752 - General Meetings

18:26And as it happens, this is one of the few jobs where you can actually be weird and awkward. It's just that you have to be that much better at your job. But you are allowed to be weird and awkward. You know, some of the greatest screenwriters out there are weird and awkward. and what happens is the executives will go, yeah, I'm working with so-and-so. Oh my God, he's a genius. I know he's, he's weird. God, he's, but he's genius. So it's okay. Or like, you know, Oh yeah, she, um, she is kind of a shut in. Like she's a recluse. She doesn't actually leave her house, but the pages have been amazing.

18:58So it's actually kind of like the legend grows of this weirdo lady that's pumping out these great scripts. They'll do that all the time because this business loves a narrative. They love to characterize everybody. The danger zone is when you're not, you know, you're fine and you're also super boring or awkward or weird in a room. That can be an issue.

19:22John August:Okay, so we've gotten the general, general vibe. Lauren, where are we headed next? We are jumping forward to episode 699, where you and guest Pamela Ribbon answer a listener question about how to talk about yourself as a writer. This is a crucial skill for success in a general. Then we'll go back to episode 381, which comes from a panel discussion you hosted at the WGA. You interviewed writers Tess Morris, Christina Hodson, Nicole Perlman, and Jason Fuchs. I like this episode a lot because you talk about how you can use a general meeting to position yourself as the right person for a future project.

19:58John August:Craig, so many voices from the past. Folks we've had on the podcast several times. It's nice. Time traveling. It is. It's also a bit terrifying. Well, let's start with Pamela Ribbon and then do the panel discussion. All right, let's get to our main topic, which is the topic you brought us. And we actually have a question from a listener that kind of sets this up perfectly true. Charles writes, I've written a pilot and I'm fortunate enough to have gotten some general meetings from it. For all intents and purposes, I'm no one and they know nothing about me. What are the best practices or tips for starting a meeting?

20:31John August:You sign on to Zoom and you're suddenly met with a face and now you have to be interesting. When you're no one, you can't count them knowing anything about you. And it's weird if you know too much about them. So what are some general tips to ease into the general meeting? Pamela Ribbon, you've actually done workshops on this, like how to talk about yourself as a writer. And so I'd love to cede this conversation to you if you want to direct us here. Sure. What is your best advice for someone in Charles' situation and really any writer who's going into a situation where you have to talk about yourself?

21:01Yeah. Well, Well, I like to talk about this topic whenever it's like film festival masterclasses or whatever, because this is the thing that you have to do first. Sometimes before you've even written something, you have to talk to people about writing. And if you want to write or that you have written, and what are you going to write next? And I find a lot of people start by apologizing for even feeling this way, for having a dream or for having accomplished a script. And they're like, it's just this thing. I don't know. It's sort of whatever. I don't know. It's dumb. And even in this question, it's weird if you know too much about them.

21:40No, like you're having a meeting. So knowing a lot about them shows that you did your homework. You're excited to meet them. You're equipped. And I know we talk about like it's a first date, but it's not. We're not going to like keep dating. There's not like, am I attracted to this person? Or is that how they always dress? Like it's more about how does this flow fit? When they ask me a question about myself, do I feel comfortable answering it? And when they answer a question that I have, do I feel like they're looking at me and talking to me? Do I feel like a real person in this room? These are basic questions that in a general, you can get yourself too hyped up to even bother to look for.

22:23John August:Something you said there, I really want to pull apart is that you think back to a first date. And if someone asks you about yourself on a first date, you're going to come out with a set of answers that make you look good along a certain axis, but you're not going to get the same answers in a general meeting that you would on a first date. And so it really is, it's kind of a positioning thing you're trying to do. You're trying to explain to them who you are, what you'd like to write, why you wrote this thing, or why you're there. And it's good to practice this. Like if you're giving a masterclass, you're talking to people about this, what are your first bits of advice for the things they need to come into the room ready to say.

23:00Yeah, what I usually do is we just have a general in front of the rest of the class.

23:03John August:Great. And so someone brave enough to go first, I say, you're going to walk in here and I'll already be seated. You're going to come in like you've walked into my office. Yeah. And then you just do it because they figure it out. You walk in, you're like, hey, how are you doing? Do you need anything? You want some water? Did anybody get you coffee? And you sit down and then you small talk. Was it hard getting here? You know, was it, oh, it's hot today. Like all the things we do at the top of a general, which at the top of a Zoom, just so I'm also modern, it's kind of the same way. It is. You make sure that you're looking at the green light every once in a while so that you know you're making the closest eye contact as you can make.

23:42You make sure that you're comfortable, that you have water, that you have all the things you need. You kind of start with whatever, like we did when we first logged on of like, here's what traffic situation I was just in and here's how things are going. and then you kind of gradually find yourself moving into the topic of why are we really here? And so sometimes they start it where if they've read something of yours or someone recommended they meet you, that's a kindness that they may do. But you may start because you know a lot about it and you can start with, I just saw this, I loved it. And that's enough to get things going.

24:18And if they're not giving you anything back, this isn't a great room and you can learn very quickly, like, I don't have to sweat here. We're not going to work out, you know? Well, like you said, you're not going to give the same answer as on a first date, but I know enough that when people go, I don't know anything about you, you can say, oh, well, I can do that. Like, well, I moved around a lot. I went to 13 schools and then I kind of moved my way into like the early internet and the older net. And then that started me getting into rooms and I did comedy rooms and sitcoms for a while until I got the call from Disney.

24:51And that is, I just did so many years.

24:55John August:You did some good heavy lifting there. And what I liked is it showed a journey and it showed like, oh, they can, if they're curious about any bits of that, they can jump back to talk about that. Like, what were those early rooms like? Like, what were you doing in those places? Yeah, or what shows or where did you, you know, where did you end up? What was your last school? You know, we can start by Austin. People in LA really like to talk about Austin. They do. So you can do that. Sometimes you're talking about people you know in common, That thing of like someone said I should meet you or I saw that thing and it was great.

