Second Listen: Claudia Sulewski: Founder of Cyklar

22:25Claudia Sulewski:Was that something that had been like on your mood board for a long time, something that you had been thinking about doing? What was the inspiration for saying, OK, I think now is a good time to start pursuing this? Or was that always the plan since you were going to be in L.A.? I mean, film, television, I was always fascinated by it growing up. And because YouTube took up so much of my time, I didn't, you know, do my high school play or anything like that. No, you had editing to do. Yes. Mama had to be home editing. And I remember after my year was Teen Vogue, feeling just this surge of confidence and asking my manager at the time, If you ever sniff out any sort of audition or anything that's happening that's scripted, I have always dreamt of doing this.

23:12And just please let me know. And at the time, Awesomeness TV, which was a multi-channel network, they started creating scripted content that was being produced on a really high level. And quickly after that conversation with my manager, an audition came in. And I booked the role of Nikki on Tagged, which ran for three seasons. and as soon as I stepped on set and had my first day, immediately bit with the acting bug and I started taking group classes and private coaching, all these things and it's definitely been more of like a gradual evolution in my career and it's something that will always be, you know, a huge dream of mine and so when I get to do it, I feel like the luckiest person because there's so much lack of control.

24:00Claudia Sulewski:I feel like that has to be such an interesting dichotomy to go from being like completely in control of your creative endeavors to then like, what is the saying about acting? It's the only art form where you have to be validated before you can practice it. Yes. Like any other art form you can just do. But with this, like you have to be externally validated before you can practice. there's so much internal dialogue and like self-soothing needed to go into these audition rooms and you know feel like you killed it and ultimately maybe you don't get the job because your hair is not the right color or they want someone with a different voice or a different height all these things there's so much that's out of your control you really have to let go and surrender and just trust that like I did as best of a job I could in that room and if If I'm the right person for it, then I'm the right person.

24:54But otherwise, like you just kind of have to move on. And there was definitely an adjustment period. But I think everyone has to experience and go through that emotional kind of lesson learning of like you can't let your self-worth just sit in that basket, you know?

25:09Claudia Sulewski:No, because you're at the mercy of a million other things. And by the way, even if you are the most successful person, most talented person, you will still have that. You're always like out of a job. That's so intense. I'm a Virgo. I could not handle that. But again, I think there's something really lovely about the fact that by diversifying your career, you had different pockets and you continue to do that. And I think it's really great to have a sense of self in lots of different areas. So like if one's going faster than the other, like you don't focus on it as much. It just feels like a way of like taking the pressure off because there's always something going on.

25:49Claudia Sulewski:Yes, absolutely. Well, I'm a big fan of the show Shrinking and the fact that you were in season two was very exciting. You also made your feature film debut in 2022 with the movie I Love My Dad. What is it like to be on set? What is it like to be a creative person in someone else's world after having created your own world for so long? And are you able to borrow, steal, use things that you see on set for the rest of your career? How does that all feed each other? Yes. You know, I think there was definitely like an adjustment period in the beginning because you're learning how to surrender that creative control.

26:33Set etiquette. Yes, I was so used to like, you know, being one of one. Right. So I'm setting up the shot. I'm figuring out what I'm saying. I'm editing. I'm, you know, doing all these things to now becoming just one piece to a greater puzzle. And so I think that had both its pros and its cons. Is that relaxing? Well, I remember like one of my first larger roles, I had such an awareness of what they're capturing within the shot. Like I remember this one moment we're filming a scene in a car and, you know, for sound, like all the windows are up and everything and the mics are hid in the flip up mirror and we had a walkie and someone was like calling to one of the crew members saying, oh, can we move that tape to like, you know, hide the glare or whatever.

27:16And I immediately knew what they were talking about. And so I like ripped off the tape and moved it and put it on the glare

27:21Claudia Sulewski:And someone came in and they were like, thank you. That was what needed to happen, but not your job. You don't have to do that. There's a union that does that, ma 'am. Just because you know how and just because you did it right. Great. But never do that again. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. And so there was a lot of that that I needed to unlearn. Right. And just kind of like understand. OK, OK. But I think also at the same time, I, you know, have such an awareness of, I guess, what my face looks like in every angle on camera and how my face catches light. Like there's all these kind of subtle things that I'm really aware of that I think has lended itself well to acting.

