717 - The Screenwriting Life: The Craft Lessons That Matter Most

0:01Hello and welcome. My name is John August and you're listening to episode 717717 of Script screenwriting. Craig and I went there to talk about the scripted book, which is out there in the world. They'd read it, they loved it, but we also had a good deep conversation about lots of other things related to writing and the craft and the process. It was a really good conversation, a great chance to talk with other pros about this business that we all love. If you don't know them, Megalophove is the co-writer of the Inside Out movies, as well as The Good Dinosaur and Captain Marvel. Lauren McKenna is a writer on shows like Curious George and a former story manager for Pixar.

0:52If you enjoyed this episode, give them them a follow, The Screenwriting Life. We'll put a link in the show notes. It's a great show for anybody who listens to our show to also listen to. One of the things I really appreciate about their show is that they talk every week. They open up with a segment where they talk about the writing they did that week and where their successes and failures were and their challenges. That was just great. So take a listen to this episode and if you like them, give them a follow as well. So most of the episode is that and then we'll be back at the end for some boilerplate, some follow-up and in our bonus, if we're for premium members.

1:22We're going to talk about the career, the life of Rob Reiner. I knew him. I knew his wife, Michelle. I knew way too much about sort of the places where this tragedy happened. But I also want to celebrate sort of the incredible things that he was able to do and just share some personal reflections on Rob Reiner. So enjoy this episode and we'll see you here at the end as we wrap stuff up. Thanks.

1:48Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFouf. And I'm Lorianne McKenna. Today, we have a truly special show. We are talking to John August and Craig Mazin, the duo behind the Much Loved Script Notes podcast, which has been running for 14 years. John August is a screenwriter whose credits include Aladdin, Big Fish, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Corpse Bride, Frank and Weenie, and the first two Charlie's Angels movies. In addition to his work in film, John wrote the Arlo Finch middle grade novel trilogy and earned a BAFTA nomination for his script of the Broadway musical Big Fish.

2:20through his company, quote unquote, apps. John makes utilities for writers, including Highland and Weekend Read, along with a writer emergency pack, which is used in 2000 classrooms nationwide. He was also a member of the 2023 WGA Negotiating Committee. Craig Mason is a multiple Emmy award-winning co-creator, executive producer, writer, and director of such shows as the smash hit HBO series, The Last of Us. Record-breaking and critically acclaimed, season one became the most watched debut of any series for HBO. Previously, Craig served as creator, writer, and executive producer of the HBO limited series Chernobyl, for which he won two Emmys, a Golden Globe, a BAFTA, a Peabody, and awards from the Writers Guild, the Producers Guild, the Television Critics Association, and the American Film Institute.

3:08Currently, Craig is executive producing the upcoming HBO e-sports drama Damage, alongside writer, director, and executive producer Celine Song. And together, John and Craig have released a brand new book, Script Notes, a book about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters, which distills more than 700 episodes of podcast conversations, craft principles, and no bullshit wisdom. John August and Craig Mazin, welcome to the show. Oh, we're so excited to be here. Thank you. All right. So the first thing that you guys have agreed to do with us today is Adventures in Screenwriting, or how was your week?

3:41We'll let Lorian kick it off. Go ahead, Lorian. So my week this week was actually really good. It started out really shitty because I've been so busy, right? What is it, Meg? The busyness is the... The highest form of laziness. Highest form of laziness. So busy, so stressed. And I have a project due on Monday. And so all those like self-doubt, fear, all those icky things came crashing in. And I had the sort of panic moment of, I have to burn it all down. So instead of that, I talked to my therapist and we made a big list of all the things I'm doing. And I have to say no to a lot of things, which is good, and prioritize my time and energy so that I'm focusing on the right things.

4:25And so I did that and feels I feel more in control and more powerful in the right ways. And so I have a good plan for the end of this year and into the first quarter of next year. So it's been a good week. It sounds horrible, but cathartically speaking. It's a good week. Craig, how was your week? Well, it wasn't that different from yours. I mean, my guess is if our weeks are defined by the anxiety that we experience and then the panic that we have and then the burn it all down and then the wait, I'm a genius. And then wait, I'm an idiot. That's pretty much my week every week. I'm up here in Vancouver and we're prepping the third season of The Last of Us.

