like that's the. I don't think I could. I just, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to help get involved with somebody that might have what I don't have. And I can bring the knowledge that I now have and the experiences and what I've learned. Now, that's definitely not, but it would have to be, for me, purpose driven.

20:43It would have to have a responsible wedge because it just doesn't make sense for me otherwise anymore. And it would have to be really cultural led. What kept you going then when it felt like it wasn't working, when you were like failing on a regular basis? And ultimately, now you obviously know by, you know, the faster you fail, the quicker you're going to get to your goal. Right. But at the time, it just feels bloody horrendous. So I think back in the early days, ego would have kept me going because we were financially all in. I mean, I'm quite happy to admit this, but I think we had loans of up to about£60 ,000.

21:15That was back in 2012. That's a lot of money back then. And that's money we didn't have. We borrowed it. Everything by the house was on the line. So from an ego perspective, if it failed, we're in trouble. No doubt about it. So that kept me going then. But as the brand scaled, and today I'm asked that question, which I have been actually, what keeps me here today? It's the team that we feel. Like, what really excites me is the connection and the community we feel, especially the community of people in the business. So we're close to about 90 staff now. And they're all very like-minded people. There's people all over the world now that talk to each other, become friends.

21:52And to think that like something I created in my loft around the corner was able to be the catalyst to bring like minded people together. Like that's something I'm really proud of. Yeah, no, no. So you should be. And actually, as you mentioned the word, how difficult is it to to build a community community? Because you talk about, like, say, the 90 people in the business, but exponentially multiply that by however many figures you want and how many people have bought into the brands and the vision and the purpose. not the fact that they just want to wear a you know another cap or another t-shirt but they've specifically chosen yours over fill in the blanks i won't name any other brands but um people might be able to work it out but ultimately building community is not an easy thing to do right if it was easy there'd be everyone would have a community but they don't right so what have you got right there and what has been um the hardest parts on trying to build that community um so if you're going to build a community that's a two-way thing not a one-way thing um so they need to be able to ask you questions and you connect both ways but really it's on a deeper level so it's not about um what you do it's about why you do it so there's a Simon Sinek if anybody knows him out there just love that guy and he's had a real inspiration on me and how I've seen things uh one day I'd love to meet him because I've mentioned him so many times but that in essence is really it it's about why you do it not what you do and the and the output will be successful community and hopefully a profitable business that is adding value to people and it's honest and authentic to build a community you got to be authentic they're the bullshit radar on the community is strong they'll smell it straight away um and was there like any moment in those early years that you can kind of pinpoint where you thought you'd have to walk away or were you too far in as you said you were 60 grand in you're emotionally invested you're financially invested wasn't an option yeah many times i mean i can give you many many many times so we weren't profitable in the beginning and because i wanted to build a brand and i wanted to sort of do things maybe a little bit lofty by building a category not and i wasn't a businessman who could go business model first like i wanted it to be lofty um and i wouldn't change that if i did it again um i know there'd be different things i could avoid some mistakes but um i think that was really important but like often you'd get up and be thinking am i going to be able to pay the lights uh keep the lights on monday i'm going to be able to pay the team many a time i didn't get paid for a period of time because you got other people that relied on you so that was that was on many occasions we've dodged many of bullets um covid is an example when that came through if we'd have shipped stock a week earlier um before the kind of flags were out, we wouldn't have had stock and therefore we wouldn't have been able to trade and we would have failed.

