Dr. Jill Biden: Educator and Former First Lady

0:04Hi, everyone. I'm Hillary Kerr, the co-founder and chief content officer of Who What Where, and this is Second Life, a podcast spotlighting women who have truly inspiring careers. We're talking about their work journeys, what they've learned from the process of setting aside their doubts or fears, and what happens when they embark on their second life. Today on the show, I am joined by a very special guest, educator, author of View from the East Wing, and former First Lady, Dr. Jill Biden. Before serving as First and Second Lady of the United States, Dr. Biden started her career as a high school English teacher.

0:47She married then-Senator Joe Biden in 1977, and Dr. Biden was determined to continue her teaching career while raising their family. She also continued her own education, pursuing two master's degrees, one in education and another in English. As her husband set his sights on the presidential nomination, Dr. Biden found her niche teaching community college students. During this period, she also earned her doctorate degree in education from the University of Delaware. In 2009, she finally assumed the role of second lady after her husband became the vice president, serving under President Barack Obama.

1:28As second lady, she led the Joining Forces initiative alongside former First Lady Michelle Obama, all while maintaining her role as an English professor at Northern Virginia Community College. She continued to teach, even upon becoming the First Lady in 2021, making her the first first lady to keep a job outside of the White House. It was an honor to speak with Dr. Biden, and I cannot wait for you to hear from her. Also, if you'd like to watch this episode, please head to the link in the show notes. Now, on Second Life, it's Dr. Jill Biden. So, Dr. Biden, we always like to start this podcast the same way.

2:13What did you study in school and much more importantly, what did you think you were going to be when you grew up?

2:18Dr. Jill Biden:Well, you know, I grew up in the 50s and we were just talking about Philly and I grew up outside of Philadelphia. That was the time of, you know, the glossy magazines and Jacqueline Kennedy was our first lady. And there was a lot of glamour all around. And I would look at those magazines and I thought, oh, I have to go into fashion. You know, this is what I'm meant to do. So I did start out in fashion merchandising. But then after one semester, I had such a fabulous English teacher. I switched my major and I decided that, you know, I was going to take a different path. And I had a very middle class upbringing in Willow Grove, Pennsylvania.

3:02Dr. Jill Biden:I went to a public high school. I have four sisters. My dad was a World War II veteran. So I had a very normal growing up. And so I thought my life was going to follow this very kind of normal path. But yet I did see the glamour on the horizon. And that's where I was headed. I'm really impressed that you had that level of aspiration for yourself at that moment in time as someone who grew up in San Diego in a military family. I wanted to work in magazines, but that came a little bit later. And I feel like kids today, they see everything. They have all of these ideas. But I feel like even for me as a kid, I didn't know that there were so many different jobs.

3:42Dr. Jill Biden:Having raised children and having grandchildren who are a little bit older, I think the early 20s are the hardest years because I think everybody's trying to find their way. And I mean, the job market, there's so many different careers and it's so much more exciting for them. And they switch careers. I mean, I basically stayed the same track. I just tried different parts of things. I also loved in your book that you wrote that your high school, I don't love this part, but I thought it was interesting that your high school guidance counselor told you not to pursue college. And what I love is that you said, no, thanks.

4:15I'm going to go anyway. Oh, my God. My heart was broken.

4:18Dr. Jill Biden:You know, you go in for your like college interview. He said, what do you want to do? Or, you know, and I said, well, I don't know. I really haven't figured it out. And he said, well, then college probably is not for you. And I had planned my entire life to go to college. I mean, that was the end goal there after high school. I can remember going home to my mother and telling her, Mom, you know, I can't believe Mr. I'm going to say his name. Yeah. Mr. Weissman. Ew. Which is a funny story in itself in that when I got my doctorate and walked across that stage, I walked off. I walked down to my mother and I said, Mom, let's call Mr.

5:01Dr. Jill Biden:Weissman.

5:05Dr. Jill Biden:I love that But do you see how it affected me? Yeah I mean my whole life I remember that comment But maybe it was a blessing in disguise Maybe it pushed me a little bit harder to persevere a little bit more So that's the positive take on it I think that's a very positive take on it I also suspect you might have some Scorpio in your chart if you remember that entirely Well Joe's a Scorpio And certainly it's a Scorpio by proximity then Yes, by proximity. Okay, so you graduated from the University of Delaware with a bachelor's degree in English. What made you decide to switch into English other than having this great professor?

5:43And then what made you decide to continue through?

