721 - Preparing to Direct (with Eva Victor)

16:52And that kind of is, looks this way and talks this way. And I don't want to be in charge like that because I'm not compelled to be him. And it's like, oh, I have my own way of doing that. And it took a bit of soul searching to realize, oh my God, I'm desperate to direct this. I know how it looks and feels. I need to hire genius. Geniuses around me to help me find the words for visual language. It was a lot of, I don't know, but I want to do it. I think I don't know is so awesome.

17:30Craig Mazin:Best words. You're allowed to make your first movie. Like you're allowed to be doing something for the first time because you have to, to do it. And I really fell in love with also, what was reassuring to me was the process of kind of collecting images and moments and pieces, almost like a little scrapbook of information was a very enjoyable kind of private process of building a world. And I felt as the work of director unfolded and I discovered what it was as I was doing it, each part of it felt like a miracle. And I was like, at one point in the edit, I was like, thank fucking God I like this.

18:14And it's, but I love it and I need it. So thank God, because otherwise, why would you ever, ever put yourself through this deeply intense experience that lasts forever?

18:27Craig Mazin:It lasts forever and every day lasts forever, but also is way too short. It's this nightmare of time that is never enough and is yet too much. And I just feel like you've put your finger on something incredibly important, which is we all have a sense, whether we've learned it from school or from culture, of the kind of person a director should be. And a kind of person a director should be is a man. and he is a big, he's Michael Bay. Basically in my mind, that's what happened. A big personality. It's Michael Bay and I am not Michael Bay. I will never be Michael Bay. I don't have whatever that is.

19:07Craig Mazin:That's not me. Or Ridley Scott. I'm also not that. Right. I am an ink-stained wretch, but ink-stained wretches are also wonderful directors and I love that you overcame the internalized image of what is it? Because I honestly think that's the thing that hurts us the most is we just start with a belief that we're not. Yeah. You know, trust me, I do have a, now it's a different issue, but that one I overcame enough to get through that. But I'm like, now it's, you know, the first, honestly, if we're going. Please. now because the writing of this film now my experience of it is nostalgia for a time when I I now remember it as flow I don't think it was like and I toiled over that script it was just I sent it when I was done with it but now I'm like oh yeah directing whatever but like writing you guys this needs oil this is like squeaky or something because it's been so long and now there's eyes on me.

20:13And I thought the most painful thing was not having - It's the worst thing. It's the worst. And then this is also like, yes. And I'm like, okay, now you're trying to kill me by celebrating my film?

20:25John August:How dare you say yes? Yeah. Well, just be honest, but also be nice. And I've made a film. Like there's so much, I only know how to make that film. So it's a mindfuck. Yes, it is. Can we rewind and talk about how you learned to make that film? Because that's what's so useful for so many of our listeners is that you have a script and you have people say like, we agree you should direct this. Now learn how to direct a film. What did you assign yourself? What did other people send you to look at? What's the process? You know what? Yes, this I would love to talk about. I first off was like, okay, you didn't go to film school.

21:06So there's a lot of fraudulence around not knowing things about film. And like, you know, lenses is like, I learned lenses will be good. Encyclopedic, ordering the books from film school, reading the books from film school research that was very dry. But I was like, let's just read this. Let's put post-its through it. Quickly realized like, okay, this is simply information that actually I need. It was kind of a process of constantly being like, okay, that fills that need. Now, what is missing still? And then it became, I need to watch a million movies. And I'd been watching movies, which is why I wrote a movie.

21:48But I was like, I need to watch films. And then as I'm watching them, not fall into watching them and instead watch them.

21:56John August:Yeah. Look at them, study them, pull them up. Yeah. See what they're doing. Exactly. So I became very into backwards shot listing films. So like a photo of every setup and blending them up and understanding when we return to the same set. It was like very mathematical. Like when are we returning to the same setup? How long are we on Laura Dern's face and certain women before we go to his face? Like why? And I became more aware of my taste. I was like, oh, I like the economy of staying, you know, of not doing until we have to. Like I became aware of what the film was needing from a visual standpoint.

