Gregg Renfrew Returns! The Founder of Beautycounter and Counter Is Back

23:20They believed in the power of our business model, the community that surrounded us. Like I was really, really excited. And yes, as a female founder, as a woman to have started a business from scratch and to sell for a billion dollars, even though I only owned a small piece of the business, which is also something that people don't realize, was a really huge win for me because I thought at the time that we were going to be able to continue to build on this incredible momentum that we had garnered over the years. that preceded the sale. And I knew that they really believed in the power of our community.

23:48This is one of the things that's been hard over the last couple of years is a lot of people think that I sold the company. It was like, peace out. I'm just going to ride off into the sunset. I don't care about the community that's surrounded that, but that's actually quite the opposite. I care more about the community and the women that I served than probably anything in the world. And sometimes when you're in the middle of transactions, you can't talk about everything, but I did feel at the moment we sold, proud of myself, proud of the community at large, and excited about the opportunity to continue to build on this.

24:16It is so complicated what you can and cannot say. So talk to me about the first few months after the acquisition. Were there immediate changes that took place? Did your role change in any way? And once the ink was dry, were the next steps what you thought was going to happen? Or were you surprised? Yes, there were immediate things that changed the ways in which we were doing business. I felt really intact as CEO. I built a business straight up for eight plus years. And when we did the deal, it was clear that I was going to continue on as CEO and that I was the talent that they were getting behind in my team.

24:54What happened is that literally within, I mean, I swear it was like a week later after we sold the business that the world opened up for the first time since the beginning of the pandemic, that people were let out of their homes. And you know this because you were also in the consumer market at the time, the business, my business, but other businesses as well, especially in beauty, they kind of fumbled or faltered or just had like a weird summer season. And that was because people redirected their spend to fashion for the first time in a long time, they were able to travel. And for people for whom there's a choice of what they can and cannot spend, if they have limited dollars to spend against clothing or beauty or whatever, if they've been spending in beauty for the past two years, and they had the opportunity to go buy a new pair of blue jeans, they were doing that as they should have, right?

25:40On top of it, because all of the people that really built or were the engine of our business, certainly from a customer acquisition standpoint, were predominantly women. They were getting out of their houses too, and they were going on trips for the first time, or they were taking their kids to do things. And so a lot of people have said, oh, well, you just got this pandemic bump, the COVID bump and stuff. And I'm like, no, actually, I think we flawlessly, and I mean this, like I say this with confidence, I think we flawlessly navigated COVID, understood what was going on, and were able to lean into our community and emotionally connect and lift them up during a really difficult time.

26:14What I did not do well as a CEO is anticipate how things were going to change for consumers and for those that represented the brand at a time where people were tired of being on Zoom. So they were totally sick of being digital, but not yet comfortable really being with people physically. And really quickly after we sold the company, the Omicron variant came through. So right when we were about to start having physical meetups again and like getting people again, it was just kidding. No. And I think all these things combined made our business challenging that fall. And so they made the decision, even though we were still growing, but not growing the way that we had projected to remove me as CEO.

26:49That was four months after they bought the business and they started a process to find a CEO to run the company. How did you feel? Pretty devastated. I'm sure that felt like it came out of nowhere. And even so, it's your baby. You know, it was really, really, really hard. I mean, I remember exactly where I was when I got the phone call. I remember exactly what was said to me and I sort of begged them not to do it and to give me a little more time. But I think that there were some signals earlier on that I hadn't really grasped because I was so excited about it. And I think that, yeah, I mean, look, it was a big bummer to say the least.

27:22And I was really, really emotional and really, really sad and angry and all of the above. I'm actually okay now. Like I think that I've gone through it. I'm not angry. I don't think that anyone did anything with malintent. I think it was an unprecedented moment in time. I don't hold onto it because I've moved on and it's in my past. And so I can talk about it. That sounds very healthy. So you stayed on board as chief brand officer for the next few months before leaving the company. What was that transition like? What were you learning from that? And as someone who was watching from the outside, I was like, well, this woman is resilient And I'm sure she is using that deep well of resiliency to get through this incredibly yucky time.