27:59And then I think on the flip side, thinking about like the lessons that I can take from set and applying them to my own channel. I think the biggest thing is just like the reminder that YouTube is so casual. You know, I think on set you're recreating the same moment from four different angles, you know, 10 times each angle. Right. And it sort of like loosened the pressure that I often put on myself to be this perfect YouTuber with the perfect content that's perfectly edited, all these things and like allowed me to embrace the imperfect side of vlogging and just filming one take talking about, you know, what I'm doing and not feeling like I need to say that again, that was a little bit jumbled or whatever and bracing that imperfection, which is nice, you know.

28:47Look, however, we can get to a place where

28:49Claudia Sulewski:we put slightly less pressure on ourselves, I feel like that is a good thing. Yes. You also have been doing a little directing as well. Obviously, you were used to directing yourself. Talk to me about directing music videos. Well, I directed two this year. There was one that I technically directed a few years ago for Phineas for Mona Lisa, Mona Lisa, and that felt very like found footage-y. But this year, I was lucky enough to be asked to direct another music video of his for 2001. And then more recently for his other side project, The Favors, which is a band that he started with his friends. I got to direct a music video of theirs as well and didn't see that coming on my 2025 bingo card.

29:31I've always like had a fascination and desire to direct, I think, you know, certainly because of like the YouTuber inside of me. And I mean, gosh, I've learned so much on those sets and learn something new every time. And I think one of the biggest things is keeping budget in mind, time in mind, remaining composed, knowing how to lead a team, all these sorts of things that like I've never had to consider when I'm making my own content. But when you're getting to do that with a team of people and sort of like understanding, okay, we need to sacrifice this shot because we don't have time for it, all these things, all of that has been like so fun and so stimulating.

30:11I think also just like all the visual components of creating something and getting to direct it, you know, with both of these music videos that I directed this year, I drew out every single shot and created like a storyboard on my iPad and then turned those into pre-visualizations where you edit it together to the song. And so I had an idea of like how everything was going to cut and edit together. And all of that just felt like getting to bring all the creative parts of me and put it together into one project. And oh my gosh, it's just so fun.

30:46Claudia Sulewski:I'm personally fascinated by directing. I wish more women directed because you see little girls and the way that they play is directing. Totally. And then as they grow up, like, I mean, the numbers are terrible of the number of women who direct compared to men. And I think we need more female gaze in general in the world. But I also think the part that's interesting is the level of planning, like the actual on-set directing is the tiniest part of it, right? Yes, absolutely. There's so much prep and there's so much that happens in post too. And with both of these videos, it was such a dream to be so involved with everything down to like the color of the dress that I wanted Ash to be in to make sure that she stands out against, you know the bar in the background and what I'm having everyone else wear and with 2001 it was sort of like a space themed music video where Phineas is like the star of a space movie and he's like in love with the director and there was one setup where we had these giant planets circling around him and all of those I just like ordered from Amazon some of them were like bouncy balls I was ordering different foam balls but it was so fun to just commit so hard and get to look at it from every aspect, every single angle.

32:04And of course, the editing was so much fun and just being super involved in that and just being in the room with the editor for like seven hours straight and trying out different shots and different flows. And so far, it's been such a satisfying process.

32:19Claudia Sulewski:So in the background of all of this, you've continued to create content on your YouTube channel and to your loyal audience of, do I have this number right? 2.45 million? I believe so. How do you even contemplate that? Can you imagine what that looks like? No, my barometer for just like how real this feels. Anytime someone comes up to me and shares like a little, you know, story or tidbit of, you know, how long they've been watching my YouTube videos or the joy that my videos have brought them. That is tangible. And that really makes all of this feel real. But like looking at a number. No, I can't compute that.

32:58I think also because my growth in my platform has been so gradual. It's all felt really organic.

33:05Claudia Sulewski:So speaking of evolving, talk to me about Cycler. What made you decide to get into body care or even really think about product development? Because content is content, but product is its own very different skill set and beast. So talk to me about that. Yeah, I feel like I've been world building for over a decade now, specifically in the beauty space, right? And so I think just with time, I really crafted sort of like my own point of view on, you know, my favorite things about brands and watching other brands evolve around me and getting to speak on products that I love and how I communicate and all these things.

