Beatriz de los Mozos: Founder and CEO of Flabelus

24:55Beatriz de los Mozos:And like that, I have my solution. And that was all. That's how it started. I love it. Okay. So from having an idea to actually doing something, what is the timeline between those two things? And you were still working your full-time job, right? Completely. I was working in Luminance. I actually was working a lot in Luminance. I had so many things going on. I had just been given the responsibility of a number of prospects in Singapore and to lead the Singapore team as well. So I was like, okay, I need to go to Singapore. So I was so busy. But then what happened was basically I started asking for samples.

25:31From different Spanish ateliers or manufacturers, or had you figured out which one you wanted to work with at that point?

25:38Beatriz de los Mozos:I didn't know anything. So I started calling companies basically. Great. And it was as simple as opening Google. And I was like typing, hey, companies that do spa drills. And the reality was there were a number of options. I started calling and everyone was saying, no, no, no. Ask the Italians, of course. There was one that came back to me and was like, you know what? Yes, I'm going to do it for you. And I was like, oh, that's easy. Obviously the first sample that arrived wasn't what I was expecting, but we started with the process of doing the shoe. And it wasn't long. In two months we had the shoe.

26:10Beatriz de los Mozos:So it was very quick. That's so fast. That was so fast. Yeah, I agree. For some reason, I was lucky enough because the factory was owned by a father that had two sons. In that year, the son, the older son had been given the responsibility of the sales department as like new role. So he was super enthusiastic about the development of the brand, of the factory globally. And when I called from London asking for this, because my number was UK based, so they were like, oh, someone from London, but it was me. And then everyone was like, wow, this is a cool new project. Because they didn't have enough volume on spadrills during the winter, they had to do homework.

26:51Beatriz de los Mozos:And it's sad for a factory that this expert in doing like spadrills have to develop a new line of business because they don't have enough volume. So they thought maybe this could be the option because it's for the full year. So let's give it a try. And I guess because I found a 37 year old, I mean, maybe a little bit older, maybe 40 something, thinking of like how to change the business for the bed there. Perfect timing. Perfect timing. I got the shoe quickly, you know. So was it just one shoe that you developed in the beginning? Only one shoe. Yeah. What did it look like for our audience if they don't know?

27:25Beatriz de los Mozos:Like a Venetian shoe. Exactly like a Venetian shoe. I was like, I want a Venetian shoe. And then they did a Venetian shoe with the structure of the spattery. I mean, for the audience to understand the Venetian shoe is a simple shoe, very nice, beautiful, made and with very nice handcraftmanship. And Flabelus is the same, but as if it went to the gym. That's the difference, you know? If you want to imagine, it seems like a little bit of a shape, whereas the other one is simpler because the way of doing it is simpler. That's the difference, you know? And are you still working? Yeah. Okay, so what happens next?

27:58How do you go from one shoe to the next step?

28:00Beatriz de los Mozos:So I had my one shoe and then I was in London about ready to receive it. And what happened was that COVID came. So COVID came. I was so sad. What happened with the pandemic was that the second they told me the shoe had been finalized, we were in Spain in case 10, something like that. Two days later, we were in Spain in case 10 ,000. It grew so quickly. And I was like, what do I do? I mean, my factory called me. I was like, Bea, you know what? We have to close most probably tomorrow because this is getting worse and worse. I couldn't travel to Spain because I wanted to travel and see the zoo myself.

28:37Beatriz de los Mozos:I was like, you know what? I'm so sad. I'm here alone. My job is not working very well because obviously who is going to buy an AI software in a global pandemic? No one was replying to our emails. Our bosses were like, please keep sending emails. And I was like, how can I send an email now in this situation? I mean, it's not possible. So what happened was that I called back the factory and I was like, you know what? I have some savings. And I'm willing to place an order. I don't know when this order is coming in, but I'm placing an order. So I placed 700 pairs, which was a bit crazy, but I was like, you know what, this is it.

29:11Beatriz de los Mozos:And then they told me, most probably we will deliver by the end of the summer. And I was like, no way. I mean, the end of the summer is super late. I cannot just risk it to the end of the summer. Because I thought it was a summer shoe. Flavelos proved me wrong. It's a super nice year old shoe. But at that point, I didn't imagine Flavelos as a winter shoe. I was like, what can I do? I started looking at options and I saw this Kickstarter campaign. For those that don't know what a Kickstarter is, it's this place where you just upload your project at lower price before it's produced and people buy it.

