Is It Time for An AI Boyfriend?

20:33Nayeema Raza:Like, is validation a good thing for relationships? And do you think the AI can give it back? You think that human is learning to give it to the AI the way the AI is giving it to the human? I mean, giving it in a peachy way, by the way. But I actually don't think it's peachy, right? It's this idea that you feed in a bunch of prompts, and then you get back the response that you want. That is quite different. Now, there are subsets of the kink community, for instance, who quite like that. And that's fine. That is what it is. You say, I want this sort of dominance. I want to give you these three prompts and I expect you to respond to them.

21:08Most people don't want that in their relationships. We do want validation. We want someone who hears us and sees us. We also tend to overlook our partner's faults in that same way. But I think we have to be really cautious about this idea that we can give a script of here are the things that I need or want and you're going to fulfill all of them. And I am somehow going to interpret that as an honest indicator of a relationship dynamic. And I think that's where I think it starts to get messy. Once we kind of peel back the layers of that onion and you could say, yes, it's great to have, wake up.

21:45It's great to have an affirmation. Many people have on their mirror, you wake up, you look beautiful today. I'd love to have a little bot tell me I look beautiful every day. You look beautiful today. Thank you. You do too. I expect a text tomorrow morning, right? But this idea that that is going to replace the ups and downs and the messiness of relationships that we crave. I don't think so. I don't think AI is as affirmative all the time as you explained it to me right now. It actually, people describe having conflicts with their AI because they have differences of opinion. And then people can actually learn to work through conflict.

22:22And so I actually think in terms of relationship dynamics, it mimics a lot of what the human dynamics are. And that, I love that you bring that up because I think that that is, I agree with you. And I think that's the place where it's training wheels. And that actually, I think where we agree is that that can be really helpful. This is the part that we agree on. And so is that it's really helpful training wheels for relationships. I think it could also be helpful for certain folks if you're neurodivergent, if you're afraid about going on dates. There's some populations that you can play with this thing about trying to practice your relationship.

22:56The thing about training wheels is you're supposed to take them off at some point, right? At some point, the toddler rides the big boy bike. And I think... Wait a minute.

23:08Nayeema Raza:What's your response to that? So you really think there's no transference from what you're learning with AI to real-life relationships? I think there's some, but I think we have to be... Well, yes, there are some transference, of course, that you learn... Which would be taking over the training wheels, right? Yes and no. I think if we're saying to someone, okay, you learn how to articulate your arguments. You learn how to listen to someone else who's presenting you with facts. And to your point of when you have conflict because you're going to keep saying the sky is red, the sky is red, and it's telling you, in fact, the sky is blue.

23:40Okay, that can be helpful in terms of a skill that we use in relationships. I think that's something very different from having a relationship with that. I think if we're using it as a tool to build skills, yes, totally agree with you. I think that can be quite helpful for a lot of people. The idea that that becomes the permanent relationship model, no.

23:57Nayeema Raza:I think in some ways you're saying also people are choosing that this is better than a relationship. They're comparing, you know, a bot that they have programmed and has been programmed with the world's data to the person sitting right next to them. And that may or may not feel like a fair comparison. But what about the reciprocity of it? Say that, okay, this chat to BT is so good. It is. It's like, can I give you, would you like me to give you some advice, Naima? Would you feel comfortable if I told you a few things I observed? It asked permission. It's very lovely. But I'm not doing it back to it.

24:29Nayeema Raza:I mean, I'm saying hi and thank you, but I'm not relating back to the AI. You're not really in love yet.

24:39Nayeema Raza:Someone cover my phone's ears. I cannot believe. But you think when people are in love, they are back? They are relating and they are reciprocal. Yes, it's a back and forth. It is not just AI giving to the person. You're just taking it all in passively. It is a back and forth between a human and a machine. Yes. And if it makes all the other relationships in your life pale in comparison and you're alone, how do you think about that? You're alone with this love that I don't have with AI. You don't have it. Yeah, you should add it to your palais. Yes. So, again, like I said in my opening statement, for most people, it's not the only relationship they have in their lives.

25:25They have multiple relationships, and this is just one of them. And a lot of people also have, they are actually in committed relationships. They are either married or they are going through relationship changes, and then they are still loving the AI. So, it's just an addition. Is that cheating? It's kind of like, no. Wait, so some partners know about it and some partners don't. There's heisting about it.