24:50So that was another bullet dodged. I mean, the working capital requirement for a B2B business, I was always trying to borrow more. I mean, by the end of it, I probably had debt of close to half a million in the early days just to be able to keep stock turning um so it's so i was emotionally i was deep deep deep but emotionally and financially um and there's always challenges that that you have um but i was like you say as i was i was probably naive naivety was a really big thing by the way i don't want to we've talked about this a lot with some of the team if i'd have known what i know now you probably wouldn't do it because you just know all the obstacles so naivety was a blessing yeah no and i always remember asking um jim cregan that after um after you sold jimmy's iced coffee and i just said if you knowing what you now know would you do it again and he went no chance and i went really you actually surprised me i thought you might have it in you to go of course i win he's like no knowing what i know now i would never have even started yeah it's like so that's a big word i would say naivety is a blessing enjoy it while you can because it allows you like because i was an electrician i hadn't come from the industry so it's not like we did things differently because we wanted to disrupt just didn't know how it was done so we did it differently by not by default so therefore and i always say i just want to fuck shit up but do it responsibly and that's kind of what we did actually like we didn't follow the same status quos we just didn't and that's why we're a little bit different because we had no we had no guidance obviously now we've got guard rails to make sure we're a little bit better but all of this was like alien to me what's what's been like one one of the hardest calls you've had to make um in in staying true to your mission have there been um element opportunities um that have come your way that um have maybe caused you to kind of stray off that track or has it been pretty laser focused over the years so there's there's a few sides to that so i would say the hardest thing we've had to do as a business was letting the US team go and the UK team that worked with the US.

27:01So when we had to exit the US because of the tariffs and the difficulties, we had a very short period of time to make the decisions. It was the right decision for the business and the brand, but that doesn't make it easy. So that was probably one of the hardest things we've had to do because passengers always had good news stories going up to that. But it's never been perfect. It's never been straightforward. So we like to work in a sort of three-year cycles and and when i brought in sort of justin stone and john lane uh back in um so justin stone came on board john lane came aboard as our ceo it we we all agreed that we had a vision of three years uh and then we'd like to work in three-year cycles because we can make sure the rule align to what we want to do short term and long term um and then you hit that point in time and then you you what do we want to do now where we want to go but you know you'd obviously be chipping away at them all the way through but when you bring in other people there's no doubt about it everybody comes with new ideas um so the hardest bit I think for me is because I don't have any experience and I it's like I don't carry a lot of weight whether because I just one I'm not that type of person but two it's not like I've been around and done this before whereas other people have so it's quite hard to make sure that you stay true to a vision and a focus when you don't have that like that clout and I might not be the best communicator of clarity because as a founder you're pretty all over the place although I am consistent my I know where my weaknesses are and I've been trying to work on them so to try and sort of maintain that vision as you go around and make a few mistakes bring in certain products I don't know go after a position yourself that you know is not correct or quite right you're trying to bring everyone back together that's the hardest bit and and I think that's the thing you really have to work at and as a founder it's really important and that's where I'm learning now is how I can articulate that how I can get the message across as a two-way conversation it's a challenge and commit this is the vision what do we do we agree and then keep that rotation flowing through so the tweaks are natural and they make sense rather than big pivots just because somebody sees it differently but we're getting in a really good position and you have to continuously work at it.

29:15Like if you think it's going to be easy and you think that it's your way or no way, then you're going to be wrong because you kind of have to believe in yourself and trust yourself, but don't be a dick about it. Really find that really open environment where you can have honest discussions, right and wrong, challenge, and just try and maintain consistency whatever you do. Fantastic answer. tell me what what are the weak spots that you're working on then give me give me a couple of those rich weak spots so firstly i've got to say haven't i there are no weak spots perhaps it's just perfect that's what i've got to say but the reality is we all know that doesn't exist um i mean the the the the macroeconomics at the moment are proving very challenging um so it makes your weak spots quite hard so for instance if you want to be truly purpose-led truly brand-led truly maintain your vision and not look at commercial opportunities that might drive um short-term success because things are hard that's a weakness always will be like trying to balance the commercial opportunities with your long-term vision um and so us being able to say no to all of those commercial opportunities that come through on a daily basis is hard and it's a distraction and weakness and i think that would be apparent in most brands and businesses doing very well so that would be one weakness um you've been a b corp for a while as well is that right no so we're not actually b corp so um and the reason we're not b corp is because we do a lot of different aspects and we wanted to do things in our own way um so so i actually so we would probably fit the criteria or most of the criteria instantly for B Corp.