5:07So I spend my week with forced busyness. I don't want the busyness, but they force it on me. I try and have them divide my day. So, okay, mornings are meetings, scouts, all of that stuff. And then afternoons are writing. The problem, of course, is sometimes I just don't want to. And also sometimes it just doesn't happen. And this has been, the script that I'm in right now is a tricky one because it's kind of middle-ish, which is always hard. But there were some nice breakthroughs. you know, just been sitting with a lot of discomfort, as my wife says. And, uh, but I also had like a lovely moment this week while I was peeing.

5:47It's not about the peeing itself, but I was peeing and I had an idea. It's amazing how often this happens where I just need to remove myself from civilization and go into a bathroom or a shower. And then suddenly I, I have an, And so I had an interesting idea that made me, that scared me. And I wanted something scary. And I went, oh my God, that's scary. Congratulations on the pee breakthrough. Right? All right, John, how was your week? My week was really good, largely because I turned in something last Friday. And it's weird how like, you know, 30 years into this career, you'd think I would get over the joy of turning in a thing, but it just feels so nice to have a script off your desk and for not to be consuming all of the brain cycles.

6:31because especially that last week where you're trying to make all the last little pieces fit, it was a rewrite. So like I, it wasn't the first time through, but there were a lot of notes I was trying to incorporate. I wanted this to really reflect both what I intended, but also what the filmmakers needed to do. And I had made a plan for turning it on Friday and I just, I hit it. And like Friday morning, it was just, it was just done. It was ready to go. Drew had proofed it, sent it through. And I still had that relief of having a thing off my plate. and so this week was really fun because I could just do the other stuff that kept getting delayed and deferred because I was so busy working on that script so the main thing I was writing this week is I have to prepare for a speech for next month and it was really a chance to think through what do I actually think about this thing what am I trying to communicate how am I writing for my own voice so that was a fun thing to be working on and Craig and I had finished all the sort of the first round of promotion for the Script Notes books So it was just a chance to revel in people reading the book and enjoying the book.

7:35So it was just a dream week. It's also nice to get all this stuff done before the holidays and have a sense of like, it's just not living over me. I'm not expecting any notes until January. It was a very good week for me. Perfect. It's perfect. It's the perfect timing. We can't wait to talk about the book. We both really - But Meg, tell us about your week. I will tell you about my week because it actually has a question for you guys. My week is a question. So we're just going to dive in. I love a question week. So my week was I'm writing a script for a studio with my partner and I'm doing the, my, you know, I'm in there doing the draft and I'm ready to send it back to my partner because I think we're done.

8:12And I realized, well, wait, I should go check those notes they sent us. Meaning we had done verbal notes. And then we had taken off on the verbal notes. We were, they were great notes. We were so inspired. We're cutting out characters. We're cutting out subplots. It was so fun and challenging. And then I read the notes and I was like, oh shit, there's more stuff in here. And there's like a big thing in here that I did not, by the way, they might've said it on the phone and I just didn't catch it. Or in writing the notes, it came out or who knows? So nothing bad to the studio. I should have read the notes before taking off, right?

8:47Because, and in the notes, it says that the main relationship, they're just not really connecting to them as a couple. That's a big note. it's a big note it's a really big note and I think a lot of the other notes are actually symptoms of this right because now that's a problem that's both well maybe they are problems because you're not emotionally connecting to the characters and I because I came from the Pixar school of thought I'm like I have to blow it all up I have to blow up the whole thing because at Pixar if you get a note like that we're starting over just like breathe outline which so I got very overwhelmed called my writing partner overwhelmed him which was not the smartest thing to do because, you know, poor guy driving in the car and I'm like, oh my God.

9:31So my question to you is, short of blowing it up, let's say I'm not going to blow it up because that's in a way easier to just go, well, fuck everything, let's just start over. I don't know, somehow to me that's easier because I can start blue skying again. It's the burn it down philosophy. If I'm not going to do it, well, and sometimes a lot of times you do have to start over. So I'm totally in for it and up for it. If you guys get a note like that, that they're not connecting emotionally to a character, where do you guys go? I go to the first from where we first meet them. I think so often that is a symptom of they did not meet the character in a way that they were ready to engage with them and to click with them.