22:39And so I was backward shot listing and would write out the shot list. And obviously it's not a complete picture because you never know what someone left out. But you get a sense of how cohesive vocabulary is built, you know, in a film. And Certain Women was a really helpful one for me because that is like a three-part. There was like chapters to that film and they're related. And so how do you make three women who are strangers become related? And then I created a shot list for my film, which instead of shot listing, because that was like felt random, I drew storyboards of like everything. And by the way, I had ample time.

23:22Like, man, fill your day with some shit to do because no one is knocking right now. And we were just taking our time and I had to, you know. And so it was drawing everything and every frame of the film. Like you could go through the storyboard and watch the film, which some of the shots are really what is in the storyboard. And then obviously some very important changes were made in collaboration with my DP, Mia, who, you know, making decisions for good reasons later on. But it was kind of like an instinctual storyboard. Like, what is the first thing that feels right? And then I shadowed my friend Jane Schoenbrunn on I Saw the TV Glow.

24:02I was like, oh, I'm ready. Like, I'm not ready, but I'm ready to start being ready. Like, I'd been on set as an actor, but on set as an actor, it's like, come in and do you need water? Do you need Diet Coke? And you're good for the day. I like, good job. I find acting very stressful in moments, especially when you're there for some time, but not the whole time, because, you know, it's so vulnerable, but it is a different experience of things are hidden from you to protect you, which I feel complicated about, but whatever. And some things are just not your job to know. And when you're on set, sitting behind a director with nothing to do on the set besides watch that person, you realize how different people advocate for their film and the different styles of how people advocate, but also how a film is built moment to moment in very, it's like non-miraculous.

25:00It's like by the end of the shoot, you have the pieces to go to the kitchen. Mixing metaphors is okay, I guess. That was my stuff. And then, you know, what you do is you take meetings with different heads of department and through they made a lookbook actually I'm going to make a lookbook in return and then you have a conversation with image and then you become specific so the cool thing about directing a film is you make decisions every day over time so the film is built over time and that was reassuring to me too because like at first you're alone but then you you know you bring people in and it's not just yours and that's a relief really to like okay you got that character thing fucking god like that's yours say it how you want to say it, you know?

25:40Craig Mazin:Well, I think that what you just said from start to finish is, I'm going to use the word probably because I want to be kind and charitable to film schools. It is probably worth more than four years of film school. What you just laid out there in part because you just belied the need for film school and you taught yourself what you needed to learn. And I love that. I went through the same thing because I didn't go to film school. And there's like a special technical film school for like directing, which you didn't go to and I didn't go to. But we're smart. And we read stuff quickly and learned things quickly.

26:27Craig Mazin:Because like the thing about lenses, I don't need a semester on lenses. I need like 30 minutes on lenses to get the basic breakdown of it. And then I need to be on set and go, can we try something longer? And the cinematographer's like, yeah, you know what, 50. Let's go. And then you're like, oh my God, that's the thing. And you start to get muscle memory. All of these things you laid out, the way you storyboarded, the way you broke things down. Reverse.

26:51John August:Reverse shot listing is so crucial.

26:53Craig Mazin:Shot listing is genius. That's genius.

26:55John August:So I want to just pause for a second because people may not quite know what we're describing. So you're watching a scene in a movie and you can figure out like, okay, well, we are a close up of her, a close up of her, but there's also a two shot and there seems to be a wider shot. And so you can basically figure out like, what were the actual shots they had on the day to make that thing? And so that was the plan going into it. But then you can also look at how do they actually use it? How did, when do they move into coverage? When do they stay wide? And all the information is right there. You can see it because it's in the film.

27:24John August:And that is so, so useful. And so part of this is reminding me of, I know people who watch Drag Race, You know, there's bedroom queens who basically, who do really good drag at home and they do, and they're on Instagram and stuff like that. But there's also, you know, obviously queens need to go out and actually like perform in front of other people. And that to me is the transition from you shot listing at home and then going to a set and seeing Jane direct on the set for her movie because you are watching like, oh, this is what it's actually really like. This is what the actual decisions look like in the field where it's not just, it can't be perfected on Instagram.

