Where did the 8 billion dollars go?

27:28It goes on like this, a series of questions that are pretty polite, not especially probing. Whatever doubts Michael Lewis might have harbored, he was not airing them here on stage at Sam Beckman-Fried's own conference. In the audience, amidst a sea of Sam's admirers, said Zeke. What were you thinking watching him? Because I feel like part of the subtext of what you're saying about seeing so many sort of notable people in the room is like, everybody wants to say that they knew everything was going to fall apart. But at least for me, when I suspected that it might, the other thing I would think is like, am I smarter than all these people?

28:02And I often felt like, no, I'm not. And if you're seeing like, I mean, you're probably like a better reader of the world financial system than Katy Perry, but like Bill Clinton is pretty bright. And Michael Lewis, I think he got this wrong clearly, but he's like a brilliant, brilliant reporter. What are you thinking? I mean, I don't think of myself as the smart person in the room, the one who knows everything. But I'm not questioning, did I miss something? At this point, like, I'm quite confident that there's not much to, like, any of these crypto things. So I'm just thinking, like, what am I supposed to do?

28:35Like, I'm hearing about all these asinine schemes, but, like, does anyone want to read an expose of them? Again, I had no reason to think that FTX was a fraud, But I was even more convinced that this was like an unsustainable bubble. But I'm starting to think, I don't know. If the number goes up high enough, maybe they'll make up some legitimate uses for crypto later. Like, I'm starting to feel like, what could pop this bubble?

29:04After the break, many things pop the bubble all at once.

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30:40Island. We'd started covering crypto a few months before, which means we began when the prices were extremely high, and we had a front row seat to the moment soon after when everything plunged. That April 2022, I'd just been to Bitcoin Miami, a 25 ,000-person festival dedicated just to the worship of a specific internet currency. The price of Bitcoin when I visited was about$42 ,000 a coin. Being there, then, was a hallucinogenic experience. Vivid, but scary. I'd met working people who'd plunged a lot of money into crypto, who were very confident, and who I felt worried for. Who knew what was going to happen, or when it might?

31:23On May 20th, just over a month after Miami, the hall began to crack. A currency called Terra exploded. Not too long after that, a crypto hedge fund called Three Arrows Capital went up in flames. That spring through the summer, it felt like every week something you'd never heard of fell down. On Twitter, longtime skeptics went viral making fun of the explosion. On message boards, people who'd lost money shared the numbers for suicide hotlines. Meanwhile, I just remember trying to make sense of it. It was confusing, but it was also exciting, like when the power goes out in your city. Until November, though, the system was still holding together.

32:02In no small part because Sam Bankman-Fried, backed by his company, FTX, was going around almost behaving like the government, using his money to bail out some weak parts of the system. And then, this very ominous news article was released, November of 2022. The crypto website Coindesk published what it said was an internal balance sheet from Sam Bankman-Fried's trading company from Alameda Research. The balance sheet, meaning the private document listing their assets. For this long moment, everyone in crypto just stared, trying to figure out what it was they were supposed to be seeing in these numbers.

32:42Again, here's Zeke. Essentially, no one knew what to make of this Coindesk article, which reveals that Alameda owns billions of dollars of stuff. And it's all these different crypto tokens. And one of the crypto tokens that Alameda had was called FTT. And FTT was this proprietary token that Sam had made up that related to his exchange FTX. It was sort of like a way, if you wanted to bet on just FTX, the casino, buying FTT, I know this is imprecise, but it was sort of like buying FTX stock. That is a perfectly good shorthand. It's essentially like thought of as FTX stock. So this article, people didn't know what to make of it.

33:33It was kind of like puzzling. So just to recap, because I think this part's a little confusing. Here is what everyone knew at that moment. Alameda Research, Sam's trading company, had been trading at FTX, Sam's exchange. This balance sheet shows Alameda Research's wallet. And instead of the billions of dollars everyone assumed Alameda Research had in that wallet, what was actually there was in large part just lots and lots of these FTT tokens. This would be like finding out that someone's wallet is filled with not money, but poker chips. Poker chips they themselves made at their own casino. Anybody else holding on to these tokens, which represented faith in Sam Bankman-Fried and FTX, suddenly they felt very nervous.