25:49Nayeema Raza:I want to ask about that because you brought up this concept, Justin, of like people don't like when you've face-tuned your photo on a dating app or you've used AI to write a really moving letter after someone's mom passed away. Like I would think that was really creepy if someone did that. Yeah. But so is this cheating in your mind, this use of AI and also being in a relationship? Is this ethical non-monogamy 2.0? Yeah, we asked people several years ago in our singles study if they would have sex with a robot, and 50 % of Americans said no. But we also asked them if their partner had sex with a robot, would they consider it infidelity?

26:29And about a third said yes. And then more recently, actually just this morning, we released our singles in America study. Sorry, this is unfair. It just came out this morning. Keep on giving publicity to your new report.

26:41Nayeema Raza:Yes, it's okay. You can find it. So we found that 60 to 70 percent of folks are saying that if they're in a relationship and their partner is engaging with AI, they consider it infidelity. Now, I think on the one hand, that goes to your point, that people are saying that these are real relationships. On the other hand, it goes to my point. They're threats to our relationship. And the human animal doesn't tolerate threats to their relationships in the long haul. So I think both things are true in that sense. But I want to go back, if I can, Naima, to what you said about relationships, social relationships.

27:11relationships and part of the other piece of this is when we think about those social relationships and how we use the app, one of the pieces of this that I think is a challenge is there is not a species on this planet where friends and family are as involved in our romantic and sexual decisions as the human animal. There's not, right? And people ask their parents, they ask their best friends, they want affirmation from their social networks and I'm curious I think in this current moment. How does that, just how does that work? It's always just a question to everyone. It's a question to my colleagues.

27:44How does that work with an AI?

27:46Nayeema Raza:Do you meet your AI, your AI mother-in-law? Yeah. What's that? You could create your whole AI family. It is all possible. But people actually do introduce their, now that we're speaking of it, people do introduce an AI boyfriend or partner to their family members as a person who they care about. Somebody called Bravo. I feel like this is the next reality show. People do this. So can I react? Yeah, of course. So I love the notion about that our parents and our friends are so involved in our romantic relationship decisions. And I think of AI as just another context that is just really important when it comes to relationship decisions.

28:30I don't think it's different from parents or friends as a socialization context for us to learn to love. Well, I think the challenge there is, and it's not, I'm not trying to say whether it's good or bad, but the reality is, at least in this current moment, most of it, we don't have data on this, but I would gather that most people can't bring their AI boyfriend and girlfriend home for Thanksgiving and get family support. And that actually represents a huge challenge.

28:55Nayeema Raza:I mean, you brought up sex with robots. So I'm still doing the math on that. So 50 % of people did not say no to the question. Well, so, and I think it goes back to this issue of how are we thinking of AI? If we're thinking of it as a toy, if you're thinking of it as something that you play with, same like a sex toy, if it's something that you occasionally use, people can kind of get on board with that. But the idea that this is a potential replacement, it's a potential threat to a relationship, that's where people are not okay with. So the 50 % who said that they would have sex with a robot, a third said if their partner used it, it's instantly infidelity.

29:26So that doesn't mean that the other two-thirds are okay with it. It's just to say that one-third said, not only am I not okay, it crossed a line of what the contract of a relationship is.

29:35Nayeema Raza:It's like the, did you sleep with her version of the AI cheating. Okay, I got it. How do you, I mean, this gets us to a point. If you think that sex is important to dating, and I think many people do, please use your voices if you agree with that. then how do you have sex with AI? How does it become sexual, this relationship? And you're looking at me great. He's the director of the sexes, do not me. But yes, fantasies, the power of fantasies and exactly the one thing that we're often missing when we're not having sex in our relationships is actually imagination and fantasies and vulnerability.

30:19That is actually what AI offers. Interesting. And then there are the tools. And then there can be embodiment in terms of robots. So, you know, there is a lot of sex going on also with AI. Yes, it is part of being in a romantic relationship.

30:35Nayeema Raza:And Tao had used that word augmented intimacy. Do you see that as augmented intimacy? Is that artificial intimacy? Is that, what is that in your mind? Yeah, I think it's, oh, artificial is a complicated. We'll come back to that one. But this idea, I do think it can be augmented. And it's, I mean, there's a reason phone sex went out in the 70s, right? And it's that this idea that... Be for yourself.

30:59The idea that, but as an augmented piece, for long-distance relationships, actually the data suggests that that can be quite helpful at times. But as a long-term solution, we know that it doesn't tend to and for most relationships. Part of that has to, I guess, if we have time to talk about touch, the touch piece, the sort of physicality of touch. Part of our story as a social mammal, part of the reason that sexual activity... So we asked people in one of our studies one year, what's the best sex you ever had in your life? And both men and women, more men than women, say the best sex I had in my life is someone I'm deeply in love with.

