Alison Roman Returns! The Acclaimed Cookbook Author Is Back

25:36Then again, that's like a very privileged thing to say like, oh, I don't feel like it. I don't want to, but it's more like that is the line of work that I've chosen. And for better or worse, that means that sometimes I don't earn as much money because I'm not working because I'm not writing because I don't feel inspired because I'm sad or whatever. But that's also why I have made an attempt to sort of diversify the ways in which I earn income and the ways that I use my brain. Because if I was only ever writing recipes, I would be so burnt out and I would not succeed long-term, I don't think. So I started the podcast.

26:08That's why I launched the tomato sauce. That's why I opened a store. But I think having this diverse job structure where I have all these different things that really fit together. It's like you need to buy groceries to make the recipes and then you read about them. Like it's like everything fits in the same ecosystem. So yeah, to answer your question, like the process of feeling inspired and moving in on that thing is sort of the same. And I'm pretty impulsive. And once I know something's right, I go for it. And I very rarely let it linger or sit on it. I think because I'm spending so much time sitting on it.

26:42And then once I decide it's time to go. I get that. Okay, so back in 2022, after a year of making home movies, CNN announced that they were making a new cooking show with you for their subscription streaming service. I saw you on billboards all over LA. Oh yeah. It was a time. I was very excited. I think you ended up shooting a whole thing that then they had a whole corporate restructure and it didn't end up airing, which sounds so annoying and painful. Can you talk to me a little bit about that process? And then how did that feel? Awful. It felt so bad. I had worked towards it for so long. And it was sort of like, is this happening?

27:19Oh my God, it's happening. And so it was a six episode, 30 minute show for CNN plus, which was their streaming service platform. And then we had already shot the first season. I had just shot the promo for this show, got a call from a man that I worked with at CNN. And he was like, I don't know what's happening. I'm just letting you know, they are totally shutting down CNN plus it's never going to happen. but anyway, all to say that, yeah, I think that a lot of people in TV and film experience this at least once or twice, three times, four times in their career. I just wasn't used to it because this isn't my industry.

27:53And I was like, you've got to be kidding me. I was just like, maybe I'll get back to the newsletter. But like, you know, I kind of put my life on hold for a year and to then not have it air kind of felt like I just went away for a year and had nothing to really show for it. And I learned a lot. It was a totally valuable, fantastic experience and I hope I get to do it again, but it was a total bummer. So once again, you learn that you have to rely on what you're doing independently. That's what I'm saying. The universe is like, we're just going to keep serving this lesson up apparently. 100%. And like, thank God.

28:28And I was so grateful for my YouTube channel. I was so grateful for my newsletter. I was so grateful for all of those platforms that I had spent time, energy, resources, building, even when I had zero followers or zero subscribers, like I believed in enough to invest in because it saved me. I think that's a good lesson for people when they're constantly focused on growth and skyrocketing and intensity from the second they launch of just like, it's okay to build something slowly and steadily because ultimately it's like a nest that you're building in like a true sense of the word where it's like, that's where you're going to end up.

29:00And that's where you're going to land. And you better make sure it's comfortable and plush and built just the way you want it. So I have to say when you announced your dessert cookbook, Sweet Enough, in early 2023, I was thrilled because I, to steal from my six-year-old daughter, I don't have a sweet tooth. I have sweet teeth. I've got a whole mouthful of sweet teeth. I was so excited about it. Talk to me about how that project came to be because you do not have a mouthful of sweet teeth. I do not have sweet teeth. I was a pastry chef as my first job in restaurants. So I learned from the best, I think, and synthesized what I learned over the years working in kitchens and what I knew of myself as like a home baker and working for the test kitchen and developing recipes for the home cook, like kind of smashed everything together and made what I think is like a really useful dessert book.

29:51Highly useful. Also, by the way, your yellow cake and chocolate frosting is our like standard birthday cake in this house. Oh, thank you. Do you think about that often? Like the fact that your recipes are the recipes that mark key moments in people's lives? I do. And I do not take that lightly. I like get very emotional when I think about it. And when people share those things with me, it's the highest praise. You know, people are like, oh, I no longer make my mother-in-law's brisket. I make your brisket. I'm like, I'm not trying to dethrone anyone or like ruin a family bond, but, but it's okay.