27:58John August:You're making choices moment by moment. and I'm sure you found this and Craig, I know you've encountered this. When you are on a set and it's not your movie, you're still watching the monitor and you have so many opinions. He's like, I can't believe we're moving on. Like, there's no way that's going to cut right. That's not what it is. And you recognize, no, but the director knows what they need. And they know like, okay, between these two things, they know what's important. Sometimes. Sometimes. Well, Craig's also a showrunner who honestly does have control of a film.

28:27Craig Mazin:Every now and again, they go, okay, we're moving on. And I go, no, we're not.

28:31John August:No, we're not. Declaring we're moving on is like, well, that's crazy. You can't really go back on moving on. Like, okay, you have to be sure.

28:42Craig Mazin:My thing I'm moving on is before I move on, I check with the tent. So who's in the tent? My script supervisor is in the tent and a producer is in the tent. My assistant is in the tent. People who have been watching this and I'm like, are we feeling okay about this? We're good? Do you think we got it? We got it? Yeah, I feel like we got it. Okay, moving on. But you're absolutely right. It's like an abandonment. And it's the worst part of directing is that you have to do more than you have time to do. So you have to move at such speed. But you do get better as you go. You were, I assume, a much better director a week.

29:20Craig Mazin:I don't know how many weeks you shot for. Let's say five, four? 24 days. Five weeks. Week five, you were a better director than week one. Almost certainly. Definitely. And you know what? You don't really self-reflect like that. But then Naomi was there the whole time. She was there the first day and she was there the second to last day. And she was like, bitch, what the hell? She was so proud of me. And I was like, you know why it's so true? And you know what? There was actually something else I wanted to add, which was a really pivotal part of my building the film two years was we did shoot two scenes from the film in a very small, like me and my DP and a group of my DP students at NYU.

29:59I came to shoot in an Airbnb in New York where we both lived, two scenes. And the prompt for my producers was like, who produced it, which was very, and it was like a practice setting. The prompt was two scenes that scare you. And so I did a scene that was like terrifying for me to direct because I didn't understand the mechanics of the movement of the people, like a lot of movement. And then the other one was as an actor, this scene in the bathtub where Agnes tells Lydia what happened. And I, you know, doing that, like...

30:30John August:There's a Sundance Labs thing. That's exactly what you do, yeah. Exactly. And I think, and then I worked with an editor, Kate Brokaw, who that was the moment when I was like, oh, like, you cannot cut from a wide to a wide. And like, oh man, like, what a masterclass in failure. And like, and I didn't really realize it was a test. But then there was this moment when they were like, what would you have changed about how you shot it? And that was the moment when they were like, okay, yeah, you understand what you would change. And also shadowing a set is very interesting because I shadowed a couple days on Billions, the show that I was on, just to watch those directors.

31:12And the budget of that shoot is one real particular thing. The vocabulary of the show is very, very heavily covered. Like we go over every shoulder, clean, like we do everything. And then Jane's film was like a particular budget that was like much larger than the budget I was going to have. But to see then, like to go backwards, to get a sense of scope and like how much can you get done in a day when you have more days, when you have less days, when you have an actor who can only be there three days. You know, like just to get a sense of a few different things to understand that things on your set will be particular to your set, you know?

31:55Craig Mazin:Well, I think you did a fantastic job. And it's funny. I was watching through and I was noticing, first of all, I have a particular, it's just taste. It's not that I don't like when people move cameras around. I just don't like it when cameras move around for no fucking reason. I like a camera to be still and I like the people to move around. and I loved how still it was so frequently. And I noted as I was watching how many scenes didn't really seem to need coverage. You kind of had a nice two shot and it worked that way and that's how the characters were interacting and it was great. And the scene that I was like, there's one that was probably tricky was when Decker and all of his grad students are around a table.