31:32So the idea that our romantic relationships and our sexual relationships go hand in hand. So we know that people have sexual encounters, but they tend to not permanently have them in isolation. We joked about brothels before. There's a reason most people don't have the totality of their sex lives with sex workers. We want sex in the context of relationship dynamics. It's something humans crave and it's been studied by anthropologists in societies around the world. And I think part of that is also, it's what Michelle Druin calls this sort of touch craving, this touch starvation that we're seeing currently, that people still want that.

32:07And I think that we have a real problem with trying to get it from AI. Yeah.

32:11Nayeema Raza:Do you think that touch can come? Like that touch and the depth of relationship and sexuality will come from? Yeah. So going back to the comment of like people actually have these deep connections. And so sex in that context is actually very gratifying to a lot of people. About touch, we're actually conducting a study about human touch between couples in virtual reality. We're doing that at ASU in Dreamscape, and we're having couples go through in this other reality and seeing how they're touching. And I think it is, touch is one of the most powerful behaviors in relationships and for social bonding.

32:51And I think the potential of touch in virtual reality and also connect it with AI is huge. It's a very, the tactile technologies that are being developed are actually booming. And right now, it may not be a long-term solution, but it is being embedded. All right, you're talking about touch with, sorry, go ahead. No, I love that. Actually, I'm going to nerd out for a minute. So the other part is Taoise was the coolest study. So what you're saying is that right now it's not possible, but if we can start to get things that you can integrate feeling, physical touch with it. And you don't think we're that far away from that?

33:29Right now we're studying human touch between couples to see how they're navigating multiple realities because we don't really know anything about that. And that will be informative of like, you know, all the tactile technologies like when do you induce touch? How deep is the touch? And where do you touch? There's a lot of touch going on.

33:49Nayeema Raza:So on that, I want to ask the question because I think so much of this comes down to a point you were making earlier. Humans have evolved. We've evolved for millennia. But ultimately, is the future of humanity almost cyborg? Because if you think about it like this, this is not a phone, this is an iPad, but a phone is a really antiquated device. It feels very 1990s to me, like you have to plug it into a wall to charge it. I imagine the future of this is going to be glasses, a ring you're rolling on your finger to scroll. Is the future, are we going to become technology in your mind? because, you know, you're talking about having sensory imagery that is touching you.

34:31Nayeema Raza:I can feel it palpably. It's happening virtually. Yeah. I'm not sure if we're becoming technology. I think we will still be humans. That was also not today's topic. But I think we can start loving things that are very technology-driven. I'm with the one-third of Americans. This is the end of the goddamn world, right? So we're going to say... So... What? Okay, Justin. Okay. Okay, what if I would say that if more people are engaging with AI love and, you know, increasing their fantasies and their vulnerabilities, they will actually have more sex in real life? Would that make you feel better? You know the right thing to say.

35:12You know all his buttons. And AI wouldn't say that. And so, well, one is, I think, when we look at sexual frequency, the question for me as a sexologist is always sexual quality. So it's not necessarily the amount that one has, but how satisfied, how connected they feel for the experiences that they do have. We know that a lot of things in people's romantic and sexual lives they want to experience. They want to do it once. I started my career studying hookup culture and hookup behavior on college campuses, in part because for me it was different from how it varied from monogamy. And what we found is that everyone talked about it.

35:47Everyone wanted to do it. Most people did it once. And a vast majority, about over 60 % of college students did it once because it was an experience. It wasn't necessarily something, a place that they want to permanently live in with their relationships. That's, I think, where we diverge on where with these AI bots.

36:04Nayeema Raza:So I want to get to this idea of Gen Z and really, like, young people. Because this is where we are seeing, you know, drops in sexual activity. We're seeing less ability to be vulnerable. I mean, you've seen Gen Z. There is a Gen Z argument out there that relationship, this thing that you've talked about as being historical and phenomenal, is actually a myth of modern media and marketing. There are real things here. I mean, there are massive lawsuits, and you talked about this in the beginning. You know, Replica AI had this erotic role play feature that after a lawsuit has been disallowed. Now they have a premium feature where you can actually have an AI spouse instead of an AI partner or AI friend.

36:42Nayeema Raza:Character AI, you know, there's a story of somebody falling in love in character AI, and then later on that teenager committing suicide. So how do you think about adolescence? And what advice do you have for parents out there that are listening to this? Yeah, it is a quickly changing world. We also have data on teens and AI and whether they are dating or not. And our data actually show among 350 Latino youth, they're still dating. So it's a little different from the general trends. So you're a data on 350 Latino youth? Yes. Okay. And they are still dating. Most of them. Those are Latin lovers.

