The Who What Wear Podcast: Paul Tazewell Returns! The Wicked: For Good Costume Designer on the Significance of Silhouettes and Creating Reality Within a Fantasy

0:10Welcome to the Who What Wear podcast, your direct line to the designers, stylists, beauty experts, editors, and tastemakers who are shaping the ever-evolving world of fashion. I'm Who What Wear Editor-in-Chief Kat Collings, and today Senior Fashion and Social Editor Tara Gonzalez is chatting with costume designer Paul Tazwell. Paul is the costume designer behind the fantastical, bubble-filled world of Wicked. The finale of the two-part saga, Wicked for Good, just came out in theaters with Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande reprising their roles as Elphaba and Glinda. Paul tells us how he transformed the witches' wardrobes to reflect how they're perceived by the citizens of Oz versus who they really are.

0:52He shares how Glinda's style was influenced by Audrey Hepburn and Marie Antoinette and discusses why he used knee-high boots and sweeping capes to create a powerful silhouette for Elphaba in the final film. Plus, he tells us how he put his own twist on the iconic pieces we know across interpretations of Oz, like Dorothy's crystal shoes. It's all coming up on Who, What, Where.

1:20Paul, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. I saw Wicked for Good over the weekend. So I really can't wait to get into the costumes, which were mesmerizing and incredible. So for Wicked for Good, you were building off of the characters in the universe that you had already outfitted in Wicked. But of course, a lot has changed since then. And Elphaba and Glinda had gone through a bit of a journey and grown quite a bit. So how did you start to think about approaching that change and how it would be reflected in their costumes? When we pick up with Wicked for Good, we are about a year after Elphaba jumps through the window with cape and hat and broom in hand and sings Defying Gravity.

2:00This is that climactic moment where she is really taking hold of all of her power, all of her self-confidence and everything that will then define her from that point on. When we open up to Wicked for Good, we see that she has evolved into this heroic figure represented by a sweeping coat and trousers that we set up as far as part of her silhouette in Wicked Part One in Shiz. She's got some really dramatic shoes and a broad brim pointed hat that is an expansion of the original hat that we have her in. All to set up this organic but self-empowered woman that she's matured into. For Glinda, we realize how she has become a bird in a cage.

2:50I mean, she's become a propagandist figure of goodness. She's instated by Morrible and The Wizard, albeit dressed impeccably in an elegant kind of Hollywood glamour. And then they maximize that by gifting her a bubble for transportation. And then she follows that by adding a fairy princess dress or her uniform of good, which is this sparkling bell-shaped skirt and bodice that's encrusted with glass beads and crystals and very magical, topping it off with a sparkly tiara that has imagery that's bubbles as well. So you see this high contrast between these two characters that we've left in the first film and how they then have realized themselves.

3:37That's informed by their choices and how they're living with those consequences as they walk through life or as they fly through life. You had just touched upon Elphaba is perceived as evil despite wanting to actually help the people of Oz. That's right. And she's wearing all black in her typical witch garb. But as you had mentioned, her sweeping coat and trousers was supposed to be like kind of empowering. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about striking that balance of representing both who she actually is, but then also how others perceive her. Sure. I would say that the strongest point of view that's in operation is how the silhouette that I put Elphaba in for Wicked for Good is nostalgic of the original Wicked Witch of the West from the 1939 film.

4:23I mean, that's the archetype, what we popularly hold on to as our idea of what a witch is. I've taken that and I've reformed that into more of a power figure. I think that because we've got a coat that has texture that feels organic, which aligns her with nature and also with the animals that she's advocating for, there's something that is more badass about her look as opposed to just being a turn of the century dress in black. The coat is slightly reflective because it's made out of a wax linen, which is a fabric that's kind of like a raincoat thematically. This idea of water and how water is supposed to melt her, just kind of infusing as much as possible the Easter eggs or themes that carry us back to the original idea of what her story is.

5:13But then Cynthia Riebel wears it so beautifully. When you think about the hat and how the sweep of the hat creates a great swagger, the way that she wears it, and the collar of the coat, and it's slightly lifted, the broadness of the coat overall as well gives her great stature. the heel of the boots and the height of the boot, which is a knee-high boot, as well as how it sweeps around her legs, all accentuating this idea of power, this idea of athleticism, this idea of being a savior, really, for the group of animals. So I think that it is how I balance that, creating her as an attractive person who happens to like Black versus someone who is vilified.