30:24I really think about that when I'm making recipes. And I think both Sweet Enough and Something From Nothing to me of all my books have like the two heaviest load of like classics. Like there's like an all-purpose sheet cake and a chicken pot pie. And like when other people sort of adopt that into their life, it's very validating. It means that my work is meaningful in some capacity because if I wrote a book of recipes that nobody liked or cooked from, what are we doing here? You know, I'd be like, well, what did I just do? What did I spend all that time and money on? But to have them be used as intended and they're really like living out their own life.

31:00Oh, I love it. Okay. So moving on to 2023 now, you made what is arguably your biggest departure yet and opened a grocery store called First Bloom. Talk to me about your vision for why you wanted to do this and where the idea came from. Yeah, I bought this building in 2020, upstate New York in a town called Bloomville. And I spent a lot of time in this area. I wrote dining in there. I shot dining in there. I wrote nothing fancy there. Really wonderful community of people that I just became really attached to and was spending time there and noticed that this building was for sale. And it was like a beloved pizza restaurant, Airbnb.

31:40I guess it was a pretty impulsive decision. I was like, I think I'm gonna buy this building and I'm going to turn it into a grocery store. I'll live above it and I'll have the grocery store below it. And like, that's my new life now. And that is sort of what happened. And I didn't move full time. I always had my apartment in Brooklyn, but then I met someone, I married someone, I had a baby with someone. And at the same time, like the store opened the week that I got married. I know. Yeah. And it was my birthday. How Virgo is that? I mean, extremely. I know. And what it started as the store versus what it is today, two and a half years later is a version of itself, but definitely different in a really good way.

32:21And it was sort of this like grand experiment of like, what would this be like? But at the same time, you know, I also thought I would be opening it as a single person living upstate and my life is just totally shifted. But part of the plan was always to like have this business that could survive and sustain itself. But it was a really crazy but good impulsive choice. I had always wanted to own a grocery store because I love grocery shopping. And I think that the experience is often really deadening. The lights are too bright and the music is bad and people are rude and everything is sort of generic.

32:53And I don't like having access to everything. I think that that shows lack of imagination. I will be paralyzed if I'm like standing in front of the cereal aisle being like, I don't actually know what cereal I want. Because of the area, there's like incredible produce. There's wonderful dairy, there's cheese, there's eggs, there's maple syrup, there's sausage, there's gorgeous onions and kale. And like things that I love cooking with are produced in that area. And then I can carry them and sell them to people that are visiting or that live there. To me, that's like a real love letter to the community, but also just the concept and ecosystem of cooking.

33:27Yeah. As you were putting this together and thinking about what to stock, were there any surprises? licenses. Yeah. The difficulty list is long and boring, but it's a lot of like any roadblocks for any small business owner of like permits. And there's 48 different licenses for like the exact business that you want to have. Because in my dream world, I was like, well, it's a place where you come and you have a glass of wine and a little snack and you get your groceries and you're on your way. It's like, well, you can't do that. Not in New York anyway. They make it really hard to open any small business in New York state, in my opinion.

33:58But I think that's probably true with most states, but maybe not. But the bureaucracy of all that is very tough. Okay. So I also want to talk about what we have also teased quite a bit, which is your own tomato sauces, which by the way, they launched in October, 2025. I got my hands on four cases in time for the holidays. I was very excited about it. Thank you so much for your patronage. I genuinely appreciate it. It was such a pain in the ass to get, and I appreciate your dedication. But look, like I'm also the target customer in the sense I was like, oh, this is hard to get. Watch me. I'm going to track it down.

34:32I wish it were a marketing ploy. I really do. It was just unfortunately how it went down this holiday season. I think because we weren't quite prepared for how well it would do, how successful it would be. And we make it in a really small co-packer, like 20 minutes from where I live. And it's like two guys and big open kettles make a tomato sauce basically by hand. And it's as homemade as you can get, I think, without actually me just making it, which is what I wanted and which doesn't always translate to efficiency. But the product, I think, is so fantastic and I'm really proud of it. And it felt like a natural extension because I had been making things like chicken broth and beans and tomato sauce at the store in Bloomville when I was spending more time up there.