29:45Beatriz de los Mozos:And once they buy it, then they receive it three, four months later and they buy it at a very preferential pricing. So I was like, it sounds good. Let's do that. Kickstarter it is. I'm going to get some money. It's such a good thing because you are testing a product without having to spend tons of money and you're testing audience interest. Completely. But actually like funding it because people will put down money in advance to help fund products that they think should exist, which is cool. Exactly. The thing is, in my case, it didn't work like that. What happened was that obviously I didn't have pictures of the shoe.

30:20Beatriz de los Mozos:So I was uploading Venetian shoes and people were like, we go to Italy to buy this. No, they weren't buying. So I started texting all my family, all my friends. So obviously until then I had already got my friends and family that loved me. And even if they were tight or whatever and having a bad time at home, they supported me. That was very beautiful, but I was very far from the target I had set up myself. So I was like, you know what? I'm going to start sending the message and telling people I have this business. It's a way for them to know. and at the same time maybe they want to support taking into account i have the order i don't know when it's coming in and it's 40 euros it's not crazy so maybe who knows and it's at the end of the message and i have to say i was very annoying and people ended up putting the money i think they were thinking this girl she's a lawyer she's a salesperson she doesn't know how to do shoes these shoes are gonna be a disaster why would i buy one you know and plus we are in the middle of a pandemic, people are not having a good time.

31:25Beatriz de los Mozos:It's horrible everywhere. And why would I buy a pair of shoes, you know? And then I noticed that during that period, a lot of people were buying online because they had nothing else to do. And that's why I got, I think, my support. A lot of my friends thought, you know what, let's support her. Instead of buying something else, I pay 40 euros to Bea and at least I make her happy, you know? So that was very nice. I raised the 15k I was looking to race and I sold more than 300 shoes. And that was great because when the shoes came in, the 700, I was able to already ship all these shoes all over Europe because my friends had moved from London to their summer locations, to their houses, to their countries.

32:07Beatriz de los Mozos:It was amazing to see suddenly a lot of Greek people wearing my shoes because one of them had bought them and recommended me when they came in because they got surprised with the quality. They weren't expecting such good quality, especially coming from me. I had no clue of what I was doing. That's how everything started, I guess. That was my first marketing campaign. That's amazing. I love that. Okay. So from those initial pairs that went out, did you get customer feedback? How much of a sense did you have of like, am I going to get a repeat customer? It was incredible. So a lot of my friends recommended the brand.

32:46Beatriz de los Mozos:I had so many orders since the beginning. People were buying again, They were texting me like crazy, like I want more shoes. So I was like, wow, I think I have it. This is the company. This was end of July. I worked crazily. And then in August 2020, I launched the website. The website worked super well since the beginning. I was able to pay all my bills. And I was like, you know what? I'm quitting. So in September, I told my poor boss who was suffering because during the summer, obviously, I wasn't performing as always. And I resigned. I told her I was very sorry, but I had launched a company during the pandemic and I had to leave.

33:21Beatriz de los Mozos:And I was all. I started working fully in Flavelos. I contracted the first two team members the month after in October. And since then to here, basically every month we have so many things happening. So I was able to identify a gap in the market without knowing it. because flavelus cover a very interesting field from the sneakers, informal sneakers, to the super formal ballerinas, you know. So either way, if you want to wear any of these styles, flavelus can be a match, especially for, I mean, to go to work comfortable, flavelus is a pair of ballerinas. To go to a party comfortable and elegant, flavelus is a pair of sneakers.

34:04Beatriz de los Mozos:So it really covers a lot of use cases that before no one could cover fully, you know? Either you go informal, but fun. Either you go super classy, but uncomfortable, you know? So there was always a but to these situations. I love this. So talk to me about growth because within just five years, the brand expanded from an online-only model to selling in over 700 stores across 54 countries. in addition to also growing your own brick and mortar stores. So at what point did you decide to start doing wholesale in addition to your direct-to-consumer sales? Actually, wholesale was since the very beginning.

34:51Beatriz de los Mozos:That first summer, I had 300 pairs to sell, no? So I thought, okay, let's start calling stores to do some pop-ups, to leave them in consignment, brand activations, I really need to do this. So I started calling. And in a month and a half, I had already 50 stores across Europe. It was crazy. It was because I was like EA as well. But also sales. So you're not afraid to pick up the phone and call someone. No. That's both a skill and a superpower. I mean, it was the easiest thing ever. I was selling a software, IT software to IT people. So imagine selling your own shoe to a brand owner. I mean, I was like, this is easy because we speak the same language.