5:46Dr. Jill Biden:Well, you know, I always had a love of reading and writing throughout my entire life. My grandmother was a teacher. I would go to her little one-room schoolhouse in southern New Jersey with her. Three grades in one room, literally, literally. Wow. Yeah. So you have to remember how far back that was. So it always was a big part of my life. And my mother was a big reader. And it's there. You feel it. But you don't know what to do with it. But I just decided I was going to be an English major like you are. Although you went British lit. I went American. I went American, by the way. I hope everybody, which fits perfectly with my life.

6:23Dr. Jill Biden:I don't know what made me decide. It's just something inside you that says, I love this. And why not pursue this? this. Folks can be very strategic about what they're studying, but college is a time when you really get to learn. And it's such a gift to be able to spend time doing something that you love. And I think that if you love something, you'll find practical application for it, as you certainly have. That's perfect. You're right. So talk to me about your job hunt after you graduated. I knew I wanted to be a teacher, obviously. I just applied to schools. And my first job, actually, this is hysterical, was in a private Catholic school, although all the rest was public education.

7:04Dr. Jill Biden:You have to remember, I was like, what, 23? A baby. And they were, you know, not that much younger than I was. And I had long blonde hair. And so I had to pull it back and put it in a bun so I could look more serious for the students. And they'd come in in their little pleated skirts and their, you know, their vests. And it just seems so funny when I look back on it now that I was almost as young as they were. Yeah, a little cosplay. Yeah. And I was in the classroom and I still see and hear from so many of those kids. Oh, that's amazing. And that's a beauty, I think, of being a teacher. You hold a lot of power.

7:41Dr. Jill Biden:Well, I didn't think of it as a power job. But you do. You're shaping young minds and a formative experience. And you're responsible for introducing them to some of the things that they will love for the rest of their life. And I found that to be true, especially teaching in the community college, where I feel students are there really because they want to find a job. They want to find a good job. They want to have a good life. A teacher can really change their lives because you believe in them. And that's truly how I felt about my students at the community college. You know, they were raising kids.

8:15Dr. Jill Biden:They were working full time. And yet they were appearing in my classroom ready to go every day. And I so admired and respected them. Understandably so. And we're going to get to that. But around this time, it's 1975 that you meet then Senator Biden. You got married just a couple of years later. I was a senior when I met him. Oh, my God. A senior in college. Yes. Did you just know? Oh, God, no. No. But you knew eventually. Listen, I was, I mean, I was a senior. You were also a baby. I was a baby. I was dating guys with, you know, hair longer than mine and, you know, clogs and bell bottoms. And so he called me on a Saturday, first of all.

9:08Dr. Jill Biden:And he said, this is Senator Biden. And I was like, how'd you get my number? Because it's unlisted. Can you go out tonight? And I said, I'm sorry, I already have a date. And he said, well, can you break it? And I thought, hmm, it might be interesting just to go out with him once, you know, see what he's like. So I said, call me back in an hour. So he did. So I agreed to go out with him. And like I said, I was used to guys that were, you know, kind of cool college guys. And so I go to the front door and I remember opening the door and taking one look at his perfect suit and leather loafers. And I thought, thank God, this is only one date.

9:54Dr. Jill Biden:So it turned out. You thought he was a square. Oh, I did for sure. Well, he was 10 years older. His first wife had unfortunately been killed in a car accident with his baby daughter. he had bow and hunt as sons but if you know him i mean he's very charming we went to philadelphia to a movie this is what got me we go to the door and you don't remember this but it was like the women's movement and like guys felt like pretty free to grope women at the door when they you know took them home and i mean they expected a lot let's put it that way so we go to the front door he said I'd really like to see you again and I said okay great he shook my hand good night oh how did you feel my hand good night I was in a townhouse I went up the steps was one o 'clock in the morning I called my mother oh my god and I said mom I finally met a gentleman oh I love that and that's kind of what hooked me amazing okay so you guys got married pretty quickly after that.

10:58Dr. Jill Biden:Well, two years. Do you think that's quick? From date to marriage? Yeah. You do? Not like aggressively so, but it's speedy. Well, I had a lot to consider. I mean, he had two children. Yeah. Pretty quickly, it was the four of us dating, not just the two of us. But it was such a natural fit, you know? And then the boys went into Joe one morning when he was shaving and said, you know, dad we think we want to marry Jill oh and so Joe asked me and but he asked me five times because I kept like saying no no no I mean it was a lot to take on think about it he was a senator two children 10 years older but I fell in love with the boys I mean they were so sweet five and six and so loving.

11:46Dr. Jill Biden:I knew it had to be for sure, for certain. Right. Because they had already lost one mother and they couldn't lose another mother. I love them too much to ever think that they could lose me to divorce. And so I had to be absolutely 100 percent sure. I appreciate that you took that responsibility so seriously. That's really lovely. Oh, thank you. How did you find transitioning into, in addition to having a full-time job, also being a political spouse. Were you expected to do things? Oh, God, yes. I mean, I was expected to do things, but there was, you know, you have to remember, after I married Joe, the most important thing to me was not my career at that point.

