Sarah Harrelson: Founder and Editor in Chief of Cultured Magazine

23:58So, you know, now I look back and I think, okay, I kind of did have these stepping stones. The other thing is, I will say, like I said, I did watch my mom and dad love their careers, but they were constantly working, which of course I am too. But anyway, I was nervous. I mean, look, the magazine grew really slowly. I did it really slowly. But so well. So okay, after two years of doing that, you founded Cultured Magazine, which is the most beloved darling in the industry. Magazine people like myself love it. It has such an amazing cachet and such an intensely devoted following. So talk to me about what your vision was.

24:39How long did you think about it before you decided to start it? Like, tell me about the year leading up to and then the first year of Cultured. I had the whole thing with Ocean Drive and they were going through a merger and that whole thing kind of, it's just a long, non-interesting story. Basically, I got a fairly big custom publishing job. And while working at this big, you know, custom publishing job is when I started the magazine. I had that structure kind of, which was really great and afforded me the ability to start a magazine while also having, you know, a job, frankly, which I did for many, many, many years.

25:17So no, I would say, you know, if I look back, I would say it was like right here, you know, those things that it's like, I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I'm not sure I could articulate it. By the way, I didn't articulate it. I think I like barely told my husband, I just like did it. You know, I certainly didn't do a business plan. It was like one of those things that I just felt really confident and clear about what I wanted to do and who I wanted to cover and how I wanted to cover them. How would you have explained it in that moment? I mean, I think it was kind of like a mixing of all of these worlds coming together.

25:47And the art world can feel clubby, right? The art world has a lot of barriers to it. I think I wanted to look at it in a really different way, which was, I'm not an art world insider. I'm not an academic. I'm intrigued by a lot of these creative disciplines, where they overlap. You know, I remember I did a story on Shigeru Bon so many years ago that I was so proud of. I mean, this is like, I don't know, 2014 or something. And having this like unbridled enthusiasm for the thing that you're doing, whether it's special or not, but kind of feeling it intensely yourself. You know, I was really focused on covering people who I was genuinely and truly inspired by and fascinated by.

26:34And I wanted to be around. You spend so much time getting something off the ground and building something. If you're not crazy about what it is that you are making, do not do it because it is too much work. It is too painful. You sacrifice way too much. Like you have to be nuts about what you're doing to do it. Of course you have to be. And you have the passion. Right. And also you have to be willing. Like, I mean, someone said to me at some point, I don't know, maybe five years ago or something like, I emailed you and you didn't email me back. And I was like, if I had that attitude, I wouldn't have a company.

27:09Like, do you know how many people I emailed you didn't email me back? I mean, you just have to email them again and again and again. Like, you know, I mean, I was actually thinking too, the amount of times I walked around art fairs and like nobody spoke to me. And I was an outsider starting an art magazine in Miami. I was up against every challenge you could think of. And also, I don't want to say I didn't care because that sounds cavalier. But again, I had another job. And also I was just kind of like, I'm happy. Like I had three little kids. I loved what I did. I worked with, you know, two people that I still love, even though I don't work with them professionally.

27:42And I loved it. You know, yes, of course, I wanted to get the bigger get and get the better writer and get more money for a photographer and all the things, but I was happy. So talk to me about year one. What was the cadence? What was the editorial calendar? I had two issues year one. I guess my very first thought in starting the magazine was I wanted to be an art fair companion. Because back to distribution, which I feel like was so formative in my early, I feel like it's like less of a thing, but it was like so important to reach the right people. And I remember thinking, this is a specific read.

28:14This isn't for everyone. And the only people who are going to like this magazine are people at art fairs. So I was like, I'm just going to do all my distribution at art fairs. And I remember an early education was I spent lots of money on getting the magazine to Switzerland for Art Basel. And I remember like talking to some advertiser at some point and saying, well, you know, obviously I'm in Art Basel, Switzerland. And they were like, we don't care. We're a U.S. budget. Like we could care less. And I was like, what? For the audience who might not know, your U.S. advertisers only want to be involved in a U.S.

28:46publication. And then there are European and global budgets. but the U.S. advertisers don't have money to advertise for something that's in another market, because why would they? But I kept going there, you know, because it mattered to me. So that was like my initial plan. Obviously, it's evolved greatly. But I think that was my thought was like, this is how I'll get it out. And this is how I'll get to the people who will care about what I'm writing about. Because this is obviously not a publication for everyone. This isn't a lifestyle publication. This isn't what everybody wants to read. So that was my early thinking.