25:23John August:Or I see that you're working with this director. I had a great experience with them or like what this is, or like in some cases, it's the subtly coded, like that director's challenging for these reasons. I mean, I hope you're having a great experience. I love them. And it's also challenging on this thing. Yeah, finding your mutuals is a nice, like when you have found your mutuals, you learn a lot about them too. Like, oh, I love her. She's great. No, I haven't met him. Or even just the things you've seen. And they often ask, what are you reading right now? It's not quite small talk. It's medium talk.

25:53Because it's small talk with cues of, do we think that one day when we're arguing over a plot point, we're going to get to a place together because we actually are on the same wavelength? So sometimes that just like flies by and all of a sudden an hour has happened because you ended up talking about, I mean, anything from Taylor Swift to some new app you're playing with. You never know where it'll go. So being flexible with the time or just being free to explore wherever this conversation is going to go and not get nervous about what you did or did not talk about. Like you don't need to put that pressure on yourself.

26:32You can have an agenda of, I really want to make sure I mention this one thing, but you can't script it.

26:39John August:So many episodes ago, Craig and I were talking through this article and we'll try to find a link to the actual original article, the writer was talking about how good conversations have doorknobs and doorknobs and handles. Basically, there's ways you can open and sort of keep going. And so it's about making sure that you're providing them things like your bio, like all the schools you went to, all the things, you're giving them like handholds that they can pull on and actually keep the thing going. And in some of the early general meetings I had, I just didn't get the flow of it quite right. And so I would answer questions without lobbing it back so that they could sort of do the next thing or really that I could ask questions about what it is that they are looking for.

27:20John August:Because, you know, if the meeting is going well, at a certain point, it does transition into like, here's what we're working on and here are things that might be a good fit for you. That's sort of the dream situation. But other cases, it's just like, what are the general areas in which we might have some overlap there? Things that they're kind of looking for, if it's an actor's production company, like what is that actor seeking? if it's a director, what things never sort of cross the line for that director? Those are the places you're hoping to get to in these conversations. Yeah, I used to always have prepared screenplays I wish I had written.

27:54John August:For sure. Because that lets them know and let it be varied if it's varied, you know. And now I know myself well enough. Please forgive me if I've already said this on this podcast, but I will say I just am not into dragons politics or when people pay money out of a pouch. Great. That's it. I know it. It doesn't matter. You could put other things in that pouch, jewels maybe, or like, you know, a secret, but not farthings. Nimona had dragons in pouches for sure. Yeah. And I turned it down the first time it came around. A hundred percent. I was like, it checks every box I don't like. And then they came around again and they were like, the thing is you don't have to come all the way out to Connecticut anymore because of Zoom.

28:35What if we come to you? And they were like, they're kind of punk rock dragons. Yeah. And I don't think we have to have any pouches. I was like, okay, let's try it.

28:43John August:All right. My list for that, it's not a thing I would often say in meetings, but I would definitely tell my reps is like, no gnomes, elves, dwarves are Christmas. I just like, no. And so people will still come to me with Christmas. But he's like, no, I don't care about Christmas as a concept. And like, even like there was a good documentary that was about like Christmas trees in New York and sort of the whole business of Christmas trees in New York City. It's like, it is actually fascinating, but it's also, no, it's Christmas. No, it's just bah humbug. I just don't want to do those. Yeah, really does help them immediately go, oh, well, we're going to put down a number of these things.

29:16And it may make them say like, what is it that you like? And I think with me in particular, they're not always assuming what it is that I like because now that you have produced credits, they're like, oh, like there have been times when I'm like, do you think I'm a cartoon person? Is that what you're doing? And they're like, yes, sorry, I don't know. I don't know why I'm doing that. and that, you know, people have a way of learning about animation that is limiting.

29:39John August:Yes. And so you're always having to show your other sides and the dynamics of you. So often, I'll tell you what, we end up talking about roller derby. We end up talking about what I do when I'm not writing. Yeah. And your hobbies, your family, whatever it is, in those generals, I'm always talking to this person until we find that thing that lights them up. And then I know we got it. And if they're, you know, sometimes he's like, well, you know, I collect trains. And I was like, tell me more, you know, and then you watch them become the person they want to be in front of you because they're talking about their passion.

30:12John August:Absolutely. I mean, you may not give a rat's ass about trains, but the fact that it is interesting to them, there's going to be something there that's fascinating. There's something that's driving them about that. Yeah. And they have stories because of that. And so that's when you see the storyteller come to life. Again, I'm forgetting exactly where I learned this, but Rod Stewart apparently is a big model train builder and collector. and like I appreciate Rod Stewart so much more now just recognize that he has an obsession, a hobby that has nothing to do with music or songwriting and that's fun.

30:43Yeah. It's nice.

30:44John August:So let's talk about part of the general meeting is talking about what you're working on right now, which could be a delicate subject because it could be in flux. It could be like there's a director on, there's not directors not on, there could be an NDA. How do you best do that? Because I think sometimes in animation where we're under NDA is a little bit more than we are in live action, but talk to us about that. Yeah, I mean, for a while I would be like, I'm working on things I can't tell you about for years and that would be enough. You know, it depends on the room. Sometimes like you can realize you're at a Disney meeting or you can be like, we're all in the family here.

31:16I'm working on them. But if you're in a position where you can't really, like let's say right now I'm working on Emily the Strange for Warner Brothers Animation with Bad Robot. It's kind of all I can say about it. Yeah, but that was announced.

31:28John August:It was announced in the trade. So you're sort of safe there. Yeah, so I'm safe there. I'm talking about who I'm working with and I focus on the great things about it because, you know, we have hard days and I try not to launch right into like where it hurts and just talk about where it's working and what's great and what we're still excited about. Because really the NDA is often so that you don't like talk about stuff that they wouldn't want in a press release, you know, and you know that in your heart, there's things that are set up that aren't quite happening yet. Like I have a spec that went out this week.

32:00Like I've, here's something, you guys, I've never sold a spec before. Yeah.