28:04But what was it like for those next few months? I feel like the way that I can describe this is like I was madly in love with my husband and he decided to leave me for another woman. And I was devastated. But I had to show up in front of the family at the family wedding to put a brave face on for my kids and to smile and make them think that everything was OK. And that's kind of how it was. I was trying to create stability for the women that we served because they had an economic dependence on the business. I wanted to be strong for my team. When I left, the CEO didn't feel we could work together.

28:36And that was probably the hardest time of all because then I was completely out of the company and I wasn't able to be in contact with people. And that was the hardest part for me, was allowing him what he asked for, which was the space to do it his way. Can I just say that I appreciate your candor in this and your humanity in it? Because women need to hear stories like this. People need to hear stories like this. People need to hear that it's not just one success to another and everything is this perfect Instagram vision of happiness and success story that building anything worthwhile is painful and complicated.

29:13totally so the next ceo tried to change the business through doing a number of different things changing technology hiring consultants making a deal with ulta which ultimately all of your ambassadors ended up feeling frustrated by because like now they're competing with this giant retailer you're on the outside of all of this looking in were you following all of the changes? Or were you trying to like stick your fingers in your ears and not look at the roller coaster of your baby changing? I was following it because I still had an economic interest in the company. I had a desire for the company to be successful.

29:53I cared very much about these women. I was watching. I was trying to help from the sidelines. I was making suggestions. I was speaking with Carlisle. But I think the CEO didn't really necessarily listen to where my institutional knowledge and my gut instincts would take me. So it was frustrating. But at some point I also was, I mean, I wasn't on the board and I wasn't working for the company. So like I was out, like I really had no say in what was going on. But from time to time I would have conversations with Carlisle and they would listen to me, but it was still challenging to watch it happen.

30:23So then just to like make things even more complicated in 2024, you were thrown for yet another loop when you were asked to come back to Beauty Counter as CEO. That feels like whiplash. for me, I can't imagine. And I remember watching this. I was like, now what's happening again? So how did that conversation go? And how did that feel? So in the late fall of 2023, the head of the board at the time called me and said, we'd like you to come back in as CEO. Did you dance? I think my immediate reaction was like, no, thank you. Like, I'm not going back in. Like, I finally have gotten to the other side of this.

30:57But then, of course, they continued to try to convince me. And I think I really thought about three things. Number one, I had a community of women that I wanted to continue to serve. I felt an obligation to them and a responsibility to try to help them. Number two, my mission of getting Saver products into people's hands of changing laws of changing industry was still super important to me. And three, I had an economic interest in the company. And so for those three reasons, I reluctantly but finally did make the decision to join. On February 1st of 2024, I became CEO again of the company. Which set off another wild series of events.

31:30You returned to the company. Carlisle backed out and handed the business over to its lenders. The company went into foreclosure and then you bought the rights back. That is a lot to happen in a very short period of time. Walk me through what that felt like and where your head was during this entire roller coaster. Well, when I went back in in February, I realized that the business was more broken than I had realized when I decided to take the job. I could sum it up by just saying that I think it was just too late and there wasn't a clear path to success. And I think that Carlisle, having really attempted to find a home for it, you know, really trying to get it sold or whatever, but it was such a monumental turnaround situation at that point in time that I think it was just a little bit too late.

32:17And when I came back in, I didn't realize that. And it was, you know, six weeks later that they made the decision and they weren't going to fund it and it was no longer profitable. So we went into foreclosure and yeah, it was a big shock to the system. I mean, talk about learning a lot. I learned a lot very quickly. We went into foreclosure. We tried to get a deal done. We had some people kind of like circling around the brand. And this is like another one of those stories that's kind of been out there with like people claiming this. There was never like a binding offer. There wasn't a real opportunity.

32:45So what happened was actually this amazing man who was at Bank of America, I had spoken to him on the phone at one point. There was a syndicated, there was a group of people that had the debt on the company. For people that don't understand this, when you go into foreclosure, it's kind of like your house. If you can't pay your mortgage, because basically we couldn't pay, we were in breach of our debt covenants. And I can't remember what the covenant was, but something that we didn't even have enough sales or enough cash to make or whatever it was. I don't even remember. It doesn't matter. But like at home, if you fail to pay your mortgage, the bank assumes the asset.