35:32Beatriz de los Mozos:We love fashion. We are girls. It's fun. It's for her shop. I love her shop. So it's a different connection, you know? So basically what happened? All these stores didn't have products in their stores because during COVID they had been canceling all the orders because they didn't know when the pandemic would end. And they had put a lot of money in advance for those orders. So they were like, you know what? I cannot afford to pay another collection for a closed store. So all of them canceled their orders. So imagine a brand that is calling them in July and telling them, I'm sending free shoes. You don't need to pay, you know?

36:06Beatriz de los Mozos:So all of them were like, please come visit us, organize an event, please. We need to move our stores. It was the momentum as well. That helps me a lot, obviously. And all the stores were saying, yes, please. And then they sold very well because the shoes were perfect for the period. They were working from home. They were in their vacation mode, but at the same time working, it was a bit of a period that were flat shoes were useful. And I feel like came back in terms of like the fashion trend cycle, suddenly, I mean, really the pandemic shifted in addition to many other things. A lot of our expectations about fashion, about comfort, about it went from sky high heels to flats.

36:45It went from really tailored clothing to things that had some stretch and some give, like people were no longer willing to be uncomfortable. Literally. And this is happening at the same time. Like they want to look nice, but they want to feel comfortable. And that had never really been on the table in the same way before.

37:03Beatriz de los Mozos:Completely. Before it was more important to be elegant. And now everyone is like, you know what? I don't give an X to like how I look. No, it's a different mentality. New generations are teaching us a lot about that because all of them are like, no, I'm not willing to suffer. You can look cool, but your feet don't need to hurt. Exactly. I mean, that's why I say I'm lucky. Obviously, the shoes were good quality, nice, and I was good at convincing them. But at the same time, I was lucky because they had their stores empty and they were looking for product. And you were sending on consignment saying, take a risk.

37:37I'll send you the product. When you sell it, then pay me because you already had these products. So it feels like that's an offer that you can't refuse as a store owner, especially one who doesn't have product in stores.

37:49Beatriz de los Mozos:Normally, and from experience now, stores don't want to have consignment. Some, yes, because there are specific countries that only work in consignment. But the general group of stores prefer to just pay because the consignment gives them so much administrative work of counting the amounts and checking and making invoices every month. And they don't have hands for that because they normally have very tiny teams. So they prefer to buy once per year or twice per year the collections and just have them delivered and sell them, no? Which are the best clients, by the way. You want to have these clients that just buy and sell your stuff and they don't request consignment.

38:26Beatriz de los Mozos:But at that point, everyone was like, please, we really need the consignment. So you also opened your flagship store in Madrid in 2021. How did having a physical store help the brand to grow? Wow. That was another big investment we did very early on. So basically what happened to me was like I was looking at Madrid. Madrid now is booming. Everyone wants to be here at the moment. We have an area which is called Salamanca. Salamanca is where all the biggest stores are. And Salamanca was pretty empty back then. I was walking around Madrid in 2021 after just going out from the bad COVID experience and many biggest stores had closed.

39:09Beatriz de los Mozos:So because of that, everyone was like very desperate to rent because they were losing money every month and the rents were so low so low for what they are now obviously and so low for madrid so looking at the future i was like you are going to want a store and the situation now is the best possible and we don't know when this situation will ever come back you know so i thought i need to find a store whatever it takes even if you don't have the money this is the time to do it so i started looking i found my Hermosilla store in Barrio Salamanca, which is a beautiful area in Madrid. Very residential.

39:43Beatriz de los Mozos:Not only is touristy, but also a lot of people live around that street, which is good for me. Back then, I didn't know, but there is a route to the supermarket through the street. Foot traffic! Foot traffic, exactly. Locals that go to buy their groceries, those are perfect because they go thinking I have to buy my groceries and then they pass by my store and they think, okay, maybe I need to buy shoes as well, no? So, I mean, I really struggled to find the location because it was an outlet street back then, you know, not anymore, but back then was an outlet street. And I was like, I cannot open the first store of La Bellus in an outlet street, you know?

