In short
Ending a TV series (Hacks) and the creative/practical work of “wrapping it up,” plus two reader script critiques in the Three-Page Challenge.
Guests (backgrounds)
Paul W. Downs and Lucia Aniello, married co-creators and showrunners of Hacks. They’ve also worked on Broad City, Rough Night, and Time Traveling Bong (a Comedy Central limited series made quickly for about 12 days). John August hosts Script Notes.
Key claims
Reputation is largely uncontrollable and shaped by both off-screen behavior and the “messaging” of the work; on-set tone (e.g., Jean Smart as “number one on the call sheet”) can change how actors behave. For Hacks, they planned the final-season arc around Deborah’s professional goal of selling out MSG, but the finale ultimately reframes the “win” as the creation process. They knew the series would end by around season 2/3, with season 5 already “grieving” the goodbye. Production ran in tight cycles (often ~48 hours between wrapping and starting the next writer’s room; editing on weekends).
Notable examples
Mirroring visual motifs (e.g., sticks-to-handheld coverage in key scenes), filming exteriors in New York/Las Vegas/Paris while keeping most interiors in LA, and the challenge of inserts like tiny keychains/text on screen. Script critiques: Dying to Love You (rapid “Final Destination”-style deaths, tonal shift, unclear fantasy/vision cues, keychain insert readability) and You’re Dead to Me (NPR Marketplace recording, Scooby-Doo ringtone gag, confusion about brother identification, text-message formatting).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroducing the Guests
0:45 to 1:44
Hosts introduce the creators of 'Hacks' and discuss their previous work.
“And I was looking through and I've seen, I think, everything you've done, which is wild.”
Discussing Reputation in the Industry
1:44 to 3:06
Exploration of reputation and its impact on the creative process.
“But first, I want to talk about reputation.”
The Dual Nature of Reputation
3:06 to 5:20
A deep dive into how reputation influences both personal and professional life.
“Well, I want to talk about reputation because it's one of those things that is simultaneously incredibly important, but not a thing you can really control.”
Creating a Positive Work Environment
5:20 to 7:16
Discussion on the importance of a supportive set for creative collaboration.
“because in our work, obviously, there is the reputation off screen and also then what you're putting out into the world.”
Navigating Projects and Reputation
7:16 to 9:45
Insights on how reputation affects project choices and creative direction.
“and the alchemy of that can sometimes impact one's behavior and then reputation, you know?”
Final Season Insights
9:45 to 13:20
Hosts discuss decisions leading to the final season of 'Hacks'.
“I think, you know, reputation is linked to legacy.”
Writing Process for the Last Season
13:20 to 14:02
Exploration of the writing process behind the final episodes of 'Hacks'.
“So let's talk about the writing process behind this.”
Character Goals and Story Arcs
14:02 to 14:53
Explore the ultimate goals for characters and how they shape the narrative.
“And so we did know we wanted her to have this goal of an MSG or what ended up being MSG.”
Directing and Production Challenges
14:54 to 15:41
Discuss the logistics of directing episodes and the challenges of scheduling.
“20 weeks by week 16 or 17, we're starting prep.”
Script Development and Finale Writing
15:42 to 16:39
Learn about the challenges of writing scripts, particularly for a series finale.
“So practically, so what a block looks like.”
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Visual Storytelling Techniques
16:40 to 18:04
Discover the use of visual motifs and innovative filming techniques in storytelling.
“The hardest thing to write was the finale.”
Emotional Aspects of Final Seasons
18:05 to 21:12
Understand the emotional weight of wrapping up a series and saying goodbye.
“And we did the same in the finale when Debra is telling Ava that she's sick and that she wants to go to Paris to, spoiler alert, end her life.”
Season Transitions and Production Timelines
21:13 to 22:39
Examine the quick turnaround between seasons and how it affects production.
“She's a theater actress who is really hard to break, and she broke the most she's ever broken.”
Editing Process During Production
22:40 to 24:20
Learn about the continuous editing process during filming and its benefits.
“We usually were doing, let's say, promotion for a season that was still airing and then starting the writer's room for the next season.”
Wrap-Up and Post-Production Dynamics
24:21 to 25:37
Explore the slow transition of the crew and the emotional aspect of post-production.
“if there's something that we haven't shot yet and we know this could use some clarification, we're actually going to be shooting that scene.”
Memories of Feature Films and Their Impact
25:38 to 28:00
Reflect on the experiences of making feature films and their lasting impressions.
“the other day about bloopers and the servers.”
Nostalgia for Comedy Central
28:00 to 29:20
Discussion about the appeal and legacy of Comedy Central's original content.
“I mean, we bang the drum of like, you know, where is the, what is the new Comedy Central?”
Rights and Independent Films
29:20 to 30:29
Exploration of acquiring rights back to films and personal experiences.
“So for folks who are new to the podcast, every so often we invite listeners to send in the first three pages of their feature, their pilot, and we talk about them on the air.”
Three-Page Challenge Introduction
30:29 to 31:25
Introduction to the segment where they review listener-submitted scripts.
“Aisha also seems to be the sister of Charlie's last boyfriend, Trey, the one that fell off the cliff.”
Dying to Love You: Script Analysis
31:25 to 33:52
Detailed discussion and critique of the script 'Dying to Love You'.
“Let's talk about what we experienced over the course of these three pages.”
Inserts and Visuals in Scripts
33:52 to 36:40
Debate on the effectiveness of visual inserts in screenplays and their challenges.
“Like Michael Johnson in I Die For You, it was like, I guess I was like, is this a real person?”
You're Dead to Me: Script Overview
36:40 to 37:54
Introduction and synopsis of the script 'You're Dead to Me'.
“I'm like, you could shoot it, but you just, if there's any way to get around it, just don't do it.”
Dialogue and Character Relationships
37:54 to 42:00
Analysis of dialogue effectiveness and character relationships in 'You're Dead to Me'.
“This is You're Dead to Me by Jazz Garawal.”
Character Names and Their Impact
42:00 to 43:35
Exploration of how character names influence perception and dialogue in scripts.
“So I think when she gives you the line reading, Paul.”
Monster Law Synopsis and Initial Thoughts
43:36 to 45:55
Discussion of the script 'Monster Law' including its synopsis and initial impressions.
“and then I want to have a little meta discussion about this process.”
Scene Descriptions and Tone Setting
45:56 to 47:56
Analyzing the effectiveness of scene descriptions in setting tone and visual storytelling.
“I did think that the opening of this really gave me tone.”
Character Introductions and Writing Style
47:57 to 50:28
Critique of character introductions in scripts and the importance of concise writing.
“So it just felt really weird that we're establishing that it's raining and it doesn't actually matter for where we're at or why there's a big football game happening.”
Staffing and Script Selection Criteria
50:29 to 52:34
Discussion on the criteria for selecting scripts when staffing a writing room.
“And that's also okay, because if you feel something is voicey and has a point of view and is compelling, you think, okay, well, that person is good at story.”
Chemistry and Collaboration in Writing Teams
52:35 to 54:32
Insights into the importance of chemistry and collaboration in selecting writers.
“but also could kind of, you know, help in other ways in the room.”
Promotion of Writer's Assistants to Writers
54:33 to 56:00
Discussion on how writer's assistants can transition into writing roles within a show.
“And that is the way that we, and sometimes they say no.”
Promoting Writers from Within
56:00 to 1:02:20
Learn how writer's assistants can transition to writers on the show.
“those are the kinds of people we'd like to collaborate with in any way.”
Collaboration Techniques in Writing
1:02:20 to 1:05:26
Discover the collaborative writing process and techniques used by the hosts.
“What is it that you've learned over the course of years about how you guys work together?”
The Importance of Personal Relationships
1:05:26 to 1:07:16
Understand why personal relationships matter in a writing team for better output.
“And then I think that it's just such a positive cycle.”
Reflections on Vacation and Creativity
1:07:16 to 1:10:00
Explore the significance of taking breaks and vacations for creative rejuvenation.
“So my One Cool Thing is a book I'm reading right now by Kate Hall called You Can Just Do Things.”
The Importance of Pausing
1:10:00 to 1:10:19
Learn why taking breaks and recharging is essential for creativity.
“fantastically feeding in terms of creativity, but also you don't even have to do that.”
Insights from Reading Chocolat
1:10:20 to 1:11:23
Discover the differences between the book and movie 'Chocolat' and its themes.
“since I've seen the movie that I don't totally remember, but it really, it changes perspective between the shopkeeper woman and this priest, this angry priest who was kind of almost Gollum-like.”
Engaging in Local Elections
1:11:24 to 1:12:04
Understand the significance of participating in local elections and supporting winnable races.
“And so I'm assuming that they are tracking zillions of below-the-radar races and figuring out sort of where to maximize the dollars.”
The Role of Research in Elections
1:12:05 to 1:13:15
Learn about the importance of research for understanding local races and candidates.
“talking about a very small local race in Alabama.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:02John August:Hello and welcome. My name is John August. This is episode 747 of Script Notes. It's a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters. Often on this podcast, we are talking about how projects began. Today on the show, let's talk about how things end. We're joined by two other creators and showrunners behind one of my very favorite TV shows, Hacks, to look at the creative and practical considerations when it comes to wrapping up that series. Then it's time for a new round of the three-page challenge where we look at the first three pages in your script and give our honest feedback.
0:32John August:In this case, from two writers who often have to read scripts to cast and for staffing on their shows. Let's welcome these guests. Paul W. Downs, Lucia and Yellow are the married co-creators of Hacks and many other things. And I was looking through and I've seen, I think, everything you've done, which is wild. So Broad City, Rough Night, Time Traveling Bong. I've seen Time Traveling Bong. You're a bong head. I'm a bong head. Oh, Ilana's going to be so happy. I literally tell her every time I meet someone who's seen it or even knows of it. I'm like, I give her a text. Absolutely. I could have just paid you the$5 myself.