34:27CZ, who ran the rival exchange Binance, he reacted to this article and he said, I also own FTT tokens. I am now going to sell them. I do not want my FTT tokens anymore. which sets off this run on FTX. So customers who'd sent real money to FTX to gamble with were asking for it back because they were thinking, all right, I'm not sure something's wrong, but if something's wrong, I don't want to be the one who left my money at the casino. I just want it back for now. The problem was that the casino was gambling with the money. Yes.

35:13FTX customers who are trying to withdraw their money learned that they could not get their money back. The money was gone. Here's what had happened. According to two FTX employees, as far back as 2019, they'd been asked by Sam Beckman-Fried to write a secret piece of code into FTX's database. That code gave Alameda Research special privileges on FTX. Alameda could borrow essentially an unlimited amount of money to make bets on the exchange. And when Alameda lost on its bets, which it did, often, the company could just take customer money from the casino, from FTX, to buy back into the game. When all of this became clear, it was obvious to pretty much anyone paying attention that this was going to end with someone in jail.

35:58The most likely candidate? Sam Bankman-Fried. November 30th, just a few weeks after this blow-up, Sam had a pre-existing commitment to appear at the Dealbook Summit, this New York Times event where he was supposed to be interviewed by star reporter Andrew Ross Sorkin. In the span of about one week, Sam Bankman-Fried went from a billionaire, the white knight of the crypto world, and running one of the largest exchanges to what some people think has become a wanted man. Sam had been posting online a lot, but it was pretty hard to imagine he'd videoconference in so that he could be grilled by a reporter in front of a live audience.

36:37And yet, there he was. Sam, broadcasting live from the Bahamas. He's alone in a corner, fidgeting under apology video lighting. Clearly, I made a lot of mistakes or things I would give anything to be able to do over again. I didn't ever try to commit fraud on anyone. I was excited about the prospects of FTX a month ago. I saw it as a thriving, growing business. I was shocked by what happened this month. Andrew Ross-Dorkin will spend the next hour peppering him with a series of increasingly exasperated questions. You can tell he wants to get an admission of guilt somehow. At one point, he pitches an analogy designed to make Sam admit that what he did was just simple theft.

37:25If I worked at a bank and was a bank teller, and I decided to leave the bank at the end of the evening and take the cash that I ostensibly had access to, even if I intended to bring it back to the bank later, even with more money to give them back, I still stole the money. I mean, look, I wasn't running Alameda. I didn't know exactly what was going on. I didn't know the size of their position. A lot of these are things I've learned over the last month that I learned as I was sort of frantically digging into this on November. Sam Bankman-Fried is saying, I didn't know that my crypto trading company had lost a ton of money on a bunch of bad bets.

38:07In fact, I didn't know because I was intentionally not paying attention, because I didn't want to create a conflict of interest. If this were true, it would mean that Alameda Research, Sam Bankman-Fried's company, had stolen money from FTX, also Sam Bankman-Fried's company, without his permission and without him noticing. But I haven't been running Alameda. I haven't been, you know, thinking about its finances. I haven't been, you know, making those decisions. But, you know, as CEO of FTX, it was still my duty to make sure that someone was doing diligence. I was a large owner of it. That is true.

38:47Part of what made this story hard to believe is that the person running Alameda Research was someone Sam knew pretty well, Caroline Ellison, his sometimes girlfriend. One reason that I didn't really believe the story that Sam was trying to say about where this money went, his ex-girlfriend and top lieutenant, Caroline Ellison, who had been in charge of the hedge fund side of the operation, in November, after FTX had collapsed, there were a couple days when it looked like Binance was going to save FTX and everybody was in the clear. Oh, right. Yeah. CZ was like, I'm going to look at their finances and then I'll make a decision.

39:30But like, it looks like they would essentially do a bailout of their competitor. Yeah. And so she thought she was getting a bailout. And she called a company-wide meeting of everyone on the hedge fund side. And at this meeting, she basically told everybody her version of what had happened. And what her version was, was that Alameda had essentially run out of money, and they had made the decision to keep Alameda going by borrowing the FTX customer funds. And that she discussed this with all the top people at the company. Sam had made the decision. They'd done it on purpose. And more recently, the prosecutors have obtained a tape recording of this meeting.