35:15And then it just sort of became totally apparent that I couldn't keep up with demand and people would ask for it and I'd have to say no. And then I was like, you know what? I'm just not going to make it right now because I hate saying no. I hate saying we don't have it. I hate saying we sold out. And so I was like, we're taking a break and we'll come back to it. You know, then I got pregnant. Then I had the baby. It's like, when am I going to actually go back to making tomato sauce for like the 20 people a week who buy it? And I never advertised it. And I never advertised that I was making it, which was also kind of always part of the branding of First Bloom.

35:45I never wanted it to be like Alison Roman's First Bloom. I just wanted First Bloom to grow and become its own thing and its own personality away for me, like creating an independent child. I didn't want the success to depend on my success or me promoting it or being me, me, me. I wanted it to be the store. And so having the sauce as like the first product that I've ever made, because I'm like, well, why would you buy tomato sauce? You just make your own. And I genuinely feel that way. I still do because I make my own tomato sauce. You know, who doesn't is my husband. And you know, who is feeding me for several months was my husband.

36:19And so it's sort of like happened at the same time. We're like, okay, well, I can't make the sauce for the store anymore. My husband doesn't know how to cook. He came home with like a jar of something one day. And I was like, absolutely not. We're not doing that. And then I was like, well, why am I so against it? Why was my immediate response? Absolutely not. I didn't trust it. And I was like, well, this is really more marinara, not really tomato sauce. And I want tomato sauce. Anyway, so I looked into it and thought, okay, how hard would this be? And brought in this wonderful woman, Isabel, who basically had a lot of like CPG background and experience and like bringing things to life in this capacity, at least in a small scale, which at the time I was like, oh, it's just small scale.

37:01And her and me and my chief of staff, Narni, the three of us kind of did it together and that was it. And I self-funded it. And I'm not that in the red. I honestly think$15 ,000 in the red right now. And we have like productions lined up. And so I will make that money back. Yeah. That's like, to me, a very successful investment of my own money. I started First Bloom with my own money. Like every time I make money, I put it back into something that I'm making because I don't want to ask other people for money just yet. I guess that brings me to today, which is like, okay, well, if you're gonna do it, if you're gonna have this tomato sauce, it's successful.

37:38People bought it. It's sold out. Well, now what? It's like, okay, well now you need to make more. It's very, if you give a mouse a cookie. And so now we're sort of at the place where like, okay, are we going to seek out investment? Am I going to invest more money? How big are we going to grow it? But kind of like what we were talking about towards the beginning of this podcast about where like the middle-class businesses, like why is everything a$4 million cash injection? Seed round. Yeah. And I'm just like, what if we made something that's really good that everyone likes that you can buy and it funds itself and you're able to be creative with it.

38:10And I'm not like, I got to make like like eight more flavors and skews. And it's like, I'm not that interested in that. Like, I don't want to be stressed out by this. I want this to be a joyful, practical, useful product. And I don't want to be stressed out by it, which means I have to hire people to run the company for me. But all to say that it's like a very naive perspective to say, can't I just keep this small forever? Because not really. And you do kind of have to make the choice to end it and say that was a great experiment. I'm glad I did it or really go for it. put the money and time in and grow it and see what it's capable of because I really believe in it.

38:46And it has gotten me very excited about using my brain in a different way that I wasn't before. Alison Roman, ethical billionaire. I look forward to the day. Oh my God. Tell me about it. Are there any ethical billionaires? No, but you could be the first. There has to be a first. Why can't you be the sauce queen billionaire? Yeah. I just have never been that motivated by money because I didn't grow up with it. Like it didn't feel scary to not have any. It felt scary to not have any if I couldn't pay rent. Yeah. Yeah. All to say that like the goal has never been that. And sometimes I wonder, like, am I going to regret that?

39:18Am I going to regret not being like, I should have done that. And I would have made some like really smart business decisions, but I don't know if I would be as happy. And you don't have to answer that now also. Yeah. And like, I like money. I'm not anti-capitalist certainly. Cause obviously I'm doing a million ventures and they're profitable, but I don't know if that needs to be the driving force for everybody. And it feels like we are living in a world in a society where that is like the goal. I think it's just because there's been this like VC private equity bubble that's been going on. Yeah.