33:47I think all of that lended itself to having like a strong sort of opinion. And the seed of the idea of Cycler really came with my love for body care. It's as simple as that. I feel like my relationship to body care has really paralleled my journey with self-care and listening to my body. And I remember there being like a moment in my 20s where it kind of clicked for me. And I realized I feel like I spent so many years of my life trying to chase like perfectionism and just being a good friend and a good daughter and just kind of people pleasing and spreading myself thin and kind of realizing like you got to recharge that battery, you know.

34:27And body care and just taking care of myself has always been one of my quick go-to ways to feel like I'm giving back to myself. And so that's sort of what started the idea for a body care brand for me is finding a way to like transform those daily routines to really encourage people to get excited about that and lean into it and understand that like it's important to take care of yourself.

34:53Claudia Sulewski:Very much so. And it is interesting because I think that you are uniquely positioned to make this so incredible because of that brand building, world building background that you have. It makes so much sense on so many levels. So talk to me, though, about when you decided to start working on this. How did you figure out what your first product would be? How did you figure out what team you would work with? Talk to me about the earliest moments of Cycler. Yes. So I knew that I wanted to just start off with one product and start really small. The first reason being that I wanted to self-fund that first launch and didn't want to blow through all my savings.

35:33And also I didn't want to overwhelm myself. And I knew that this is my first time doing this. And so any sort of pressures of like building out a full collection and having the full story ready to go, I didn't feel any of that. And so once I kind of figured out like my angle and spin on what I wanted Cycler to be, which ultimately is a body care brand that focuses on efficacious formulas, but also luxurious formulas and combining those two worlds of like having like really potent, active skincare ingredients and botanicals and mixing those with, you know, those luxurious elements of having a fragrance that's really evocative and really complex and bottling that up.

36:15in beautiful packaging and kind of like combining those two worlds. And in terms of like why body cream and the development of that first product, I felt like body cream was a great kind of like entry level product into sharing that message and starting sort of like that routine and indulging in yourself and taking care of yourself. And at the time I basically just started pitching my company idea, my first product to like any company brand incubator that I could find on Google, like literally just started researching, setting up Zooms, pitching my idea. Some were interested, some didn't care at all.

36:57And eventually I found a team with an in-house lab that helped me develop this product. And I remember just telling them like, I want this to be a vegan, cruelty-free formula. I want it to feel this way. I want it to absorb quickly. This is the finish I want. And as each submission came in, I'd, you know, ask for the ingredient list and I'd go through and I'd research all the ingredients and figure out, you know, can we replace this one with something else or is it too important? You know, and just through the whole process, it was a lot of like questioning everything. Why are we putting this in here?

37:30And from there, I really just was able to hone in on all those different parts of Cycler that I wanted to accomplish with that first product.

37:39Claudia Sulewski:How long did it take for you to get from the first sample of the nutrient-rich body cream to the right formula? Oh my gosh, there were so many iterations. I feel like I lost count on the iterations because, you know, I think also at that point, yeah, I was still learning about margins as well. You know, there was a point where the formula was getting too expensive and then we needed to like take it a step back. And I would ask my friends and my family to try it out for anyone listening that wants to start a brand. When you're first starting out, that's kind of what you're relying on, right? It's like your first test group being anyone that is willing to try a bunch of formulas and then just trusting your gut and feeling like, OK, I've created something of value and that is worth being made and shared with the world.

38:31And so then we launched it.

38:36Claudia Sulewski:So launch was officially October 2023. What was that like? It was very overwhelming, both in an exciting way and also so much fear. Just, of course, because, you know, starting anything new is so terrifying. And, you know, at that point, there was so much on the back end that I was doing by myself. Surprise. You know what? And I think it's so important if you have the means and you have the time to bootstrap as much as you can with your first launch and moving forward, you just gain so much knowledge. And with that comes confidence and all of these things and ownership, of course. And so at that time, I was responding to all the customer support emails under a fake name.

39:20Oh, my God.

39:21Claudia Sulewski:Hi, it's Lauren speaking here. And I was processing returns just in my bedroom and having to email the warehouse and saying, all right, this order came like broken. Can we please send out a new one? Here's a photo. Here's proof. And yeah, anything that was on the website, any images, I was literally taking photos of the product on one of those little white light boxes and, you know, downloading Photoshop and learning how to cut everything out and make it look crisp and clean. Oh, you really did it all? Yes. I wanted to do as much of it as I could, you know, and I remember that first launch being so exciting, but also so overwhelming because you really don't know until you start what it takes to own a business and run a business, right?