1:07John August:I know the economics of those kinds of movies. It's great to finally meet you. Likewise. Thank you so much. Long time listeners. We really are. Long, long time. We've had Jen Statsky on the show several times talking about Hacks. And so it feels really nice to sort of wrap up the Hacks experience with the two of you. So in our bonus segment for premium members, I also want to talk about cameos because we were discussing around the office. There feels like there's this network of people who cameo in different people's projects, which is great. But also what are the considerations for asking for a cameo, getting a cameo, doing a cameo, stuff that's essentially free.
1:41John August:So I want to talk about cameos in our bonus segment. Right. But first, I want to talk about reputation. Uh-oh, not mine. Please not mine. But I want to give a very specific example. So it is summer in 2022. And we were on the East Coast looking at colleges for my daughter because she's applying to colleges. And we're in Amherst, Massachusetts. And so I need to go get my hair cut. So I go to the local barber. I go to Sandy's Barbershop. And the barber asks, so what do you do? I say, I'm a screenwriter. He's like, oh, we got a screenwriter here. And they're like, oh, you must know Lucia Anielo because she's like a big deal in Hollywood.
2:17John August:Oh, my God. The thing is I did know because I'd seen all of your things. And so I'd recognized your name and I'd never met her. But it's like, oh, she's fantastic. And they're like, damn right, she's fantastic. Oh my God. So the barbers of Amherst, Massachusetts are very proud of you. Shout out Amherst Mass. Shout out Western Mass, the Pioneer Valley. I am, yes, I'm from Hadley, Massachusetts. And my parents own restaurants in the area. And because of that, like my parents were very much like people in town, you know, in Amherst. I got that sense that they were, yeah. Yeah. And so I think as a result, there's like a community there of people.
2:52They don't live there anymore, but there's a community of people who have my back and are dropping my name. And I appreciate you and I love you. And hello, Claire and Mara, because much like you, they listen to everything we record. So they will be hearing this and be very excited.
3:06John August:Well, I want to talk about reputation because it's one of those things that is simultaneously incredibly important, but not a thing you can really control. You can try to control it, but it's fundamentally owned by other people. Right. And I think it plays an important role in hacks because Debra Vance is so concerned about her reputation. She's trying to manage it, but it's sort of outdated her. Like it doesn't actually match the real person. And then of course, Ava comes in and just like one bad tweet has ruined her reputation. So a reputation can be a liability or a huge asset. So I'd love to dig into reputation a bit.
3:39John August:So I knew of you, Lucia, just I'd known your work and so your reputation was really good. And so it's not surprising that the barbers of Amber's Best Massachusetts knew it too. But when were you first aware of a reputation or sort of trying to make sure the work you were doing represented who you wanted to be? Yeah, I think it's really interesting because there's two versions, right? There's the person that you actually are interacting with, with crew and executives and people who watch your work. There's that world, but there's also the work itself and the kind of messaging you're putting out in the world.
4:12And I think we'd like to think that the work that we do is a pretty cohesive in some ways, even though some are about a time traveling bong and others are about a 70 something year old stand up. I still think that there is kind of a messaging behind all of it that just feels like we're commenting on culture and what is good about culture and what's not good about culture and through characters and stories. But then, yeah, the person that you are, you know, actually moving through the world. I think it's hard because, you know, when you're making things, sometimes, of course, when I have the highest respect for your collaborators and everything, but I also have to be completely honest.
4:50Like, I'm sure that there's some people out there who like maybe some background person and saw me be frustrated in some moment and maybe that's their perception of me. No. Well, you never know, but you know what I mean? I think, but I think it's like, okay, to kind of acknowledge the idea that like, you want to have a good reputation, but that's just the ripple effect of who you actually are day to day. And you know, hey, we all go to therapy and try to be the best people we can be. But, you know, it's something that I think we all strive to be, that we strive to be good about. I mean, it's interesting we're talking about reputation because in our work, obviously, there is the reputation off screen and also then what you're putting out into the world.
5:27And it's interesting that as we're talking about it, it's occurring to me that a lot of the work that we've done is very, very personal. And it is sort of an extension of what we hope our reputations will be. I mean, with Broad City, Abby and Alana played Abby and Alana. Obviously, they were fictionalized versions of themselves, And actually my character, I played Trey, the trainer at Solstice, very different than my actual personality. That said, I do think like the work is, it is a representation of our values and our beliefs and a lot of the things that we want to put out into the world. And so it's interesting that the work is very tied to what your reputation or the reputation you hope you have.
6:03But like you say, you can't really control it.
6:05John August:I think it's important that you're finding two different ways. It's the work you're putting out in the world. So it's what anybody from a distance can see. But as you know, as you're looking to collaborate with somebody, it's like the reputation is really what is the whispers about the person you're calling up to ask, like, what is it really like to work with the person? And that's where you find out that some people who have great work out there are actually just monsters or they're not as good as they're supposed to be. Or that movie, like they didn't really kind of direct it. It was taken away from them.
6:33John August:All those things are factors. Right. And it's challenging because you do this for other people and you're always mindful, like, are people doing that for me too? Like, what is my reputation? Totally. I mean, yeah, it is something we think about because we're called all the time about actors or writers or people that we've collaborated with and what it's like to work with them. You know, Oprah says, she got this from Maya Angelou, that when someone tells you who they are the first time, believe them, right? But that said, we've also heard things in the past about actors that might have been tricky to work with.
7:05And we've said, we really feel like they're exactly right for this part. We're still going to work with them. Yeah. And we've found them to be delightful. So sometimes I think the reputation is very site-specific. It depends on a lot of factors, you know? I mean, making something obviously takes a whole community of people, and the alchemy of that can sometimes impact one's behavior and then reputation, you know? So, I don't know, sometimes I think reputation, you do have to experience it, and you have to give people space to be better behaved on your set, you know? Well, I believe that, and I think that's actually very true, and we do very consciously, and actually Jean Smart, who puts up our events, is very helpful in this because she's number one on the call sheet.
7:40And so that really sets a tone. But we really try to make people feel comfortable and welcome on our set. And we really do have a very, very lovely set. And I do think that immediately makes maybe some tricky actors, they don't put their... Their claws aren't out. The claws aren't out. The fangs are hidden. And I think that those people who maybe people have said have a tricky reputation, it feels like if you kind of just make them feel comfortable and confident that you're all of a sudden getting a completely different person. And that person can then be funnier because they feel more comfortable and confident.
8:13As Lucia said, often the tone is set by the number one in your call sheet or the showrunners of the show. We have heard that. And so the reason I reiterate that is because I don't want to seem self-aggrandizing, but we have heard from actors like, I was different on your set. Like I felt different on your set. Your set was a different vibe than other sets, which we want it to be fun because it is a comedy. Ultimately, it's a show about comedy. So we really want people to feel comfortable and confident to try things and discover things and make it feel as alive as it can.
8:42John August:Yeah. So it is a conscious thing that we all try hard to do. In terms of making choices about the work you do, are you ever worried about your reputation? Like not taking a project because it doesn't fit. Brand sounds terrible, but it doesn't feel like a thing I would want to do. I don't want to be associated with that person, with that project, with that idea. You know, I think the truth is, is there's so little material out there that we, I don't want to say connect to, but so much of it is self-generated that we don't really encounter that too, too much. As an actor, I feel that a little bit more.
9:21I would say that. It's different for you. Well, if I do that, it's similar to the character I did on Broad City and it's like, I don't want to be typecast in that way. So I think maybe more as an actor, but as writers and producers, I feel like it is all about the idea. And if we spark to it, we spark to it. I don't think we're too conscientious about the brand. You know, I think it's more about what is the thing and what is it adding to the world? Because I think as we started talking about with reputation, I think, you know, reputation is linked to legacy. And I think we're a little bit in a way like Debra Vance.
9:53We're always thinking about what we leave behind. So I don't think it's as much about the brand, the style, the thing as it is about just what the story is that we're putting into the world.
10:04John August:Yeah. One of the challenges is that you can be thinking like, I have an opinion about a thing, but I sort of want to say my opinion about a thing because it's just like, it's going to be a whole cycle of dealing with people's reaction to that thing. Totally, yeah. One of the luxuries of writing a show is that you can put some of those thoughts in other characters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. And get them out that way. I think playwrights are often sort of doing that, just like they can be the most hateful versions of themselves and those characters on stage. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I think it's so funny because with Debra and Ava, they're obviously very differing viewpoints about the world.
10:36And there are seeds of truth to both. You know, we try to come at them with a lot of compassion in terms of the way that we write their points of view. But also, we share points of view with one or the other, depending on what it is. So it is interesting that we get to do that. We get to have, you know... Our cake and eat it too. Yeah, we get to air our grievances with the world or not, you know.
10:56John August:Well, let's talk about this final season. and I loved it, but I was also really curious about when did you know practically and creatively that this was going to be the final season and what were some decisions going into it? So when did you know that that was going to be the end? I think we knew about the length of seasons a little bit before the midway point. We had pitched sort of the biggest tent poles of the series. I remember Jen came on the show and she sort of talked through what that was going to be. I don't know if she's told you this story, but I had a prediction for what was going to happen in one season and I had it, I mailed her.
11:27John August:That letter. I know. That letter, yes. All right. I know. No, we were so excited about it. I know. I really wanted to open it early, and she wouldn't. That's true. I was like, open it. What if there's a good idea? What if we have to change it? And she was like, guys, no. I tell you what, her morals are really strong. Yeah. Because that's her reputation as a woman of strong principles. And she is. She is. That should be her reputation. She believes in justice. Yes. Very much. And she is also a Massachusetts girl. And so she gets lit up by injustice. Yes. We call her the Boston Bean. Yeah, Boston Bean's coming out.
