Cassandra Morales Thurswell: Founder and CEO of Kitsch

21:52And the wonderful thing about this jewelry company was I was able to quit my two jobs. I was able to have one job and work a normal Monday through Friday. And so he met me at this time when I was just like so busy. I had no time for him. And I was like, I'm just so unwilling to be broke. I want to save up every penny. I don't want any distractions. And so I get the job at this jewelry company and it's so fun. And I was like, wow, I'm really good at this. And he's like, you know, you could do that. You could start your own private label jewelry manufacturing company. And I was like, I don't know how I've started all these businesses.

22:31It was the one time that I really felt like I wasn't capable.

22:35Cassandra Morales Thurswell:Or you just needed a break. It had been like a two-year hiatus since I had started a business. And he was like, you know, you could do this. And he really, really believed in me. And so at that point I had saved up$30 ,000 and I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to try it. And so So I did it and ultimately, you know, I wanted to start a brand. The private label is wonderful, but you know, long-term it was still this thing in me that really wanted to start a brand. And that's when I started thinking about like, okay, well, what am I going to do? What's the point? I've tried all these things.

23:14Like how am I going to bring something unique? And it's funny because I was like, well, it can't be expensive because that really didn't work out for me. I loved working at the cupcake shop and seeing how much people like love the giftability of cupcakes. I want it to be something that people came back for time and time again. It was utilitarian, the retainers that I was making, you know, it's like you reach for it every single day. Ultimately, what was that product? It was a handmade hair tie and I could make it from my apartment. I could buy the materials downtown. I packaged it in a cute way and that was the first product we made.

23:49Cassandra Morales Thurswell:So for anyone who isn't familiar, what did that hair tie look like? How long did it take to like really nail the prototype? And then how do you scale a prototype into manufacturing something? So this is something that I just share with everyone because I think it's so important. I was not the first person to make this hair tie. This was all over Etsy. This is a product that you could find everywhere, but like I couldn't manufacture it with my manufacturers for private label because I didn't have the volume there. And it was just something that I could do as a brand and make it cute. And I had full control over it.

24:28So the one thing that I think was a huge differentiator between, you know, a lot of the Etsy companies and what I was doing was I was reading the reviews. What do people like? What did they not like? How can I make this better? And to describe the product, it's basically, you know, like underwear elastic cut and then knotted. That's it. Sometimes people are like, so-and-so has already done that. And you know, I don't think I should do that because it's already done. Well, the truth is, is, well, you can think about it differently and do it differently. And so there were three main things that people were saying were the problem.

25:04It was too expensive. They stretched out too much and the edges frayed. And I was like, I just got to solve these three problems and I've made a new product. And so what I did was I cut the elastics, I knotted them and I used a more resilient fabric and I singed every single one with a lighter. And then I'd package them on a card and then I'd go out and sell them. And I would work at trade shows and do the whole thing again. That door-to-door that you know and a muscle that you were familiar with, it was familiar to me. But the benefit though of doing door-to-door sales or just being that close to the customer is you get that immediate feedback.

25:44You can't pretend like your product is the greatest when someone looks you in the eye and tells you no. I wasn't afraid to say, well, why if someone said no? And so I would ask for the feedback. I'd go change the product and sometimes I'd come back the next day and I'd almost always get the sale. So that was what the feedback and the low ego of thinking that it was perfect and they were wrong and I was right. You know, I think that was a big differentiator for me in, you know, like, well, why did my hair elastic take off more than someone on Etsy's? And I think that that was a big part of it.

26:17Cassandra Morales Thurswell:I love that it's such a grassroots beginning. Again, I love that you were so close to it because I think that like the constant feedback that you were getting had to be incredibly useful, but talk to me about how do you go from a hair tie to then branching out into other categories? Because if my research is right, you moved into other categories with some degree of speed. Yeah, I mean, I didn't set out to build a lifestyle hair care brand. I would like to say that the customer built that and I was just close enough to hear it. So I'll give you an example. A store manager would say one sentence to me on a random Tuesday that would be like, this hair ties so much better for my hair than the round one.