40:17And they published not the tape itself, but a transcript of what Caroline said. Oh, wow. Here's what she said. Starting last year, Alameda was kind of borrowing a bunch of money via open-term loans and used that to make various illiquid investments. Then with crypto being down, the crash, the credit crunch this year, most of Alameda's loans got called. And in order to, like, meet those loan recalls, we ended up borrowing a bunch of funds on FTX, which led to FTX having a shortfall in user funds. Then she said, I guess, like, then, yeah, what does this mean? I guess mostly I want to say, like, I'm sorry.

40:59This really sucks. It really sucks for all of you guys. I think it's, like, really not fair to you guys. Like, I think you've been doing a great job. You've been working really hard. She's saying, we didn't tell you that we stole customer money and bet it and lost it. And then she's apologizing the way a friend in college apologizes for eating something out of your mini fridge. Yes. So, like, the people hearing this speech, right, they're very smart people. And some of them are like, wait, did she just tell us that we've stolen the customer money? And one of them asked, who made the decision on using user deposits?

41:37And Caroline said, um, Sam, I guess. So I think that this is going to be very tricky for Sam at his trial, because this is like a contemporaneous record of someone who thought that no one would ever find out, basically admitting that they'd made this decision to dip into the customer funds, which is a crime. They're admitting to a crime, and they're very clearly laying out who knew about it and who ultimately had decision-making power, which is Sam. Right. And you could now say, oh, Caroline and the other people who are going to testify about Sam, they're only doing it to save themselves. They'd say anything now to stay out of jail.

42:16But not with this. She said the same thing a couple months ago when she thought that everyone was going to be fine and no one would find out about any of this. Yeah. It's also just you hear the way she's communicating information and you think, I can't believe these kids were trusted with billions of dollars. It just never should have happened. Yes. So FTX is in bankruptcy, and the court has appointed a new independent CEO whose job it is to essentially take stock of what money is left and eventually distribute it to all the customers. This guy's name is John Ray. He was also in charge of the Enron bankruptcy, which was famously complicated.

42:59And Ray, after his initial look into FTX, testified before Congress. Mr. Ray, you have compared FTX as worse than Enron. Can you please elaborate on some of the specific ways FTX is worse than one of the largest corporate frauds in history? the FTX group is unusual in the sense that you know I've done probably a dozen large you know scale bankruptcies over my career including Enron of course

43:37every one of those entities had some financial problem or another they have some characteristics that are in common this one is unusual and it's unusual in the sense that literally you know There's no record-keeping whatsoever. It's the absence of record-keeping. Employees would communicate, you know, invoicing and expenses on Slack, which is, you know, essentially a way of communicating for chat rooms. They use QuickBooks, a multi-billion dollar company using QuickBooks. QuickBooks? QuickBooks. John Ray exhibiting true disgust. Not even for the magnitude of the alleged crime, but just the sheer sloppiness of it all.

44:20They were approving expense reports with slack emojis. You get the sense that John Ray, an older gray-haired man in a Navy suit, is perhaps nostalgic for the days of Enron. You know, Enron was a different company. Crimes that were committed there were highly orchestrated financial machinations by highly sophisticated people to keep transactions off balance sheets. This is really old-fashioned embezzlement. This is just taking money from customers and using it for your own purpose. Not sophisticated at all. Old-fashioned embezzlement. This is just taking money from customers and using it for your own purpose.

45:03Not sophisticated at all. In January of 2023, Sam Bankman-Fried is arrested. From crypto king to criminal suspect, Sam Bankman-Fried's stunning fall has just gotten worse for him. One of the most powerful people in the cryptocurrency industry, Sam Bankman-Fried, arrested overnight in the Bahamas. The federal charges just unsealed. The charges against a 30-year-old former billionaire include wire fraud, wire fraud conspiracy, securities fraud, securities fraud conspiracy, and money laundering. Nearly everyone around Sam Beckman-Fried, the friends he started FTX and Alameda Research with, have turned on him.

45:44They are cooperating with the government. In some instances, they've taken their case against him directly to the press or to Twitter. Many questions about him have been answered. But again, not the one I was most curious about. $8 billion is missing from FTX. Money that belonged to customers. That they were storing on the exchange because they wanted to invest in or bet on crypto. $8 billion gone. Where?