29:16and again, I was busy. I did custom publishing. Besides my big custom publishing job, I did books. I have some books that I made for galleries. You know, I was doing lots of different things. I didn't have, you know, speaking of fearless, I think people who start a company and just do that. I didn't really have that kind of financial freedom, frankly. You had lots of plates. Yeah, I was doing tons of things. I think, you know, probably even freelance writing at that time too. And you were using all of the rest of your work to fund Cultured as a biannual publication. Correct. And pay, obviously, my salary.

29:49And I just started small and we just kind of kept growing, but we did grow slowly. Talk to me about the funding piece of it, the advertiser piece of it. Was that part of the game plan from the beginning? Because it feels like, and for sure, correct me, but you had touched so many different aspects of the publishing industry. How much client facing ad sales business had you done? None. You're shaking your head. Okay. So walk me through that piece. So I remember R &Co, which is the gallery, they bought my back cover. And somewhere along the line, Hermes wanted the back cover. And I remember telling my friend who now is the CEO of Design Miami that Hermes wanted the back cover, but it sold.

30:33So what do I do? And she was like, wow, you really don't know anything. She was like, you kick them off is what you do. So no, I didn't have really those relationships. I mean, that was an important part of me getting to the other side was a man named Craig Robbins, who is the man that started Design Miami and still a dear friend. And I should note that Alexander Cunningham is my brilliant editor of The Cultured at Home, who's of course one of the founding members of Design Miami. We all go extremely far back together. But I remember being in line in Switzerland actually and Craig saying to me, you're doing something right with this magazine.

31:10maybe I had three issues or something. He said, anytime you have a shortfall in your advertising, I'll make it up. If you have 20 open pages, I'll buy them kind of thing. And the other thing is at that time, again, timing, timing, so important. Craig was transforming the design district and he was consistently talking about me and cultured. So I remember honestly where I was driving when I got a call from Cartier and they were like, hi, we want to advertise. Craig Robbins told us to call. So there was a lot of that. And again, I also think maybe I was hurt by being in Miami because people didn't take me seriously, but I also benefited.

31:49And of course I thought I was selling national ads because I didn't write about Miami. I was like, this isn't about Miami. This publication has nothing to do with Miami. What are you talking about? I just live in Miami. This publication is about the global art world. However, the advertising saw me as Miami. So I did benefit. But again, I've had a hard education in the advertising side of things and certainly made mistakes. So talk to me about culture's editorial proposition, because there's so much I love about it. But I love the way like you're so excellent at talent and whether it's covering talent before their major or like right when they're blowing up.

32:27We always talk about in the office about how you all seem to have like this spidey sense. And I wonder how much of that goes back to like the 17 days of like knowing when someone is going to be right for something, how much of it is the deep, organic, ingrained work that you've done of being in Miami and part of this burgeoning art scene that has been going on for so long. How do you know when someone is right for culture? I think a lot of that's emotional instinct. I wouldn't even say editorial instinct for me. I can see where this person's going. I'm sitting in the room with them and I'm intrigued.

32:58And I do think a lot of that for me comes from spending time with artists, spending time with collectors, spending time with curators. And so I feel like I spent a lot of time really listening. I did a lot of studio visits early on trying to see kind of what institutions were looking at what artists. And I also think that's like to risk taking, right? And as you know, building your own company, I didn't have to sell 17 billion magazine. Like I wasn't like, oh my God, if people don't know this, we're not going to get read. I was like, I believe in this person. I'm going to cover this person. And actually we just did a story on the incredible performance that EJ Hill has right now in New York city.

33:37And he wrote me and he was like, you were the first to cover me in 2016, which is a long time ago. And I think that I have been able to kind of be involved in whatever the last more than a decade in the art world, which has been a really interesting time for emerging artists. I know a lot of the people that I cover, you know, know, I spend time with them. I think that's important to understand. And the bigger magazines, sometimes, you know, they get pitched things first, right? And the smaller magazines and the people like starting something, you're fighting for it, right? And you kind of have to take a different path because you're not going to get the big thing.

34:12So I feel like having to like fight for it made me do it. And now I think, you know, obviously it's so many years later, I think it's like 13 years later, you know, we do definitely get pitched the artist stories that we want. You know, I just always wanted to do it a little differently. I was okay if someone didn't like it. I just didn't want to do the same thing. And so, you know, that means covering people you haven't heard of. That means covering museums in smaller cities. That means covering artists that aren't household names. So I like to think, sure, I like spotting talent early. I like meeting them I'm really, I love the arc.