27:02I would be like, oh, what other hair accessories can I make that are so much better for her hair than the round one? Or like, what are the other moments in her day where I can make something that's better for her hair that she's already using? And even the shampoo and conditioner that we launched into, that was requests from our customers. And so it's funny that you say it happened so quickly, but like we've been in business for 16 years, almost 17 now. So I don't know if that was quick. I kind of feel like it was the right speed. We were co-creating and we were in a flow state with our customer and delivering to her.

27:38It started first with the feedback coming to us and then we developed with it. And then we were almost like doing it at the same time. And now we're anticipating what she wants. So it's been a really beautiful journey. And I can say something I'm so proud of is some of those customers in that first year of doing business, we still work with them today. That's amazing. I get messages on social and on our Facebook group people talking about, you know, we were one of the first customers for those handmade hair ties.

28:08Cassandra Morales Thurswell:That's crazy. Okay. Wait, going back again, relatively early on, you started working with your then boyfriend, now business partner and husband, having already worked on a company with your mom and going through that journey. Were you nervous about bringing anyone else into the business? I wasn't, you know, Jeremy, he had a very successful career in entertainment and he was on a ton of really successful shows and he was on a hiatus and I needed some free help. So I put him to work and what I didn't realize was how he is an operational genius and And in the beginning stages, I was the one that was really teaching him about the industry and retailers and all of that stuff, but he was made for business.

28:59So when he first started, we kind of divide and conquered and he took on finance and ops and I was doing sales and product development. And we would work so hard. We would wake up early. We'd walk our dog. We got a tiny office. This was year two. We got a tiny office in downtown Los Angeles and we would go in so early and we would come back so late every night and we just really matched each other's speed. We were unstoppable.

29:29Cassandra Morales Thurswell:I love that. What was the moment where you sort of started to feel like, I think this is really working? I think success is subjective. And for me, I felt like from day one, I was winning. It's the kind of satisfaction that comes from building something with your hands. And the only way that I feel like I was able to feel that feeling, that level of satisfaction from the first day was because of something that I created, which I didn't have a name for back then, but I created something called a lifestyle plan. So most businesses start with a business plan and you make it through your projection and you got a cashflow analysis and blah, blah, blah, blah.

30:07And I wrote down, what does my most successful life look like? I sat down and I wrote out that lifestyle plan and it gave me so much clarity on what I love to do, what I don't love to do. And it made it so easy to say yes and no to every single thing that came across my plate. And I think to fully answer your question, it did not take a long time to get to that place of my lifestyle plan. So I knew it wasn't tied to money. It was tied to how I was living my life on a day-to-day basis.

30:42Cassandra Morales Thurswell:That's interesting. So company started 2010. You entered into Ulta six years later. Yeah. That feels like a very big benchmark. Can you talk to me a little bit about what that was like and how it transpired? I need to tell you exactly how this happened because it's the version I want every founder to hear. Ulta was a cold call. No. Yeah. And the buyer asked, are you going to be a Cosmoprof? And I didn't even know what Cosmoprof was because remember I was in the gift world. Cosmoprof is a beauty space. And so I Googled it. A booth was $20 ,000. I didn't have$20 ,000. So I couldn't afford it. Instead of pretending like I could, we offered to take her to lunch at a taco restaurant right outside of the trade show.

31:35And the lunch was just a perfect representation of us. It was humble, scrappy, couldn't afford the booth lunch. And that got us one shelf on an end cap as a test and the rest was history. That's crazy. How did you build your team over time? That's actually been one of my proudest journeys that I've had is learning how to be a leader in that regard. So we started with Craigslist, hiring jack of all trades, hiring people that were just so willing to pull up their sleeves. And Jeremy and I, we led by example. We would pack orders ourselves and we'd show up early, leave late. And as the years went on, we started to find more specialty people.

32:22But it was funny, like, you know, when you start, I loved calling myself a CEO and we're like six years in and there's like five of us. It was interesting because like, I'll give you an example for hiring a product developer. When you're that small, you are putting the job description together and you're interviewing people and you're like, yeah, we're looking for a product developer. And that person's going to also create purchase orders. And they're also going to manage production. They also might help pack some orders sometimes. The job descriptions just eventually got more and more specific as the years go on.

32:52And now they're definitely more tailored. We have over 200 employees now.