11:58She's fighting for what's right. So we knew the sort of, she's going to go on the road. She's going to get a late night show. She's not going to have that the whole time. It's not going to be Larry Sanders. She's going to eventually leave that. And we pitched the final episode where she wants to call her own light. So we knew a lot of those things. And I think it was around season two that we were like, this feels like five seasons. We feel like next season, she's going to be striving to get the chair for late night. Season four is probably what we'll explore as the late night chapter of the story.
12:25John August:Finally getting what you wanted. Exactly. So I think we knew it around season two that we hoped it would be five seasons. We didn't know if we would ever get it. But, you know, sort of the runway, the amount of story that it took to get to those milestones was in flux until probably season two or three. Yeah, the beginning of season five, we were really already grieving the end. So we're like, what if season five is two, six episodes, you know what I mean? Like we were trying to stretch it out, but in the end we were like, yeah, we were asked a lot like, is this the final season? And we didn't want to say that because even though we knew what the end would be, we were like, could we make it?
12:59Could we do the Breaking Bad thing? Do you like two shorter ones? Because we've loved making the show and we feel so lucky to have made a five-season comedy that even though we were so lucky to end it on our own terms, it felt also a little bit crazy to be like, we're going to say goodbye before we're being asked to. It feels honestly like breaking up with a soulmate. And you're like, there will be others, but this was so special. And so it's been really hard for us.
13:23John August:So let's talk about the writing process behind this. So when you went into the room knowing this was going to be the final season, what did the whiteboard look like? It sounds like you knew what that last episode was, but you didn't necessarily know what the beats were going before then. So talk to me about that. We knew that we wanted to have her strive towards something, but that thing that she would get would then kind of be, it's not a MacGuffin exactly, but it would be something where she realized, she thinks that the professional goal is the thing, But then by the very, very end, she realized the goal wasn't the thing.
13:55It was the creation. It was the getting there. It was the, as she says in season one, the scratch and the claw is the fun part. And so we did know we wanted her to have this goal of an MSG or what ended up being MSG. But we didn't know that would be it. And I think very much like what happens in the first episode of the final season, she struggles with what will be my legacy and what is the thing I need to do? what is the win I have to sort of be the lead of my obituary because it was falsely printed and it was not flattering. So she really, she's very determined to change it. And she and Ava had this discussion about what is the ultimate goal for a comedian.
14:31And we had the discussion in the writer's room. What is the ultimate goal for a standup? And if it's not to host a late night show or to have a sitcom, both of which she tried and failed at doing, it was to sell out a major arena like MSG. So once we had that, then we knew, then it was easier to sort of build episodes around that goal. But also, you know, in a final season, you're also serving all of your characters and saying goodbye.
14:53John August:Absolutely. So thinking through what is the last time we're going to see this character? What is the degree that they have arcs? How are you closing off their arcs? And so what did that process look like? How long is the room? 20 weeks. 20 weeks, okay. 20 weeks by week 16 or 17, we're starting prep. Which usually takes Lucia out of the room for some of it. A little bit, yeah. So I direct usually the first block of this episode, so usually three or so. Then Paul usually does some in the middle. If we have somebody do another episode, we really like having guest directors. But because of the way that we block shoot, it's really hard for us to do it because it spreads a director over months and months.
15:35And then it becomes extremely cost prohibitive to have other directors. And also they can't take other work. because they have to be on call if we move a scene up or what have you.
15:44John August:Give us an example. So practically, so what a block looks like. So you said first two or three episodes. Yes. So they're cross-borded across those three. It's cross-borded across those three, but if there's a scene from episode seven that is in that one location that we're doing the first block, we're pulling it up. In this final season, what are the locations you would need to come back to? We started in New York. That's right. We started in New York partly because of weather, which meant there were things from the final two episodes that we had to pull up. to the very first day of shooting, which was really wild.
16:13John August:Yeah. And it's very hard for the actors. And so at this point, have they seen all the scripts or are you basically just giving them the scenes? No, we're just giving them the scenes. Would everything be written or everything's a little in flux? The last one or two episodes were still finishing, but we knew enough that we knew that like the ninth episode, which is what we started shooting, we knew what it would be and we just like got it together enough to be like, this is what we're shooting. They didn't know what it was exactly, but we did shoot those things first. And obviously... The hardest thing to write was the finale.
16:43Even though we knew where we were going, it was so hard to say goodbye to everybody, check all of the boxes, but also it was very much, you want to give your audience a satisfying goodbye. And so there was a lot of thought put into that. That said, usually I think the hardest episode is the first episode of the season. And so in a way, starting with some of the stuff at the latter end, I felt comforted by it. I was like, great. We know where we're going, even though it took a lot of writing and rewriting and rewriting and rewriting. It was kind of nice to start that way.
17:13John August:So locations, so there's Los Angeles, there's Las Vegas, there's New York, there's Paris. Yeah. Is there any other places you travel to? Not this season. Okay. But mostly it's in LA. I mean, mostly... Things that look like Vegas are actually in Los Angeles, same with New York City. Yes. Yes. I mean, all of our interiors are here in Los Angeles. You know, we do usually spend a week or maybe two at most doing exteriors or big casino shots in Vegas because it's very hard to fake that. Yeah. But otherwise, yeah, everything is here in Los Angeles. It has been since the beginning, and we're really proud and happy to be here.
17:45John August:Lucia, you said from the very first episode of the show, the idea of like, wonders and these long tracking shots. And so do you feel an urge to top yourself each season with those? Yeah. I mean, I think we do write very visually, and so we do put a lot of that stuff into the script. but also yeah it's like it's this really interesting thing where you want to have like visual motifs that you repeat but you also don't want it to feel like that's all the show does and so you do want to like push yourself and there's also just like part of the vocabulary of the show is things such as like you know in the very first episode in the pilot and then also in the finale like when deborah is having that conversation with marty and he's like oh you're i'm taking your dates away the first half of the scene is shot on sticks so and then as the scene turns it goes to handheld.
18:34And we did the same in the finale when Debra is telling Ava that she's sick and that she wants to go to Paris to, spoiler alert, end her life. And so we do the same thing where it sticks and then it becomes handheld. So like those things that are supposed to be imperceptible, I do want to continue throughout the series. But yes, in terms of like the oners, well, like we also have the visual, like the opening of the pilot was behind Debra in the opening of episode - The finale. Yeah, episode 10 is behind Ava and her first day as a showrunner on who's making dinner. And so those things, like those mirrorings, I do think are like worth doing without pushing yourself to do something new.
19:10But then, yes, there are things like when we were in Paris, I wanted it to feel like a slightly different language. Like it's they're like in this like little love cocoon. And so like those shots felt different. The coverage felt a little different. It was like a little bit more voyeur, like we were watching them actually on vacation. And so, yeah, it's like I really try to just think about it as just like story and, yes, reinvention and like one upping, but not for my own boredom or ego or something, you know, it's to do it always for the story. Like I would.
19:42John August:You're saying like it's mirroring because it's just like it's making people feel rewarded for having paid attention. Exactly. Yeah. And like for me personally, like if you're watching something I directed, I don't ever want you to be like, oh, that feels like it's a Lucia and Yellow direction thing because I really don't ever want my style to supersede what's best for story. I just want it to be good. So you have scripts written, you start shooting and you're starting to say goodbye to people in front of the lens, behind the lens. Talk to you about that because it's got to be just different. Obviously, any show could go away at any time.
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20:17John August:So when you're rapping, somebody out of an episode or wrapping a season, you don't know that everyone's going to come back. In this case, everyone does know that they're not coming back. And people are also probably thinking about, what is my next job going to be? Can you talk about some of the practical considerations of shooting a final season knowing that it's the end? Yeah, I think it's very sad to say goodbye to people. And as you wrap them out, there were tears every block because you were saying goodbye to characters as they finished. But it was really interesting. No one, I don't think, was thinking about their next job.
20:45It was the most fun season to shoot. I think everyone was like, wow, this is the last time. Let's really appreciate it, which was so nice. There was certainly a lot of pressure and stress to get it right because it was the ending. And, you know, we always say if you watch Chopped, it's all about the ending. Whoever wins the dessert round wins the episode. You really want it to feel good, you know, in the end. That said, even though there was so much pressure to make it good, people had the most fun. I mean, Jean broke the most this season that she's ever broken. And she never breaks. She's a theater actress who is really hard to break, and she broke the most she's ever broken.
21:22And so it was just like a very fun season. It just felt very nice to appreciate each other because it was the end. In terms of considerations of... The one practical thing was when it was someone's last day, being like, okay, we're going to wrap them out and just get everyone ready. You know what I mean? It was like, we're going to do the thing. And so everyone was kind of bracing for that and making sure that other cast who might be in a changeover were present so that they could actually say goodbye to Poppy Lou, for example.
21:51John August:Between other seasons, so like the first season was great and I think you didn't know while you were shooting the first season that there would be a second season. No. So yeah, it was a good experience. We kind of didn't know any season. That's true. Honestly, we didn't know. It was never a guarantee. Maybe the fifth season, I think we knew was going to be like after the end of the fourth, we felt confident we'd get a fifth, but that'd probably be the only one. Yeah, I think that was the only one. We never really knew. It's different than like the classic TV shows. Like if you're on Friends, you sort of know the Friends is coming back until it's not coming back.
22:21John August:Right, exactly. And so, but you're this sort of weird middle exception where it's just like you've shot back to back or felt like back to back much more frequently than other shows do. There wasn't this two-year gap between seasons. Talk to us about the, you wrap a season and you start a new season. What was the space of time in between there? How long was it? And sort of what were the conversations? Do you want to know how long? That's right. 48 hours. Incredible. That was maybe the longest. We usually were doing, let's say, promotion for a season that was still airing and then starting the writer's room for the next season.