32:36Craig Mazin:Shooting around a table is a nightmare. And it's a nightmare that nobody, Like, I'd rather shoot a car chase than a scene with that many people around a table. That makes me feel better because I'm like, how do you fucking shoot a car chase? I would never break that in. It turns out it's because you can edit the shit out of car chases, you know, but like the eye lines around a table, that's nightmare stuff for me. And you did it really well. Thank you. There are a few mistakes in the film, continuity issues, and one of them is in that scene. I'll never say what it is. And okay, you just have to live with the fact that that happened.

33:21I think honestly, like, Billions prepared me for that. Because it was like, and also so much of understanding a scene is like, who is the scene about? And his special attention to Agnes. And so it's like, that helps. that helps, like, these boys can be in a two-shot, you know, like a three-shot, and they will be cut to highlight that this is less vulnerable than me.

33:45Craig Mazin:Then you've got to explain that to them. Sometimes actors don't like that. No, no, no. They're my close friends, so they kind of understand. It's a tricky one. You're like, no, no, I actually think that you guys come through better in this time.

33:59John August:So we can see the chemistry between the two of you. Yeah, you know. And when I'm in a movie, i.e. one other time besides this. Now there's no bullshit. I know I'm a character. If I'm next to someone who is on set every day and I'm here three days, I get it. I'm here to get you here. But it's interesting. It's interesting. Ava, you've perfectly set up a question we have from Anne. She writes, how should writers talk to actors? Specifically, do you tell them about their function within a script? Or do you just talk about the human being their character is? It's that balance between like, this is the character this is who you are the world is that and functionally like this is what I need you to do this is your job at this scene what's your instinct there how you talk to actors depends on the actor like I feel like I've now been in enough rooms where people don't know I'm an actor or they forget and so I hear people talking about actors be careful like I don't talk about actors like that like I really think what they do is psychotically intense and kind of like next level vulnerable.

35:04And when I wrote Sorry Baby, every character I wrote as if I got to play the character. So I was like, you're going to go. Like, you're going to say something I like. Like, I want the words to be good because what if I do it? And so it was very important to me that every character was, every actor was who they were in the film. Like, every, you know, obviously it was a part of every casting decision, but I'm like, the world is as important as the people who lead it. And I don't know, talking to actors, you get a sense of how an actor wants to be treated and pick up on energy enough to, you know, like some actors want to be handed off the role and that I love to do.

35:48I love to be like, you're the expert now, like go fly, you know more than me. Often actors who are writers too are like, I get who I am in this. It was interesting because Naomi is completely brilliant and we never rehearsed. Like she really wanted to just do it. And she's so connected. Like it was a very different process than like, for instance, Lucas Hedges, who, I mean, is brilliant as well, like equally brilliant. And we rehearsed for weeks beforehand. And it was amazing to work with actors who I was learning from who are more seasoned than me because I was like, oh, every actor is their soul, is how they do things.

36:27Like, it's great if an actor knows themselves well enough to say, this is how I like to be treated.

36:32John August:Well, let's go back the other way then. So like, you've cast an actor in a role. What is that conversation? Like, if you're the director, how do you have that conversation about like, let's talk about how you like to work? Like, any tips on how to have that conversation with an actor? Yeah, I mean, my thing was like always offering up meetings, calls, rehearsals, and going off of what, how they responded to that and what they needed for their process. and my process as an actor was, I worked with Rebecca Dealy, who is an amazing casting director and also an acting coach. And so my process was also about building my character privately, but I think offering everything that anyone could want and then respecting whatever they need.

37:16Craig Mazin:That's a great way of thinking about it because as much as I understand the impulse here that Anne has, which is tell me how to talk to actors or should we give actors this information? They're all different. Big surprise. They're all different. And one thing that one actor craves is the thing that another actor will throw an absolute fit over. And learning that is easier for some people. It's probably easier for you, Ava, than it is for me. Like I'm a little dense. It takes me some time sometimes to realize, oh, this person doesn't need that. And this person does need that. And just because this person needs it doesn't mean that person.