32:55Cassandra Morales Thurswell:So how did you start thinking through product development as the brand continued to grow? I wish I could say that there was like this brilliant five-year roadmap, but there wasn't. And I think that's, again, important to say out loud because I think everyone thinks that they need to have this master plan. But it was genuinely a journey that we took with the customer. So it started with the hair tie and it was kind on your hair and cute on your wrist. And over time, customers trusted us more and more and Kitsch really became a lifestyle hair care brand. So just thinking about taking care of the hair from the moment you wake up until the moment you go to sleep and every second in between, I'd watch videos of customers using our products and I would see like, what other products are they using with our products?

33:46Like how can we build out this routine? And I'll give you an example. We have a dermaplaner and I would watch influencers use a dermaplane oil with it. And it sounds simple enough, but I was like, let's make a dermaplane oil. And so, you know, it was just watching the customers use our products. How do they use it? What else could I do to help build that routine and make it make sense for them? And I think, you know, just after years of building that trust and that routine together, just most recently we launched shampoo and conditioner. And it was just the natural completion of the whole routine that she was already doing with us.

34:22So it was amazing.

34:24Cassandra Morales Thurswell:So I also want to ask about 2020 because that was obviously a pivotal year and an intense year for everyone, but especially for business owners. involves a lot of adjustment and change. How did the pandemic impact your business, the company growth, morale, and how did you get through it? Yeah, we had a million dollar purchase order canceled on us practically overnight. Oh. A different supplier called and said, you know, you make eye masks, can you make face masks? And what we did is we took the fabric from all those canceled, it was actually canceled scrunchies, and we pivoted and we made them into face masks for COVID.

35:07I joke that we were the official face mask for COVID. And what was crazy is we were doing the fabric masks and we kept hearing that people were having a hard time importing PPE masks. And so we started asking our resources overseas, like, can you guys find us PPE masks? And we found a ton of resources for it. And the craziest part was, is the only way for us to be able to import them was to pay cash up front, hoping that the suppliers would actually ship. And I remember laying in bed next to Jeremy one night, and he's doing this cash flow analysis of how we were going to have to basically drain our bank account.

35:48And we were going to import all these PPE masks for frontline workers. And if all goes well, it'll just be a couple of weeks and we'll be back. and I look over at him and his nose starts to bleed. Oh no. 2020 was intense. We ended up moving about 14 million masks for first responders and essential workers. And when they couldn't get the masks anywhere, there's such a beautiful reflection on that time because we still have suppliers that reach out and tell us like you were there for us when XYZ couldn't get a mask. And we're really proud of how we showed up at that time. That's crazy.

36:27Cassandra Morales Thurswell:Also crazy, that was the same year that you also received your first acquisition offer, which I read you found insulting. Talk to me about that. Yeah. I mean, I think timing definitely matters here. They came in with the lowest possible offer in the middle of the hardest year that we ever had. Rude. I know. I want to be gracious about it because I think that they were doing what made sense for them in their position. But I also think that they were testing whether we were desperate enough to take it. thankfully we weren't. You know, we went on to do the same revenue that they offered us entirely on our own shortly thereafter.

37:02So, but yeah, they offered us the floor during our hardest year and we walked away and we've grown our revenue 10X since then. So I don't say it with bitterness. I say it with gratitude that we trusted ourselves when it mattered. So yeah.

37:17Cassandra Morales Thurswell:That's amazing. I also have a personal question, which is, I want to know how you evolved your shower cap design. It's really thoughtful and it's really excellent. And it feels like a technological advancement. So I'm curious about how you realized this was a category that you could improve. So it's called our Flexi Shower Cap. And we make a spa headband right now, and it's out of like a recycled microfiber material. And the whole concept of the spa headband was that you were able to pull it down over your neck and then pull it back up again and put all of your hair inside of it so that you could wash your neck and you could wash your chest and your face and be able to not have your hair interfere at all.

38:05And it's one of my favorite products. So I was like, okay, the problem with a lot of shower capsules are too big. They're too tight. They're too, whatever they, all of the issues that you might have. A lot of people change their hairstyles. Trying to wrap it around your head is really challenging. And I was like, what if we took the same concept as our microfiber spa headband and you slid it down over your head and kept it like kind of like a snood, you know, the around your neck, and then you're able to pull it back up again. And then you can tighten it or loosen it to whatever your hairstyle is for that day.