34:49I love the story. I love, there's so many artists like Derek Forger is another artist who's like, we grew up together, you know, because he's like, you covered me before I barely had gallery representation. And, you know, now look at me and now look at you. And I think that that creates loyalty. And I actually think that it does create loyalty in my readership too. I feel like they've been kind of along the journey of us growing and us crossing over and covering celebrities, but we still, you know, just our summer cover, we had Lisa Yuskovich image and still a very important part. And I think as we broaden and look at the other creative spheres, for me at least, it's always like, okay, does this make sense kind of within the art world?

35:29Or does this person have a certain intention that we feel is aligned with culture? And I think sometimes it's not necessarily about who gets what story or whatever. It's just about telling it a little differently. And I've always been so lucky to have the people who work for me deeply care about artists and really always let their voice lead. I think that's one of the things that sets culture apart is that we really want the artist to feel happy. We want to promote the voice and promote the creative talent or whatever writer, director, artist that we cover. And we don't want to be formulaic. To steal from Chapel Rhone, it feels like your favorite artists, favorite artists are the bulk of what makes up Cultured.

36:15And I love the discovery aspect of it. And I love the expansion that's happened over time. So walk me through how you have decided to expand and all of the areas in which you have expanded and whether that has gone the way you thought it would or differently. I'm so curious. So I have a, another good friend who kept saying to me, I can't believe you're not in the Hamptons. And why are you leaving that on the table? And I was like, I don't believe in free distribution. I can't bear to make a magazine and see it on the floor. And that's kind of what Hamptons distribution is. However, she kept pushing me and I decided to do the broadsheet, which is now our fourth year.

36:50I was lucky enough that my friend kind of prodded me and she works for a fashion brand. And then also to me, I was looking at the Hamptons and what a rich artistic history the Hamptons has. And so many artists lived there and still live there. And I thought, you know, that's the part that I want to highlight. That's our point of differentiation. I was actually just looking at the top selling covers so far this year, and two of them are Hamptons issues. So that's been incredibly successful. Launching Cultured at Home. I have a great woman that helps me and she said, you know, this is a great move.

37:24I think if it weren't for Alexander Cunningham, who I'd had this long relationship with, I'm not sure I would have done it. I'm big on trust and loyalty and working with people who I have some sort of sense of. And she said she would do it, of course, while she is obviously still a curator too. And what this magazine will be will be absolutely incredible and also not following any specific rules. So I think that expansion is going to be really exciting. And I launched the Critics Table about a year and a half ago, which was a really huge moment for me because as a magazine that has grown slowly, I've never really been able to hire just a writer.

38:05I was kind of like joking, like you're a writer, you're an editor, you're a social media expert, you do everything. But obviously hiring people as well-known, as esteemed, as respected, as revered as Johanna Faitman and John Bensler was the moment I'm extremely proud of. And they're going to be launching a podcast under the critics table in the fall. That expansion has been really, really exciting. We did fully paywall the site starting in July, and that's been great. And I think you got to always keep moving. And I think that now with the strong foundation I have, now I do feel more willing to take risks.

38:40You can't be stagnant. And also, to me, I'm just not that kind of person. Like Lori, who is one of my salespeople who's worked for me for 10 or 11 years, she's like, you just always want more. And I'm like, but it's fun. Like, it's just fun. It's just fun to keep going and pushing. And so I'm always looking for the next opportunity and looking to grow and looking to do whatever we're doing better. And I think that movement's exciting. I'm at a very different point in my life right now with my three kids living in New York City and, you know, not having kids at home, which is, you know, a very different time of your life.

39:12So I actually feel like I have more energy than ever. I kind of feel more inspired and like more open and more fearless than ever. And I remember my mom saying that, like she would always say the power of 50. like women come into their own at 50. And I was like, what? But I believe her. And I think that youth is incredible, but there's nothing like experience and the fact that you've done something a lot and you become more willing to take risks and willing to fail, I think, and willing to expand and try something. And if it doesn't work, that's okay. But I'm just not someone who can not keep moving and pushing.

39:47That's just not my nature, unfortunately. Talk to me a little bit about the Colt 100. Colt 100 took me a minute too. That was the other thing that I was doing, again, probably a big mistake, but I was kind of like, I don't want to just do something for the sake of doing it because magazines do it. Magazines do lists. Like, I don't know if I want to do that. And Carol Smith, who helps me, who's an incredible advisor, was like, you need a tentpole. Like Carol Smith from Elle? Yes, the Carol Smith. I was like, Sarah, you have to do it. And it took me a long time to get there, but then I finally got to kind of where I wanted to be.