40:10And keep customers happy and all of these things. So it was crazy. So that was October.

40:16Claudia Sulewski:Then you did a relaunch the following year. So what prompted that? I assume that you made some changes. Absolutely. I think it's important to really think of your business as like a ball of clay, that you are constantly shape-shifting. And I think what that mindset allows you to do is to sort of like let go of preciousness and just understand that like, you know, nothing needs to be perfect. Nothing ever is perfect. And customer feedback is the most important thing. And if there's something that people are super loving or not so much loving, figuring that out and allowing yourself to be flexible.

40:57Flexibility is so, so important as a business owner. And so I relaunched my first product, the Nutrient Rich Body Cream in new packaging. And that was based on feedback. It originally was in a glass jar and a lot of people loved it, but they were like, hey, this is really heavy. I can't like travel with it. And so I relaunched it in these bioresin tubes that are derived from sugar cane. And then along with the new packaging for the body cream, I launched my second product, which is the Sensorial Body Wash. So it really felt like sort of this expansion on what I had started with Cycler and just a little bit more refined with an understanding of like what people loved and what people thought could change.

41:38Right. And they're not afraid to say that. And I think that is, I think like one of the best things about starting really small is you get that feedback right away and you have so much room to play and figure it out and pivot if you want to. Right. And so another significant change for me was also figuring out the price. It was priced a bit higher when I first launched and I wanted to kind of fall in that mid range. Well, it has to be if you have class too. Exactly. And so the packaging allowed me to lower that a little bit. Yeah. And I think with all the changes that were made in that relaunch, there were also so many things that stayed true and consistent with OG Cycler, which is, you know, the fragrance story of that body cream and adding in ingredients that most people think of, you know, using on their face, but, you know, the body also needs extra love.

42:26And also that first product really gained this cult, like love for the fragrance. And so I really wanted to expand on the fragrance story of the brand. And so that's what led to introducing different colors to help tell the story of these different flavors and just kind of like setting the vibe for Cycler. I love that.

42:44Claudia Sulewski:So talk to me about your roadmap. How do you know when you want to launch the next thing? And then I assume you have like a range of things in the works. Is it in part like what lands correctly first. I always think about it like songs, like what is the song that just like came out fully on an album versus the one that had to be reworked and reworked a million times. So how do you think about all of that? So that happens all the time where we'll be working on a formula and one of our newer products, the In Shower Body Oil Balm, that was something that I wanted to launch very soon after the body washes.

43:23And ultimately, we just kept feeling like the formula wasn't it. It wasn't it. It wasn't it. And so that got delayed and pushed to nearly a year later. And so a lot of these things kind of inform you on when they're going to be ready to be launched. They're like children. Yes, exactly. They're like, I am going to be really tricky with your fragrance. You know, I mean, there's a lot of science that's happening here, too. And just kind of exactly navigating how do we make sure that our fragrances are consistent in all these different formats and, you know, and all these things. Yes. I mean, especially if you're adding any like active ingredients in any of these more treatment like products, some things just take many, many iterations to get it right.

44:05And, you know, in terms of what sort of product I'm really looking at Cycler as a destination for your self-care routine, both inside and outside of the shower and thinking about new products, I just kind of run through my routine of like, what am I craving when I step out of the shower or once my skin is dry, you know, and at the same time addressing different skin concerns. Right. And so we're always just trying to think about like, how can we elevate those products that everyone is using every single day? So if that's deodorant, what's our spin on it? How are we going to make this feel sensorial and luxurious, but also that you're taking care of yourself and there are all these other added extra benefits like hydration and preventing ingrown hairs and all these things.

44:49And then on the flip side, really also helping to address certain skin concerns like KP or bumps on your legs, or I'm always walking around barefoot. So I have really dry cracked feet and our glycolic spray, just douse your foot in that before you go to bed, put on a sock smooth next morning. Glycolic spray is one of our proudest formulas, which also

45:13Claudia Sulewski:tends to be stinky. Like that's one of the problems is like efficacious often means, unfortunately, it's like clinical and it's not luxurious. It doesn't feel elegant in any way. So like being able to like really nail that efficacious and luxurious combo, it's tricky, but what a market there is for it. Yeah. And I think also just getting people excited about taking care of themselves and going that one step further in addressing those skin concerns, Like oftentimes exactly when we think about treatments, we think stinky or medical or, you know, not fun, bland packaging, all these things. And, you know, how can we bring back that romance, you know, that a body lotion and a body wash might kind of automatically lend itself to having, you know.