32:03John August:Ever. I've sold exactly one. It was Go. That's the only spec I've ever sold. Good for you. That's amazing. Tell me what it's like. But so, you know, I'm excited, but I don't know what's going to happen and maybe nothing will happen. So I have a little piece of news this week that I have a spec that's going out, which if I were in a general, they'd be like, can you tell me about it? Can I get it? Can I get it on that list? Can I read it? Yeah. That's the mystery. You can use an NDA to your benefit of a mystery. You're working. I've got a project at FX I've got something going on at Disney TV animation or whatever and because these things take forever and they all have their own timeline you kind of bounce around to being like I genuinely like to balance a bunch of projects at once and so I try to talk about the one that either is the closest to next that anybody could see but you also know that a lot of stuff you work on maybe no one will ever see so you try to talk within And what is the you of it?

32:58Yeah. Not the all of it, you know? And yeah, working on this project, it's really fun. We're putting some stuff together. You can sometimes say where you're at in it, but I just try not to get into the, what's not my business.

33:10John August:Yeah. If I can bring it back to sort of my process, that's also a useful thing too. So I can say like, I'm writing this movie right now for this company and obviously it's under NDA, but I can say like, it was one of the rare cases where I needed to write the outline first. And it's just actually such a luxury to have like a really big fat outline because as I go to my daily work on doing the scene, it's like, oh, what happens in this? Oh, exactly. This is what happens. And it's like so many of the fundamental questions have actually been tackled in the outline form. And that's, so it gives me a chance to talk about myself as a writer, which is nice.

33:40Oh yeah.

33:41John August:Another point of commonality I'm thinking is business affairs. And so we say like, oh, there's this thing. It's like, you know, business affairs is so slow. I don't know what's going to happen. And it's like, everyone will just nod because like business affairs is crazy and it just takes forever to get contracts done. Yeah. Something will be sold at a place and like eight months later, you're allowed to start writing because the contracts are finally done. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you are like that. Like the deals are taken. There's a lot of heavy hitters in here. So we're waiting on some stuff. Yeah.

34:08Lawyers, you can also say lawyers. These things take time. But your excitement stays the same. And so you really get to talk about how you got, even talking about how you got that job or how you met everybody, how you ended up with it. That's a good one.

34:21John August:If you can sell the enthusiasm that you, like once, if you're excited to write this thing for them and they want to see writers who are excited to engage. I can imagine like, Charlie Kaufman is a great, great writer, but I don't imagine he's great in a room in terms of like being really enthusiastic about this thing he's doing. It's like, if you come in as a curmudgeon, maybe that's true to your authentic personality, but it's not going to be like, oh my God, I can't wait to work with him. That, well, that being said, you do not have to fake. Like some of us like going outside and meeting other people.

34:52Some of us do not. And I think sometimes the pressure is on of like, do I have to be someone else in this general? Do I have to lie and be a fundamentally different person? Sometimes you have to fake a little bit the confidence to be yourself. And then that'll get easier. The more that you're like, oh, I was myself and nothing bad happened. And yeah, you just do that again and do that again and get used to, sometimes it takes them a minute to get used to me. Even as the extrovert that I am, I can tell that I'm like, hey, I'm very excited. And I can say like a little bit too much coffee, a little bit, haven't been outside in a while.

35:27So give me a second to settle. I'm not so much nervous as I am like jittery. And I think all of those things of, hey, I'm kind of shy. I'm really happy to be here, but you should know that like, I haven't had that many generals. I'm a little shy. Like just be a person, be a person. And that makes everything easier on both sides.

35:48John August:Yeah, a hundred percent. I was on a pitch this week and usually there is like the sort of the ramp, the warmup getting into things. Everyone logs in and they're like, great, let's go. And it's like, sure, I'm there and I'm pitching away and it went fine, it went great. But you also have to be prepared. Like sometimes there's just not that on ramp and you're just like, go, like, okay, great. I'm doing it and just, so be ready for it. And so that's why I think if you are actually pitching a project, really kind of rehearsing that first minute or two, just so you feel really comfortable with how you get into it, it's going to be a huge help because it could just suddenly happen.

36:25I don't like record myself and watch it again. I do record myself sometimes for the pitch so that I don't have to do that part.

36:33John August:You've talked about this on the show, I think, before, where you actually will send them a link to a pre-recorded pitch. Yeah, the last one, people now are like more able to be in the Zooms. So, but, or you might be pitching knowing it's being recorded for someone else who's not in the Zoom. So you do have to be like, you know, your game face on. But if they do say go, like you just did, you're like, oh, yeah, this is happening. Okay. Like, it's totally fine to do that and be like, here we go. Hold on. I'm going to pull up my draft and I'm ready. And, you know, I'll do like disclaimers at the top of like, you can totally stop me for questions.

37:07I hate pitching to mute buttons. So whatever you want to do, we're all people here and I'll just get through this pitch together. But, you know, I find that they, in a Zoom room, when you're pitching, they do sit back like, here's a little TV show. And a pitch where you're with people, they are probably more likely to go, oh, wait, did you, or that's funny because.

37:29John August:Yeah. Because you're people. Yeah, you're people. And rather than being in little boxes with faces in them. Yeah. Post-pandemic, how many pitches have you done in person? Where you've like gone in, how many general meetings have you been across from person and then pitches in person? One? Yeah, like one or two for me. And so this one studio has wanted me to come in like in person twice. I'm not looking to Drew, see if he can remember other times. Two or three times, yeah. Yeah, basically everything has been a Zoom since the pandemic. And I've talked to some friends who was like, I don't know that I could pitch in person anymore because I'm so used to having my slideshow deck.

38:05John August:And so I share a screen, I go through my slides and to do that in person, it would be just, I wouldn't know what to do. One of my friends said, this is terrible because I've learned a key component of liking me is the third dimension.