10:12And they were not, something was not setting their hooks of curiosity correctly as we were first meeting this character. And that's why they're not seeing themselves in their situation. So I fully hear the like burn it down star all over. again, but that's definitely not my go-to reaction. It's that something in those first few scenes where we get to know this character are not inviting them into the story. Well, I will sympathize with you. I mean, the overwhelmed feeling is the worst and it doesn't help, but it's so natural. It just comes and you feel like you're drowning. It feels like, well, the work that I would need to do to make this good is impossible to do in the time I have.

10:57What do I do? Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. But of course, if you could come back from the future and hand you the script that is finished, that does fix everything, it would only take you a day or two to write it after you read it, right? Like if you know what to do, you have the time. So in a situation like this, The first question I have is, this is about a central relationship. Which of those characters is the quote-unquote protagonist? One of them is, I assume, the protagonist. Why does that person need to meet the other person? So it just goes to the question, what is this movie about?

11:41What's the point of all this? And if I know what the movie's about and I don't know what the point is, and I know what the problem is with this main guy, and I know what this main character needs to be at the end, which presumably is different. Why is this other person the perfectly best person to send in? Why does God send this person? And so it's a reflection in a way. It's what they needed to get. And if you think about it like that, then suddenly you don't have to wonder, like, how do I make people care about this? You're just going to care because you understand inherently this person's poking right at the thing that our hero didn't want poked.

12:26That's really interesting because I think what's happening is normally in the past, I've written transformative characters that have to meet the person that's going to poke them, help them change, help them change their view of life and themselves. These are characters who are more claiming their power, meaning think about Titanic, right? They're not wrong, but they need each other in order to move right to the next place. And their transformation is more acclaiming of who they are. And Moana is a claiming character to me, right? She's singing her song. She's right. Her song is right. She needs to go.

13:03She's just full of doubt. And her how is wrong, right? So who does she need to meet? Okay, you're right. But this is my point. Kate Winslet knows that she should be an independent woman who doesn't have to marry this guy. Except she's on a boat and she's going to marry that guy. Who does she need to meet? And what's so delicious is that when she does meet Leonardo DiCaprio, she's just giving him the arguments that her mother gave her. I don't like you. You don't live right. I shouldn't be with you. You're gross. Fuck off. And we know that she's just, okay, you're literally afraid to do the thing.

13:42you're so afraid you'd rather die than actually stand on your own two feet and here comes this rakish fellow you know perfect all handsome I don't I love this story class and discussions we're having here but I want to get back to make your initial comment which is basically that you went back to these notes you realize like oh they have this thing here which we didn't address in this but at the same time you had a call with them where they're highlighting their main note wasn't about this relationship. Going back through those notes, you started that moment of doubt was - Yeah, it's literally in the middle of a paragraph.

14:20In the middle of a paragraph. So here's what I'm saying is that like, I just, I am skeptical that you, Meg, with all your experience, have actually done something so disastrously bad in this relationship. And while it may be useful for you to think about like, how do I do this thing better? I doubt that you've done a bad job. I doubt that it's actually a crisis. And because if there was a crisis, these people, their notes would have been about that. That would have been the giant red flashing lights there and it was not. And so I just I want to both honor and acknowledge that yes, it's so great to be thinking about how we maximize this relationship and do we have the right people but also you can rip apart things that are working beautifully with the false goal of improving sometimes.

15:04So I just You guys have to come on the show every week and talk to me about my writing. And number two, my poor writing partner basically said the same thing and I yelled at him. I see. Because in the overwhelm, I was like, you're not listening. Like that kind of thing. Well, I get that because you have to balance what John is saying, which is a general healthy self-regard with the other concern, which is that you're just going, la, la, la, I don't want to hear this note. But you wouldn't be overwhelmed and have this feeling if you didn't think maybe they were onto something. Like when they're, if I know that these characters are compelling in the way that I've created them for me and someone's like, I'm just not compelled by them, then I don't know what else to do because I know I did this right.