46:14After the break, Zeke helps us understand.

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47:46Welcome back to the show.

47:50Sam Bankman-Fried's criminal trial begins in a few days, October 3rd. Besides the government, Sam Bankman-Fried will be fighting several class action lawsuits from former customers. There's also, separately, FTX bankruptcy proceedings, where newly appointed CEO John Ray, the one who sounds nostalgic for Enron, is going through the company QuickBooks, trying to piece together what happened here. All of these court proceedings will generate more clarity, more answers in time. But here's what we know now about the pipeline that took billions of dollars, ran them through Sam Bankman-Fried's companies, and turned those billions of dollars into vapor.

48:28Here is the picture drawn by the government's allegations. It's 2022. FTX is flying high, and I decide I want to buy some crypto. And I want to buy it on FTX. I send the exchange$100. In return, I get some crypto. FTX takes a fee. And now, when I visit the FTX website, I can just see it. I can see my crypto. I can imagine that it's just sitting there, which is what I've been told. But that's not true. Instead, according to the government, FTX was stealing that crypto, which they'd promised to hold for me. Some of it went to Alameda, where the company used it to cover its bad bets. Other money went to cover FTX's own business expenses, some of which were questionable.

49:13That, broadly, is how the government alleges over$8 billion in customer money got illegally spent. But I was curious, spent on what exactly? And Zeke says we do have some partial answers here on where customer money went. So first, it gets thrown into a big pile with the rest of the company's corporate funds. Then it gets spent in all sorts of ways. We have divided that spending into four buckets. Bucket one, connections. Sam Bankman-Fried, through his companies, spent a lot of money buying friends and political allies. Although it took Zeke some time looking at these documents to understand exactly what was going on here.

49:54So, digging into it, the biggest chunk of where the money went was Alameda, the hedge fund, had sunk tons of money into illiquid investments. And what that means is, like, kind of obscure investments that would be hard to liquidate. And I'll just give you one of the craziest examples. So, at the Super Bowl, Sam had gone to a party at this guy Michael Keeves' house. Michael Keeves is a former Hollywood talent agent who's a super connected guy. He knows Bill Clinton. He took Sam to the Super Bowl with Katy Perry and Orlando Bloom. Sam was quite taken with this Keeves guy and his ability to introduce Sam to famous people.

50:42And with apparently very little due diligence, Sam's hedge fund, Alameda, sent Kives$700 million for Kives to invest in other stuff. But Kives got$125 million personally for his ownership stake in this investment firm. Like it sounds like someone just paying someone to be his friend. I mean, it kind of does. And Sam talked about this. He called Keeves something of a one-stop shop for relationships that we should utilize. So one place where Sam spent nearly a billion dollars alone was just on his relationship with this one person, Michael Keeves, a former Hollywood agent who knew a lot of celebrities.

51:32Keeves actually helps at least partly explain another mystery, which is why so many celebrities were in Sam's orbit and why he was in theirs. And I have to say, from one point of view, investments like this one were actually pretty smart. The celebrities got FTX attention, which got the company more customers. Those celebrity endorsements also made FTX seem safe. I remember last February, Katy Perry, the singer, posting on Instagram this joke about how she was quitting music to become an intern at FTX. Keeves was valuable to Sam because he'd introduced him to Katy Perry and to a lot of people like her.

52:07So bucket one is just an old American pastime. Rich nerds using their money to make famous friends. This brings us to bucket two, which is a big bucket I'm going to call gambling. Coins like Solana, SRM, Maps, but also they bought a bunch of bored apes. They bought into this company called Stepin that paid you in crypto for walking. They bought into Axie Infinity, a video game where you could earn real crypto by playing. It was popular as a job in the Philippines until the price collapsed. Sam at the time presented Alameda Research as just an investment firm, but Zeke has a cynical theory about what might have been going on here.

52:47It could be seen more as like, we need to keep this crypto thing going, so we need to support the crypto world by investing in, like, everybody. Because, like, your view as a person who covers financial fraud is that most or all of crypto is a series of pump-and-dub schemes. In that theory of the case, a few billion more dollars got vaporized with them being like, we need to make sure that the pump of every pump and dump is a big spike. And then, like, all these people will come into the casino to get into all these little scams, and we'll get the money back from them. Yes. So when I flew down to the Bahamas after the collapse and I was interviewing Sam on this like marathon interview, he revealed to me that there was one thing that he had misled me about the first time he was willing to admit to.