38:39And so you don't even have to tie up your hair. I have naturally curly hair. And so even putting a clip in it, I get a kink. And then we put a satin lining on the inside too, to reduce friction and, you know, not cause any frizzies. And then we put a super cute print on the outside.

38:55Cassandra Morales Thurswell:I have to say it's remarkable. Like it's the only thing that I will ever use ever again. Thank you for saying that. I feel so strongly about it. As someone who has really tested the array that's out there on the market, my problem was always like somewhere on the hairline would get wet and therefore destroying the whole point of it. And to your point too, I love the fact that it's adjustable. So whatever is going on with your hair, you can have it so that it's not smushing it in any way. I saw the inclusivity of it, of the design and was delighted by that. But then it's also the prints are so great without being reductive or twee, which is also often where this category goes.

39:37Cassandra Morales Thurswell:So I really just find it to be a very incredible and well-designed and thoughtful product. I get very excited about it. I've like texted my friends about it. That's how strongly I feel about it. Do you want to know that's actually, we didn't have a marketing budget for years and years and years and years and referrals and recommendations is how Kitsch has grown. So thank you for doing that. And people ask me like, if you could describe Kitsch in one word, how would you describe the brand? And the word I use is thoughtful. So you just use that too. So thank you for validating that. Very much so.

40:12Cassandra Morales Thurswell:So 2024 was another major year because Kitsch launched in Target. And I remember seeing the launch happening. I was like, oh, this is a really big moment as someone who had a clothing line at Target for many years as part of the Who What Wear for Target deal. I am deeply aware of how that can change everyone's trajectory. Why Target then? And did you have to do anything new for those doors to open? So I pitch Target every single year for five or six consecutive years. Same thesis every time. I'm thinking about the hair accessories aisle differently. You're thinking about it all wrong. Women don't want to choose between black elastic A and black elastic B.

40:55They want to build a routine. And what I noticed was that the people making products for this section were often thinking about margin per peg. They've completely forgotten about the customer. Kitch is thinking about the woman standing with her child, with her basket in front of the aisle. And when she stops in this section, she should be able to build her whole hair care routine, but not having to bounce around between a bunch of different departments. So here's what I come to believe. I don't think Kitch had to change to be ready for Target. I think that Target had to change to be ready for Kitch.

41:27And there's a reason why we brought in thousands and thousands of new customers that hadn't shopped the aisle before we had launched. We brought them new or returned when we launched in Target. And I think that when you make it in Target, a joke, it's like America saying, we love you. I needed every single one of those 14 years to build the community, to validate that it was time for us to be at Target. And you just can't rush becoming yourself. No brand Bible in year one could have captured who Kitch is today. And we're a customer-centric brand. We're low ego, high performance. That through line was always there, but it took time for us to earn it.

42:07And what Target meant was visibility. It meant they understood the customer was evolving and they were ready to do that with them.

42:14Cassandra Morales Thurswell:Well, that all brings us to 2026. Kitsch has done over$500 million in annual revenue. You are in 32 ,000 retail doors across 92 countries. Number one at Ulta in hair accessories. top three in mass hair care at Target, and zero outside investment ever, which in this day and age is the sexiest statement you could possibly make. When you look back on everything that you have built and the timeline, the steadiness with which you have built it, what is the most rewarding part of this process now standing here looking at this massive empire. I do think genuinely it's not any of those numbers. I think the most rewarding.

43:06Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

43:07Cassandra Morales Thurswell:But those numbers are amazing. Yeah, they are. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Just from a data standpoint, like that is crazy. Yeah. I do think that the most rewarding part is coming out the other side of all of those challenges. And looking back on like the last 16 years, I always think about my hardest chapter. And it wasn't the jewelry business failing. It wasn't COVID. It was becoming a mother while trying to build this. And I do say that with so much love for my daughter. And I say it because I don't think women are supposed to say that out loud. It's just, you don't just change when you have a baby, you disappear a little.

43:45And I think the hardest part wasn't disappearing. It was watching everyone else say the same when I did. You know, Jeremy was still working till 9pm. And that's what we always did. That was us. That was our relationship. And for a while, I resented him for doing the exact same thing I would have done myself a year earlier. And that's the part that nobody tells you is that new motherhood can turn your admiration into resentment and your resentment into guilt. And you carry all three of these things at once. And it's so confusing and overwhelming. And I can say, I didn't know how to communicate what I was going through with postpartum anxiety and depression.