38:21But all credit to Don Todd. But that one that I did in person, it was like really early pandemic. It was literally the first time I had gone into a room with someone. And I said to her when I sat down, she was a big, important person. So I sat down, I was like, I can't believe it. She's, you know, we're taking masks off. And I'm like, what is happening? Look what I'll do for my career. And that's kind of still it. I've had a room where we all got together for a kickoff. I've done some of those kickoffs in the room, but not this kind of type thing that we're talking about. They're all -

38:53John August:The kickoff stuff, I was in a room and started meeting everybody in person, but the initial things have basically all been Zoomy situations. And this one that I did this week, I didn't have a deck. There was no images. And so I just had to like, I just talked for 15 minutes and described it and it went great. But I was just, I'm so used to having the fallback of like, here's the next image, here's the next image, and to not have that. And I'm sure we've said this on the podcast before, but if you do have notes and you're doing it on a Zoom, move your notes to the very top of the screen up by your camera so you're not looking down.

39:26John August:You're looking closer to the lens, just so you're making more eye contact. I actually, I put the Zoom in the tiny little bar with the people I want to be pitching to under the green light. And then my pitch notes are right below that. So I have no choice to be looking into that little corner. And I can read how they're doing if they're listening. It's good. Another hint is if you have somebody, an executive or somebody out who's on your side, they can talk with after the fact to see like, how are people actually responding? Because people's faces are small. It's a little harder to read the sense of the room afterwards.

39:59They can also do the flipping for you if you want.

40:02John August:Yeah. So that you are only doing your talking part. Yeah. All good choices. All right. This is helpful. So any last wrap up on introducing yourself, how to talk about yourself, how to not be a jerk? We have on here, yeah, how to not be a jerk, but we have what is too personal and how do you feel confident about your work that you don't sound apologetic for being in the room. I just want to say that my first general happened day after my father passed away. Yeah. And I was like, I'm not canceling this general. I've never had one before and I'm not going anywhere today. And my dad had entered hospice.

40:37So it was like, I'm going to go outside and I'm going to go do this career thing. You know, it was the very beginning of all of this. You know, trauma and time have made me not remember everything. But I remember it was the Disney old animation building. And I sat down and, you know, she liked the script, which is about my, you know, my family, different family members, but about generational trauma and such in a comedy. And I don't know, we just sort of at some point started talking about families. and I told her what had happened last night and she ended up talking about her dad. And I do remember that we both at some point were just kind of crying a little bit, like sharing stories with each other.

41:14And then that was it. And I think that was a really good general. Even though it was not, you're not, that's not, like most people are like, no, Pam, you take the day off. What is wrong with you? Like, I know that, I know that. But I also know that like, that's what I wanted to do. And that's what he would have probably suggested I do. you know, just like go out there and talk. And so, you know, sometimes you bring the day in with you in that general is what I was trying to say about what's too personal and what's not. And if there's no getting around it, that your day is with you, you end up having some pretty profound generals sometimes because you're not doing this checklist of things and you're just some people talking to each other.

41:55And if they didn't get around to the thing they wanted to talk to you about, they'll call you again. And you'll have a follow-up or it becomes the beginning of something. But the too personal, I think the line is like, you don't owe anybody your story. And you don't owe anybody like the worst things that have ever happened to you in order to validate being able to talk about whatever you want to talk about. And I think sometimes we get worried that we have to like spread our hearts open and then give everything on that first try. You're learning what they deserve too. Sure.

42:29John August:yeah i think we should define some terms so sometimes you'll be going in to talk about a specific project so they've read your script and maybe they're talking about making your script or the meeting is about representing you if they're a manager or an agent sometimes it's a general meeting and so a general meeting means that they just want to meet you there's not a specific agenda here but even in a general meeting there becomes a moment at which like you you stop talking about the weather and like the most recent movies and it becomes sort of like what are you working on or they have like this little card like these are the things we're working on and what i didn't realize in my first like 15 meetings probably that my responsibility was to say which of those things sparked for me and if there was one that really sparked that i felt like oh i know exactly how to do that that was my responsibility to tackle that and i come back with a take on how i was going to do that like that was going to lead to the next meeting where i'd be pitching sort of on that project.

43:21John August:So sometimes it would be just a very general story idea, like our areas, or like we really want to do a movie about clog dancing. And if I had a movie, if I had it the way like, oh, you know. John, you've got a movie about clog dancing. I know how to do the clog dancing. If that sparked to me, it was my responsibility to say, I know that I grew up clog dancing. And here's what people don't know about clog dancing. And then show my enthusiasm and then be able to come back in Come back wearing clogs at the next meeting. Come back in with a plan for sort of like be able to pitch the clog dancing movie.

43:56I just have to say this because it was one of my favorite general meetings ever. Somebody had one of those lists. At the top were like movie reboots and normal things. And then it descended into words, one of which was cloudy skies. And the other of which, which is my favorite, was sweaters. Sweaters.

44:13John August:You could kill the sweaters movie. I want to see your sweaters movie. Jason, you are an actress. So you're used to going in on auditioning. And so compare and contrast what auditioning is like versus these early meetings. They're sort of similar. You know, auditions are very specific. You're going in for a specific role on a specific show. And so there is an adjustment to the sort of general type of meeting you take, particularly when you're starting out where you're realizing, I went through a very similar process to yours where I went, oh, I'm supposed to jump on these ideas. I'm supposed to build on these.

44:45I'm supposed to follow up. if you go in for an audition, generally speaking, you should not follow up with the casting director the next day and go, hey, I'm really interested in this role. I haven't heard from you, but I have some thoughts. Writing is not that. I think a lot of times in acting, you're rewarded for seeming aloof and not wanting things. Writing, I find to be the opposite. The more passionate and enthused you are, the more you follow up, the more you engage, the better the outcome is. And I also think that early, you're also balancing your creative instincts with what is available to you.

45:16So I had exactly the way you described it. I had a script last first time, didn't get made, bounced around, ended up being read by an agent at WME, then Endeavor. He read it, said, I want to rep you. He didn't tell me until a year into repping me that he was, in fact, an assistant when he signed me. But a year in, he calls me, he goes, great news, I got promoted. I said, to what? He said, agent. And I said, what have we been doing for the last year? He said, don't worry about it. The point is, I'm an agent now. He is still my agent, by the way. It's probably had the most significant impact on my professional life, if anyone.