15:56But if someone says these aren't compelling and it's really, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, it's because I think deep down probably. I think you're right. Yep. So now overwhelm, you're going to be, You're our Kate Winslet today, Meg LeFouf. Oh my God. You're overwhelmed. And when you're yelling at your writing partner, that's you flinging yourself into the ocean. This is so fun. And you're just going to turn back to your writing partner and say, take my hand and carry me off and let's do whatever the writing equivalent is of having sex in a car and storage in the Titanic. And you can get on the door, writing partner.

16:33Yes, and then you know what? You can get on the door. We both fit on the door. We both fit on the door. There's plenty of room.

16:40We'll be right back. Welcome back to the show. So we've been doing this podcast for a while, clearly not as long as you two have been doing script notes, but I have this experience, I think, Meg does too. We learn something every time we talk to somebody, whether it's an epiphany about our writing or a process or just, oh, I hadn't thought of that or, oh, I didn't know that. So when you sat down to write this book, what did it force you to face like to articulate that you never got the chance to do in the podcast specifically around like what did you learn putting this book together what surprised you so it was my idea my team's idea to do it because our our listeners had often said like oh we would love to have a book and so the theory was like oh you could just take the transcripts and print the transcripts and it would have been like larger than an entire library there's just too much there as we had to distill it down.

17:32And so then it became an issue of like, what are the topics? And then how do we go through the transcripts and pull everything we've talked about, you know, character introductions over the course of 700 episodes to see what kind of stuff was there. I think the one happy surprise is that we've been very consistent. Like, you know, from episode 20 to episode 900 or 720, we are very much the same. our messages are the same. But distilling it down was so, so, so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I was naive. And so we had Drew Marquardt, our producer, Chris Sant, who's one of our editors, Megan Rau, lots of folks who worked with us all throughout this process, trying to pull and distill and to get it down to one consistent voice was just really hard to do.

18:25I'm really happy how we were able to get there, but it was just a long slog to do it. Like any writing project, you sort of think like, oh, I know exactly what this is going to be like. You can sort of envision the final product, but getting there is just a much more of a journey and adventure than I was anticipating. I learned nothing because I didn't do it. So here's what I did. I showed up and talked for 700 and some odd hours. And then John and the Script Notes team did all the work to turn it into a book. What I really, you know, I've said this many times, like I spend most of my life being in charge.

19:04So I'm in charge of my show and I, I like it. I like being in charge. I mean, it's hard. There are a lot of challenges. It's exhausting, but it's what I do. And then script notes. I am not. I love it. it's so awesome to not be in charge. Like, I don't know if you guys are like, is one of you in charge or both like, you both like share. No, no, share. You share. I love that. And really the podcast was John's ID in the first place. I've always been a guest on my own show. John comes up with what we talk about. John figures out everything. My job is to show up and be as spontaneously entertaining and as informative as I can possibly be It's like John gets to summon me like a wizard summons a familiar.

19:54I just pop into the world completely like, what, huh? What are we talking? Great. Doop, doop, doop, boop, boop. And then an hour later I go poof. That's amazing. I love that. You know, it's funny, Lauren and I had this conversation after reading your book. We were like, you know, pretty much we can just tell people, go read this book. You cover everything and it's all so good and all so insightful. But we're just going to talk about a couple of the things in the book just to let everybody know, just get a taste of it and all the great stuff. And obviously, we're not even going to get in depth and even one topic because the book is so in depth and great.

20:32You guys talk about, and I believe this was mainly Craig's chapter, but in terms of structure and that there are these people who are analysis people. And they create these things where this is what structure is. you have to hit this, this, and this. And then how that is kind of bullshit because it's about creation and it's more of a spine or a skeleton inherent within the character. And it's interesting because at first, in listening to it, I was hoping it would be your voices and it's not, but the guy's very great. His name is Graham. He's fantastic. Graham is fantastic. He's now part of your ethos to me.

21:12You were talking about, Craig, how at first you were kind of like structure's bullshit, basically. And I love structure. So I was like, we're going to have a fight on the podcast because I love structure. Structure is everything to me. But then I realized we have a different way of saying the same thing. I say it as structure is the character's movement. Exactly. And you're watching a human being come to consciousness about something. Exactly. Right? And you're saying, and I loved your word because it helps me think of my own script in a different way. it's a, I want to make sure I get the right words right, that to you it's a central dramatic argument, a thesis that you're putting forward and you use examples like men and women can't be just friends, better be dead than a slave, if you love someone set them free.