40:20Beatriz de los Mozos:I had found another space. That other space, the landlord was an old man. I was 28 at the time, no? And I was a girl and I look a bit younger than I am. So he thought this 22 year old is going to destroy my store and I don't want to give her the responsibility. I had a business of less than a year. And he was like, I don't think your business will last that long. I cannot trust you. So I cannot give you the space. So I went back to the outlet and I thought, you know what? If this is the only opportunity, this is the opportunity. Let's do it here. Actually, it had also a big car space that was just in front and that was busy.

40:59Beatriz de los Mozos:So people would just cross the street not to pass by the car space, right? So I was like, oh, that's not positive either. And also they told me the space was called the haunted store because people were changing a store very quickly. As soon as they came in, they came out. And that had happened during the past four years, like five times, no? And they were like, why would you think your store is going to last? In the haunted store. In the haunted store. I opened very scared, but I signed that agreement and I opened. And it's the best decision I've ever taken. The store is the best store we have, the most profitable, the biggest sales and the most visited.

41:37Beatriz de los Mozos:So it's like, I mean, what can I say? The haunted store became the magic store. So talk to me about how you think about product expansion, because you've expanded into different types of shoes as well as ready to wear clothing. how do you know when it's the right time to try something new? I never know. I mean, basically, and this is a question that my potential investors, the banks, ask me a lot. So tell us more about your collections, which is going to be the next hit. How are you going to organize it? La, la, la, la. And you look at them and you're like, I have no clue. But I cannot tell you that.

42:17Beatriz de los Mozos:So you're starting trying to introduce them. Okay, so I think this new thing and this other one, la, la, la, and the knowledge we have on this market, I think this is going to fit super well, and you explain. But in fashion, there is a lot of uncertainty. Even the best designers have no clue if their collections are going to work. And that's the biggest uncertainty, and that's why fashion is so difficult, because there is this uncertainty around the taste of people and trends. You don't know if something will go with trends, if something will be according to the taste of that year. For example, there is a color, which is blue claim, that during the past five years has been super strong.

42:54Beatriz de los Mozos:This year went down. And you don't know why. Why Blue Clean went down? Everyone loves Blue Clean, no? It went down. And we always do something in Blue Clean and we actually put a big amount of money behind Blue Clean. This year you may see them in the sales, you know? But it is what it is. You cannot control it. So basically you analyze the data. We see what are the strongest colors. We see what are the trends in the market. we see what we want to be our own trend. We don't react to trends. We try to create our own trends, no? So we create our own. We add some colors that are in trend and that's what we'll launch.

43:30Beatriz de los Mozos:Every year we try to launch every season, two, three options that we think could work. This winter, for example, we have a couple of strong shoes that we think are going to be very cool, but we don't know. Now we start to know. We launch these two, they will work because we know how to make them work. It's not only that they work instantly, but also if you do a good campaign, if you do a good gifting across the right people, if you position the shoes as very cool, if you surround them with coolness. It's not only about the product, it's also how you surround the product. It's true that there are things that work instantly.

44:05Beatriz de los Mozos:They don't need marketing. They don't need anything. They are literally a success. They are bestseller a success. There are others that because we develop the right strategy of comms, of PR, marketing, press, la, la, la, they become a success. So you have certain control over how to make something a success. But it's horrible, it's horrible. People are not going to like it. That's it. If they don't sell, they don't sell. You cannot do much. But you can save certain categories of being underseen by promoting them in the right way and creating the trend yourself, basically. I love it. So you also recently reached an exciting milestone in your company with half a million, 500 ,000 pairs of shoes sold.

44:55That is crazy and amazing. Congratulations. What does that accomplishment mean to you and to your team?

45:05Beatriz de los Mozos:We're very happy, of course. But at the same time, it's part of the growth as well. The problem we have is that because we are working so hard in the future, because at the moment I'm working on 2027 and 2028. So because we are working on that, the milestones that we surpass, because we dreamt of them like a year ago. Now we are like, okay, check. We achieved it because we planned it. In a way, everything that we achieve is because we've planned it before and we've been organizing everything for it to happen. So we know it's going to happen because everything has been set for it to happen. So if they don't happen, it will be a failure, not a success kind of, no?

45:48I love it. Okay. So since you're in this planning mode right now, what is coming up for fall? What's coming up going forward? Like, what should we be looking for?