33:13They then own it because they carry the mortgage. No different in the business world. So basically the syndicated group of banks, which included Bank of America and JP Morgan, some others, they owned the asset at that point immediately. So I was having conversations with their representatives. And ultimately I had one long conversation with one of the men who represent, was representing them through Bank of America, which is lead. And I explained the whole story. We talked. And so on a Sunday night, four days before you're going to go into liquidation or go into auction or whatever they were going to do at that point, through my lawyer, the banks called me and they said, we want you to have your business back.

33:45if you'd like you did something that was important. We don't have a deal on the table. And this is something that banks don't often do, but I really respect them. They were like, we want you to get your business back. Like your business matters and you are an incredible founder. And this is an unfortunate situation for all of us. But like, if you'd like to buy your company back, we'd like to sell it to you because we don't have a deal with anyone else. Craig, that's insane. It was. It was like, I really, really respected them for doing that. And so I then I'm like, I'm on spring break. I'm sitting in Miami.

34:13I was sitting with my kids and I remember my younger daughter and I'll try to say this without getting upset but she was just like you just can't let this die mom and like she kept saying mommy you can't let this die you've worked so hard and so many people are counting on you and you just can't let this die and so I mean I had like 48 hours to like come up with the money and so I dipped in massively into our savings to say the least my husband and I had to have like an immediate conversation we had a family discussion about it it was like a full-on thing are we going to take this risk what does this mean for mom like the whole thing and we made the decision to do it and I then called some of my former investors and a new one and just said listen do you guys want to play ball with me I've got to wire money and like today literally and so like within 48 hours we put the money together we bought the business and yeah and then I had like a complete anxiety full-blown anxiety attack oh my gosh what have I done like I'm petrified I have no idea what I'm doing it was a really scary moment in my life and I sat with Lindsay Dahl who had been my former head of mission who's now Ritual who's an amazing woman.

35:08And I like literally just like cried my eyes out like an entire day like, oh my God, what have I done? But you know this. And then you take a deep breath and you're like, okay, we can do this. We can do this. Also like what a testament to you and the business that you had built, A, that the banks had that conversation with you and B, that you could get the money together so quickly. I mean, there was literally a 48 hour ticking clock to come up with money. These are conversations that usually take weeks, if not months. And I mean, Greg, it's a testament to you, to the type of business that you run, to the type of partner you are, to the vision that you had, to the company that you built, that you were able to pull all of that together.

35:46Even if nothing else, the fact that all of this could come together, I hope that you could appreciate what that meant. People wanted to bet on you. That's validating or affirming. Yeah, it was affirming. It was all of the above. It was wonderful. It was scary. I do really appreciate those that have stood by me, not just people that put money behind me, but my team. I mean, probably the greatest compliment of my life is how many of my old team members asked to come back and stayed with me through really tumultuous times and our customers and women that represented the brands. I keep trying to remind everybody that we've been through hell and back together and we should treat everyone in our community with the respect that they deserve.

36:22If they're staying the course and they're still with us in this new company, wow, we owe them all a debt of gratitude, genuinely. So it's really been a ride, But what a good one in so many ways also. So Beauty Counter 2.0 is not Beauty Counter 2.0, it's Counter. So talk to me about the process of starting over again. What did that actually look like? What was your strategy for taking all of these learnings and applying it to the company and this building a new and improved business? I mean, on one hand, yes, huge, huge, huge mountain to climb. But on the other, you have all of this experience.

37:00You have all of these learnings. You have goodwill. You have people who want you to succeed. What were your next steps besides changing the name and the branding? So what happened was I bought the business with the intention of continuing the operations. And then I really, really quickly realized that there was no way I could do that because the costs were insurmountable. I mean, the technology alone was costing millions of dollars a month. The technology that the old previous CEO had implemented, not you. Correct. And it was like 27 full-time people or something. It was crazy. And I mean, I was like, I mean, I'm like self-financing this with a couple of people.

37:35So I made the incredibly, incredibly gut-wrenching decision to shut the business down. And that came with some pretty negative, challenging consequences or really hard things for people. You know, we had to let go of people without, there was no money. I mean, there was no money. So they didn't get severance, all the women that had built businesses with us, if they had large businesses with us, like I had to tell them that this was over. And it was like over overnight without warning. And that was really hard emotionally. It was just a hard thing to go through as the person delivering the message, as a person receiving the message, people having to live with what happened.