12:29Dr. Jill Biden:It was that I had to establish myself as their mom. Right. So I took two years off from my career, and I went into their school and I would work in the library and I would serve, you know, hot dogs on hot dog day and do the school trips and all that kind of thing. And they were so cute because they so wanted to be like the other kids and have, you know, a family and be part of a family. And I can remember when I would work in the library, they would trot in with their friends like, look, look, my mom's here today, you know, and they were so proud that, you know, their mom was working in the library.

13:09Dr. Jill Biden:And honest to God, I mean, it was just it that meant everything to me so much more than a career. And I had such a stable childhood growing up. I mean, my mom was a stay at home mom. She was there every moment when I came home from school. I mean, if she went out anywhere. It was like I resented it. Like, why aren't you home? So I wanted to make my boys feel safe and loved. And so I waited to go back to school. But meanwhile, I mean, I had to get used to politics. I mean, I was not. And I still say I am not a political spouse, although a lot of people say, how can you even say that? But I was so introverted, even though I was, you know, been teaching, but to go into crowds of people I didn't know and introduce myself and make conversation, that was not my forte.

14:01Dr. Jill Biden:It was Joe's. I mean, if you know him, he's so loquacious and he loves people and he's, you know, people love him, but that's not who I was. I mean, we are opposites. And you have to remember, I mean, going in as a Senate spouse, I mean, I was the youngest Senate spouse. You know, they were a lot older than I was. But they were so welcoming and warm to me and called me up and included me in everything. Showed you the ropes. Showed me the ropes. But Joe was the youngest senator. I remember. So I was 25, 26. And these women were like in their 40s and had been there for a while, had been there for a while.

14:41Dr. Jill Biden:So it took a while. So at what point Did you feel like this is a good time for me to go back to school, to teach again? How long did it take before you felt like, OK, things are established? I sort of waded in. Like I started part time with teaching when I went back. I also knew I saw so many kids who couldn't read. So many kids. I mean, it broke my heart because it was so much a part of my life. And I knew how reading and writing could change people's lives. So right away, I went back and decided to get a master's in remedial reading. But you have to remember, I was working. I had kids. I had Joe's political career.

15:23Oh, God.

15:23Dr. Jill Biden:I know. It wasn't, oh, God. So I took one course a semester. It took me five years. Five years to get that master's. And then once I got that, I went into the high schools and I was teaching remedial reading. I realized early childhood ed is really where it all starts I mean that's the important part so then I went back I decided I want to get a master's in English so that's when I went to Villanova teaching full-time at this point having had a daughter so now I have three children I went so much I'm sorry I mean I have to say I loved it I loved going to school I loved meeting with other. I mean, I was always the oldest student in the class.

16:09Dr. Jill Biden:That's that was a little intimidating. It took me five years to get that master's. Why did you want to keep furthering your own education? I don't know. I had this curiosity. I just love learning. I mean, I still love it. Each part of my life was so fulfilling. You know, I didn't want to give up school. I loved the learning. I love reading literature, discussing it. And I mean, yes, I taught all day, but it's different when you're, you know, teaching young students. And then I thought, heck, why don't I go for a doctorate? I mean, you know, why don't I have a doctorate? And so I thought, I'm going to go for it.

16:50Dr. Jill Biden:It took me almost five years again to get my doctorate because once again, teaching full-time children. Meanwhile, there's all these campaigns going on, threading through my life. I had to fight really hard for my career to maintain myself, who I was, my passions, my interests. But Joe was totally for it. I mean, he was totally supportive. The kids loved it because we would have Helen Civitelli come and she'd make homemade chicken McNuggets every time that they came. And I'd get home, I swear, 11 o 'clock at night from Villanova. It was an hour from my house. And right on the stove there, she'd have, you know, the homemade chicken McNuggets just waiting there for me.

17:36Dr. Jill Biden:I mean, it was just, I don't know. I mean, it sounds like I'm romanticizing. It was harder, but it was so validating. It was interesting. You fed who you were. Yeah, exactly. So talk to me a little bit about community college and working and teaching for community college, because as you said, obviously, it feels like a very important part of your story. Well, I was teaching in the high schools. I remember two of my friends who taught at community college called me and said, there might be a position opening. You have to apply. They kept pushing me and pushing me. And I was really comfortable where I was teaching in the high school.