45:47But that resulted in a meeting on Ice Age Continental Drift, the fourth Ice Age movie. And that meeting was, again, I like animation. I like family films. Ice Age is not the thing I set out necessarily to write. In fact, when they called me about it, Ice Age gets treated like it's a Marvel or a DC film. At least back then, it was like, this is big stuff. And so they call you and they go, okay, we couldn't tell you what your meeting is until now, but it's for the next Ice Age film. and they go have you seen any of the ice age movies i had not so i said yes i have and they said do you like them and i said no i i love them and she said the executive said that's great what do you love most about them and the only thing i think is anytime anyone from one of these movies is on like you know tonight show whatever they oh they kind of say the same thing oh the comedy it's accessible for grown-ups but appropriate for children so i said that she said that is the thing we were the most proud of so i so that night i had the meeting the next day i watched all three ice age movies back to back to back which you know in isolation each of those are wonderful charming family films three in a row it's guantanamo yeah but i went in the next day as passionate about ice age as anything in the world and that was ultimately the first movie i had made it changed my entire career i owe a tremendous amount to the people who hired me i think it's really important to remember with generals that like exactly they you sometimes have like a general that you think oh fine you know it was great and then a year later they remember you for something else so I think of them as just like I go in and just talk about my life because most of the time they've read something of yours and they like it and you're not you're there just to chat really and if they think that you've got some interesting things say then they might say oh we're thinking about you for this or that and I think that you can never really be fully prepared for anything in this job when I got hired on I got an interview I was working on a show called casual which is on Hulu and I had to binge watch 36 episodes of it like the entire first three seasons in the space of maybe four days or something before so like sometimes you're just I mean I didn't lie I did watch I didn't actually watch them but I think it's like you sometimes just have to be a bit you know flexible on that on that you're saying yes you're saying yes yes yes yes and yes and I

48:00John August:think we can do even more I think one of the things that really comes through too with this is that when they meet you in the generals, it's your life experiences as much as your talent. You're already in the door. They're already interested in you as a talented writer, but it's about what have you done other than write or in addition to writing that you might make you the perfect fit for the untitled glass bead thriller that they're writing. But, you know, but like being able to talk about, but being able to talk about experiences that I've had throughout my life was really what got me a lot of jobs, honestly.

48:33I think that and also not being a dick. Like Tess was saying, it is so much like dating. And you have to work with writers fairly intimately. And if they're annoying, when I was a development executive at Focus, there was a British writer who I loved. He was so talented. I had read everything he'd ever written. He'd made some TV shows. I made my boss read everything he'd ever written. We were so excited to meet him. And he came in and was just the worst. He was arrogant and like annoying and angry and bitter and just all kinds of bad. And both of us just said immediately, like, we'll never hire him, even though we would be lucky to have him.

49:11And he was great. Just couldn't do it.

49:16John August:Okay, so most of these clips, Craig, are coming from a time before Zoom. Yeah. And so maybe it's worth acknowledging that what's changed in the era of Zoom general meetings, Have you had general meetings during pandemic, post-pandemic, where it's like your meeting is an executive for the first time? Not an executive. I've had a couple of meetings where it's been like a matchmaking between me and an actor, for instance, something like that. Or maybe like someone you're going to hire on in a production role on your series. Yeah, which I don't think of as a general meeting because that's more... That's about a project.

49:46Yeah.

49:47John August:So let's think through what's different than the other stuff. Because there's going to be some chit-chat, some I like your work. tell me what's interesting. But there's not the in-person stuff. There's not the, you're not reading the body language. You're not getting a sense of your space, their space. What do you find that's been different since we've moved to Zoom for some of these things? Well, there's a convenience factor that works great. The worst part of general meetings was the drive. And you and I remember even pre-Waze and Google Maps where driving was just a crapshoot. So you don't really have to worry about being late anymore.

50:24and you don't have to worry about wearing pants and you don't have to worry about how you smell. And so a lot of the convenience factor is great, but also you are missing the only thing that kind of positively would come out of those meetings, which was that weird thing that happens between human beings in a room. Like you just get a vibe with somebody. And I am reminded constantly that in Zoom meetings, We are all mushed down flat into the same thing, same view, same vibe.

51:01John August:Yeah. What's also, I think, different in the age of Zoom meetings is that it used to be clear who was in the room. Like literally, like I'm facing across from you and sort of where the conversation is. And so I'm making out of contact with you because, you know, we are the most crucial people here. And if there is an assistant in the room or somebody else in the room, you want to include them but not over-include them. On Zoom, there's additional people in the room. Sometimes they have their cameras off. And so you're just not quite clear what's happening here. I find I'm a little less open in a Zoom general meeting because I just don't know if it's, not that I think it's going to be recorded, but I just sometimes talking to a person in person, I will be a little less cautious than I am on Zoom.

51:40Yeah, I think you can pick up on some things. Also, there's just stuff like the space you're in makes a difference. The fact that you're going to somebody for a general meeting, I think in a weird way, it also helps them because they're receiving somebody into their space and it makes them feel good and it makes them feel like you're coming to the mountain. And Zoom, everybody's just sort of, again, leveled. Everything gets very flat and leveled on Zoom. So you trade a lot of the potentially positive nuance of an in-person general meeting for convenience.

52:15John August:Well, certainly one of the bonuses of a Zoom meeting, though, is we get to see Lauren's cat who wants to keep walking in front of the camera, which is great. That's fun. I know from other meetings that Lauren has a cat who loves to be on camera. And that's great. It's a thing to talk about. One thing that has not changed is the importance of general chit-chat as we sort of start into a general meeting. So we have, I think, two clips here that are about the chit-chat of us. Lauren, help us out. Our next clip from episode 517 comes from a bonus segment where a listener asks about staying up to date with current shows and movies.