30:59But we just focus on some different areas. So for instance, which I only realized the other day, we have one tree planting partner since 2018. We spent$670 ,000 with them. I was like, what? I had no idea it was that much. So we planted over like two and a half million trees now. Two and a half million, that sounds insane. Yeah, so I went out and seen some of the impacts that we've been working with. and like how it's more than just trees so you give farmers knowledge tools experience they plant not just trees trees are a part of that ecosystem so a western world wins because we get um we get it quantified and it's brilliant but that would only work because these guys are actually doing amazing and it's a whole um mentality and mind shift over there which i learned um and i'm it's yes it was a really proud moment to see that see the impact and they're thanking you and we took photos took a polaroid out with us and got photos with the families i've got on my wall um so yeah they're all the things that yeah keep you focused what's your favorite tree give me a favorite tree oh it's a pine tree all day long douglas fir easy same same same same all day long all day long um so how do you how do you handle the growth without diluting the the ethos of the business um and you've obviously been on the journey for for quite quite a while you don't and i think anybody who's telling you like that is hard that is hard and and i think the only way you can do it is to create an environment and a framework with a team and a leadership team that understand it that it's a push and pull uh sometimes you've got slow down growth to put brand back and um but at the same time is you can't be a purpose-driven brand if you're not profitable because you don't have the luxury or you won't be able to do it for very long so they are in they are they are in harmony they are really they're just so well connected and it's the environment that you you create in every brand to be able to have those open discussions but as long as you make sure we're all green to our north star and we're trying to make sure that we do this in the right thing we won't cut corners sometimes you do cut corners because there might be reasons why you need to do them for the short term requirement.

33:18But if you've all got that long term vision, you should hopefully have a better chance of doing it. But they do not go hand in hand. If you pull that one lever too hard, the other lever goes and vice versa. So that's just a reality of it. Yeah. Last couple of questions for you, Rich. What does success look like now compared to what success looked like 10, 15 years ago? So I think 10, 15 years ago, commercial success would have been the driver because that means you get to keep the lights on and you're still in business in the next day. So I think at that point, when I wasn't profitable, success was getting out of the red and into a positive situation to be able to do more.

34:00Now, success for me looks like we, from a brand and cultural perspective. So something I'm proud of and creating a legacy. So if I'm ever not at this place, I know that the legacy lives on, not from an ego perspective, but just the vision, the culture. And that actually goes with the team that you've instilled that vision with. And that's why it's really important. So, yeah, culturally and brand perspective is now my success for me now. We mentioned briefly before, and we tell us a little bit more about it, but you went to launch in the US, right? and then Trump, tariffs, trade war, et cetera.

34:40You had to rewind, and that's one of your biggest regrets, having to let the team go. What does the three-year plan at the moment, then if you're in the middle of a three-year plan or about to start a new year plan? In the middle of a three-year plan, great example. And what does that look like when it comes to global, UK, Europe, et cetera, et cetera? So UK and Europe is our focus now. We'd already had parts of Europe as our focus and the US, But now when you remove the US and the millions and the time that we'd invested in that, and we were literally just seeing the fruits. So we had a great team out there, like a fantastic team.

35:15And Matt Little, who was our GM from the US, who I'm happy to say he's a brother from another mother, absolute amazing human being, totally got what we were doing, understood it, and would be prepared to give blood, sweat and tears for it. And that filtered into the team that we had. So that was really hard. and the UK team, but we basically had to unwind from that and basically try and plug the revenue loss commercially there, but do it in the right way. So we just basically pick back up into Europe and double down there. But we were already seeing traction. We just weren't focusing on it. So it's a quick pause and pivot for us.