44:20And he didn't know how to handle me when I was going through all of that. And he was scared and he just buried himself in more work and we broke. And I don't say that for drama. I say it because it was true. And because I think people need to hear that breaking doesn't mean that you have to end. We rebuilt slower with a lot less assumption that the other person was okay. So when you ask what was most rewarding, it's not the revenue or the doors, the countries that we're in. It's that I'm still here and that we're still here. And then I got to build this and keep my marriage and become someone my daughter can look up to.

44:55And I didn't know in the middle of it that I get to keep it all. I'm just really, really proud, you know, that almost 17 years later, I got to do it all. I have the saying that the secret to having it all is knowing you already do. And I think in hindsight, I think having it all really means that sometimes you don't need to have it all at once. You can have all of these things, but they just happen at different times. I'm really, really proud and grateful for that chapter of my life.

45:19Cassandra Morales Thurswell:Well, one, I didn't foresee myself crying, but here I am. Two, I often call it having it most because I don't tend to feel like I have it all at the same time. It's like most, and most is great. Most I can handle also having some forgiveness for myself of thinking there are seasons for things. I'm not my best self or my same self in every season. And it's taken time, but I've been able to make some degree of peace with that. So I feel you on that. Well, I know that the stats are not necessarily what matters in the grand scheme of things. But I have to say that I find it really inspiring and exciting that Kitsch is the largest self-funded female-owned beauty brand in the world.

46:07Cassandra Morales Thurswell:You have all of these employees, you have built this thing, you have done it with honor and integrity and intention and responsibility and low ego. And I just have to say, as someone who's watched you build this business from afar for all of these years. It's really nice to know that there is a way to do it that is not just the private equity, venture capital. There are alternatives for building something that you can build something in a different way and build it very successfully. So thank you for showing us that. Thank you for saying that. It really is something I just reflect back on every single person that packed an order with me in those first few years and every person that works for me now and everybody in between.

46:49So I want to say, because I do think that people think it's just venture money, private equity, full acquisition, and there's no in between. But I did in 2023, we did something called a secondary deal. And if anybody who's not familiar with the secondary deal, it's something that a lot of founders usually never get to do. When people hear that you did a deal, they think it means that you raised money, but it's actually the opposite. So a secondary deal is when a founder sells a piece of their own personal stake and not the company specifically. So no cash goes into the business at all. And you get offered that option if the business is already cash positive and you don't need anyone else's money to keep the business growing.

47:32So that's also motivation to, even if you have a small business, just to keep it cash positive. And if there's ever a point where you just want to take some chips off the table, you can do a secondary deal. I didn't even know that that was an option. And so just a few years ago, we got to do that and that was really great.

47:48Cassandra Morales Thurswell:That is amazing. So we always wrap up this podcast by asking the same three questions. And the first one is about mistakes. And I think it's important to talk about mistakes because for the most part, people just get the highlight reel. And I think it's important for women to hear like, oh, I messed up and I came back and things were okay. And I know we've touched on some of that today, but I'm hoping that you can tell me about a mistake that you've made at any point in your career and what you've learned from it. This one I think about a lot. it was expensive and humbling. So a retailer came to me with a passion project, basically.

48:23She wanted a specific color, specific products that she personally loved. And I could see immediately in the data that this was not a good product. There were not customers that were buying this product. And I was too afraid to push back, too eager to agree. And I was really uncomfortable with friction. And so I followed her lead instead of leading her to the right answer and trying to push back. I'm like, are we thinking about you or are we thinking about the customer here? And when the order ended, instead of getting paid, I ended up having to write the retailer a check because there was so much overstock and it was extremely costly.

49:02And I think there is a meaningful difference between being of service and being people pleasing. That is very destructive. And I learned that the hard way. And I wasn't being of service. It was a lose-lose situation dressed up as accommodation and I wasn't protecting our customer. So what I would do differently, I would have asked her to validate those choices with data and kind of question her. So maybe she could have realized that this was like a passion project for her. And I've done it with kindness, of course, and without ego, but then maybe she would have realized that this was something that she thought was cool and not necessarily something that was on trend or anything.