53:36So he had said my net worth is around$20 billion and it's mostly based on the valuation of FTX. FTX. So he's like, most of my wealth comes from my offshore casino, and it's a very valuable offshore casino, but that's where my interests lie. And what he said is that actually, on paper, at that time when I was meeting with him, he was worth more than$100 billion. And this was all at his hedge fund, Alameda, which just had huge stockpiles of all these crazy coins. So his interests actually were more aligned with keeping coin values high than I had thought. Because he had two businesses. He was in the running the casino business, and he was in the gambling at the casino business.

54:29The gambling side was much more important to him than I had known. Which is crazy because the casino was a really good business. Like, he could have just done that. For sure. And like, even now people trade crypto every day and there would be money to be made in running the crypto casino. Okay, so a chunk of it gets vaporized on a bad investment that might be about making friends in celebrity world. A large chunk of it gets vaporized by gambling across crypto, which is just sort of the definition of an unhedged bet because the whole market tends to rise and fall together. What else do we know about the money?

55:06So they went on this real estate spending spree in the Bahamas. Ah, bucket three. Sam, Bankman, Freed's companies also lost their money the way so many Americans do, spending too much money on real estate. They spent$243 million. They bought 30 properties, including the$30 million penthouse in the Albany Resort, which was called the Orchid Penthouse. And that's where Sam lived with his other top lieutenants. And this is, I should say, this would have been the home of the alleged polycule. Right. I do not think there was any polycule. These are like college kids essentially living in a dorm. Of course, some of them are going to like date each other.

55:51Yes. Yes, that's my read on as well. Although, like in this sort of like gap between like how Sam presented himself and who he was, the$30 million penthouse was like a nice asterisk on, I sleep in a beanbag chair all the time. It's like, I sleep in a beanbag at work when I'm not going home to like a very nice penthouse that I share with some friends and my sometimes girlfriend. Definitely. So those are the three buckets of spending that, if not frivolous, at least ran counter to the story Sam Bankman-Fried told, which is that he was earning to give. But there There's a fourth bucket, the actual charitable giving, the supposed point of all this.

56:30So what did Zeke find there? He did give a fair amount of money to charity. Oh, he did. Like more than me. And Sam and I, when we were sitting together, this was the thing that he seemed most broken up about when we were talking. I read him some tweets that his mentor, Will McCaskill, the founder of the Effective Altruism movement, had put out around that time. And Will had essentially said, if what I'm hearing about FTX is true, Sam Bankman-Fried has betrayed our movement. Like, I disown him. And Sam was trying to say to me, I feel so bad. Like, this is such a powerful movement. It's going to hurt the movement that I'm associated with it.

57:14And, like, I really did try my best. I really did give a lot of money to charity. And we were tallying it up there. And if you were being really generous in what you counted as charity, you could almost get to a billion dollars of charitable donations. But that includes$500 million or so that he invested in an AI startup, which he counted because he believed they were going to develop good AI, and that would somehow make it possible to stop the development of, like, the evil AI which threatens our civilization. A minor quibbly fact check here, not on Zeke, but on Sam Beckman-Fried. He may have invested the money in an AI company to fight the evil future AI, but this was a traditional investment, not a charitable donation.

57:58But still, whatever. Let's count it. And then, similar to how he invested in, like, every crypto startup, he seemed to write a check for, like, anyone associated with effective altruism who asked him for money. He gave a$300 ,000 grant to an individual to write a book about how to figure out what humans' utility functions are. That's an amazing book advance for a terrible idea. Yeah, we got to wait for this to come out and we'll know he got$300 ,000. And even better is the foundation gave a$400 ,000 grant to an entity that made animated videos on YouTube about rationalism and effective altruism.

58:44Jesus. So you got these like bad investments, you got real estate, you've got donating money to charity. No, I will also say a lot of this stuff Sam wouldn't really dispute. Like, when I sat down with Sam, this was my question to him. I was like, where did this$8 billion go? And he wasn't really disputing that all this stuff had happened. And he even said he lost another billion on what he called fuck-ups. And that he'd spent$1.5 billion on expenses. I mean, they were supposedly chartering a jet to fly their Amazon packages in from Miami. But if you believe that you're like the heroes who are going to save the world, Anything that enhances your productivity can kind of be justified.