5:59So it allows for them to see a silhouette and make their own interpretation of it, meaning the citizens of Oz. It allows for them to only look as far as the surface that's being presented from a distance, even if most of the time you're seeing her on a broom and making these assumptions that this is this evil character that's flying around. And you see it represented in all the propaganda, the posters and flyers that are all the way through Oz. I think that that's what is interesting in the design is creating a multi-layered character that is making choices for different kinds of reasons. Much of it comes down to her love of Oz, really, and wanting to preserve the beauty and the inclusivity that was originally a part of the Oz community and now is being destroyed by the wizard and by Morrible.

6:52Contrasting that with Glinda, who is playing everything by the rules and is presenting a persona that is all loving and all polite. And it gives you a different sense of what is it to be good and what is it to play by rules that you don't necessarily believe or that are not well considered for the humanity of your community. So I think that there are very real issues that both of them are grappling with, as well as how they relate to each other and how do they preserve their love for each other. To kind of go back to Glinda, as you had said, there's like a very calculated sense of perfection to the way that she presents herself and puts herself together.

7:35What kind of details did you ensure that her outfits had to kind of have that almost too perfect sheen to them, which I think really comes across so well? For so many of Glinda's looks, I was tapping into the idea of Hollywood glamour that you see represented in films of Audrey Hepburn or Grace Kelly. You know, you see just the fragile nature of how femininity was presented in that period, tapping into what are those ideas within that silhouette, you know, with the sweeping skirt, the tonality of pink and lavender and blue. and then sparkle. Those are all qualities that give you this magical sense of beauty, of romanticism, of femininity.

8:21That's kind of Glinda's superpower. That is her secret sauce, is that she presents a persona that's very enticing for the Ozians. And I'm using those silhouettes in a very intentional way in order to create that kind of persona for Ariana Grande as Glinda. I'm also thinking about Glinda as a Marie Antoinette figure or someone who is caught not having full agency in what her choices are and really just being seen as this beautiful figure. So that, again, is represented in the kind of fabrics that I'm using where they're all very translucent, layer upon layer of tulle and all of the sparkling and glitter and foiling that we're doing in all of her clothes.

9:04And then folding in some of the things that you will have seen in the first Wicked film, like butterflies, like images of bubbles, sparrows. I was trying to evoke this idea of everything that is airborne, everything that feels ungrounded, everything that feels artificial. I think that then plays itself out in all of her dresses. Even her wedding dress has spirals of butterflies that trail around her hem and then all the way down a 25 meter veil, just continuing to put forward this very curated quality of femininity that Glinda personifies. Yeah. And I would love to touch a little bit more on the scene where she almost gets married.

9:50Her wedding dress was really incredible. And as you have been saying, she has such a particular personal style and it really reflects her personality and her role in society, of course. And so when it came time to decide what her wedding dress would be like, what went into that design and how did you land on the kind of dress that she was going to wear? Well, I knew that it needed to stand up to Linda's position within Emerald City. And it is, you know, kind of equivalent to a royal wedding. And we've seen those royal weddings with Kate William, and we know what that feels like. And then to reinterpret that event as a fantasy event, it's like, what would Glinda actually choose?

10:30What is her dream wedding dress? When she glams up, it tends to be this kind of bell-shaped silhouette and a very nipped waist. And then one of the things that we did intentionally was to keep her as open as possible, because we wanted to see the vulnerability of Glinda and what happens to her within that whole scene, going from feeling beautiful to really being crushed and allowing for Ari to really play beyond that. I think the fact that there isn't a lot going on around her shoulders and her arms, but that we lean into a very simple asymmetrical sweetheart neckline, we're focused on her and her face and her expression and where she is in that moment.

11:18There's this sheer pink gown that Glinda throws on over her wedding dress in the scene with Elphaba and the wizard. And it's like a really fun detail because it speaks to kind of how intentional she is to her clothing and her image and the way that she's always thinking, like, I have something to slip on just in case I need it. So I'd love to kind of hear about that choice and why she didn't just stay in the wedding dress. Why was she like, I have a little something else? We first see her in her wedding dress. She's partially dressed. She's checking off all the boxes, something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue.