22:55When we started and when it aired, put us on a track that was sort of like, well, if you do want to do it annually, and part of that decision came from story because the very first season, it ends on a plane. Ava realizes that in sort of a drunken pill-addled stupor, she sent a very revealing email, and that's going to come to pass in the next season. We picked up like 40 minutes later. And so because we picked up so soon, that was part of it. I mean, obviously, we also enjoy as viewers of TV, when our shows return, you know, there are shows that we're like, where is it? There's so many shows that we're like, please, I need you to come back.
23:31We did want to give that experience to the viewer that it was coming back, but also it served the story because it was so on the heels of what had just happened in the first season. But then once we set up that momentum, we had to keep it up. And so it was very, there was no time. There was no break. The only time that we had a break was during the strikes. We did skip a year that time, but randomly the story was time passed. That was bizarre, yeah. But yeah, no, we really have almost no time and we edit on the weekends when we're shooting. So by the time we wrapped this past season, we had already locked eight episodes.
24:05John August:Right. Which is, you know, obviously very hard because production is already hard enough, but then to be editing every single weekend for four months straight is really taxing. But it also meant that as we're editing, we can kind of, if there's something that we haven't shot yet and we know this could use some clarification, we're actually going to be shooting that scene. Let's rewrite, let's tweak that. So like it made it so we could fine tune the writing as we're shooting, which we don't do on a massive scale. I think there's only one scene that we added, but it does really help us because we're just so in it.
24:42It also helps, I think, us as directors because we're like thinking about how we're covering things. It's like, we just saw that. We should change up the way that they're in the office, this next one, and we saw that one already. So it just helps you be in the groove, you know? Yeah, the rewriting is so served by us watching the story as it goes and then being like, oh, we need to rewrite this to be this or we really need to underline this idea so it's not missed.
25:05John August:Yeah. So as you're wrapping stuff up, there's all the like, you know, people leaving, crew like on and on, cast leaving and crew leaving, but also like post-production, that's like, oh, that editor is done forever. Like, when is your offices closed or are the offices closed? Great question. Because I just think, does it just like one by one people disappear or is there just a day or at all? No, it's one by one. Like this editor's done, but their assistant editor's still on for a couple weeks and then that person's moving on. So it's one by one and it like slowly disappears. It's so funny. What's left is we just had a conversation the other day about bloopers and the servers.
25:42They want to like clear the servers. They want to clear the servers. It's so weird. We're also talking, we're talking to HBO about when they close the Instagram. We're like, oh my God, this sounds so sad. It does. Close the Instagram. Give it to us. They said they wouldn't. They won't give it to us. no. They were like, we're going to, It's going to be retired, which is so bizarre. Paramount wants it now. It's weird. It's so weird. It's so weird. So there are still some little things left out there. Clearing the servers is bone chilling. I'm like, clearing the servers, what are you talking about?
26:14That feels really bad. That feels like deleting a soul. I know. I know.
26:17John August:It does. Let's transition to talking about your features because you made two smaller features. And those are situations where they spring up, they exist, and everyone goes away. That's how a feature works. That people don't sort of remain. But like those servers got cleared off at some point too. Yeah. Do you know where the footage is for Rough Night? Like if you need to go back and do a thing? Absolutely not. I don't know if it exists. I have no idea. Yeah. No, we, no. We have a, it exists on DVD. It exists on DVD. You know, maybe it was part of that Sony hack. So maybe it exists somewhere on someone's home server.
26:50I don't know. They might have it. No. Yeah, I have no idea. But randomly that movie like pops up on random streamers all the time. It was so bizarre. number one on HBO Max recently, but not in America. No. Only international. Yeah. It's so weird how movies have that kind of like, they're going to have a second life, I guess. Yeah. It's interesting though, because it was such a shorter amount of time, it feels almost like, I don't know, like a kid that we had like, briefly had like adopted for like a year and then we're like, oh, how are you? Yeah.
27:22John August:I would try those as like friends from camp. We're like, oh my God, I love that. I haven't thought about you in years. Yeah. So right. Yeah, it's been nine years since that came out, since Rough Night came out. And Time Traveling Bong, it was originally made as like a mini, a limited series. Yeah, prestige limited series. It was one of those. Was it Comedy Central? Yeah, Comedy Central. Which was so cool of them to let us make that. It was like a silly idea. We made it for a dollar. I really missed that. We truly shot for 12 days or something. It was so fast. And it was like, I don't know, it was just one of the best experiences ever because it was just so fun.
27:59And I really miss like having a place where you can be like, hey, we're friends. We make stuff here. Can we make this silly little thing? Yeah, go make it. I miss Comedy Central. Yeah. Very much originals. Yeah. I mean, we bang the drum of like, you know, where is the, what is the new Comedy Central? How about let's just bring the old Comedy Central back? Hey, maybe. That's a thing we could do. You never know. You never know. Comedy Central originals. The origin for us, you know. Yeah.
28:20John August:I bring up the issue of like, where are the files? Because I have this hard drive that I'm pretty sure it's all the Avid stuff for my movie The nines really and i get you i get the rights back to the nines i think like next year wow um and so i could in theory do a thing or put it out on a different format and i realized there's just very little out there about like how to take back a film or sort of what to do with that stuff so honestly if listeners have history or experience with like getting the rights back to a movie i'm curious what people will do because right now sony owns it through new market and it's there's But in theory, I get all the rights to the movie back.
28:57Wow. That's cool. That's great. Is that common? I don't even know.
28:59John August:I think for true indies, it is kind of common. It's like a 20-year deal or something that they made on it. Wow. And I get stuff back on it. So at some point, the time-traveling bond could be yours. I hope so. Desperately. Desperately. Yes. We love our lawyer, but I'm like, I doubt it. I'm like, wow, we're getting anything back? I don't know. Let's segue talking about some movies that could exist in the future. This is our three-page challenge. Yes. So for folks who are new to the podcast, every so often we invite listeners to send in the first three pages of their feature, their pilot, and we talk about them on the air.
29:33John August:So everything we're looking at, these people sent these in. They wanted the feedback and criticism. So we are going to try to be constructive but honest because that is our reputation is constructive but honest. Okay. I'm trying to uphold that for you. I thought we might start with Dying to Love You, which is a script by D.M. Hoke. Do we have a synopsis for that? Yes. So we begin with a rapid montage of our protagonist, Charlie, seeing her last boyfriends die in surprising and sudden waves. A sign falls on one boyfriend's head while they're up for ice cream. The next boyfriend trips and is impaled on knives in the dishwasher.
30:08And the last boyfriend seems like he's proposing to Charlie on a mountaintop when he's knocked off, balanced by a bird, and falls off the cliff. We quickly see that Charlie now chooses to live very much alone, with the exception of her boyfriend, Standon, a framed poster of an action movie celebrity named Michael Johnson. The pages conclude with Charlie talking to her friend, Aisha. Aisha implies that Charlie seems a bit depressed. Aisha also seems to be the sister of Charlie's last boyfriend, Trey, the one that fell off the cliff.
30:37John August:All right, so that's three pages of dying to love you. We'll start on the title page here. Looks good. DM Hoke has representation. someone at the Beacon Agency. Beacon Agency has a hotmail address that doesn't give me the strongest sense of confidence there. DM also has their phone number on it. How do we feel about phone numbers on Scripps? Well, I'm loving the 973 because as a New Jersey boy, I'm really connected. So I instantly am like, this is a Jersey boy or girl, don't know. Direct message Hulk, I'm not sure. I think it's Donna because it's donahoke.com. Hi, Donna. Very, very good. Okay, now you could open a detective agency.
31:15So I personally am connecting to it, but I don't know. What do you think about putting your number on? Maybe that's scary.
31:22John August:I think email addresses are fantastic. Everyone can reach out. I don't want a random person calling me about the thing. Yeah, of course. Or texting me. Are you going to call someone? Yeah. I'm not going to call somebody. But otherwise, great. Let's talk about what we experienced over the course of these three pages. Who wants to start off? I was a little like, you know, hey, sorry to be so gendered. I didn't know Charlie was a girl for a second. Yeah. So I'm going, Charlie, say, girl, Charlie. Yeah. I'm just going to tie her. Yeah. Until we get to her cone hits the ground, we don't know. Right.
31:52John August:Yeah. It takes a second. It does take a second. I was interested in the tone. It felt to me, because it has sort of this final destination thing, these people dying in rapid succession, but also, you know, the bird flying on his head and him falling off the cliff signaled to me that maybe it was a bit more comedic. Yeah. You know, that there is a campness to this. Which is, I think that's the thing always when I'm reading something is trying to get the tone. Yeah. Trying to get it as soon as I can. And hopefully it's right because you hate being in a screening of a movie or something and you laugh and you're like, are people supposed to laugh?
32:26You know what I mean? It's terrifying if you're like, the filmmaker doesn't want you to laugh now. So I think tone is such an important thing. But I think it's, I mean, what do you think? That it's comedic? It's so interesting because it like starts with this like, what you're saying, almost comedic final destination. But then it becomes like this like quiet, almost sweet, like conversation with a friend. I think you're lonely. Like it does feel like there's a tonal shift to me.
32:50John August:Also, the tone when we're in her apartment and she's talking to the poster. It's like, okay, you're kind of a crazy person. And so I wasn't sure where I was at for that. The opening montage felt a little too fast. And so it's boyfriend one, boyfriend two, boyfriend three. Well, actually the third one gets a name. But like the first two, even if we don't give them names, tell us what they're like. Just give us a physical description because boyfriend one, I just don't, I don't know what I'm looking at. Right, right. Yeah, it's hard to connect. I think that this writer can do it because I felt like there were certain really evocative things that happened when she was in her apartment.