52:49This is actually a very underrated part of Generals. I think I've been asked about what I'm currently watching in every job interview I've ever had. People are trying to get a sense of your taste when they're considering you for a job. Which is silly. Like, oh yeah, I really like Christopher Nolan's work. Oh, cool. So can you do that? No.

53:09John August:It's so silly. But at the same time, it's a thing to talk about. And so it's better than the weather. I mean, honestly, marginally, marginally better than the weather. One thing we've talked about on the podcast, Craig, is that conversation needs to have doorknobs. And like, it's a doorknob. It's something to hold on to that you can then like hand off to somebody else. It's a way to talk about a thing. Yeah. What else do we have, Lauren? Then we go to episode 417, where Script Notes VIP, Aline Brosh McKenna brings up a good point about how much you should share about your ideas in a general. Off of that idea, we go to episode 395, where you both address the dreaded topic of free work that can often come out of a general meeting.

53:51You meet with someone who's excited about an idea, but wants you to develop it further without committing to anything. What do you do?

53:57John August:Wow, I want to know what our advice was. So let's take a listen to these three clips. I'm sure we said that would be great. So Owen asks, On the podcast, you and your guests often discuss and reference contemporary shows and films. It seems as though, despite your incredibly busy schedules, you're always up on what's being released and what's coming soon. My question is, do you make an effort to ingest new content in order to stay current on what's being written? Or do you end up watching new releases simply because you love watching them? Finally, does that content ever make you feel pressure in regards to your own work?

54:30Or are you beyond that as creators?

54:32John August:You're never beyond the feeling of pressure. They're like, oh, I wish I would have done that or I'm not up that level. You never sort of get past that. I would say when I was back in film school, I would try to watch every new movie that sort of came out. And so Variety would publish each week like the 60 top grossing movies and I'd mark to see how many of the top 60 I'd seen. I would at least have seen 20 out of 60, but generally 40 out of 60. I'm nowhere near that level now. And so I don't sort of keep up with everything. But in terms of television, I keep up with just like, what are the water cooler shows?

55:00John August:What are people on Twitter or people that are on my Twitter are talking about because I want to be able to engage in that conversation. So I may not watch everything, but I'll certainly watch an episode or two to see what it is so I have some sense of what's out there. And I think that is an important thing for anybody who's trying to write in this medium is to get an understanding of what other folks are doing out there and what the conversations are because those are the things you're going to be talking about if you're going into a general meeting someplace. It's like, what are you watching?

55:26John August:What are you loving? What are things that are working for you? Yeah, you're going out on some meetings now too. Do you find you're often talking about the stuff that you're watching? Yeah. And I think even before going out on generals, just living in LA, you have to be up on that. Otherwise, you can't socialize with people. Well, it's like, you know, if we're in DC, you would be talking politics. If we were in Nashville, you'd be talking country music. It's just the thing that we talk about here. And so it's natural. Even in this lockdown year, the conversation still somehow gravitate around that.

55:55Yeah, I guess because it's like the only thing people are doing. so one thing i would say for aspiring writers when you are breaking in and you start to get those round of general meetings they're going to say to you what do you want to write is there an article is there an idea what do you have wait a second get to know this person have a nice general meeting just chat in general about their movies hope you bump into them don't give your uh babies because that's in the beginning you know anybody who wanted to meet with me i'm more a reticent person. So I would meet someone in five minutes into it.

56:29They would say, do you have, you know, what is something you've dreamed of writing your whole life? And I would think I just met you. I don't know if I want to entrust you with that, but I've seen young writers often. They're just so excited to be in a meeting with someone that they take one of their idea babies out of their suitcase. Not a good place to keep babies. Um, and they start, they give it to someone, they give it to someone and then they're that that's where it loses its momentum. So if you have something that's near and dear to you in the beginning, you might want to write it or wait until you find someone who's truly a champion.

57:02Because the other thing I was naive about is people take these general meetings with you. They actually haven't read your work. And one of the funniest, I don't know if I've told this story on this podcast before, but I was in a meeting in my first, very first round of general meetings. And while I was sitting there, an assistant walked in and said to the assistant, said to the executive, I have that coverage on Jersey angel you wanted. And I was so dumb that I didn't know that that was she hadn't read it and was taking the meeting as a favor to my agent. And so that was a person saying, gee, what are your hopes and dreams?

57:32And give me those things that reside in your soul who hadn't actually read my script. So just...

57:41John August:So I'm taking a lot of generals right now because there's just a bunch of folks who over the years I've never met or people, all executives moved from one company to another. So I'm just taking the generals now. And I found that, granted, I'm not at the beginning of my career, but I will generally go into those meetings with some sense of like, okay, these are the kinds of things they might be looking for. And so I might not pitch a specific story, but I'll pitch like, this is a story area that I'm really interested in. Like I just read an article about this thing. And I think it's probably a great movie to be made that is sort of, you know, that's looking at the reality of this, but also pushes it into like this fantasy aspect.

58:15John August:And so those are helpful things to have as you go into those things. Just give them a sense of like what your taste is and what's interesting to you. And a lot of times I really am pulling some stuff out of the old, you know, idea suitcase. Like I've always wanted to do something with this place or like this old idea, I realized now in 2020 is actually more about this. And that is a point of discussion. So a deal I'm making now was out of one of those general meetings where I had an old thing, but like, I realized like, oh, actually the way you make this story now in 2020 has a whole different valence.

58:48Nicole asks,

59:17I think meeting's wary. Is there something I can do to keep their interest without just handing it over? Do I request a second meeting to talk through it in person and then leave with it? My fear is that if I don't hand it in, the conversation will be over with them. What would you do in my position? You were the perfect person to ask this question, John August, go.

59:35John August:So we have this campaign in the WJ, no writing left behind, reminding writers that when they go in to pitch on a project, when they go in for those meetings, they might have notes for themselves. Don't leave those notes behind. It hurts you. It hurts every other writer. But Nicole's situation is not quite that situation. So let's talk through the distinction. Nicole has an original idea. She ended up sort of half-pitching this original idea at this animation company. And now she's wondering like, oh, I'm going to write up this whole treatment. Nicole, you own that treatment. You own everything.