37:58Craig Mazin:So like, it takes me a little bit of time. I'm not, I'm not instant with it. And I sort of let them know when I start, I'm like, feel free to tell me, hey, this would help. This would not help. And then my attitude is, I'm here to get the best performance out of you. So help me help you. What do you need? there is i discovered a lot of value in acting across from your actor because it's like you're coming down from on high with a note and i don't really believe in like the idea of a note like anytime a director has given me a note that like i like the idea more that a director delivers like a secret or like an idea or something to play like just like what if she had this thought and then just you know like and to me there's kind of an immediate trust that happens if you're in a scene with someone of like i have to have your back and you have to have my back and when i'm acting with you i can't judge your performance like whatever you say and if i have an idea of what you could do differently i'm going to give you something different with which is oh that's interesting.

39:14Yeah, it's like condescending of like, I have an answer. It's more like, what if I said it like this? What happened to you?

39:18Craig Mazin:You direct them by altering your performance. But not in secret. No, but that's kind of amazing. And it's funny, I do wish they were like, because I want to be a good boy, you know? And really, more than anything, I just don't want, I don't want actors to feel like, I don't know, I don't want them walking away going, you know, he's just difficult today. I want to do right by them, but sometimes I don't. Sometimes it's impossible.

39:50John August:Well, Craig, you're trying to balance, like, you know, you want their performance to be fantastic and you also have to look at, like, the entire scene and the entire story, everything around it. And, like, that's the challenge is you're always balancing all these different competing desires. And I'm not acting. Yeah. Every day on set, you have to make a calculation of, like, okay, if I give this person this thing, then this is taken from this person if i go late this day to make sure i know i have it but does this actor need to feel like they have it that will afford me because it's their first day because this scene is vulnerable or whatever like that calculation of like okay we are going into overtime and because i haven't done that i can do that you know like constant calculations of like what is best for the film?

40:38And having to kill your darlings even of like, that person will not be happy with me tomorrow, but I won't go late tomorrow. You know, like it's a busy mind.

40:48Craig Mazin:Oh man, is it ever. But it's like your busy mind has made something absolutely beautiful. I mean, I really do appreciate it. It's such a, I know we have more questions, but this isn't a question. This is for me, it's just a statement. What I love so much about what you did was you made a movie about relationships and half of the movie, and I'm not, I'm just guessing, but half of the movie by weight is you alone. And it's still about relationships. It's always, there's always a ghost in the room with you. It's incredible how dialed in you are to the only thing I care about in stories, which is relationships.

41:26Craig Mazin:And so just so well done. just so well done. Thank you so much. You know, there's so many ghosts that are on the cutting room floor that like in the script, I was like, yes, that is my favorite thing in the script that just once, you know, once the film starts to be coming.

41:47John August:It tells you what it wants to be. I was looking through the script yesterday and I noticed like, oh, these are whole scenes that are in the movie. And basically what you cut were things that like broke out of your POV. Like the script had scenes that did not have you driving the scene. And then those scenes, they didn't last in the movie. And that's not surprising. And I'm sure they were delightful. I'm sure they're really funny. But the things that were there, they weren't absolutely necessary and therefore they fall out. So there was, you had a first scene at a sandwich shop. You had two guys talking about paninis.

42:17John August:You had an Agnes and Natasha scene. You had two jurors talking. They were all funny and great. And I can totally imagine why they were in the script. And I can completely see why they weren't in the finished movie. and that's also directing. You know, if you had told me we were cutting those scenes, I would have been like, let's just not fucking shit.

42:34Craig Mazin:That's, you know, that's the fun part. You don't know. It's crazy. And it makes me so relieved that we shot more than we needed. I mean, I know obviously their sacrifices have to be made when you have more pages, you know, like it just, it's everything. But honestly, strategically, those scenes for me, like the way I felt about them in the script were like, I am deliberately giving my audience intermissions energetically and stuff. But then it's like, right, an intermission makes tension fall through the floor. So why would you ever do that? But I was like, I didn't understand that they would change the pace of the film in a way and would be so jarring that whatever kind of like tonal shifting I was trying to do that kept people locked in, there was a jolt that was too jolty and would make no one trust me with the other transitions of tone.