18:13Dr. Jill Biden:But I thought, all right, I'll try it. And so I went and there was no more cafeteria duty, no more breaking up fights, no more like calling parents like every minute of the day. I went to the community college. I mean, from day one, I was like on such a high the first year. I loved it so much because I had the freedom to do whatever I wanted to do. There was nobody telling me what to do in my classroom. It was total freedom. It was a different level of respect. And it was a different level of connection because now I was teaching adults. Right. Now I could see the real connection about how I could change their lives so that they could get a job and their lives could change to be so much better.

19:06Dr. Jill Biden:And I saw so much potential in these students who, I hate to say it, but a lot of times, most times, they never saw that potential in themselves. And back then, if you think about it, community colleges had a stigma attached to them. Like, oh, you can't get in anywhere else. You're going to community college. I didn't believe that. And so I tried to build their confidence. And, you know, I always say that a good teacher, I think it isn't about the, you know, can you write a topic sentence? Can you develop a paragraph? No, it's giving the student the confidence to feel like I can do this and I can make something of myself.

19:50Dr. Jill Biden:And the first day, after they got over like the shock of putting their book bag through the magnetometer and everything when I was first lady, after they got over that, they truly saw me as their teacher. Like they didn't think, oh, my God, the first lady's teaching me. And it was actually when you think back on it. But the first day I gave them this assignment where I'm from, it was a poem. And I would say to the students, OK, and I taught in a computer lab. We're going to write a poem today. And they're like, oh, my God, like we don't do poetry. You know, we're not writing a poem. And so I had poems from previous classes.

20:30Dr. Jill Biden:and there was such diversity in my classroom. And we'd start talking. I'd model myself. So I talked about my grandparents coming from Sicily and the sauce on the stove bubbling and the brujol and, you know, the noodles hanging, drying in the kitchen. And then they started getting into it, talking about like one would be from Peru, maybe one from Ukraine, you know, how they grew up, what they grew up with, what meant something to them. And then they got excited about writing their poems. And then they would come in the next class and I would say, who wants to read their poem? And they would, their hands would go up.

21:04Dr. Jill Biden:And it created community instantly in my classroom, which was so important to me. And trust. And trust. And then they just, they, like, they bonded. It was, like, so beautiful. And then they said, and this is adults, Dr. B, can we hang our poems on the wall? And I was like, oh, my God. You know, I said, of course. so I get construction paper and they're hanging up their poems and they're reading each other's poems. It wasn't that they learned how to write a poem. No. Now they felt confident. And so they started that English class, whether they liked English or they didn't, right? Because half the kids, they don't love English.

21:48Dr. Jill Biden:But then they came into my classroom and they thought, you know what? I can do this. I can do this class. And I'm in college now. and I can write a research paper and I can read a book because I've never read a book before. Lots of students like that. Lots. And I bet it's even worse now. They taught me so much more than I could ever have taught them. That's pretty incredible. I understand now why you would hold on to that job and be the first First Lady to also work outside. I fought for that. When I read that, I was like, you've got to be kidding me. You didn't know I worked? No, that you were the first.

22:26Dr. Jill Biden:Oh, yes. I just assumed it's, I don't know why, at some point in history that that would have happened before. And, you know, Joe's advisors were like, why don't you do volunteer? Let's let the little lady do some volunteer work. Like, no, I have fought too hard to get this doctorate to be in the classroom. And I am going to keep my job. And above that, I am not going to ask a man for money. There's no way. I am going to have my own money, my own bank account and be independent. And that's sort of the theme of the book. Going back to the book, by the way, that's like the theme. Be yourself. Stay who you are.

23:07Given the attitude of the time you grew up in, like the fact that you always had the desire to hold on to what made you you independently of everything else that was going on in your world is admirable. and also unusual. Where do you think that comes from?

23:24Dr. Jill Biden:I don't know. I always, you know, wanted my own money. I always was independent as a young woman in my teens. You started working quite young too, right? I did. Yeah. Once again, you know, I had to have cool shoes or whatever. Well, I think that's a through line as well. And here's what really solidified it. So I go to college. I meet this guy. You know, I'm crazy in love with him. We get married in February. Crazy, right? I'm 18 years old. Because I had this romanticized, oh, we'll take classes together. We're going to grow up together. It's going to be this beautiful marriage. Because my parents had a beautiful marriage.

24:05Dr. Jill Biden:Beautiful. But by the time, you know, I was a senior, we were divorced. Going through a divorce and he was successful. He dropped out of college, but he went on to have a business, which I helped him with and own property, et cetera, et cetera. And when it came to the divorce, you think I got equal shares? Absolutely not. Can I tell you? No. Did I even get anything close to it? No. And for the first time I had to depend on someone for money. I was still in college. I mean, it was just too much. So I learned through that, girl, you better stand on your own two feet. You will never, ever let this happen to you again.