46:00And I think ultimately that's what keeps me, you know, coming back for more and wanting to stick with these routines that I create for myself, you know, on a weekend or if it's a quick daily thing that I like to do. And just encouraging people to like get in touch with their bodies. So we're always trying to think of like exactly those two worlds and how can we find a place where they intersect.

46:23Claudia Sulewski:I'm feeling tired just hearing about all the things that you're working on. And I'm curious, like when you have so many projects going on and so many different things pulling for your attention, what is the time spent on each aspect of your career right now? Because like if I'm thinking of this as like a pie chart, like how much does Cycler get? How much does YouTube get? How do you think about the acting, the directing? Where do you spend the majority of your time and where do you want to spend the majority of your time as your career continues to evolve? Yeah, at this moment, Cycler is sitting at the forefront.

46:56And for as long as I get to do that, I will feel like the luckiest person because it truly, it's so fulfilling and so fun and so stimulating and all these things. And just, I feel so proud of the work that I've done so far with Cycler and getting to do that for as long as I can truly is such a dream come true. So Cycler sits all the way up here. And then I would say acting, self-taping, meetings, all these things. I'm literally after this podcast, I'm going to film a self-tape where I'm crying into a cell phone. I'm glad that we did this first. No, no, no, exactly. The timing really worked out.

47:34Otherwise, I'd be like beat right in the face. You know, I think what's so amazing about getting to work in all these different buckets is I feel like I've kind of come full circle with YouTube. At this moment in time, YouTube is such a creative space for me. For the past two years, I've been uploading just one big long video every month. And it's just a collection of clips. Here is my life in the last month. And it allows me to do the things that brought me to YouTube in the first place, which is getting to edit and piece together a story. I remember at some point sharing in one of the vlogs that like most of the footage is not in order.

48:11And that is because I'm crafting a story and creating montages within, you know, this 30 minute little mini film. And so many people were like, what? This is not in order. And no, because that's the fun part for me, you know, is getting to stitch this together. And so YouTube at this point, it's one video a month. That's really allowed me to have more time with Cycler and now getting to direct. And so I definitely hope to continue to direct in, you know, whatever form that takes on, if that's more music videos or maybe sort of more narrative scripted based content, whether it's a short film or something, I certainly have dreams of that.

48:50And with acting, you make a self-tape, you cross your fingers and you just surrender. That's sort of what the pie is looking like right now. And there are definitely days where it gets overwhelming. But ultimately, I just try to remind myself that this is all to make little Claudia, who like took a chance on herself, proud, you know. I love that.

49:12Claudia Sulewski:Okay, so we ask the same three final questions on every episode of this podcast. and the first one is about mistakes because we all make them through the course of our career. We don't always talk about it because as you well know, social tends to be a little bit of a highlight reel, but I think it's important to discuss the difficult things because it shows resiliency and I think women really need to know like you can fall flat on your face and pick yourself up and keep going. So I'm hoping that you can tell me about a mistake that you've made at any point in your career thus far and what you learned from it.

49:50Okay, here's a mistake that I've honestly, I have made and felt so many times throughout my career.

49:56Claudia Sulewski:And I think it like really hit home for me about a year ago, but it's feeling any sort of imposter syndrome. I cannot express how detrimental that is. I think shrinking and dismissing your hard work is only gonna shut out people from being able to recognize your evolution and your personal journey as a creative person and understanding that it is more than okay to feel proud of where you've gotten yourself. And I just think there were so many moments in my career where I felt imposter syndrome and all that does is just close you in. And suddenly you're having to like change and morph yourself into something or someone who maybe you think should be in that spot.

50:39And really what makes you uniquely you will get you to where you need to go. And so just any feeling of imposter syndrome, get that out. If you're putting your head down and you're working hard, allow yourself to be proud of yourself and be able to recognize that. Okay.

50:54Claudia Sulewski:So a lot of folks who listen to this podcast are in their first lives and they know that they want to expand, that they want to do something different. Maybe it's a different aspect of their industry. Maybe it's a totally different industry altogether, but they're scared. As someone who has pivoted and evolved and expanded in her own career, what advice would you give someone who's standing there thinking about it, but just hasn't made the leap quite yet? The piece of advice I would give is reminding yourself that if you don't take a chance on yourself, nobody else will. You know, I think we're often so crippled by the idea of judgment and everyone, you know, holding a magnifying glass to everything that we're doing.