43:28Yes, people lose confidence.

43:29John August:Absolutely. Well, I'm really happy that the script you're putting out there shows the scenes in there because it's such a good lesson for like, you can see like, oh, this is the shape of a movie before films and that this is the shape of a film afterwards. And you discover things along the way. My question is, how early did you know those scenes were dropping out? Was it after the first assembly? Were like, ugh. Or did it take a while to figure out that those were things that weren't helping you out? I mean I went through like a re the mental intensity of the shooting the film mainly happened in the edit where I was finally seeing myself on screen and the energy of the film wasn't diluted by you know cut and then you said you know like you shoot a piece at a time and when you watch it you're like oh my god this is like a sad movie and that really I was surprised somehow that it was a sad movie and I had to watch it like it was and you know it took a second I really fought for I really fought for the sandwich scenes but the second that for instance there was like a first scene with John Carroll Lynch and then there's like an attack scene in the sand and the second first scene the second second second second second scene becomes completely different yeah and what that scene did in the film was it gave us too much information about Agnes being mentally unwell that it like it's math it's constant calibration constant well yes what if we try it's like puzzle making and you just have to try everything because you are going to get basically questioned by everybody on why each thing and you have to you you can only choose it if you know what it

45:06Craig Mazin:you have to be able to justify it everything does impact everything so it's like making a jigsaw puzzle. But when you put one piece down, the colors change on the other pieces. It's a really weird thing to do. And it is hard to say to a great actor like, oh, by the way, we left one of your... People have left scenes with Meryl Streep on the cutting room floor. You just have to do it sometimes because you find what you needed and everything was a theory. You know, the fact that Your theory worked out like 98 % of the time is insane. It's miraculous. Right. Really wonderful actors, you know, they know that the movie working makes their scenes work.

45:50Like, and the Natasha scene that got cut, like when I like told Kelly who plays Natasha, we cut this one scene and she was like, yeah, that makes sense. It was like kind of the same scene as a scene before. I was like, like, hopefully.

46:03John August:That would have been nice to know. But I was just like, oh yeah, people get it. People understand that like what that does for something else is more, John is able to be proud of the film because of how his character experienced as like a breath of fresh air, completely new energy 75 % of the way through the film. Like there's real power in that. So yeah, it's nice when actors get why. But I wish every script that you could read was a shooting script. Like, my God, would that be, that is the one cool thing about when you get to know people. There's a lot of cool things about getting to know people who do this.

46:41But one of them is like, you can make them send you shooting scripts instead of.

46:46John August:Sanitized, yeah. I'm just like, this is where, this is like a key to the kingdom of like, which I feel like should be more possible. Yes, I agree with you.

46:59Craig Mazin:And it's also comforting to see how a great movie had a shooting script that was 90 % correct. Yeah. Yes. So, you know.

47:14John August:So I think we've actually achieved our goal and our thesis, which is basically that it's not brilliance. It's actually mostly just hard work. And you can't sort of distinguish and differentiate between the two of them. And like this conversation about like, oh, no, it was just really hard work. and yes, inspiration and incredibly talented people, but also hard work and constant questioning of, wait, am I actually doing this right? And so, Ava, thank you so much for this education. I have a question for you guys. You have both had psychotically successful things. I am curious about your return to the page.

47:51And maybe this isn't your experience, but I am - Scared. protecting that well beyond scared beyond scared no just i think reconciling with the fact that each process is humblingly different than another process and work in a new way that you have to relearn but coming off of attention attention is the poison so you can't

48:23Craig Mazin:In my experience, when attention is as focused and relentless as it is on something like you and your movie during award season, it is poison in your veins. It's a beautiful thing, of course. It's a sign that people connected and loved what you did. But attention causes pain. And you need to be alone to write. I really believe that. I don't think you can write in a room with glass windows and everybody staring at you. You need a little time. Yeah. You need a little time to flesh it out. I call it going down the well. That's what Bella Ramsey and I call it, going down the well. You're going to go down the well, and you're going to be at the bottom of a well for a bit.