40:19and we're only in year two, but in terms of what was my editorial vision for the list? What did we want to communicate? And it's been incredible. It has really changed the conversation around Cultured, which of course at the event, I gave a speech and I said, you do really good work for a really long time. And then you put Walton Goggins on the cover in a yellow bikini and people say, oh, now I know Cultured. You broke the internet though, like in the best possible way. And then to see also my Instagram was nothing but that it was at the Guggenheim, right? That's what my entire feed was for what felt like multiple days.

40:55I mean, you just like in between the cover and the event, it was a real huge win. Were you expecting that level of reaction or were you surprised? I mean, I think you never expect to break. I mean, we joke, we're like, there's going to break the internet, but you never really actually expect to. But, you know, I think I wasn't scared. Like I was not at all. Like my team was like, really? Should we retouch it? I was not scared. I was like, it's fine. Like smooth it out a little, you know, and he was so game. That's like, that's the other thing too, is like, we talk about that. Like, how do you recreate that?

41:24But it was like, honestly, it was him because as you know, you shoot celebrity, like you never know what you're going to get and think that where he was in his career and what he was willing to do and the fact that he wasn't so self-serious and all of these things kind of came together at this moment. And yeah, my sister was like, I think you're in like serious radio. and like she lives in a small town in Pennsylvania. And she's like, I think I just heard them say cultured. So it was great. And obviously, look, you believe in what you do. You want more people to see it, of course. So, you know, we did 11 covers.

41:58Obviously, I always want to do a breadth of people. We had, of course, Anne Imhoff, the incredible performance artist, Chase Strangio. We've always done that kind of range of cover talent. And I was also joking. I was like, you do 11 covers, one hits. But you know, the internet is tough on all of us, but that was a nice moment. And the event was great. And the idea with the programming was to kind of bring it to life. I think speaking of clubs and barriers and all the things that probably are still there, but were more pronounced when I was younger in the art world and the media world is I want to kind of put people in a room who aren't always in a room together.

42:35And that's something that's been important to me from the beginning. And I think it's something that I got a lot of flack for in the beginning. And now I think it's like, oh, like, this is an interesting mix. I don't see this person at these events, or I don't see this mix of people. And I like that. I think it's really important to surprise people and not just, we've had all the people who made the magazine and the, you know, like every kind of person who contributed to the issue who could be there or there. And that's meaningful. I mean, it was meant to be a big celebration of what we've all, you know, I have a small team and you know what that's like and how hard we all work.

43:14The thing I say about media too is I don't care whatever level you're at, high, low, mid, it just takes a lot of time. It's one of those things that like putting together, you know, and I'm sure you get it too. People are like, oh, do you mind just like doing this quick story? I'm like, there's no quick story. Everything takes time, energy, effort, resources. so you know my team had put in so much and so it was definitely a very rewarding moment for so many of us who push at this thing and you I'm sure the same you say this piece is as good as this piece was five years ago that nobody looked at so it yes recognition feels good but it's not something you can always control totally so when you look back over the last 13 years of cultured you have created this amazing, highly engaged audience.

44:02You've helped countless artists careers take off. You've had these phenomenal household names on your covers. What are some of the personal stories or favorite moments that have happened through Cultured or some of the things that you're most proud of? There was a moment in, I think it was 2017, 2018 or 2019, that Henry Taylor was coming up, he was having his first European show at the Gallery of Preston Huber in Zurich. And we had Hamza Walker write an article. And I remember maybe six months later, Zadie Smith had profiled Henry in The New Yorker, and she mentioned our article. That was such a huge moment for me.

44:47I did a cover with Toyin Adetola, who's a great artist, who had a very small show at the Whitney at the time, and Solange Knowles that Ewol Erezuka, who's a great artist, shot for me at the Noguchi at 10 o 'clock at night. And that cover was mentioned in The New Yorker at Roundup piece of some sorts. And I think those moments, being able to hire the writers I've been able to hire, having people like Juergen Teller shoot covers for me. I just wrote an email to Susan Orlean, who wrote The Orchid Thief, which I read about 12 times. And my son read about 27 times. And we actually went orchid hunting.

45:22And someone introduced me to her because she's writing a memoir and she's in our upcoming issue. And she wrote me back and she said, this is so crazy. I was just reading your article on Substacks and Cultured. I'm obsessed with a magazine. Moments like that, where you're like, here's this writer in her seventies that I remember the visual of the earmarked book by my son's bed and things like that, where you write someone that you've revered for so long and they write you back like, yeah, I know Cultured. Yeah, that's amazing. I feel lucky to have a small team that I feel close to and proud of and connected to.