33:23You know, there were certain mundane slice of life moments. Am I getting too ahead of us? No, it's perfect. It's great. There were certain like mundane slice of life moments like the single table setting. Yeah. Or putting the toothbrush in the toothbrush holder that I thought were really you know, Hemingway-esque. They were very evocative, very, you know, they were very economical. Absolutely. And so I really responded to that. I thought this is a great way to show that this woman is lonely. Now this is all before she speaks to her poster. Has her sort of fantasy world. Also, I was confused. Like Michael Johnson in I Die For You, it was like, I guess I was like, is this a real person?
33:59It felt like it's fictional.
34:01John August:It's fictional, but I think it might be good to acknowledge it in the scene description just because I could say You see like, wait, is that a person I'm not aware of? Right. Top of page two. So we have these three suitors die and then she's walking home and like an arrow from nowhere pieces of this guy's heart. I didn't know it was a vision. I didn't either. And so I was like, wait, that's the fourth person that feels like you're breaking the joke. Like, oh, no, it didn't happen. But there's no acknowledgement that it didn't happen. That's right. I think like confusion, especially when someone's reading a script, is probably the worst thing.
34:34But I went back and I was like, oh, I see. it's italicized I think she's indicating that it is just a vision but there's no sort of like she snaps out of it which would have helped me I guess the street sounds return is supposed to be the idea but yeah
34:46John August:and I think that sound cue is correct but I think you just need a bigger signifier there to let us know that this was a fantasy because otherwise I agree like on page two if you're confused about something you're kind of probably put it down or you're going to lose some faith in it yeah last thing I'll point out is this conversation with Aisha Aisha has a key chain with her brother Trey's face encased in plastic dangles from her purse. I'm just now realizing that Trey is the one guy we saw die earlier. I think that key chain is going to be too small. We're not going to be able to read it. Inserts are tough.
35:17Inserts are tough. And you only saw him for a brief moment. Exactly. I assume that had this been four pages, we would have gotten a little bit more of that. But I agree. It's another thing where it's like, I think you want to make it crystal clear to the viewer and to the reader what exactly is happening. And what's nice is you can make it more clear to the reader and the viewer because you can tell us in the stage direction. in the stage direction.
35:39John August:Lucia, if you say more about why inserts are tough because I think people have a hard time understanding like if you just pop in close on that thing, it's really tough to put it editorially. Well, it's so funny because it's tough because I think it like always breaks up kind of usually the flow of what you're doing. Now you're cutting to something that's still an inanimate object. There is something about it that also like photos, if it's just a photo of a guy, then I'm like, it's fine. But like so often photos of like, we have this a lot on Hax, but like Debra Vance Young with Saddam Hussein or whatever, which is one we've done before.
36:14Like, you know, the Photoshop is always a little weird and you're like just taken out of it. Like it's just hard to do. Also for me personally, I'm not always wearing my glasses. And so I can't as a viewer read inserts of texts or like I can if I'm wearing my glasses, but oftentimes I'm saying to Paul, what does that say? Yeah, I do. I do a lot of reading. I do a lot of reading out loud. You're the reader.
36:38John August:I'm the reader, yeah. So even more than photo inserts, I would say texts on camera. I'm like, you could shoot it, but you just, if there's any way to get around it, just don't do it. And I don't even want to say this because you know what? I don't want to encourage it, but people watch on their phones. You know, I don't, sorry. Sorry to brag. But when people watch on their phones, everything is so much smaller. I think something like the key chain would be missed. I mean, I'm sure the goal is to have this on a very big screen. But, you know. It's an IMAX page. I do think you want to think about the wider audience.
37:10And so, yeah, it's challenging. And nowadays, there's so many inserts of phones. Yeah. Which always takes me out. Because I'm always seeing, again, maybe it's because of knowing how the sausage is made. But I'm always seeing the actor hold their phone so still. And like turn it for the reflection. I'm like, I just like feel that in a way that does take me out of story sometimes. Yeah.
37:31John August:Yeah, I strongly support the move towards if someone is typing on a phone, print that on the screen so we can see it. I like subtitles because they're just like, come on, let us read what's actually happening. Yeah, I remember seeing that, I think, in House of Cards was the first time I encountered it. And I was like, oh, yeah, great. Sure. I'm seeing what's happening. I'm hearing it. I don't, you know? Yeah, absolutely. It was a good technique. Early House of Cards. Yeah. So good. All right, let's move on to our next sample here. This is You're Dead to Me by Jazz Garawal. Can you give us a synopsis?
37:59This script starts in the middle of a recording session for NPR's show Marketplace. An executive from HarperCollins is the subject of the current interview. During the recording session, a frazzled NPR producer named Louis keeps getting called by his brother, who has annoyingly programmed Louis' phone to play the Scooby-Doo theme song whenever he calls. Louis is mortified, keeps silencing it. His brother keeps calling. Finally, when Louis picks up, his brother Ashton says he's flailing and needs help. Ashton barely gets this out before Lewis hangs up on him. All eyes are on Lewis at this point.
38:31The HarperCollins exec asks, who's your brother? And that's when it comes out. Lewis's brother, Ashton, is apparently hugely famous.
38:38John August:Great. Title page, straightforward, looks great. I think an email on the cover page is good if it's a sample just so someone could reach out to Jazz and say, we loved your script. Who would like to start on this? This interview is happening in the HarperCollins office. Kai Rizdahl, who is a radio host here in the U.S., is interviewing us a real person, a cameo. Okay. For our bonus. We need a cameo. Okay. What did we think? Well, I actually found the initial dialogue here with Kai and Sarah to be kind of like, I don't know, like snappy kind of and fun, even though if not a little, I was like a little like, I don't know what they're saying exactly.
39:18Yeah. What do they mean? But I like it. Yeah. Like, yeah, slap an ad for the latest Gregory book on Niagara's For You page to call it a day. I'm like, sometimes when people are confident, we call it... Oh, competency porn. Competency porn.
39:29John August:Yeah, we've talked about that on the podcast recently. I love it. Yeah. We feel like they're doing their thing. They're doing their thing. We love that. It's so fun. They're confident. They know what they want. Succession. Come on. Yeah, exactly. Succession. Murder, she wrote. She knows what's up. Oh my gosh. Classic. Yes. And I don't know. The dialogue here made me feel like whoever wrote this knows what they're talking about. And I did find that intriguing. I did too. I felt... And maybe it was because I just liked the setting and I related to the content of their discussion. I was leaning in a bit.
39:59I was like, okay, interesting.
40:01John August:When we get to bottom page one, the Scooby-Doo-Boo, that's the wrong lyric. It's not actually what it is. And so it pulled me out. It kept going back to that. I was also confused. Are we hearing the lyrics or are we just hearing the melody? Because if it's just the melody, I think it's actually kind of funnier because you sort of have that sensation of wanting to sing along, but it's the full lyrics too. I don't know if I'd buy it. Okay, I like that. I like that. It'd be really annoying. I think it was a specific and funny, you know, it wasn't like who let the dogs out, which I feel like would have been first thought.
40:30I did like the Scooby-Doo specificity. But I also agree. I think lyrics actually, I think maybe the right choice is just the melody and maybe the ring tonification of the melody, you know?
40:41John August:Middle of page two, we have this debate about it. We have a text message. Are we seeing it on the phone screen? Are we seeing it printed across? Not a choice you have to make on the page here, but something to think about. Bolding that, sure. I've also seen it formatted as dialogue blocks where it's just so you can sense it because it is sort of taking the place of dialogue. Kyra's doll is annoyed but seems relatively generous about what's happening here. I was confused. Like how does, like I guess because of the name, you're his brother. Like I got confused. I got confused too. It felt like two bigger reaches from like the last name that we could get there.
41:20And then it was like, you're his brother. I'm like, yeah, I was just tell Alex to get his ass to the Christy boardroom code Ashton. Then I'm starting to be like, what kind of person are we talking about this Ashton? Like, you know what I mean? It started to become a little bit silly. My pitch, just like a quick solve, is he answers and he says, Ashton, I'm at work. You know, if we know the first name, then when we get the last name, it makes a little bit more sense that she puts together that they're brothers. Yeah. I like that pitch. Thank you. Very simple. Just add the name. Although I will admit when you would call me, I wouldn't say Lucia.
41:55You know, I wouldn't often invoke your name. I know, but I think if you're angry enough at somebody like Ashton. Yeah, that's true. That's the way to do it.
42:02John August:Stop. Okay. So I think when she gives you the line reading, Paul. That's good. Okay, I got it. With frustration. Lucia, I'm at work. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I could almost buy it. Although we don't have the same us name. We wouldn't work in this scene. No, no, absolutely. We do talk a lot about like how people don't really say other people's names nearly as much as they do on television or film. Yeah, in scripts, it happens a lot. And even we do it. And then we take it out in the edit. We've said the name Deborah too many times. She doesn't need to say that. We all know. Yeah, I would say, I would think on hacks though, Deborah is, it's an opener word.
42:36John August:Because like, I'm going to say something mean. I'm going to say something kind. Yeah, so it's a way in. We talk about like conversations need doorknobs. and it's like a doorknob for being able to get to the next line. That is true. That is very true. And Debra's a good name to say. It is. It is a good name to hear too. I'll confess, I always forget Ava's name and so I'm always referring to her as Hannah because I cannot, Ava just doesn't stick in my head. It's so short that it's hard to. Oh, interesting. It's, it'd be like a bad name for a dog because you can't yell, Ava. Yeah, so true, so true.
43:07It isn't as sticky as Debra. Debra really works and is so her. When we, when we discovered that name and we figured out that would be her name. It really worked.