22:01That's so great to take to my work and be like, I think about words, I think about redemption, I think about forgiveness, but that isn't fully a thesis yet. What do you have to say about forgiveness, right? So my question to you, and I love this chapter, you break down Nemo. I've used Nemo too, which was fun. I was a little jealous. I was like, wait a minute. But I thought, okay, mind melt. How do you, and I'm asking both of you now, how do you get to that argument? When you're writing drafts, how do you find and distill it down? Do you always not start before you have it? Do you find it as you go?

22:39So, you know, how do you, even if you have a word, let's say forgiveness or, you know, how do you distill it into that argument or that theme that will become the structure and the character movement? I do caution people, I think, even inside that bit to not necessarily feel like they have to start by writing down a bunch of fortune cookie things and then what story should go on. And we often start with an idea. So really, the thing that gets you excited is the thing you should start with. You have an idea for a plot. You have an idea for a cool character in a place or time. The next question I usually ask then is like, okay, if I have an idea for a movie, like just plot, then the next question is, who would be an interesting person to see inside of that?

23:26And then the next question would be, why did I think that that person would be an interesting person? And what is wrong with this person? Something's wrong with them. Otherwise, they're fine. And I don't want to watch it. It's not drama. So what's wrong with them? And by asking what's wrong, you start to, you will get to a place of, okay, I understand. Like, it's a cool idea. Like, Shrek was a cool idea. The man who wrote the book, William Steele, is that right? He had a cool idea. But I think, you know, somebody like Ted Elliott comes along and he goes, all right. but the character, like, is someone who is so angry about losing his swamp.

24:15Why would anybody want the swamp in the first place? What is an ironic thing for an ogre to want? Love, right? And you very quickly will get to it is better to have loved and lost than not to have loved at all. Just like, boom, right there, right? But that's fine. But you'll get there through examination of what the fertile soil is around the plot that you're playing with or around the characters that are emerging. Going back to Craig's Finding Nemo chapter and sort of its overall framing of the question, we talk about structure, but central dramatic argument is also a theme. There are all these words that we throw around a lot about in screenwriting.

24:56And I feel like the jargon of it all is sometimes a barrier for people to understand what's really at the heart of this, which is that do you have interesting characters who are trying to do interesting things? And are you creating obstacles in their way that are compelling for the audience? I think a thing that Craig and I often feel frustration about with sort of dogmatic structure is that you're hitting these beats, but what is the experience of the audience? What is the audience feeling through this? How is our relationship with that character changing? How are we putting ourselves in their shoes, seeing the choices they make and have it feel like they are really driving the story?

25:32So many quote-unquote well-structured scripts are terrible because they're just not compelling. They're not interesting. And scene by scene, they're not working. So many of these books talk about these sort of templates for things and neglect like, oh no, you actually have to have interesting scenes that do compelling things where there's a structure within the scene where you have conflict within the scene. So in the book, we're just trying to tease out those things and make it clear that as a writer, you're thinking about all of this at the same time. You're both in the scene with the characters and sitting in a theater watching it on the big screen.

26:07And that's really the challenge of the craft that we've chosen is that you're kind of trying to do all this at once and forget that you actually know what's going to happen next. Yeah, along those same lines in the book, you talk about abandoning want versus need, which I am 100 % for. I think it's so distracting for people because they write characters who articulate their need in the first 10 pages. They're super aware. We as the audience are aware and we're like, great, I know what's going to happen. So it's not engaging. So again, it's that conversation of the different words we use for things.

26:44So I try to articulate that as what does the character learn? You know, what do they realize? Meg talks about that belief system. How is their belief system shattered? So what are ways that you talk about it that is more clear to you when you're writing specifically? Those all sound good. I mean, I just think about myself and you mentioned therapy earlier. So we don't go to therapy to announce the insights. Also, insights themselves. Wouldn't that be great though if we did? Here are all the things I know about myself. Right. And so just say them back to me. and as my therapist and Script Notes associate therapist Dennis Palumbo says, insight is the booby prize of therapy anyway because just because you realize something doesn't mean you're okay.