45:59Beatriz de los Mozos:We have a lot of new things. We are going through a rebranding right now, which is pretty exciting. We hired a new creative director. He's doing a lot of internal changes. We have hired a lot of cool creatives. I think that was missing. I'm very business oriented and I can lead a creative team. However, I'm not a star in creative direction, no? Because I'm better as a businesswoman. And the reality is we need a star and we have that star now. and I'm very happy about it. He said yes. It was like a marriage, I have to say, because we kept trying to convince him during the past eight months. And finally, I mean, he told us the other day, like, you know what, Bea, it was crazy how you came inside my store because he has his own brand as well.

46:40Beatriz de los Mozos:He was like, you know, you came in my own store and you told me you wanted me to work for you. And I was like, what? The audacity. And he was like, oh my God, this girl. I mean, she has a clear idea because I was like the only person that can make this happen. It's you, so I need you. And he was like, I was so surprised that you had such a trust on me. And plus, you thought I would leave my own brand to work for you. I wasn't implying that. Of course, he has kept his brand. I really hope both brands grow a lot. I love his brand. It's beautiful. I think it's going to be very cool to work with him.

47:15Beatriz de los Mozos:I mean, already the first collection is ongoing and it's pretty cool. It's exactly what I wanted. And we are launching in November. So expect a lot of changes in November because they will come. And we are growing up. I think Flabelius was an 18, 19-year-old colorful girl. And now she's becoming a 27-fun young woman. You know, that's just going to happen. And it's going to be fun. That's so exciting. Okay, so everyone who comes on this podcast, we close out by asking the same three questions. And the first question is about mistakes because everyone makes them throughout their career, but we don't always talk about the mistakes.

47:55And I think it's important to see that even successful entrepreneurs can make mistakes and bounce back. So I'm hoping that you can tell me about a mistake that you've made at any point in your career and what you've learned from it.

48:10Beatriz de los Mozos:I can tell you two. So one that was pretty big at the beginning and one that is pretty big right now. So the one that we made at the beginning was when we were growing and calculating the amount of shoes that we had to make for the following collection. What happened was that because the shoes run a little bit smaller than normal, you have to size up and all our clients had sized up. And I thought, okay, I need to solve this early. So what I'm going to do is to change all the sizes one up. And like that, everyone will fit to their proper size and we won't need to have people sizing up anymore.

48:45Beatriz de los Mozos:So we did that. It was such a disaster. Suddenly people that were clients were emailing us like, hey guys, I don't have my size. So many changes. I mean, I was crying. I was like, how this can be so bad? I thought that sizing up was the solution. And in reality, the clients were understanding. And actually all the sizes were wrongly typed inside the shoes. So we had a mess. No, no, it was a complete disaster. That was a big one. Never mess up with sizes necessarily. That was the one lesson we learned. And then another one related to that one was the amount of stock we produced was over the amount of revenue we were making because we didn't grow as strongly as we thought we would because I didn't know how to calculate.

49:31Beatriz de los Mozos:So I was calculating without trends and without numbers behind because it was my second year. Right. So without that information, it was very difficult to do it. And what happened was that I had a lot of shoes in the stockroom and I couldn't sell them. And that really influenced our cash flow because all the money of the company was in stock. Inventory management, everyone says, is the hardest piece. It was horrible, I have to say. I couldn't pay my invoices. I mean, I had only winter shoes in the warehouse. It was a disaster because obviously you don't have cash flow, then all your invoices are unpaid and the bank doesn't give you more money.

50:06Beatriz de los Mozos:So everything was a big disaster. We were able to negotiate it and navigate through it. And all our partners were flexible enough, even if they were angry, they were flexible enough to let us leave because some partners could be very strict. However, because we were still in a little bit of a pandemic situation in 2021, I think everyone was a bit more human because it was a difficult situation for pretty much everyone. And now a big mistake. I can tell you our warehouse was not counting the shoes in the warehouse. So basically you would count them as soon as shoes arrive to the warehouse. when you ship online, you ship the ones that are there for longer period because you want to ship those first and then you ship the new ones.

50:51Beatriz de los Mozos:Like that, you don't have shoes there for two years because obviously every time new shoes arrive. So if you just ship the new shoes, the old shoes remain there forever, no? So obviously we had signed up that we had to ship the old ones first, but we didn't check. And what happened pretty much for five months ago was that we realized that we had many shoes from the previous collections still there. And that means shoes that have been there for a year and a half. So we had to do a monitoring of all the shoes. We had to check box per box to see which ones were ruined or which ones were still there.