43:16John August:Well, also it tells you that she's a certain age because it's not a name that anyone has now. No. And that was the origin for Ava. Ava is so a 1995 name. Absolutely. And slightly based on a friend of ours. Yes. Or not the character. We just took the name. That's a good name. Yeah, great name. Yeah, great name. Let's do our third one and then I want to have a little meta discussion about this process. Third free-based challenge is Monster Law. Can we give us a synopsis? We start in Seattle at the Lumen Field during a Seattle Seahawks game. In the back hallways, Kirk, seemingly a janitor, mops the hall, but he's being stalked by something.
43:54Suddenly, a monster strikes from behind, bites Kirk's arm. Reveal, Kirk is wearing chainmail armor. He beats up the creature and puts it in handcuffs. Finally, the creature speaks and it says, I want my lawyer. We cut to an office building. It's Lorelai Griffin's first day at Montague and Stern, attorneys at law. Great.
44:15John August:We got an email address on the title page. So, of course, I'm happy. I wasn't sure if this was a feature or a pilot. And we get to a credits sequence that makes me think it's probably a series, but I wasn't sure. I thought so too. Yeah. You're reading that. So, we start in this, we start in Seattle. We start in this sort of action sequence and sort of misdirections about who these people are and sort of what the situations are before we get to the law firm. and they're kind of too different. They feel very, very different between the two of them. A thing that was not working for me is I think just someone who's maybe newer to the form.
44:53John August:They didn't understand that these are all one scene and instead we're putting these cuts in there when it's all one continuous moment. So you wouldn't need to have these other scene headers in there. Lucia, if you were directing this, this would be, you would be in the hallways and even the camera style changes would just be reflected on the page, not as different. scene blocks, right? Yeah. And also they do describe a lot of the shots. Like we're in a wider shot now that, you know, I think that that's not something that's necessary to describe. I don't mind. There's a moment in here where they say, you know, we're seeing the janitor from the, you know, back of the hallway.
45:28It's that shot, you know, that shot where somebody else is watching. I actually didn't mind that. I thought that was good.
45:32John August:That's helpful. Yeah. And so I know that there are some directors who get like frustrated when people describe shots. I'm not one of them, but if you're going to describe it, it needs to be for a good reason. And that thought that was a mixed bag here. What I liked about that description is it tells you what it feels like. And it's useful because I'll pull up that image in our head where if you just said why, we wouldn't know what that would be like, oh, hey, I get what this is. I get a sense of what the music is, of what the lighting is, all that stuff from that shot. I did think that the opening of this really gave me tone.
46:01I did understand the tone. And we talk about that a lot. We often in our scripts, we are pretty visually descriptive, but it's also because we're directing it usually. It's interesting when, you know, if a director were getting this, it's like, well, you've told me the shots. And sometimes I think it can be overkill if it's like close up, you know? It's like, okay. But some of these shots I did think, okay, it's giving me a sense of what this looks and feels like. And so I did feel like I knew the tone most from this of the three we've read. But then the tone shifts pretty dramatically to just a scene that is giving very, very little tone.
46:38But I'd say that it actually shifts most dramatically when the creature speaks. I'm like, okay, so I didn't bump on the tonal shift because I was like, oh, I see. This is another misdirect. You know, we have a child. The child is four. Yes. And it kind of reminded me, and actually in a good way, of like a dog man book or something. Yeah, sure. Where it's two things at the same time, yeah. Yeah, or like it's like very visual and kind of silly and like you're like, I think this is going to happen. No, the bad guy wins actually. And then the creature talks and says something kind of funny. Like there was something about it that like it felt like childish but not in a way that I mean in a dismissive way.
47:18I mean in a way where it's like it's clear. You're getting jokes and misdirects and laughs or whatever it is. And I like that. Yeah, we like that.
47:27John August:At the very start here, exterior Seattle night. It's raining because of course it is. Okay, I get that sense of tone there. I was frustrated though it was a little bit generic because it's like, okay, we're generic city shots and somehow we're on the field with a running back, which is just like, okay, well, it's all one shot, I guess. You can direct a one-er there. Then we're going to the back, but it wasn't specific to this setup and this series, this opener. And if it's raining, the payoff on the raining, I didn't really understand unless that's why the hallway is wet and flooded. So it just felt really weird that we're establishing that it's raining and it doesn't actually matter for where we're at or why there's a big football game happening.
48:06Yeah, I'm like, the first thing a line producer is going to say to you is does it need to have the game going? Yeah. Can it just be the empty hallway? I mean, can it just like...
48:14John August:Could, maybe should be. Hate to get into the budget with you. Maybe scarier. Yeah. Although, I don't know, the roar of the crowd in the back. When we hear, I want my lawyer, I was curious, like, what does the creature sound like? Give us a description on that creature's voice because it's like... Vincent D 'Onofrio in Men in Black. Right. Come on, great. Couldn't do any better. And then we have this scene in the lobby where a new lawyer is showing up for the first time at the office. And it felt a little stock to me. I've been at that security desk too many times. And if you're doing a show, which is a comedy, I'm thinking, we got to just find a different way in there.
48:52It also felt like this whole page could have been much shorter.
48:55John August:Yeah. Like, I'm not sure what I was getting. I guess she's nervous and that's why she's like good morning you'll wait over there I'll let Mr. Silva know you're here that's just like not anything that it's true leather it's not it's nothing that we need we could come into that scene much later or she says like she spells her name and it's like oh and then it changes when he sees like who she is right right right we could start it much much later here yeah we could start with Brandon approaching her yeah I mean you can feel her nerves just the actor can give you that you know what I mean we don't need dialogue for that Yeah.
49:28John August:So meta conversation, you have had a lot of writers on the show and you've probably read a lot of scripts and over your times staffing up on the show. What kinds of things are you looking for? Are you reading beyond those first three pages? Would you ever sit down a script after three pages like this is just not the writer for us? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah. I think the thing that would make me put it down in terms of what we're looking for, I think, is if there are jokes or things that we've seen many, many times. If it's something that feels like a reiteration of something we've seen, I think that's what's going to make me put it down.
50:04I think we really want something that feels voicey and specific. And obviously because our show is a show about comedy, we really are looking at the jokes. Yeah, we're looking at tone and the style more than like, hook me with your big story. Of course, I think if you're reading for staffing, it's very different than like reading for potentially I'm going to direct this script or something which you want to have some idea of maybe where the story is going but also I don't know like if something can be have very little story turn but the writing is just for some reason compelling and so you're going to continue to read I think compelling in any way is the thing and actually we should we should say that we've had people on the show or on our staff that aren't squarely in the comedy space, that isn't the thing that they do.
50:53And that's also okay, because if you feel something is voicey and has a point of view and is compelling, you think, okay, well, that person is good at story. That person might be very helpful in terms of breaking story, even if they're not the joke person. And I think that's the thing. You always want to think about the alchemy of the room. And this is not something when you're submitting a script. You'll ever know, oh, they need somebody who's a world builder and does story, or they need someone who's doing a setup. And a punchline, yeah. It's not like just because you're submitting for a half-hour comedy, it has to be filled with jokes.
51:27Yeah. So I should say that. But I think we're always more impressed by somebody who is doing their own thing than somebody who's hyper-competent at just writing a sitcom.
51:38John August:So as you were staffing, did you only read originals? Did you read specs? What did you read? I don't think any specs. I don't think we did read specs. I think it was all originals. Yes. Yeah, people had written pilots. And for the most part, they were people that we either knew or were fans of. Okay. Well, they were people that we didn't know. Yeah. There was like, I'd say one or two. And fans of like, you saw them perform, you saw them online. Like what are ways you can cross them? Pat Regan is a good example. He's a standup and we thought his standup was very specific and very funny. But then his sample was really good.
52:15The story was really compelling. It was really funny. He had figured out a way to translate his tone onto the page. Because that's the thing, I think, obviously we wanted to have stand-ups in our room since the show was about a stand-up, but we also wanted people that would be contributing when they were pitching a story. So it was important to us that it wasn't just someone who was great at jokes, but also could kind of, you know, help in other ways in the room.
52:40John August:Yeah. You also had a fair number of writers who I think were actors as well. is that I recognize familiar faces who I think were also on your writing staff over the course of seasons. Yeah, over the course of the season, we did. So Guy Branham was, he joined The Room on season three, I want to say, but was an actor on season one. All right. Joe Mandy is a standup and an actor as well, but also I think, you know. He was a first person I recognized. Very, very much a writer. You know, it comes from the Parks and Rec world and The Good Place. And so he was someone who, yeah, was also a performer.
53:12And Pat, aforementioned, but also a cameo on the show. These are people because we just like everything about them. You know, we like their performance style. We like their comedy style. And it just meshed into the tone of the show we envisioned. And we also just like being around them. I mean, that is such a, hey, reputation. Well, yeah.
53:30John August:So let's talk about that sort of the chemistry of it all. So you read something you like, and then what is that meeting like? And is it all three of you meeting? How long is the meeting? What are you guys talking about? It is the three of us, which now, as you say that, I'm like, that must be so intimidating. It's intimidating to have like three people on the Zoom. But in a way, it's also, it means we can also just all talk and it's not so one-on-one. Maybe it's better. I don't know. But yeah, the three of us meet them. We kind of just get a vibe for what they gravitate towards, what they like doing in a room, if they've been in a room.
54:02Some people hadn't been in a room. And also, I think it's just a vibe check. It's like, do you have clack? You know, are you able to... have a conversation with that person. You know, it's such a wavelength thing. It's almost hard to describe. And in a weird way, like sometimes we'll be at a party and we'll be hanging out with somebody who maybe is a performer, a writer, or in the comedy world in some way. And we just are giggling with them and having a great hang. And then we're like, hey, we should see if they want to write on the show. And that is the way that we, and sometimes they say no.