59:28I mean, that's how I, like, justify cabs that I shouldn't do. Like, I know that internal voice is like, well, this is worth it because if I get this work done. It's just crazy to hear it at the billion dollar level.

59:44So where did the money go? Here's the final tally, a summary of Zeke's reporting. Over$5 billion in investments. some of that connections, a lot of it in crypto bets and acquisitions. A quarter billion on real estate, a billion on charity if you squint, a billion on fuck-ups, a billion and a half on expenses. The company had about 300 employees. And then, actually didn't mention this, but another measly$2.5 billion buying out rival company Binance's stake in FTX. All of this adds up to actually over$10 billion. Again, that's a mix of customer money and the company's money. It is, as the SEC likes to say, commingled money.

1:00:28Zeke says that eventually a more comprehensive breakdown will come out of bankruptcy court, but this is the best available estimate based on the information we have right now. When you look back at Sam and your conversations with him, and you look back at what is now publicly known, like, what is the picture for you that emerges of him? Like, do you think he was just a money-hungry scammer? Do you think he was somebody who was kind of a gambling addict who believed he was doing it for charity? Like, what level of honesty do you think he was? So I may be too committed to my original thesis, but I do think that he wanted to make money and give it away.

1:01:09And that him and his top lieutenants became convinced that they were essentially the heroes of their own sci-fi movie. and that their ability to make billions was the only thing standing between humanity and, like, the invasion of the killer robots. You mean literally, like, that was one of the effective altruism ideas was that one of the most important threats to defend against was an evil AI. Yes. And, like, by making billions of dollars and giving it to the right researchers, there was some non-zero chance that they could save the world. So if you really believe that and you are presented with this choice, admit defeat, go bankrupt, don't make any money to give away, or take the customer's money, gamble with it, hope that the number goes up and we can make it all back, and we will potentially still be in a position to make all this money and give it away.

1:02:07Put in those terms, that's the better choice. God. So I think, like, that's what made him so dangerous and willing to take risk was that he did really believe in this stuff. It's also funny because if the question about him for most of this time was, like, is he just a greedy person lying or does he have convictions? It sounds like he had convictions. He rationalized a lot of terrible choices in the name of those convictions. Had he just been greedy, everybody might be in a better position. Like, had he been greedy, it would have been, like, run the casino and make some bets. But because he convinced himself that if there's a 51 % chance in his mind of saving the world from killer robots or God knows what else, he should take insane bets and disregard his customers, his fortune, his own future.

1:02:54Like, if you're right in your read of him, his convictions made him more dangerous, not less dangerous. Yeah, I mean, even if there's like a 0.0001 % chance that you're going to save the world from killer robots, you should do whatever it takes. You know, because you're not just saving the current world. You're saving all the, like, trillions of people that would be born in the future, if not for the coming of the killer robots. Which is why some effective altruists have moved away from their original plan, which was, like, really, really observable charitable impact. Like, buying bed nets for people in Africa to prevent malaria.

1:03:35Yeah. They swung the total opposite direction and go for, like, really, really speculative things that might have huge impacts. I will say if in a few years we're all being hunted down by, like, artificially intelligent printers with knives or something, I will feel dumb for thinking that they have been dumb. Yeah, and I mean, at that point, we may need to break Sam out of prison. To run a new casino. I guess everyone would just give their money to stop the killer robots at that point. We would not need this convoluted mechanism to funnel money to anti-killer robot efforts. I don't think so. Zeke, thank you for talking about this and helping us understand where this money has gone.

1:04:20Thanks, Vijay. Zeke Fox. His book is called Number Go Up, Inside Crypto's Wild Rise and Staggering Fall. I, this year, will read every Sam Bankman-Fried book. I will enjoy every Sam Beckman-free book. Zeke's, I have to say, is the funny one. Just a very funny chronicle of what it was like for a skeptic to watch crypto rise and then to see it come down. I really recommend it.

1:05:04And Doug. Here we have the Lemu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Lemu? Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need at LibertyMutual.com. Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Savings vary. Underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts. Thank you.

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