51:26Beatriz de los Mozos:And our problem is that we cannot distinguish so easily. So some of the shoes after the quality control were shipped and suddenly they have defects we didn't think of. For example, they don't stick well. So what we are doing now is to create a big campaign of customer service to be able to change quickly all the shoes that come with a defect because it's something we cannot control. And we cannot just delete 100 ,000 pairs of shoes just because they have not been shipped. They have been quality control checked, but obviously that was not ideal. And now all the shoes are shipped, everything solved.

52:01Beatriz de los Mozos:But still, it has been four months of I need to discover these shoes. I need to know which ones are the effects so I can take them out. And the reality is that it was a crazy work of the customer service and also the operations team. And now I can say, okay, everything has been set up, solved, done, but we've cried a lot in the past four months. Yeah. Things happen and all you can do is fix them, right? Yeah. So a lot of the people who listen to this podcast are in their first lives and they know that they want to make a change. Maybe they want to stay in their same industry. Maybe they want to be like you and change industries entirely, but they're scared.

52:43What advice would you give someone who's thinking about making a big change, but hasn't done it quite yet?

52:49Beatriz de los Mozos:You know what? It is a feeling that comes out when it has to come out. So I would just trust life because when it happens, I mean, when you are ready, you will know you are ready, you know? and I would say that if you are insecure but you want to do something, you are ready. So just go for it. I don't think twice. Normally people start drafting business plans. They start trying to understand how to do it better. And the reality is, you know what, you never know. There will always be mistakes. Everything will go wrong at some point and you have to be resilient enough to understand that ups and downs happen everywhere and when it's your own business, more.

53:27Beatriz de los Mozos:So I would say just go for it. Don't think twice. When you have the feeling inside that you are not quite right where you are at the moment, and be patient with the process. Because it's a tough process. I mean, don't expect not to suffer. It's not going to be like, oh, I'm super happy and everything goes super well. No, it's not like that. You will suffer probably during a period because you will be insecure, because you don't know what to do, because things at the beginning don't fit as they need to fit. I guess changing is a very important learning and a personal process. So it's not something fun and nice, I would say.

54:03Beatriz de los Mozos:It's something where you evolve, but it hurts. That's important to know. It hurts. We are scared of hurting. We don't like suffering. You know what? Suffering transforms you in such a way that you become a different person, a stronger person, a better version of yourself. Don't be scared of suffering. And when you need to suffer, you look at the suffering in the eyes and you, yes, I'm going to do it. I'm going to go inside there because it really changes your life. It made me who I am now and the strong woman I am now. And it hurts a lot. But if I had to go through, and I will go through suffering so many other times in my life, I really see it as a process that I have to endure to become better.

54:49Beatriz de los Mozos:That's it. So my last question is my favorite question. which is if you could go back in time and speak with your younger self and give your younger self some advice, Younger B, what would you say? Follow the process. Really? Yes. No, the reality is Younger B was very impatient. She wouldn't have listened. No, no. Even if I came into a dream to Younger B and told her, look, I'm there in the future. Younger B will be, shut up. I don't believe you. That was Younger B. So Younger B needed her process and as it was. So I needed to learn from every mistake, from every problem. I needed it. And that's why Younger B is where I am now, you know, because I went through it all.

55:39Beatriz de los Mozos:It was good for me. So I'm very happy it happened. I love it. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure. Congratulations on all of the success. I will also keep my eyes peeled for November. I look forward to seeing what is to come. And I know that my teams across Who What Wear and Marie Claire will be very excited as well. No, we are very excited as well. I hope you love it.

56:09that was the ceo and founder of flabellas beatriz de la mosos for more inspiring interviews with women like beatriz head on over to secondlifepod.com where we have so many more for you to peruse if you like today's show please subscribe on apple podcasts or spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review us. We love seeing spread the word on social. And now you can tag us in your posts. We are at second life pod on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. We always want to know who you're interested in hearing from on the show. So send in your requests to hello at second life pod.com, or you can DM us on Instagram.

56:52I'm at Hillary Kerr. The show is at Second Life Pod. Our DMs are always open. I'm Hilary Kerr, and you've been listening to Second Life. This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hamaris, and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Grace Ingram. Our audio engineers are at Treehouse Recording in Los Angeles, California, and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.