49:43So it was, it was, it was honestly terrible. There were temporary tattoos involved. That's all I'm going to say.

49:48Cassandra Morales Thurswell:That's how we learned. Yeah. So a lot of the folks who listen to this podcast are in their first lives and they want to make a pivot of some sort. Maybe it's in the same industry, maybe it's a different industry, but they're nervous about making that leap. As someone who has made pivots in her career, what advice would you give someone who's standing there thinking about it, but just hasn't made the leap quite yet? I think the most honest thing I can say is wherever you go, you take yourself with you. Oh God. True. Entrepreneurship does not fix your inner work. It accelerates it and it removes every comfortable place you use to hide from it.

50:31So the leap doesn't create willingness to change. The willingness creates the leap. So if you're waiting to feel ready, start with doing the inner work first. You know, start with this thing, I call it private discipline, building the version of yourself that, you know, nobody's going to applaud for. No one is watching you do the work. It's not cute or anything like that. It's the showing up for yourself every day, filling your own cup. For me, that private discipline is writing myself journal entries from the future as if it's real, reminding myself three times a day, I have an alarm that goes off on my phone that tells me who I want to show up as every day and like putting myself as this person that I'm striving to be, not the person that I am right now.

51:19And it sounds simple. It's not easy. You know, constantly questioning the story you're telling yourself why you're not ready. And most of the time that story is the only thing between you and in your next move. So I have this joke that I think entrepreneurship is the new ayahuasca. And it's like every day you have to look at your demons. I've never done ayahuasca. It's just like all the stories that I hear, but like, it's like constantly purging and seeing your shadows and deciding whether or not you want to handle it and work on that. And if you don't, then you just have to keep drinking the potion, you know, and it's just, if you're really not willing to do the work, it's just going to make it so much worse.

52:00Cassandra Morales Thurswell:I love that. Okay. Final question. If you could get into a time machine and go back in time and give your younger self some advice, what would you say? I think about her a lot. The girl who had no idea what she was doing, but kept showing up anyway. And what I would tell her is you're doing exactly the right things. There are no mistakes. And that every chapter that feels like a wrong turn is exactly where you're supposed to be. And to continue to stay optimistic and keep picturing the person that you want to become and trust that it's already in motion, even when you can't see her yet, you're going to meet someone.

52:37And I wish I could prepare you for how extraordinary he is, but I don't think you'd believe me. And he's going to be the love of your life, your absolute rock. And he's going to be more brilliant than you can ever imagine. And the two of you are going to build something together that neither of you could have done alone and something that will feel completely unthinkable from where you're standing right now. And then you're going to have a daughter and it will be the hardest thing that you've ever gone through, but she will be your greatest teacher and she will crack you open in ways that make every hard chapter feel manageable.

53:12And you will come out the other side more yourself than you've ever been. So I guess just believe in your future more than you believe in your past. That's everything I'd tell her.

53:22Cassandra Morales Thurswell:I love that. Cassandra, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure. I mean it. I've been following your career for a very long time. This has been such an honor to get so much time with you today. Thank you for making the time for me, for our audience, and for your candor. All of them are very appreciated. Thank you. I have been a listener for years and years and years and years. And I can tell you making hair ties and going for walks and listening to all of these stories, I know how much they benefited me as I was going through all my pivots. And I hope someone could maybe hear the same and feel the same spark from my story too.

54:06So thank you very much for having me on.

54:14Cassandra Morales Thurswell:That was the CEO and founder of Kitch, Cassandra Morales Thurswell. For more inspiring interviews with women like Lauren, head on over to secondlifepod.com where we have so many more for you to peruse. If you like today's show, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review us. We love seeing you spread the word on social. And now you can tag us in your posts. We are at Second Life Pod on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. We always want to know who you're interested in hearing from on the show. So send in your requests to hello at secondlifepod.com, or you can DM us on Instagram.

54:54Cassandra Morales Thurswell:I'm at Hilary Kerr. The show is at Second Life Pod. Our DMs are always open. I'm Hilary Kerr, and you've been listening to Second Life. This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hammeris, and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Grace Ingram. Our audio engineers are at Treehouse Recording in Los Angeles, California. And our music is by Jonathan Leahy.