1:00:03John August:You own 100 % of this concept. So if you feel like writing this up as a treatment or a full script, you can. You may. You own every little piece of it. Now, is the best choice for you to show them that treatment or to go in and pitch it to them in person? I don't know. Animation does have a lot of stuff that ends up being written out, and that's fine and good. So maybe that is. But I want to just distinguish it in a general sense. You own this fully, and that is not the kind of problem we're trying to solve. The problem we're trying to solve with writing that behind is when they've called you in for a project that they own and they're asking you to write up some stuff and leave it behind.

1:00:42John August:That's the real danger here. What do you think? Well, another thing to point out, one of the big animation studios equals not WGA. It is either going to be an animation guild shop or it's going to be a non-union shop. So the Writers Guild can't help you here. I think that the problem I'm having, Nicole, is that they asked you to do this. That to me feels like kind of a weird one. They love your idea. So they say, and they have asked you to write a treatment. You've written a treatment. John is correct. You own that treatment, meaning you own the unique expression in fixed form there. You don't own the idea because people can't own an idea.

1:01:24So you may very well, you know, if you consider your idea to be unique, you may find that they're developing something with the same idea a year from now. These things happen. But I am also wary of you leaving this work behind for sure because you haven't been paid for it and you should be paid as a writer to write. I think pitching it might be the way to go. I think you could give them a tease. you can say, look, I can show you a little bit and then there's much more, but let's formalize it and let me come work here and write this script. It costs them nothing to ask you to do this and it costs you time and energy and talent to do it.

1:02:08So just keep that in mind. Their request has cost them nothing. They have no skin in the game.

1:02:14John August:This is where I jump in to remind everybody that just because most animation is not covered by WGA does not mean that all animation is not covered by WGA. So increasingly, there are shops, there are places where you can get WJ deals. So just don't take it as a default assumption that you will get a non-WJ deal at a place. If Nicole has not worked any place and doesn't know, it's more likely than not it's a non-WJ shop. But don't assume that it has to be a non-WJ situation. Either way, I think what we're coming down to is this is your idea. You own copyright on it, independent of anything else.

1:02:45John August:If you feel like sharing it, you can share it. That's totally your choice. Maybe they'll look at that as a writing assignment. They want to hire you in to work on some stuff for them. Okay. But I'm also with Craig in the sense that they're asking you kind of to do something for free, even though you own it fully. So just always be aware of that. So let's wrap up our water bottle tour of general meetings by hearing from one of our most beloved, people, producer Meghana Rao. Yeah. Yes. In episode 378, you interview Meghana about her first water bottle tour as a writer, which should be a helpful perspective for our listeners.

1:03:24You also discuss what kind of follow-up is appropriate after a general.

1:03:29John August:Right now you're at a phase that I remember very distinctly when I was first starting because you're going to a lot of general meetings and a lot of sit-downs and, hey, how are you? And you're doing the water bottle tour of Los Angeles where you go in. And I guess actually you're not going to people's offices, you're meeting for coffees. Like how are you doing these general meetings? Somewhere for coffees, but I think because of the pandemic, mostly Zooms. Mostly Zooms. So I think my first agent did, which I think was a smart choice. He just sent me out and like, he just shotgunned me out into meetings.

1:03:54John August:Which is like, took way too many meetings. And you just get better at taking meetings. And so it sounds like your meetings are growing well, but you're having a hard time figuring out like, what's the next step or like how to go from like, oh, that was nice in the room, but will I ever work with this person again? Right, right. And the thing that I am sort of looking to decode is like, you know, when you go on a date and there's, you're like waiting to hear what the last thing the person says. it's different if they're saying, hey, it was really nice to meet you or I had a really good time versus can I get your number?

1:04:25I'd love to see you again. And so what does that look like in the entertainment industry or like after a general meeting?

1:04:32John August:So as you wrap up the general, there'll be that sense of like, it was really nice to meet you, just a very classic thing. Like we should look for things to do together. Great. That's sort of the generic version. And like, it's not a brush off. It's just like, there's not a specific next stuff that they're looking to take. If they really were intrigued by you and sort of like, oh, I really want to talk to you more about this specific thing, they'll bring up that specific thing. Or if there's something that you sort of mentioned in the meeting and you were like, oh, we both really want to do something that's based on Norse mythology.

1:05:00John August:But then like, oh, let me send you this stuff and we can keep up that conversation. So sometimes those will happen at the end of a general or sort of a first meeting. Other times they won't. They usually have to be sort of comfortable with like, sometimes meetings are just eh. Like when I went over to Verve, you know, you were there for that. And I went out on a bunch of general meetings and a lot of them were just kind of like, so we now know each other. And so if down the road something comes up, they actually feel like they could come out to me for a project. And a lot of what you're doing right now is sort of that.

1:05:30So I guess also as a writer, like what responsibility do I have to follow up?

1:05:36John August:I think your responsibility to follow up with the good ones. The ones who actually think you were like, oh, I would like to work with this person. yeah it's good to reach out and it's like so that's a case where it's like hey could I have your email and or you can get your email from the agents to say like hey I really enjoyed meeting with you about this I wanted to talk to you more about these specific things or like this is a thing I'm working on that I'd love to talk with you more about I don't to me and people can disagree I don't think you have you owe a thank you note to a general meeting or or that kind of stuff it's just like if there was chemistry there's chemistry on both sides and it sort of is like dating.

1:06:10You don't have to send a thank you for dinner at the end of it. Yeah. Okay.

1:06:15John August:That makes sense. And something you're talking about at lunch was when you have a meeting with somebody and they, they've read something of yours and they start giving you notes on it. And that's, that's a weird situation. Can you describe it in a general sense, what it was like? Like, I feel like in a lot of meetings, there's like questions and, you know, constructive feedback or, or like nice, I'm trying to avoid the words in compliments, but like, Yeah, it's nice that they'll compliment my work. But then a couple of times they will have like specific notes or want to do like a follow-up call with notes.