11:49It's a play on that. She has her own Ozzie-an version of that that she suggests. But she is in the underdress that will then become the full wedding dress. At that moment, when she's in the underdress of the wedding dress, she's visited by Elphaba. I wanted to make sure, and I was always very conscious of this, is to create balance between those two characters because they always enter into scenes from the same level. They are two sides of the same coin, if you will. And so seeing Elphaba's black silhouette against Linda's white silhouette, they both are pretty much occupying the same amount of space.

12:30It allows for you to see them very much in the same light. And it was a little wink to the popular peignoir that she wears in pink. And it has spirals of tulle and she's hanging from the chandelier and she's climbing on the floor and scooting around. This is the serious version of that. It was a lavender lace that has a butterfly pattern within the lace. I love how all that came together. And then the skirt is a lavender tulle skirt that lays on top of it. So it becomes this veil that lives on top of the underdress of the wedding dress in a way that it's almost like a dust cover or it's like this frivolous element that beautifies the silhouette.

13:13It moves really beautifully within the wonderful number. And that's what I love about what it does to the both of them is when you see them waltzing together within that number is, again, they're basically the same silhouette. And similarly, if you look back to when they first came to Emerald City, they were in the same silhouette as well. So we're recreating that moment for them. You know, when they first met the wizard, we're recreating them as more mature women. and time has passed, choices have been made. They've made adjustments in how they see the world. And I think that is very much expressed in the clothing they're wearing.

13:53Absolutely. And I feel like something that's always fun when you're watching a film and you're getting to know these characters is to think about where they're getting their clothing from. And obviously in the Wicked world, there isn't necessarily like a Beacon's Closet or a Buffalo Exchange or a Dewey flagship. No, they couldn't do that. Probably not. Maybe a Beacon's Closet. Maybe, you're right. Maybe that, you know, where did you, when you're putting together these characters, where were you thinking that Glinda and Elphaba get their clothing? I would say that Glinda's clothing is bespoke and she has access to anything.

14:23The fact that the wizard has manifested this bubble machine, this transporter, obviously she has access to the best tailors and beaters of Emerald City. In many ways, the access to the amazing costume shop that we had in London when we were building all these costumes at her fingertips. I would say with Elphaba, what was in operation is the idea that she never goes back to her home in Munchkinland. She jumps out of the window and she leaves shiz behind and that life behind and she goes into exile in the forest. And you can see represented within her lair, there's a loom there so she could potentially be weaving and crafting her own fabric.

15:07Also, when you look closely at the sweeping coat, it is an upcycled version of the trench coat, the raincoat. It's hanging over the bicycle when she takes the lion cub to the forest with Fiero. And we do see it as part of a montage when she is wearing it. this idea that she can manifest these things, whether she is using a spell because she has the grimmery or she's actually manufacturing these things on her own. I mean, she comes from Munchkin land. So that is the land within the world of Oz. That's the land of makers. I mean, they are the ones that are creating things. You see it represented in their clothing, all of the hand-knit items that are part of those silhouettes.

15:51Also, that is the community that is farming the tulips in order to make paints and dyes. So she knows how to manifest things. That's part of the Munchkinland culture. And this idea that the dress that she wore into Emerald City to meet the wizard, that's still what she has on. It's just shredded into a tunic that she's then added trousers to and these badass boots. And then with the additional sweeping coat and the cape, all those elements add to this really striking figure that she has created for herself. And she's well aware of that persona that she's trying to project versus what they have on the posters.

16:40When Fiero comes to her lair and they're going into this intimate moment, then you start to see who is she underneath all of this. you have an opportunity to see what her underwear looks like. And that's been hand knitted. And you see the robe that she's created for herself, which is a recreation of the roots and vines that are surrounding her in her space, where the yarns are kind of untied off and you're kind of trailing behind her. But there's this undulating knitted pattern, a hand knitted robe that it's almost as if she's wearing her surroundings within her lair. I think that that's a really beautiful image to see her because you actually engage with her skin very directly.