38:11Like that was hard. And there was a lot of sadness, anger, frustration, which all of which I completely understand and misinformation that was being spread and a misunderstanding at times, but that was really difficult. So we shut the business down on May 1st of 2024. And I had no idea. I had no strategy because I wasn't planning on doing this. Right. I mean, it was like I came back in to turn a business around. None of what I thought I was going to do was happening. And so we had a small team that we held on to. And I said, look, I can hold on to you guys for like two months. Can I take a beat to just try to think about what this could look like?

38:43And some people jumped ship. Most of them didn't. Most of them said, like, we're here, which was so amazing. And I kind of gave myself this first couple of months, like this summer, just to think because I didn't have a strategy. And I also knew that to start a new company, even if you based on the core tenants of an old company and you had the assets of the old company, I mean, one, I had to renegotiate every single liability that the old business had. So, I mean, that was an incredibly cumbersome process of trying to say to people like, we're in a shit sandwich. So will you move forward with me if I give you 10 cents on the dollar?

39:13Like I don't have the money. I mean, I didn't have the money. So it was like, that was a constant challenge and people were amazing, especially our contract manufacturing partners. I mean, most of them stuck with me and took huge hits. All of us did. But then I spent some time just thinking and I thought, you know, look, the market has changed. The industry has changed. The world has changed. Like how we bring ourselves into the business has to be completely reimagined. We are disruptors and leaders and disruptors and leaders come out with a new point of view. And I really felt I needed the time to figure that out.

39:40And I think what I came to realize was that there were limitations with the old company, the old company's name counter you know the minute you put the word beauty in it you lose a big large part of the population that might not just be exciting it doesn't allow you to go into adjacencies should you ever so desire i felt like it felt fresh it felt new i wanted to redo the packaging some people really love it some people don't i'm like i know it's subjective but i love it i feel proud of it i feel like it's representative of the brand that we want to become and i think we took a look at everything from how we distribute the products to which products we're going to sell we did a huge skew rationalization exercise to say which products really matter to our consumer.

40:15What does the consumer care about today? How do they want to shop with us today? What is different? How can we do things differently? And I spent a lot of time thinking through it. And we're still thinking through this. And when we launched on June 25th, it was an intentional soft launch because, you know, everyone's like, you did it. I'm like, no, we haven't done it. We just turned the engine back on. Like we haven't proven that we've gotten this all figured out yet and we don't have all the answers, but I needed the time in last summer. And then, you know, in the last 15 months to really think about how might we show up in a way that allows us to serve community, that allows us to educate people, that allows us to advocate for things that matter, that gives people products that they love and done in a way that feels relevant to today and moving forward, taking the best part of the past and all the learnings and mistakes that we made, but also knowing that the world is different today.

40:57And that's what Counter is. It's an entirely new company based on, you know, a new set of circumstances, but certainly with the same commitment to protecting health and safety of people, to driving performance in our products to using commerce as an engine for change and building on community, which I think is the most powerful asset we've ever had. So is peer-to-peer selling still a part of the plan? It certainly is. What we don't have anymore is we no longer allow people to build teams. I think it's one of the things that contributed to the demise of the old business, unfortunately, was just that even when the business was waning, the commission structure was going up and it was one of the millions of challenges.

41:34So we absolutely are building a community of people, which was really the 95 % before who want to be part of the community. They want to be part of the movement. They want to be part of the change, but they don't necessarily want to build a team. They just want to act as an individual seller, creator, independent, however you look at it. And that was the lion's share of the business before. And that's come with some challenges too, because a lot of the people that had teams before really were amazing women that taught others how to gain the confidence or they train them on product and stuff. So we're learning.

42:02It's, you know, community isn't something you just build again overnight and especially in a digital world. And And so we're figuring that out. But I think that we wanted to democratize the opportunity. We wanted to put slightly more dollars into people's hands that were actively working in business. And, you know, they're only 100 cents in the dollar. So how do we move that around? So we're looking at that. We're also looking at independent affiliates or influencers, but separate from those. Who wants to build a really sticky relationship and be truly part of our community? And who wants to have a light touch relationship with us?