1:06:46And the notes are great, but I'm confused about like whether I should act on them and like what that means. Because we don't have a clear plan forward.

1:06:56John August:Yeah. And that sort of gets back into the dating. Like, you know, are we actually trying to start a relationship here? Or are you just sort of like giving me constructive feedback because you think it could actually help this thing and help me as a writer? Yeah. And that's a case where your reps, your agents, or your managers can sort of help stress out like, is this a person who really think could do this project? Because if so, then maybe it's worth really investing the time with them and sort of working through that. If not, then it's just great to sort of get their feedback. And if you're getting consistent feedback on these things, you could consider making those changes.

1:07:26John August:But the stuff you have out there right now in the world is something that could get made, but it's really there as a writing sample for you to get hired for other jobs. So it should not be the primary focus is to be rewriting that stuff you've already been writing. Totally. Yeah. An experience I definitely had in those early meetings is they'll pull out a box of like, these are all the things I'm working on. And have they sort of presented that list of the things that they are working on? Yeah. And I'm always like, I mean, people are just so good at pitching their projects. It's like the most fun part of the meeting to just listen to all of these great stories.

1:07:57John August:Sometimes they're saying like, okay, we'd like to consider you for this thing. but other times it's just like, you get a sense of the kinds of things they're looking for. You really get a sense of like, what things are going to spark for you that are really priorities for them and how you can sort of like, keep that conversation going about like, oh, this is the thing we want to see happening together. You'll also be in some meetings where you're just like, this is not a fit. And the meeting should just end, just like that date.

1:08:24John August:It is always so good to hear from Meghna. And also because people grew up with Meghna. Like Meghna showed up in this town, kind of not knowing much about the industry and learned while she was a producer here and is now a writer in this town. So this was her experience getting started as a writer during those general meetings. And Lauren, this was delightful. Thank you so much for putting this compendium together. So you had to dig through a lot of transcripts to find all these things and find the clips and the ins and the outs. So thank you for that. And thank you for being an amazing intern.

1:08:53John August:We're so happy to keep you on Script Notes going forward to help us out. Thanks, Lauren. Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully at the end of this episode, our listeners will feel educated, confident, and prepared for a general meeting of their own. Oh, I'm so sorry. All right, it's time for our One Cool Things. My One Cool Thing is a quote from Salman Rushdie back from 2022, but I first heard it a few weeks ago at the Sundance Labs this summer. I'll put a link in the show notes to the actual source of the clip or the transcription. But here is the quote. It's kind of long. so bear with me.

1:09:29John August:He's talking here about the role of writers in the state of world events. He says, how can we think of the future when the present screams for our attention? And if we turn away from posterity and pay attention to this dreadful moment, what can we usefully or effectively do? A poem will not stop a bullet. A novel cannot diffuse a bomb. Not all satirists are heroes. But we are not helpless. Even after Orpheus was torn to pieces, his severed head floating down the river Hebrus, went on singing, reminding us that song is stronger than death. We can sing the truth and name the liars. We can stand in solidarity with our fellows on the front lines and magnify their voices by adding our own.

1:10:13John August:Above all, we must understand that stories are at the heart of what's happening, and the dishonest narratives of oppressors have attracted many. So we must work to overturn the false narratives of tyrants, populists and fools by telling better stories than they do, stories in which people want to live. The battle is not the only battlefield. The stories we live in are also contested territories. So this is a great quote, a smart man writing about writing. Yeah, he's a pretty good writer. Yeah. That was pretty well done. Pretty well done, Seven Rashi. Not a controversial opinion. No. A smart person.

1:10:49Well, I've got nothing loaded up this week for one cool thing, but happily Lauren is coming in to fill that space. Lauren, what do you got? In the spirit of Greek mythology summer, my one cool thing is The Silence of the Girls by Pat Barker, which is a retelling of the Iliad from the perspective of the women. And also just feminist retellings in general, authors like Philippa Gregory, Madeline Miller, Jennifer Saint, Michelle Morin. If you enjoyed the Odyssey, but found it a bit male dominated, I highly recommend checking out some of these authors.

1:11:19John August:I love it. Great. Great. It's been fun having Lauren in the office and other folks to have Zoom debates about different translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey. I was surprised how contentious it got in our staff meeting museums. And so it's great to have this. And it's great to have someone who's reading the classics retold. I just love that that's what you guys are fighting about. That's what it is. Yeah. It's not sports in this office. It's all about the Iliad and the Odyssey. No sports ball. Nope. Not a bit. Nope. Well, thank you for this compendium episode. Script Notes is produced by Meredith Stedman, edited by Matthew Cilelli.

1:11:52John August:Obviously, a ton of work this week by Lauren Loesberg. Yeah, nice work, Lauren. Our outro this week is by Nick Moore. If you have an outro, send us a link to ask at johnaugust.com. That's also the place where you send questions that we often answer on the show. You'll find transcripts at johnaugust.com, along with a sign-up for a weekly newsletter called Interesting, which has lots of links to things about writing. The Script Notes book is available wherever you buy books. You can find clips and other helpful video on our YouTube. just search for Script Notes and give us a follow. We're also on Instagram at Script Notes Podcast.

1:12:23John August:We have t-shirts, hoodies, drinkwear. You'll find those at Cotton Bureau. You'll find the show notes with links to all the things we talk about in the email. You get each week as a premium subscriber. Of course, we love our premium subscribers. You make it possible for us to do this each and every week. That's why we have back episodes that you can pull from to create these compendium episodes. You can sign up to become a premium subscriber at scriptnotes.net. We get those back episodes and bonus segments like the one we're about to record on our own personal best and worst general meetings. Craig, Lauren, Meredith, thank you so much for a good show.

1:12:56John August:Thank you, John. All right.

1:13:17FOR END