17:26I mean, you see that she's fully green. You see that she is very proud of her skin tone, really. And I think that says something about her that she would reveal that kind of vulnerability to Fiero. And I think that's done very clearly. Yeah, that was such a beautiful moment. It said so much without her saying anything at all. Just showing her skin and being in that really intimate, revealing moment was so beautiful. That's what's so wonderful about the story overall. It's my job to show the emotional arc of these two amazing women, to see how they make choices about how they'll represent themselves and how that image shifts as they mature into who they truly are.

18:09And each of those choices are very reflective of where they are in that moment in time. Obviously, like we said at the beginning of the film, time has passed. They're already so different. But then by the end of Wicked for Good, they've once again gone through such a transformation and been through so much. So for you, how significant were the final looks that we see them in? And what did you want to make sure really came across in the final things that we see them in? Where Elphaba ends up is she's a fully realized woman. She moves to a place where she is done with the persona that she is being vilified for, and also done with the good work that she has been about up until this time.

18:50So being able to lay down the uniform of a wicked witch to then take on something that can be softer, that still speaks to who she is, I think, but it is a way that we've not seen her before. So it suggests a very clear evolution of who she wants to be and how she wants to walk through life. And then for Glinda, it is taking hold of what's been presented to her as her calling, how she transformed this idea of goodness, how she makes it an honest and true mission and a way of guiding and leading Ozians in an authentic way. So when she reappears in the pink bubble dress that we've already been presented with in Wicked Part One, because this whole journey has been a flashback, we see how she arrived at that place.

19:49She puts down the classic version of Glinda, which is informed by the Glinda from the 1939 film played by Billy Burt. That silhouette, that's very classic. It's very clean and simple. It's beautiful bodice, all sparkly, moving to a silhouette that pushes forward in a very modern way, but feels like she's taken hold of her power, especially when we see her walk to her bubble and she twirls her wand in a way that, you know, she's made peace with the fact that she's in a very powerful position and moves forward in a very confident way. And I think that silhouette that feels otherworldly is absolutely appropriate for that moment.

20:35And then we see her as this modern view of Glinda as she moves to the end of the film. Yeah. And also something that was really exciting from Wicked for Good was that we got to see Dorothy and the Tin Man, the Cowardly Lion, and the Scarecrow. And the Scarecrow, yes. Those were amazing characters to re-envision. The idea of the Tin Man and the transformation of the Tin Man, which is so magical, going from Bach into the Tin Man. The silhouette was based on the wonderful Wizard of Oz book. Those illustrations from the turn of the century is what I was drawing from. Those are the illustrations that have the funnel for the hat and the barrel for the body.

21:17And John M. Chu's idea was to have elements within the room where that transformation happens in Nessa Rose's office area in Munchkinland. And there are silver and tin items that are on the shelves of this room. That was the intention of the design was that we see how a silver and tin pitcher comes together to be a forearm. And then end irons become other parts of the tin man's body. There's jugs and cups that have handles that become ears, you know, the funnel that becomes his hat. So all of these elements are mutating and transforming into this tin man's body. You know, it's a really wonderful moment that was beautifully made.

22:03The costume was actually made by an artisan. The only element that was VFX or CGI was the joints because we couldn't get rid of Ethan Slater's joints so that it could look more mechanical. but the rest of the costume is one that he actually wore. His face, that's all prosthetics. It's not a CGI presentation. And that's in keeping with what John M. Chu was asking for from Nathan Crowley, the production designer, and from myself, that everything is tangible. Everything is analog. You can actually touch it and relate to it. And it allows for the audience to immerse themselves into this world that feels as real as possible.

22:43and all the choices that Alice Brooks made as well, our cinematographer, we have this sense over the two films that this world could possibly exist somewhere in our universe. And it's because everything is real that is presented, except for the animals. The animals were manifested. And with the animals, I was a part of creating those costumes or clothing pieces as well and figuring out how can an animal on all fours actually get into any of these clothes and investigating what does it require as far as closures, buttons or hooks or buckles when they don't have an opposing thumb, that they're doing it with hooves.