42:28And what do our own stores look like? And how do we control the customer experience? I think we are very, very focused on direct to consumer right now. I reserve the right to change my mind and say, we'll open in stores someday. Right now, we're really focused on learning about our customer again and what she needs and what she wants from us. And we're also really focused on a more mature audience, which really was the core of who we serve, was a woman sort of 35 and plus, who I think, as a woman who's well into her 50s, I think we're ignored by beauty. And I think there's still some white space there to really give her a product that she loves.

42:58How did you decide on the SKUs and the product assortment this time around? It's been an interesting exercise. I think, first of all, we learned that the top 50 SKUs were driving 91 % of revenue. I mean, this is true of most businesses, right? And we had like 200 and something odd SKUs. So I think that one thing was, you know, just looking at which products people really loved. And of course, people have been disappointed in some of the ones we didn't bring back. But that's just, you know, I had to look at the business. I've changed my attitude on product. I think over the tenure of the previous CEO, there had been like some mediocre products put into the market.

43:29And I've kind of said to everybody, like, if you're not willing to bet your job on this, it's probably not good enough to bring to the market. Like what can we do and do really, really well? People have a million choices. We can only own some share for a while. We'll never get 100 % of shareable. I mean, even as a founder, there's other brands and things that I use, even though like 90 % of what I use is my own product. Like I'm not 100 % using counter because there are other things I love and there are other people doing great work. But you know, how do we do things that when we show up that we do really well?

43:54Like our vitamin C serum from our old company and our new company, we carried the formula forward. Like people absolutely love that. We have sold millions of that. That's an incredible product. So that product had a right to be on the shelf of counter. You know, another product where we sold a couple of them and it was just a mediocre experience. No, let's get rid of it. You know, it's not worth it. Heroes only? Yeah, heroes only. But like, I think that women have skincare regimens. So we looked at our top line, which was counter time, which was our aging gracefully, because I hate the word anti-aging, because you're aging.

44:21We are all aging. We renovated our, what was countermatched into counter glow and some more deeply moisturizing line. I'm really proud of that. And I'm using those two lines interchangeably. So we brought some newness into the market, carried over some of the old favorites, and we've launched a more succinct set of skincare. We're about to launch color cosmetics. We did all the componentry, and that took some time. But I think it is going to be a tighter assortment, and I actually think that's okay. I think that's actually better. Rather than being like jack-of-all-trades, master of none, let's be really good at less products.

44:48Hopefully it'll work. Who knows? We'll see. I might be wrong, but that's what I think is the way to go. I'd bet on you. So how does it feel to be back in the CEO role? How does it feel three months in? I'm actually really enjoying it. I mean, I'm really tired. I think what's hard right now is just, it's a lot. And my daughter, Georgie, said to me the other day, she's like, I think you forgot, like, this is actually a startup. And you just thought like, you were going to turn it all on. And it was just going to be this big company again. And it's not. And so I think that it feels good. I feel like I'm showing up in a better way.

45:21I've done a lot of soul searching. You know, over the years, I did a lot of executive coaching and learned how to be a better leader. and I've looked at leadership styles of other people and what works today. And I do believe strongly in servant leadership, but I think you are there to serve the people. And I do believe the only business you're ever going to be in is the business of people. And so how do you best serve their needs? And I've tried to be really, really clear and concise with my communication, really direct. When I have to make a difficult decision, I do it and I don't look back.

45:46I'm neither judging myself for making difficult decisions, nor am I doubting myself all the time. I think I'm a better CEO today than I used to be. Not that I'm perfect because I make millions of mistakes every single day, But I think that I feel more confident in the seat than ever before. And I feel really great about the team that I have around me. I'm excited and tired, both. What are you looking forward to in the next three, six, 12 months? I look forward to the day that there is a story written about us that the kind of, holy shit, they did it twice, that they came in and disrupted industry once, and they came in and they did it twice.

46:23And that in doing that, the process of disruption that they emotionally and economically powered up a huge, huge group of women and gave them an opportunity to use their voices and their time and their efforts towards things that matter. On my last day on Earth, like I hope that I've made a huge difference for women and for people's health and people's families. We do have an ability to sort of put our differences aside and find common ground. And I think that's the thing that I was most proud of with Beauty Counter. And I think that's an opportunity for us here with Counter is to allow women to realize that their voices really matter, that their time matters, that their efforts matter.