39:46Everyone feels like if you're going to do something, it has to be that. But like, by the way, people ran successful businesses for hundreds and hundreds of years before that was an option. It's also like, calm down. It's all a cycle. And ultimately, like you're living your life. So you have to enjoy what you're doing. Yeah. It's certainly easier to make things happen with money. You are less stressed out. Like you have more resources. You can just do shit. and so like I understand the appeal. I don't know. I'm like living in a fantasy where you can have it all. You can like be creatively fulfilled and have ethics and have money.

40:16But like why not? Why do we think we can't? Sounds cool. Also like if anyone's going to figure it out, let it be a woman. It probably will be a woman. It probably won't be me. Someone is probably much further along on this journey than I am, but I bet she will figure it out for sure. Okay. I also want to talk about something from nothing, which is your fourth cookbook that came out in late 2025. The polenta has changed my life. I want you to know that I trust you so much that I have never made short ribs before. Wow. I know. It just like never seemed like something I felt like tackling because you didn't like eating them or you just felt like they were too hard.

40:49I just felt like it took too long. And like, I don't know, it seemed complicated, but this is the trust level I have. I made your short ribs from that cookbook for Christmas Eve dinner, which is for my parents and my mother-in-law and my sister-in-law. High stakes. High stakes. It is so wonderful. Talk to me about making this cookbook. And also as someone who has had to create post kids myself, it's a very different process. So talk to me about what that has been like for you. I was not ready for that. And I think there's so much about having kids that people tell you about, but you can't know until you know.

41:27I had written cookbooks before. I had shot them. I had developed them. I had edited them. I had promoted them. I had done everything three times before this fourth one, but I had never done it pregnant or postpartum. And I did this book both. I shot it and wrote it primarily pregnant. I had like come up with the concept pre-pregnancy. So it wasn't a pregnancy book by any means, but it's like, I have to make this book now. And then the baby came a month early. And so before I had a chance to finish all my edits, I gave birth and then had to like jump kind of right back into it because of the deadlines.

41:59And that was very, very intense. I was like six weeks postpartum, like hooked up to a breast pump, editing and rewriting a lot. And if I had to guess, many women feel this way because women are incredible. They are absolutely amazing what they can do with their minds and their bodies with or without pregnancy or children. But there is like a superhuman thing that you're just like, well, I'm doing this. It was so hard. I thought it would be bad because I was tired or distracted or whatever, but I felt like my work was better than ever because I was like laser focused. And I was like, I have to finish this.

42:32I have to get back to doing nothing. I have to get back to recovering. I have to get back to being with my baby. And I like came in and was like, I know exactly what I want to say. I know exactly how I want to say it. I know what feels important to me. And I like wrote faster and edited faster than I ever have in my life. And I had an incredible book doula, if you will, who, in addition to my editor really helped me through some of like the chunkier texts and essays and things like that to like really make sure that everything was like tight in this book and no superfluousness. I didn't want any fluff.

43:05So it was in some ways the hardest thing I've ever done and also the easiest, but I do not recommend doing any of that work six weeks postpartum. Because even if you're not working on it until six weeks, you're thinking about it beforehand. It's lurking. It's lurking. And most people do not have the luxury of like taking a considerable amount of time off after they've had a baby. But for those of you that have jobs where you don't take them home with you, which is probably increasingly a small percentage of people these days. But I know people that are like, I took eight weeks maternity leave.

43:36I never got an email. I never talked to anybody. I didn't think about anything. And then I came back to work. Most people I know are not operating in that world. But when it requires creativity, that's when I felt depleted. It wasn't like the administrative part of work. It was the creative part where, I don't know, I felt like a different person. And so to come back to this manuscript that I had mostly written to then edit being like, I said that. And then some things I would just like change completely. I was like, well, I don't feel that way. Or like, I can't believe I said that. Or like, that doesn't sound like me.

44:06I can't believe how radically different I felt about some things. And it's pretty crazy. I just want to say like the efficiency of parenthood is something that radicalized me because for me anyway, and this is not like a pat myself on the back, but it helped me focus. You got to get in, get it done because there are other things that I want to do. And I just didn't have that before in the same way. And I do think that there's an efficiency that comes with deadlines and all of those things, but also with needing to get back to your real life. Yeah. It really is like a fat trimming exercise where you're like, I don't have room or space for like any of this extra stuff that doesn't need to be here.