23:26And we saw that represented with Dr. Dilliman in Wicked Part 1, but just how that continues to be the case. what they hold on to when they are fleeing Oz into the impossible desert. I think that we're always trying to, or I was always trying to create a reality for everyone's story, even within the scope of a fantasy presentation. No, I love that you put yourself in the mind of the goat and being like, okay, if you were to get dressed, how would this actually work? They're talking animals, they're wearing clothing, but it's still grounded, as you said, in this reality, I think that really helps bring the whole universe together in this special way.

24:05That was definitely the hope. And then something too, I'd like to kind of talk about Dorothy's or the famous Wicked Witch's shoes. It's funny because I did see some people online were like, oh, I wonder why they made the shoes silver. And I know that it's because in the original book, the shoes were silver and they only changed them ruby right for the Technicolor of the 1939 film. I loved the iteration that you did for this film. I thought they were so stunning. I was like, I want these shoes. So I'd love to hear about why did you decide the reference back to the book? What went into the design of Dorothy's shoes?

24:37I was tapping into the original silver shoes from The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. Except for the 1939 film, those ruby slippers don't appear in The Wiz, and they don't appear in the book. The other iterations of The Wizard of Oz, they tend to be silver. So I thought that it would be more interesting. Also, it involves legal issues as well, as far as the ruby slippers and the two different studios that were creating these films. But I thought that using the silver and crystal would allow for it to resonate more directly to the tornado that was created. I mean, when you look at the shoes, the heel creates a tornado.

25:21And as it spirals up, the imagery that wraps around the foot is like the winds of a tornado. And the fact that it's going to create the demise of Nessa Rose, the house falling on her, all of those are just a witty way to tell that story. You pair that with the striped socks. It's not the same striped socks of the 1939 film we're so familiar with. That stick out from under the house. I still have them as part of Nessa Rose's wardrobe when she reveals the shoes. so that we have at least that nod to the world of The Wizard of Oz from the 1939 film. And those same shoes go on to Dorothy, carrying that storyline when Glinda gives the shoes over to Dorothy.

26:09You know, we see that Dorothy still has those blue bobby socks, similar to what Judy Garland wore with the ruby slippers. So it creates a similar silhouette. It's just shifted to be an original view for our film and our point of view. And as well, the Dorothy dress, it's that blue and white gingham, but the silhouette is one that is based in a turn of the century dress of a little girl. So I'm trying to balance all the imagery that is encapsulated within the world of The Wizard of Oz, and then making use of it, manipulating it, so that it's more meaningful for us as we tell the story. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

26:52And it looked incredible. So amazing. And obviously you also made history at the last Oscars by being the first Black man to win an Oscar for best costume design. And I know the only other Black designer to win in that category was Ruth Carter, who I know that you are friends with and you guys came up around the same time. What does that achievement mean for you? And how did it feel in that moment to also make that kind of history on such a public platform? Also, your outfit was amazing. Ah, thank you. You looked incredible. Let alone, I would say that. Yeah. That was a life-changing moment. To receive that kind of acknowledgement and that validation, even after 35 years being completely devoted to this industry, whether it is live performance or film, and then to receive that kind of public acknowledgement for my work will always be the highest point for me.

27:49I am so honored to join Ruth in that we're paving ground for others that look like us and otherwise to see us as an inspiration, but then to pave ground for young people that will come after us. And I think that that's so very important. It defines what I prioritize as I move through life. As much as I embrace and acknowledge that I am the first Black man to receive an Oscar for costume design, I also want to continue to expand and to be seen as just a very talented costume designer. and then a very talented designer with a design brain that can expand into other forms that might be reflective of personality, but maybe it's real personality.

28:39I embrace all of the good that receiving the Oscar provides. And I hope that it also provides the expansion that I'm hoping for. Sure, absolutely. Well, you're just so incredibly talented. I feel like there's lots to come. So yeah, thank you, thank you. Of course. And then I know in your award speech too, you had thanked Cynthia and Ariana for being the muses for these characters. And I'd love to hear about how maybe their real life personas inspire the looks of the characters. Most definitely they were inspired by both of those beautiful women. I think that having the privilege to spend the amount of time that I did with both of them, mostly in fittings, we were probably meeting with them at least three times a week.