49:08Craig Mazin:And people are going to wonder, why are you at the bottom of a well? You should be on top of the world. And you're like, I'm crying a lot. And they don't understand, but that's okay. and then the attention, this is the best part. Goes away. I mean, oh my God. You think it won't because they just can't take their eyes off you and then it's gone. And then you're like, oh, thank God. And then of course, later you're like, oh no, it's going to come back. And that's a different dread. But my advice is give yourself a little bit of time. Yeah, you know, as you're saying, thank you for saying that. And as you're saying that, you know, there was this journey.

49:48I was like making these videos. It was like daily attention on the videos and like the turnaround was so psychotic. DMs from people that would break my mind. And what had to happen was I stopped. I had to like cold turkey, run away for a few years and decide like, who am I? What is going on? What do I want to write? What do I care about? And it's like, oh my God, I totally did that. And I needed so much silence. And hearing you say that, I'm like, oh, shit. I actually know about that. And that's amazing. But it's a different thing. But it is this crazy.

50:30John August:I would also say that I suspect your curiosity will overcome your fear at a certain point. Because your curiosity is, I'm sure, driving you through a lot. There's things you want to explore and do. and just the same way you were intentional about thinking about how you want to direct, you're going to be intentional about thinking about, what do I want to do now? What is interesting to me? What is a thing I want to tackle? And you'll find a clever way to do it. And it could be a new original story or it could be an adaptation of something that you're always like, oh, I know how to do this thing.

50:57John August:Why does this thing not exist in the world? And then you will make that thing and it's going to be awesome. Isn't that crazy? Thank you so much. You guys are so nice. Like always time with everything. Yeah.

51:08Craig Mazin:It's really annoying. It's annoying. And we have no problem accepting that for our physical selves. No problem at all. You cut yourself as a kid, it hurts, and then it scabs up, and then scab is itchy, and then it goes away, and then it's sort of pink and weird, and then it's okay, and then it's like it never happened, and it's just time. And we are so frustrated that our emotional pain takes time. And, you know, that's what Dennis Palumbo, who's a therapist that I went to for many years, and he came on our show and talked on our show. He would often say to me, I would say like, when does this stop?

51:48And he would say, tincture of time. I'm like,

51:54Craig Mazin:shit. But also good. Tincture of time. Yeah. So a little bit of time. You're gonna be fine. You're gonna be more than fine. You're gonna be great. Thank you.

52:04John August:Let's do our one cool things. I have a book that I'm reading that I really love that I want people to read. It's called Girl on Girl, How Pop Culture Churned a Generation of Women Against Themselves. It's by Sophie Gilbert. It's really good. I think you'd both like this a lot. And it goes back to some earlier times and sort of the cycles of sort of like feminism, post-feminism, and to sort of this churn that kind of happens. Women, particularly young women, sort of get co-opted into this system of beliefs and any attempt to form an identity for themselves gets sort of marketed back towards them.

52:38John August:It's really smartly done. Here's from her opening chapter, which is sort of her thesis. She says she wanted to understand how a generation of young women came to believe that sex was our currency, our objectification was empowering, and that we were a joke. Why were we so easily persuaded of our own inadequacy? Who was setting the agenda? And I just loved her framing on all this because it just does feel like you have girl power and then it becomes like a thing that is sold back to women that they can buy and purchase. And so it's about culture. It's capitalism. It's also really about porn, which I hadn't thought so much about, but the degree to which porn is always on the edges of culture and warping things in a weird way.

53:21John August:So I thought it was just a great book. So Sophie Gilbert's Girl on Girl. It's a book out from last year, but I'm just now reading it. That is amazing. Craig, what do you got? My one cool thing is the Vancouver Sky train.

53:36Craig Mazin:I, okay, I love riding a train, but like I'm a New York boy. I love the subway there. And the subway goes pretty much everywhere. And I love it. And Vancouver is not New York. It's a much, much, much smaller city. And it doesn't have a subway. It's got this like little, you know, kind of monorail thing. And I mean, I just never took it. I never got on it. I was just like, it's a train. But the studio complex where we are based and where all of our stages are is just walking. It's like a two-minute walk from a SkyTrain station. And I was like, should I take a train? I am so obsessed with riding the SkyTrain.