44:45And that goes for the people in your life to the way that you spend your time to a manuscript of recipes. If it doesn't need to be there, if you don't have space for it, it's got to go. So for your fourth book, baby, was it received the way that you wanted it to be? Has the experience been similar or did it feel the same as earlier books? It's much different. I definitely toured it differently. And again, I think that has more to do with the ebb and flow of where we are with media, but also the first two times you're still like introducing yourself. Like this is who I am. This is who I am. So it's like a lot of basics that you're covering.

45:21By this point, it's, you know, my fourth book I've been around for a while. My first book came out eight years ago. So that's eight years of hearing about me, eight years of me producing content in addition to these cookbooks, not to mention all the work that I created before that. So a lot of people are either like, yeah, we get it. Or like, I know who that is already. Or like, oh, she loves anchovies, herbs. Okay. We get it. Exactly. Like, it's like not so novel. And I'm not like reinventing myself every 30 seconds to give you something to latch on to. I'm not like, well, now I'm this. It's like, well, I'm kind of the same.

45:52You know, I'm just like an evolved version of what I was before. But I think you could very easily read Dining In today and be like, that's the same person who wrote something from nothing. There's nothing that radically different. So on a press tour, what do you talk about? Like, what do you keep talking about? You know, this book had more of like a pantry focus. It was more sort of born from the way that I had been cooking at the time. I was spending more time upstate and there's less things available all the time. Shorter growing seasons, like no whole foods, like no grocery store for which to like get anything you wanted whenever you wanted.

46:23So you're really kind of cooking with the seasons, which means four, six months out of the year, cooking with onions and potatoes and lentils and canned tomatoes. And so that's largely reflected in the book and what can you do with the basics that feels interesting and new and exciting to you? And so of course we could talk about that, but like, otherwise it's so funny to be like, yep, it's me again. And by your fourth book, people are like, what are your top three pantry must haves? And like, who are your dream dinner party guests? And I'm like, I've been answering the same questions for eight years.

46:53I am not evolving enough to have a different answer every time. And I'm like, am I boring? Oh shit. I got to like mix it up. It's tough to talk about yourself constantly. And I sometimes wish we lived in a world where we could all just make the work, put it into the world, and that's it. But instead, we live in a world where we have to talk about the work ad nauseum to make sure that everybody hears about the work, and then we get back to making the work. So you want to be an Oscar-winning actress who doesn't have an Instagram. Yeah. How cool is that? I mean, that's power, right? To be like, I'm not going to participate.

47:27But they still do press tours, so they still have to participate to some extent. They definitely participate in a different way, but I think like on more of their own terms. But the sort of self evangelizing is tough. It was much easier the first two books because no one knows who you are. And you're like, yay. Yeah. And then by the fourth, I felt kind of sheepish. I'm like, oh yeah, I was still proud of the work, but I didn't want to talk about me. I wanted to talk about the book. Yep. I get that. Or in this case, your career, which I appreciate you doing. Yes. On that note, we asked the same three questions.

47:56You did this the last time. We close it out the same. It doesn't involve asking you about your favorite beans. So don't worry, but I'm going to ask them again. The first one is about mistakes because everyone makes mistakes in their career, but we tend to just give the highlight reel on Instagram. And I think it's important to talk about mistakes that we make because one, it reminds people that they can be resilient and that making a mistake doesn't mean that like everything is gone. And two, I think we tend to learn the most from our mistakes and less from wins. So on that note, can you tell me about a mistake that you've made in the last six years since last time we talked and what you learned from it.

48:33Yeah, I would say, I feel like all the time there's a mistake and some are really public and obvious and some are private and perhaps more intense. And I wouldn't erase anything that has happened in my life because each of those things, even if they were quote, a mistake has led me to where I am today, which is like a really wonderful place. And not to be like totally cheesy about it, but I genuinely feel that way about cooking where people are like, what's the biggest kitchen mistake you can ask? I don't really believe in that because every time I go to cook something and it doesn't work, I learn something.