35:54What would you tell the 2012, 2011 version of yourself, knowing what you now know, if you could tell them one thing? one thing and one thing only understand your ego love it how do you want passengers to be remembered in in another 10 years time say so the off the cuff one would be i want to passengers be remembered for fucking shit up but doing it responsibly um if you were to put that in a kind of a more commercial uh pc version um i would say the pc version would be understood that We tried to be ourselves and authentic and we changed the game, not because we tried to change the game, not because we're any better.

36:39We just, we were naive. Just a bunch of quick fire questions to finish up. So first thing that comes into your head, what is an entrepreneur? Oh, do you know what? I really don't like that word. No, I talk about this a lot. And the reason I don't like the word entrepreneur, because it says it's about ego, it's about yourself. So an entrepreneur is a connector of dots. Okay, nice. A hustler as such. Yep. What does this country need to do, UK, to get more startups? Need to incentivize the risk takers because most of them fail. So whether that is a founder looking to do something or investors to help support them, They need to incentivize them to take a risk.

37:30And then they should probably be incentivized to take more responsible risks. So that it's not just about commercial return. But without that, it's going to be a very difficult position. As an example, Passenger wouldn't be here without investment from the right people at the right times. Like that is intrinsic to the success of Passenger. And it was a huge risk for them. What was a scale up business for you? Oh, that's a really good question. for me has to be brand led so so i actually think when i brought in the commercial team in the business it would be the perfect example small team revenue driving not profitable yet but man did it have a great brand and a great story and you can go i can bring in my experience and understanding of a commercial world to commercial world to scale that up and make it a successful commercial business off the back of the hard work i haven't had an answer like that i think it's a Great answer.

38:25Why, and again, coming back to why you're looking at the US maybe, why is the USA better at producing scale-ups, unicorn businesses than the UK? What have they got that we haven't got? Probably a lot more of a customer base to tap into. So this is how I would look at it. So pre-Brexit, you had the UK and Europe. You could say that that was the equivalent of the US, although they might speak the same language. your operational capacity to one reach a new customer and two distribute to them was big the US although they speak the same language is it is like having 52 different countries in there so they have such a big market that you can have a distribution center or an office that you can you can tap into all that network quite conveniently when we had Europe it was very similar so that I would say is the difference now we're we're obviously an individual country we only have a small market so everything outside of that adds complexity and cost finishing up rich what founder do you admire the most and that can be somebody like from back in the day and all that could be a founder now that people haven't heard about oh it's a great question so I'm going to say Simon Sinek as a founder because he's founded various businesses purely for the fact that his um just just his view on how business and culture and performance are set and obviously you have people like von shavard from patagonia who um who path the way i think for uh progressive positive uh businesses to to be cultural and and um to be cultural led so let's say yeah nice i don't know simon's done a lot of stuff with virgin fully enough i know you said you did a talk for virgin recently and i know they've had simon on a number of times as well so in good company um uh you don't have to answer this one now but anyone you think would be in your network that you think would be a great guest for the show that that people haven't heard their story necessarily or they don't hear the story very often that's not i can't think anyone right now but i know for a fact i've got some gold who when I chat to them, I'm just like, fuck me, you're inspiring.

40:45I'm just like, I want to hear more. Tell me more. There are some brilliant people. Yeah, yeah, there are some really great people out there. I would say Tom from Finistair, actually. He's had some difficulties in life as well. And so we share a similar journey, but he's a great human being and doing a great job and flying the purpose flag. So he's a good person and I always enjoy his company. Yeah, nice, nice. Well, look, Rich, thank you so much. I've been wanting to chat to you for a while now so many people name check the brand and you're on a super interesting journey obviously it's not been easy if it'd been easy everyone would be doing it right but it's super inspiring to hear and I know our audience is going to really enjoy listening to your story so thanks for joining us thank you for having me if this conversation resonated with you don't just sit there, act on it make sure you follow or subscribe for more game changing conversations and remember the only thing standing between you and your business breakthrough is the decision to screw it and just do it.