54:17Craig Mazin:It is so much better than driving. It's so much better. It is my mood, driving to work. I get in my car and I'm already angry that I'm driving. and then my blood pressure and rage accelerate so that when I finally arrive at work, I am already just at a nine of piss. And then I have to go to meetings. And the SkyTrain is like, ah, and it's clean. There's like a train that comes every three minutes. So in the subway in New York, you're like, oh, I just missed it. It's going to be 12, which is really 15. Or there's a stoppage. This thing never stops. Three minutes, just. And it's lovely. So, I mean, I'm not saying anything that a lot of Vancouverites don't know, but if you do live in Vancouver and you haven't taken the SkyTrain, you're wondering, fantastic way to get around.

55:12Craig Mazin:Love it. They're going to be so happy you said that.

55:16John August:I mean, I should get money. Absolutely. Ava Victor, do you have something to recommend to our listeners? Yes. Well, I was going to do this mini Nutella that I got in Spain today. Oh. Instead of that, I have decided to shift my one, so this is me sneaking in two things. There is a website called Rainymood.com. And if you go to Rainymood.com, you can listen to rain sounds and it can be a tab open on your computer while you do other things. And I find it incredibly relaxing. You can also listen to music while you listen to rainy sounds, which I think is really beautiful. So rain has always been a comfort to me and consider checking it out.

55:56Craig Mazin:is the website has rain. It's like you're looking through a window that has rain coming down. It's a beautiful website. Like, this is really nice. I mean, the Skytrain kind of is its own vibe, which like, also it's Vancouver. It's always a rainy mood. Like, this is shocking right now. Like, what's going on behind me, the fact that it's not raining. But I do, when I go to sleep, my iPad is doing white noise, but it's like technically brown noise. Yeah. Because I like the, because I'm a baby still. I'm just an old baby. Although the older I get, the closer I return to looking like an actual baby.

56:37Craig Mazin:Yeah. Soon the diapers will come. But this actually seems like something that might be nice for when I'm writing. Because I don't like specific noises, but rain is comforting like that. It's lovely. Love it. Yeah, no word. No words. Love it. Love it.

56:54John August:Great. Awesome. Thank you so much. That is our show for this week. Script Notes is produced by Drew Marquardt and edited by Matthew Cilelli. I don't believe it. Our outro this week is by Nick Moore. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to ask at johnaugust.com. That is also the place where you can send questions like the ones we answered today. You'll find transcripts at johnaugust.com along with our sign-up for our weekly newsletter called Interesting, which has lots of links to things about writing. The Script Notes book is available wherever you buy books. Ava Victor has hers with her in Spain.

57:21John August:You'll find us on Instagram at Script Notes Podcast. You'll find clips and other helpful video on our YouTube. Just search for script notes and give us a follow. We have t-shirts and hoodies and drink wear. You'll find us at Cotton Bureau. You'll find the show notes with links to all the things we talked about today. In the email you get each week as a premium subscriber. Thank you to all our premium subscribers. You make it possible for us to do this each and every week. You can sign up.

57:43Craig Mazin:Ava Victor is a premium subscriber. We've been siphoning five bucks a month out of her pocket for a long time. I mean, five is a fucking steal. You guys are seriously getting more than$5 a month, but I love it. Thank you so much. Maybe just Venmo then? Yeah, absolutely. You're like a big filmmaker now. I don't know.

58:04John August:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You can sign up and become a premium member at scriptnets.net where you get all those back episodes and bonus segments like the one we're about to record on short-form video versus directing feature films. Ava Vector, congratulations on your directing of your feature film, your writing of it, your starring in it, all the attention for it. which is wonderful, but will also pass and then allow you to do the thing after that next. It was so great having you on the show. We tried for a while and I'm glad it finally happened. I am so happy. This is such a milestone for me in a way that's beyond.

58:37So thank you. Thank you, Ava.

58:53Thank you.