47:01And together, us as ordinary women can do extraordinary work if we just work as a team. I hope somewhere in that cover story, somewhere sometime three to five years from now, that people will recognize that we're able to garner the love and support of a huge group of people that surround this brand because the work we do really matters and we're really genuinely trying to have significant social impact. Well, you know that I will be there cheering you on from afar. So for the last three questions, I've asked you these questions before. So I'm going to ask you for an updated take on it. The first one is about mistakes because we all make mistakes and I think it's important to talk about them.

47:41So can you tell me about a mistake that you've made in your career in the past six years and what you've learned from it? The biggest mistake that I made in the past six years was underestimating the complexity of the environment coming out of COVID. And not as a leader and as a CEO looking at where the world was going and where the world was. I think I was sort of caught up in the moment and you have to be caught up in the moment. You have to be present, but you have to be future thinking. You cannot just ever rest on your laurels because the world is changing and evolving like every second. And I think that had I done a better job of anticipating what would happen post COVID and what that would mean for society, for the consumer markets, for the women that we serve, for more customers, like I think that I might not have found myself in the position I did with the old company, Beauty Counter.

48:33That's probably the biggest thing that I can point to. And then I think one other thing just to add to that is I'm not proud of how emotional I was. I pointed fingers and blamed others. And I could have spent more time looking at myself in the mirror and understanding how I wasn't a victim. It's just things just happen. And that sometimes just accepting what is and moving on from that is better than dwelling on the past or what you cannot control because there are just things that you cannot control, period. period. So a lot of the folks who listen to this podcast are in their first lives, and they know that they want to pivot or do something new, whether it's in the same industry or in a different industry, as someone who has pivoted repeatedly.

49:17What advice would you give someone who's standing there nervous about making a change in their own career and are just a little bit scared about that leap? So I think that first of all, and I've said this so many times predominantly to women and women that I've served over the years is that it's not that you're not scared. You are scared. I'm scared right now. Like I'm still scared. Things aren't like going perfectly with counter, right? It's hard. Yeah. I'm scared every single day. The difference is, is choosing to walk through the fear rather than allowing the fear to paralyze you. So I think that you can feel scared and still take action.

49:53I think the other thing that I think that people forget so often, especially women, is that you genuinely have everything you need to be successful. And if your gut is telling you that where you are isn't right, or that you have the capacity to do more, or that this other thing is intriguing to you, or that this opportunity is scary, but you really want to take it, then my answer or my statement to you is absolutely take the job, make the move, go for it. You've got this. You just stop doubting yourself. It may take an incredible amount of hard work and determination. And that job that you may take may not be the right job, but it will lead you to the right one.

50:30So don't sit complacent out of fear. Walk through the fear, open the door and walk through it and own the fact that you're scared. It's okay. It's okay to say I'm scared and I'm still going to do it anyway. Yes. And I like that. Okay. So last question, if you could go back in time and speak to 2019 Greg and give her some advice, what would you say? What I'd probably say to her is that you're going to go through something that's really, really, really hard and it's going to test your limits in every single way, but that you are going to get through this, Greg, and that you have gifts to give the world and work that needs to be done.

51:07And that if you can just take a deep breath and get through this, that on the other side of this, something better is going to present itself for you and it's going to be worth it. Greg, thank you. I have been waiting to do this for a long time. I appreciate your time. As always, I appreciate your candor and transparency. I find you endlessly inspiring. And thank you so much for sitting down with me again today. It was my absolute pleasure. And I feel all the feels that you feel right back at you. And I appreciate your friendship and support always.

51:46That was the founder of Counter, Greg Renfrew. For more inspiring interviews with women like Greg, head on over to secondlifepod.com, where we have so many more for you to peruse. If you like today's show, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review us. We love seeing you spread the word on social. And now you can tag us in your posts. We are at secondlifepod on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. We always want to know who you're interested in hearing from on the show. So send in your requests to hello at secondlifepod.com, or you can DM us on Instagram.

52:27I'm at Hilary Kerr. The show is at Second Life Pod. Our DMs are always open. I'm Hilary Kerr, and you've been listening to Second Life. This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hamaris, and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Raven Yamamoto. Our editor is Natalia Perez. Our audio engineers are at Treehouse Recording in Los Angeles, California, and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.