54:37But oftentimes, you know, people are busy, but sometimes they say yes. But like, that is a -
54:42John August:We should see if they want to write on the show, but did you read them before you said that? So you're just guessing. Then we would read them. Yeah, sure. You know, I think we always want to read a script. Here's an example of Claudio Doherty. We know her. She's a person in the world. Whenever we hang out with her, we're like, God, she's so funny. You know, she's been busy doing stuff. But I think after, you know, we were like, we should see if she wants to do like what we used to do is like a blue sky room, which in the very beginning of a season, we do a week or two. I don't think we are allowed to do these anymore, but a week or two where we would just like have people come in, Susie Essman came in.
55:19It's usually people that don't want to be on a staff full time, but have really great brains or have experience. Like Susie Essman was one, Janice Hirsch was one. Carol Leifer started with us that way. People that had an experience similar to Debra's that were, you know, standups and working in the 80s, you know, so it was something where they could Susie's not going to be in a room. Susie Essence is like, you know, she's doing Curb and she's not going to sit in a room. But I think she was so valuable to have her point of view and her experience. And also, I think for her, it was hopefully a fun experience to contribute to the world of the show because she had watched it.
55:54Yeah. I think we're just kind of at a place where like if there are people that we like being around and hanging out with and we comedy ideas come from it, those are the kinds of people we'd like to collaborate with in any way. Great.
56:04John August:So some of these people were, you know, folks who you met out in the world and you sort of brought them in. But did you have any people who grew up in the show who became writers? Yes. Two of our writer's assistants, Ariel Carlin and Carolyn Lipka, both were writer's assistants on the show and then became writers on the show. So when they were assistants, had you read them when they were just assistants? Had you read them before? We did read samples when they had applied to be writer's assistants. So yes, we did know, we did know that they had a sense of style and a tone and we did like their writing, but it was, you know, they had a little bit less experience maybe than some of the other writers.
56:40And so they started there, but... We also had given them scripts as writer's assistants. Yeah, so that was the way that we kind of were able to, almost, you know, given their first shot, was having a credit on the show, writing, co-writing a script, right? Both of them co-wrote or... I think maybe Carolyn had her own... No, maybe she did co-write. I can't remember. Yeah, I think basically we... had them co-write a script as writer's assistants. Yeah. And then they were staff members that got their own scripts after that. Yes. We try wherever we can to give assistants a chance to write and also...
57:16Promote, promote. Promote, yeah. It does feel like hopefully that's a track people, you know, other people do. But yes, we did read their samples in the beginning to be like, this person could be a writer on the show. Yeah. And let's hope that they are.
57:31John August:I think it's a good idea because I talk to assistants who are on a show and they want to write on the show and they were never read ahead of time. And so they're read and like, no, you're not really right for the show. It's like, oh my God, I spent two years on the show and you're not going to bring me on to do this. That's definitely a prerequisite for us because our intention always is to try to promote from within. And also our writer's assistants do pitch in the room. And we're not like a hierarchical where we're like, if you, this is your rank in the room, this is how much you should talk.
58:04And so they pitch jokes, they pitch ideas. And also we do spend quite a bit of time. One of the things we do in our show is Paul and Jen and I will go through a script and we will highlight joke pitch areas. Like, of course, we want the writers to pitch alt on the whole script, but we have a specific highlighted. So there's probably 20 highlights on a page. And so the writer's assistants and Paul and Jen and I are doing something else or rewriting something. They'll go do highlights on a script and they'll just do pages and pages of alts. And what's so interesting is, well, writer's assistants, everybody will submit alts.
58:39And then we'll pick one and we'll often have no idea who wrote that joke. And we'll sometimes never know. And sometimes we'll be like, we need to know who wrote that joke.
58:47John August:When you say submit on alts, like what are they actually doing? Like where are you writing or are you slacking something or what are you doing? They're writing it into a final draft document. I believe, yes, they're together. Whether like let's say Jen, Lucia, and I are either prepping something or rewriting an episode or writing a script of our own. They're kind of sitting around and all pitching jokes and pitching on each other's pitches. The writer's assistant is collating all of those so that when we get that script back. It's a hundred pages. There's hundreds and hundreds of pages. There are so many alts.
59:15So then we go through and we say, okay, we're going to keep these four alts for the day. And sometimes we, you know, even bring the actors into it. We say we have these four alts. It's the one you want to start with. And sometimes we try some in the table reads. Yes. Sometimes we just, in the table read, they'll read four in a row. Yeah. And we'll see what hits. But that is a way that writers' assistants are constantly writing for the show. Mm-hmm.
59:34John August:Can I ask you a logistical question about alts? Is that so often, like, that line is funny, but it requires a different setup, a different payoff. And then if you're doing coverage, are you making sure you're covering for all the alts? It feels like an impossible math. Our core script supervisors, I think, is so challenging because not only do we move very quickly and we shoot a lot of pages in a day, we have so many alts that we shoot. And yes, when we do the reverse, we have to get the response or we do have to accommodate the alts that we got. Unless on the day we know exactly which one we'll use, which often we don't.
1:00:04Often we want to bank them so that in the edit, you know, in the edit, when we're putting it all together, sometimes one that worked on the day doesn't work as well in the edit based on a number of factors. So we try and bank them if we can. But for the most part, we don't do more than like three on set really too often because we don't have the time to do all you're saying, like the reverse. So, but because it's gone through the process of doing the table read and often then we'll go to the actor and Jean will be like, I like this one the best or I like these two the best. So she'll kind of call it.
1:00:35Because like if an actor doesn't naturally gravitate towards one of the else, it's probably not going to be the best because they need to feel in their heart. You can feel, I think, when it is also tickling the actor. You know what I mean? It's like the little secret. There's something about it. It's just, it's harder. So they do get whittled down. We'll still try a couple on set, but that's also a very different process than the way that we'll shoot like a Paul and Meg scene, which is a little bit, like we definitely have it scripted and then they'll do, you know, they'll add a little bit here.
1:01:05They'll improvise more generally, but then we'll like not let them go crazy with improvising and then we'll say, okay, that's stuff that you improvised. Let's keep that or that we really liked it. We already shot it. So now let's use this to kind of bring us back into the scene.
1:01:17John August:You don't want to stay in a wide for the whole thing. You have to actually, you know, shoot a scene. And we don't really do a ton of cross-covering, which, you know, for comedy, that's not great, but it's a, you know, it's a balance. Also, your lighting standards are very high. You make people look really good and you sort of can't be gunning in two directions at the same time and make everybody look awesome. Yeah. We can sometimes plan to like block and light it a certain way if we really know we want to cross-cover something, but that requires them standing still for a long time. And, you know, that's not always the best, but sometimes it works.
1:01:49And I think it's evolved very much in the show. I mean, Hannah, who is so funny because she's also a writer and a stand-up, in addition to being a great actor, the first season, I think she wouldn't improvise until the last take because she would be comfortable and then she would improvise. And we'd be like, that is so good, but we don't have the reverse. We don't know what to do. And we really want to use your alt. So, you know, she obviously got much better at being like, okay, I'm going to do this the very first time. So that if you like it, we can do it. And if you don't, we don't. Yeah.
1:02:16John August:And so talk to you about like your process. because you guys together need to write. We also have Jen in the mix as well. What is it that you've learned over the course of years about how you guys work together? Well, the way that Paul and I actually write when it's just the two of us is slightly different than how we write with Jen because the way that Paul and I used to just like sit next to each other, right? And like be looking at a draft and be like, you know, writing it. But then we would find ourselves like... Nitpicking. Nitpicking over the tiniest things. And so... And having debates that were not helpful.
1:02:44Yeah, that comma, that comma, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and so what we started to do is take the same scene. We had it outlined. We knew what the basic beats were. Yeah, we would break the story together. And then we would each write the same scene. Okay. At the same time. And it would be kind of like, great, we have 12 minutes to write the scene. So you have to just bang it out and don't get in your head about it. It's almost like time chess because if I'm like, I don't really have a way in, I bet you'll have a way in. And then I just go and, you know, in that same way, if she couldn't, didn't have a perfect button, she's like, he might have a button for the scene.
1:03:15And so it just made us move through the first draft much quicker. Yeah. And then I would read his, he would read mine, and then we would highlight our favorite parts of the other person's. Okay, great. And then we would take turns combining them. So oftentimes the things that weren't my highlighted were his highlighted and vice versa. And sometimes we'd have the same jokes and sometimes we'd have totally different jokes. And I'd be like, oh, I think that's better or whatever. And it just made us concentrate on just the positives. Yeah. It was positive reinforcement only. But also it did help. If there were the same joke in a script, it would either mean it was exactly right because we had this hive mind moment or it was not right because it was too first thought, you know?
1:03:52So it was really telling in terms of, it kind of gave us a third draft by the time we combined that. That's great.
1:03:58John August:Yeah. Yeah, because we've had a lot of writing partners on the show and sometimes they'll just divvy up scenes. Like one person writes that scene, one person, and they'll paste them together at the end. Or there's two people at one computer. This feels like a good hybrid between the two. Yeah. We've done both with Jan. We have done where we all three write the same scene and then pass them along. And if somebody, so then we highlight. And then as it passed, if someone likes the highlight, they bold the highlight. So it's like truly like a fourth draft. We started abandoning that after a while because we simply didn't have time.
1:04:24It started to be too time consuming. If we want to get a show out yearly, that's not going to happen. But, you know, I think it is, I think the lesson that we've really learned, it is about positive reinforcement. And I think that that's kind of the thing that we've brought through just running a show, which is like, we all are on the same team. The best idea really should win. And we've really, and Paul and Jen and I had this conversation very early in making the show where we were like, if there's ever any animosity interpersonally, it will show up in the work, 100%. And so we were like, we need to prioritize our personal relationships and that will also help the show because then it's not about ego.