49:06And then I teach you about that thing and we all win. I don't know. I think the most obvious answer is public scandal, that whole situation. And And I don't know, mistake is so negative. And we're also all human. And we all experience those things every day. And most of the time, nobody ever hears about it. But when people hear about it, it feels like a bigger deal. And it feels more embarrassing and it feels more intense. But I don't think it should be labeled a mistake, which feels like very damning. And I think that I try to like treat myself with a level of kindness that I hope to instill upon other people when we're even just talking about cooking, where it's like, oh, I fucked it up.

49:44It's like, no, you didn't. just scrape it off or, you know, next time do it that way or order pizza. Like we're all good. You said a tablespoon. It was really a teaspoon. It's not that big of a deal. Yeah. Sometimes. Okay. The cake is messed up and that was a mistake, but you know, we're going to live. I think it's all like reflection type things, but not necessarily mistakes. Fair. So a lot of the folks who listen to this podcast are in their first lives and they know that they want to make a pivot, whether that's in the same industry or elsewhere, or they want to expand into other areas and diversify their career the way that you have, but they're scared because it's a leap.

50:22It's a risk. Scary. They're scared because it's scary. Yeah. What advice would you give someone who's standing there on the precipice thinking about making that pivot or expansion in some way, but just hasn't done it quite yet? I think that, I mean, honestly, that would be a mistake to not do it. But I think that everything is reversible. Nothing is as big of a deal as you think it is. No one's paying as close of attention to what you're doing as you are. So if you're worried about making a mistake, if you're worried about what if I ruin my life by doing this thing, chances are you're not going to.

50:53Chances are everything is reversible. And chances are if you are at the place where you are even thinking about like moving across the country for a different job, leaving your field to like start school again, none of these things are a sure bet, but neither is staying exactly where you are. That's not a sure bet either. It's a false sense of security to stay where you are. And I think that if you are even slightly inclined to do something, which not everybody is, some people are like, wow, I've been at this job for 13 years. It's never occurred to me to leave. I'm happy. Great. Stay the course.

51:24No one's suggesting that you blow up your life if you don't have the desire. But if you have the desire to like do something radical because you know that there's something else, then you have to explore it. You owe it to yourself. And I think that if you do it for a year, you move to New York, you leave your job, job in finance to pursue something creative. I feel like it was honestly not what I thought it would be. It was not for me. Reverse it. Go back. You're good. Everything is reversible, I think. Last question. My favorite question, because it involves a time machine. And if you could get in a time machine and go back in time and give yourself some advice, what would you say?

52:02I would say, keep going. You're onto something, keep going. And I'm glad that I didn't know where I would end up. I'm glad that when I started working in kitchens when I was 19, that I would be here. I'm so glad. That was never the goal. I didn't know it existed. And I'm so happy and grateful for that because I would have like not been as happy or satisfied or focused on like the task at hand and the job that I had and the life that I was living. I don't want to always be looking to what's next. And so I think just keep going because there were some times where I was like, what am I doing? I'm moving to New York.

52:34I don't have a job. What am I doing? But like I did it. And that was so crazy, but it led me to here. And so I think just like a reassuring voice of like, you're going to be good. Keep going. Like you're good at what you do. You work hard. You believe in something. Keep going. Would have been nice at times to hear. I guess I'll tell myself that now as if someone's asking me in 30 years, what would I tell my younger self? So I'll tell myself to keep going. Keep going. Well, Alison, thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure to catch up with you again in this format. Obviously, I'm a big fan of everything you do.

53:11Congratulations. Thank you. And this was just such a pleasure. My face hurts from smiling, so thank you for that. It was so fun.

53:26That was bestselling cookbook author, Alison Roman. For more inspiring interviews with women like Alison, then head on over to secondlifepod.com where we have so many more for you to peruse. If you like today's show, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review us. We love seeing you spread the word on social. And now you can tag us in your posts. We are at secondlifepod on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. We always want to know who you're interested in hearing from on the show. So send in your requests to hello at secondlifepod.com, or you can DM us on Instagram.

54:06I'm at Hillary Kerr. The show is at Second Life Pod. Our DMs are always open. I'm Hillary Kerr, and you've been listening to Second Life. This episode was produced by Hillary Kerr, Summer Hammeris, and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Raven Yamamoto. Our audio engineers are at Treehouse Recording in Los Angeles, California, and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.