45:55I think, dumb as it sounds, every now and then my kids will say something like, my daughter goes to Barnard and she was like, oh my God, mom, I'm in art history and someone who we don't know is wearing a cultured hoodie. You've crossed over. Those moments where you're like, your kids are like, oh, because I think we have our head down a lot. It's hard. Sometimes I'm like, I want to look at my email history, but I actually don't because I don't want to know how many emails I send before 8 a.m. every single morning, often panicked. You don't always take a minute. I've tried to get to the point of being proud, which is not necessarily a comfortable thing for me because I'm always like, what next?

46:31And we have to get that. And we have, you know, it's just kind of my nature, but definitely a couple of those moments or like having people that I think are just, you know, so immensely smart and talented, give their time, energy and attention to cultured is really rewarding. I love everything about that. And I agree. it is really hard to like lift your head up and look around and seeing something that you made in the wild like that, or hearing about someone wearing something that's yours or that's your brand. Like it is the most bizarre and phenomenal experience. Okay. So one of the things that we always like to talk about on this podcast is mistakes because we all make them over the course of our career.

47:13And I think as women, we don't always talk about it. And I think it's important to talk about the mistakes because we need to hear stories of resiliency. And we also need to know that like, you can come back from making a mistake. It's not that big of a deal. So I'm hoping that you can tell me about a mistake that you have made at any point in your career and what you've learned from it. My gosh, I feel like I've made so many mistakes. I mean, I feel like, you know, obviously the positioning of the advertising in the beginning years of culture, it was all a mistake. I mean, not believing in myself sometimes are really kind of second guessing what you're capable of.

47:48Yeah. I think you have to learn from your mistakes. I think it's hard. I think as women probably think more things are a mistake than they are. Whereas I think sometimes that's such a good skill if you have it where you're like, oh, it's fine. I'll just move it off, move it to the next. Getting through the mistakes. I don't have that. I dwell. But I do think that as I've gotten stronger cycling through the mistakes, being able to push through and not take it to heart or let it define you. But yeah, I wish I was different about that. I'm trying to teach my daughters to have that skill earlier on and flex that muscle earlier on because everybody makes mistakes.

48:24I mean, personally, professionally, everything. So a lot of the folks who listen to this podcast are in their first lives and they want to do something different, but they're scared and they're standing there. They're thinking about it as someone who has made that big leap and who did it in a very, I think, judicious and thoughtful way, what advice would you give someone who's, let's say, 38 and is thinking about doing their next thing, but is terrified of what that might possibly mean? Just do it. Every blind spot or every mistake or every catastrophe that we imagine, the chances are they're going to be different ones.

49:02I think there's some quote that's like, action solves all problems. Like, I'm of that camp. just do it. And there's so many of those, like, it doesn't have to be perfect. Just do it. And that's what I did with cultured. I didn't get it out perfectly in the beginning. Of course, I didn't even have a logo in the first issues. I think I tried to like hide them, but I did it. I just went forward. You just can't forward predict everything that's going to come sitting in that of like, I'm trying to do this or what that's like, it's going to be hard and there's going to be a problem, but it's not gonna be what you think.

49:26So you might as well just go forward. You know, what's the worst that can happen? Fortune favors the bold. So my last question is also my favorite question, which is if you could take a time machine and go back in time and give your younger self some advice, what would you say? Go easier on yourself. Have more confidence. Have more faith. Don't take it so seriously. Oh, that hits. Sarah, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. It's so lovely. Like I'm such a magazine nerd and seeing an incredible magazine thrive in this day and age and to know that there's a woman at the helm of it. Like I have just been rooting for you from afar for so long.

50:09And I am honored and so appreciative that you would take time out of your busy schedule to talk to me. So thank you. Well, thank you so much.

50:20Sarah Harrelson:That was the founder and editor-in-chief of Coulter Magazine, Sarah Harrelson. For more inspiring interviews with women like Sarah, head on over to secondlifepod.com, where we have so many more for you to peruse. If you like today's show, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review us. We love seeing you spread the word on social. And now you can tag us in your posts. We are at secondlifepod on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. We always want to know who you're interested in hearing from on the show. So send in your requests to hello at secondlifepod.com, or you can DM us on Instagram.

51:01Sarah Harrelson:I'm at Hilary Kerr. The show is at Second Life Pod. Our DMs are always open. I'm Hilary Kerr, and you've been listening to Second Life. This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hammeris, and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Raven Yamamoto. Our editor is Natalia Perez. Our audio engineers are at Treehouse Recording in Los Angeles, California, and our music is by Jonathan Leahy.