1:05:06And when writing, there's so many writing partners that, break up or can't work together anymore. And we've seen them and it's just really hard. And so we've also seen how it affects the work. So we really prioritize our friendship. And that really means that at the end of the day, like we are still excited to see each other. We're going to literally after this, we're going to go meet up with Jen to work. Great. And I'm excited, you know? And then I think that it's just such a positive cycle. We also have something that is very helpful for us, which is if one of us really believes in a joke, or if it's just one of us gets the joke, you know, it's like it's just for one.
1:05:42There is like, we do have the power to be like, but we have to try this. And then we do. And it's so interesting. Oftentimes if I'm like, I don't really get that one or it's not for me. If even one person feels that passionately about it, you will see the reaction online. It'll be like, people are quoting that thing. It always seems to work that if there is real passion for one thing, it's like, absolutely. Don't argue it. It's inarguable. let it happen, it happens. And it usually works. I remember there was one joke of yum yum in my tum tum, which was not for me. It's simply not in my wheelhouse of things I think are funny, but still to this day.
1:06:18It became like, you know, a meme. People love yum yum in my tum tum and I'm going, I am. Absolutely. To each their own. And yeah, that's been a very helpful thing. And it's been great because almost like it relieves a debate. You're like, great. They're so into it. great. It's going to be in there. And in general, having three showrunners, people are always like, that seems like a lot. But for us, it's great to have an odd number because sometimes it is two versus one in any different random configuration. It's not like me and Paul versus Jen or me and Jen versus Paul or Paul versus me. It's like it constantly shifts like who's voting and it really helps us not get into a stalemate.
1:06:55And some people think, oh my gosh, that must be so complicated. It must be difficult. And I'm like, well, I think it was really difficult to do it alone. You know, I'm like so impressed by the showrunners that do it alone because it, I mean, obviously they also have a staff usually and they have editors and they have producers and they have a lot of people. Yeah. But, you know, just having three brains is so helpful. And also you're just less alone.
1:07:17John August:That's great. Let's do our One Cool Things. Oh, yeah. So my One Cool Thing is a book I'm reading right now by Kate Hall called You Can Just Do Things. And I've had other recommendations of blog posts that Kate Hall has written, but I really like her book and it's about sort of why some people can just do things and sort of like they have agency they just sort of take agency they just do things they just sort of don't wait for permission and i think the danger of this approach could be that like you're just an asshole or just like it doesn't follow any rules and just sort of annoys everybody around you but what i like about her book is she acknowledges that but also very smart about like in not being so preoccupied about what other people think to stop you from doing the thing you want to do, which might be...
1:08:05That's hard.
1:08:06John August:Hopefully not blowing up your life continuously, but also recognizing you don't sort of only have the one short life and you have to make the best choices for what you want to do over the course of it. So I really like it. It's a very smart book. It's short. You can read it in an afternoon. You Can Just Do Things by Kate Hall. C-A-T-E Hall. Literally for me. Great. I mean, I'm like, yes. Thank you for that. Yeah. That sounds great. Yeah. But you go next. Okay. My one cool thing is vacation. Now, I know you're going, yeah, people be knowing about vacation. No, not showrunners. We recently took our first vacation in many, many, many years.
1:08:44And it was truly life-changing. That's right. And you don't have to go anywhere, actually. It doesn't mean you have to. No, I mean, we did, but you don't have to. And yes, I think it's, you know, now we had this show that was six solid years of our life, kind of nonstop. and we also had a kid and so much has been going on. And so it really reminded me of the before times when I was still like day job life and, you know, struggling and, you know, trying to get the career off the ground. And even then, like I look back at those vacations and I was like kind of like some of the most special ones because I like kind of had no right to be on vacation vacationing when I couldn't even, you know, not, I don't really mean that, but you know, like I really just, I think vacation, no matter where you are in your life is so important.
1:09:36Whether you feel like you have it all, you feel like you're struggling, whatever it is, I still think it's so important to just stop and enjoy and relax and recharge. And I know this is so obvious and it's like, what, but it really is so important and we need to do it more. Yeah. People forget people, you know, people are grinding and they forget to take a moment to pause. Yes. And travel can be fantastically feeding in terms of creativity, but also you don't even have to do that. You just have to pause. Yes. Pausing is good. It really is.
1:10:06John August:Recharging is important. Did you read any books? I read like eight books. Yeah, come on. It's great. It was really good. My favorite? Chocolat. Oh, wow. I've never read Chocolat. It was really quite good. All right, good. Different than the movie, right? Yeah, you know, it's been so long since I've seen the movie that I don't totally remember, but it really, it changes perspective between the shopkeeper woman and this priest, this angry priest who was kind of almost Gollum-like. And the writing was just so, I was really taken. Great. I like it. Vacation. Paul? Sometimes it's hard to vacation in times that seem absolutely crazy.
1:10:45Yes. Something that I think puts me at ease, helps me vacation is if you are someone who wants to like get involved politically, the state and local election alliance is something that focuses on local races that are winnable and are winnable at a fraction of the cost of, let's say, a congressional race. And so if you're looking to do something, you're like, I don't know, is my money going to make a difference? It's a great thing to donate to because every dollar goes to a race that's potentially winnable and that elects county clerks and election officials, which regardless of your political party are very important for a fair democracy.
1:11:22So I just think it's like a thing that if you're looking to do something and maybe alleviate some of your anxiety around what's going on in the world, I think it's a very simple and easy way to do that. Drop the name one more time, babe. The State and Local Election Alliance.
1:11:38John August:Fantastic. And so I'm assuming that they are tracking zillions of below-the-radar races and figuring out sort of where to maximize the dollars. That's exactly right. It's all non-national races that aren't really paid attention to oftentimes. and sometimes are won by 100 votes. They're ones that are very close and are also in doing the sort of the math of it, ones that are winnable. So I do think it's a good thing to do if you're looking for a place to do it. There are times I will see famous people on Instagram talking about a very small local race in Alabama. And I want to say, great that you're trying to spotlight on that, but also like, oh, I wonder if the spotlight is actually the right spotlight.
1:12:18John August:I feel like under the radar, $100 is probably maybe more helpful than you. 100%. Yeah, 100%. And this goes to, this is like nationwide, so it goes to races that are winnable in any state. So it's not like you have to choose one or listen to the endorsement of some random celebrity about one and that, you know. It also reminds me of like, with the gutting of local media and with like local newspapers going away, there's just like much less information out there about like endorsements over small races too. And so that someone is paying attention. Yeah, someone doing the homework feels really good.
1:12:52John August:I'm generally the person in my social circle who does the homework and looks up all those judges. Or Travis Hellwig, honestly. I was about to say, Travis Hellwig does this progressive election guide. It is so helpful to have CliffsNotes. Because to do all the research is exhausting. It's so much. There are so many races. And Travis is, of course. And you know this, fam. married to Jen Statsky, our third. Very nice. That is our show for this week. Script Notes is produced by Meredith Studman with help from Lauren Loesberg and edited by Matthew Cilelli. Our outro this week is by Nick Moore. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to ask at johnaugust.com.
1:13:32John August:That's also a place where you can send questions like we often answer. You'll find transcripts at johnaugust.com along with our weekly newsletter called Interesting, which has lots of links to things about writing. The Script Notes book is available wherever you buy books. You can find clips another helpful video on our YouTube. Just search for Script Notes and give us a follow. You'll find us on Instagram at Script Notes Podcast. Do you guys have Instagrams? You have obviously the official Instagram, which may go away, but you have individual Instagrams as well. Yes. Yeah, I have at Lucia and Yellow Set Fits where I post out my outfits on set.
1:14:03John August:I like that very much. And I have at Paul W. Downs where I post everything. Fantastic. That's great. That's where it all goes. And do you like your Instagrams? Do you like having Instagram or is it positive or negative in your life? Both. Yeah. It's really both. I mean, sometimes it's positive. Sometimes I'm able, sometimes I don't know if I should know all of the inner workings of everyone in the world. You know, sometimes I'm like, why do I know that this person has shaved their eyebrows or whatever it is? You know what I mean? I'm like, I don't need to know. But sometimes it does bring me joy to share things in my life.
1:14:32And, you know, yeah.
1:14:33John August:So it's both. I may need to take it off my phone. I mean, it's really, yeah. Okay. It's not positive. Okay. But I just, the time suck. It's a time suck. It's not a poison, but it's a little bit of a time suck. I'm a little bit, though, I do very site-specific time on it. I try to keep it to a minimum. I'm off all the other social media, but that's the one place I've kept. You can find show notes with links to all the things we talked about today and email you get each week as a premium subscriber. We'll also have links to the PDFs if you want to read along with us for the three-page challenges.
1:15:05John August:You can sign up to become a premium member at scriptnotes.net. You get all the back episodes and bonus segments like the one we're about to record on the great North American network of cameos. Paul Nuttia an absolute pleasure getting to talk with you thank you for having us
1:15:44Thank you.
From the publisher
John welcomes Lucia Aniello and Paul W. Downs to talk about the emotional and logistical process of closing out their five-season series, Hacks.
Paul and Lucia also step up as guest readers for the Three Page Challenge, a segment where we look at the first three pages of a listener-submitted script and give honest feedback.
In our bonus segment for premium subscribers, John, Lucia and Paul talk about cameos. How do they happen? What's the real deal behind the scenes?
Links:
- You Can Just Do Things by Cate Hall
- State and Local Election Alliance
- @luciaaniellosetfits
- @paulwdowns
- Cherlato Gelato
Get your copy of The Scriptnotes Book and become a Scriptnotes Premium member today! For more content on the craft of writing check out Inneresting our weekly-ish newsletter about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters.
Scriptnotes is produced by Meredith Stedman and edited by Matthew Chilelli. Our Coordinator is Lauren Loesberg.
Outro by Nick Moore (send us yours!).
Email us at ask@johnaugust.com