51:43And everyone is so worried about what they're doing.

51:46Claudia Sulewski:Everyone's so self-centered. No, exactly. They're not paying attention. it is so so important to understand and feel true confidence in yourself I literally have a quote in my bathroom that says when you become confident in yourself others will as well or something like that I really believe that it is like a shift in energy and now I'm just like throwing cliche quotes but like you know they say that like at the beginning of life you start with yourself and at the end of life you end with yourself your relationship with yourself is the most important relationship that you could ever foster and take care of.

52:19I think if you're feeling like you want to change or pivot or anything like that, you're just going to have to do it. And it's like almost frustrating to say because I've been in that place and continue to be all the time with anything that feels scary, but you literally will not know until you try. And the worst that's going to happen is you're going to maybe fail at that one thing and you're gonna learn. I feel like every failure is a lesson and an opportunity to understand even further what you are meant to do and what brings you joy and what brings you purpose and all these things. Because what if the thing that you've been like thinking about ends up not even bringing you that much creative fulfillment and you will never know until you try.

53:04And so I think it's just so important to root for yourself and just take a chance on yourself because no one's gonna like open that door for you. Yeah.

53:12Claudia Sulewski:Women often are conditioned to wait for that external validation. Like it starts in school. Like if I put my head down and work hard, the teacher will notice and call on me. And you get stuck in the cycle of needing external approval and validation to move forward rather than making your own destiny. And I think that's changing. Like I have a six-year-old daughter. I think her world and her relationship to validation is very different from what mine was. Mine was better than my mom's. So I think it's moving in the right way. But at the end of the day, to your point, like you have to root for you.

53:48Yeah.

53:48Claudia Sulewski:OK, last question is my favorite, which is if you could speak with your younger self, go back in a time machine, talk to younger Claudia, give her some advice. Yeah. What would you say? Oh, my gosh. I'd probably revisit like 19 to 21 year old Claudia and I would tell her to stop trying to be so perfect. It is like the least exciting version of yourself. Truly. When you're trying to force yourself to be in this perfect configuration and assume what others expect out of you, you are ripping and pulling like all the best and most interesting parts of yourself. I really hope anyone younger is truly hearing that.

54:28I know oftentimes like the thing that sets you apart can, you know, put people off in terms of like peers at school. And those are the nuggets. Those are the gems I'm telling you that are going to make you such a fascinating, interesting person and following those passions and those interests and leaning into all of that, the mess of like who you are. I just think there are so many like meetings or auditions where I just tried to please people.

54:57Claudia Sulewski:And that doesn't work. So you might as well be you. No, it doesn't. It's boring. Sorry. Being perfect. Boring. Boring. We're snoozing. Hard lesson to learn, though. I know. It really is. And it's a constant reminder all the time in the most like nuanced small ways. I mean, that is like a societal pressure, you know, certainly on women is to be like the perfect mom, the perfect partner, the perfect colleague, all these things. And it's so much more than that. Well, Claudia, congratulations on everything. And thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and chat with me today. I loved every second of it.

55:37Claudia Sulewski:I will let you go so that you can go work on your self-tape. But this was such a pleasure. I enjoyed myself tremendously and can't thank you enough. I couldn't feel more mutual. Such an honor. Thank you so, so, so much for asking me to be on here. This was so much fun.

55:59Claudia Sulewski:That was the founder of Cycler, Claudia Saluski. For more inspiring interviews with women like Claudia, head on over to secondlifepod.com where we have so many more for you to peruse. If you like today's show, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review us. We love seeing you spread the word on social. And now you can tag us in your posts. We are at Second Life Pod on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. We always want to know who you're interested in hearing from on the show. So send in your request to hello at secondlifepod.com, or you can DM us on Instagram.

56:39Claudia Sulewski:I'm at Hillary Kerr. The show is at Second Life Pod. Our DMs are always open. I'm Hilary Kerr, and you've been listening to Second Life. This episode was produced by Hilary Kerr, Summer Hammeris, and Natalie Thurman. Our production assistant is Grace Ingram. Our audio engineers are at Treehouse Recording in Los Angeles, California. And our music is by Jonathan Leahy.

57:11Thank you.