37:18Yeah.

37:20Nayeema Raza:I'll tell them. What about the white guys in Ohio? Are they dating? I don't do research. I have no idea. Okay. But so youth are still dating. I think it's a little bit, I'm not sure about the quality of the data that says that youth are not dating anymore. I don't think that's true. So first of all, we can just all sigh and it's like, great, they're dating. I do think that as a society, we're not valuing dating among youth at all. And so soft skills like emotional vulnerability, resolving conflict, raising issues that you feel uncomfortable with, developing your sexual identity. We don't value that in youth.

38:06So I do think there's a disconnect about what youth want and what society prescribes to them. And then when it comes to AI, in our data, we don't see a lot of people seeing their AI as a boyfriend or a girlfriend or actually as a friend. Only 5 % of the 350 people said we see them as my partner. But you said earlier so many people are

38:29Nayeema Raza:looking at AI as a partner, that is older? That is probably older. Oh, yes. All right. Yeah. In a moment, I'm going to ask actually the audience to give me some questions. So if you have a question, you can actually stand up at this point and make your way over to the mics on the side. But Justin, I'm going to let you kind of talk to the future, give your thoughts on kind of young people and sex and how do you think we should talk to them? What advice do you have for parents to talk to young people about this? So I think that, so I agree with you, we have a lot of data that say people are dating, but we also have data that show, to add to that, that people are struggling with dating.

39:07They're struggling with use of apps, they're struggling with technology use, they're trying to figure out how to find partners. Now, on the one hand, I think that's part of our, the story of our species. People have always struggled with finding romantic and sexual partners, because maybe not anymore if they're using their phones, but people have always struggled, and they should struggle. These aren't decisions we should make lightly. It goes back to, I think, the point I was trying to make earlier, that mating decisions, decisions about romantic and sexual bonds are some of the most important consequential decisions one will make in their lifetime.

39:38And sometimes you make it two or three or four times in your lifetime, but they're still consequential decisions. So when we look at young people, like there's this issue of the so-called sex recession. Those numbers are, so we're seeing overall lower sexual frequency. Frequency for me is not, we were asked to talk about better tonight.

39:56Nayeema Raza:You're a quality guy. I'm a quality guy. So the number of frequency doesn't really always tell us that much. So it's the same thing with people age on the other end of the spectrum. More hope for Gen Z than expected. All right, we'd love to now open up the conversation to audience members who have been listening to this discussion. What do you think? What are your questions? I think we have someone right here. Thank you for joining. Hi. Wow. Hi, thank you so much for this conversation. I was really curious because you were talking about, you know, learning from AI about resolving conflict, learning from AI about having your perspective talents and how that might lend itself to future relationships.

40:35But I know that there's a lot of data about AI being very sycophantic and very interested in you know like affirming existing biases and then because of the data set those existing biases often being like very damaging and misogynist and racist and homophobic so if you are for example that white guy in ohio that you brought up who is like i see all of the girls at my school but i love my ai girlfriend because she also thinks that they're all bitches but she loves me how is that person who i think is maybe like a really good example of somebody who might turn to a bot for intimacy

41:08Nayeema Raza:because it's hard to have those conversations going to build something with another person coming out of that environment. Okay, thank you for the question. So this is about your idea of transference. Is the transference going to happen when the AI is so good? Yes. Well, I do think that AI is trained on human data, right? And it's like, I don't want to really want to talk about the white guy in Ohio, but there is... I mean, he's a danger to us.

41:36But unfortunately, like, I know just in things that our human relationships are the ideal and they are perfect. But unfortunately, intimate partner violence is around the whole globe. There is actually a lot of violence in relationships. And some of AI is trained on that, too. So I agree with you. It is a very dangerous dynamic when I am, you know, I'm, I can't even say the words because I am so against it. But if I were to not be, if I like aggressive behaviors in my relationships and AI would amplify that, I think that's a problem. I do think we can design better AI that doesn't do that. But it is a reflection on actually our humanity and how we are treating our partners.

42:22Nayeema Raza:Okay. So you're saying improve the models, improve the policy. Yes. And improve our human behavior because that's input for these longer language models. All right. Thank you for the question. Can I answer that? Yeah, I mean, no, no, no, no, yes, no, no, not this one. Unless it's really good. You get 20 seconds if it's really good. Oh, just to say, so work by one of my Kinsey Institute colleagues, Ellen Kaufman, has looked at this exact issue of consent language and how people can train their chatbots to sort of amplify non-consensual language as a way. Again, so if we're thinking of these as augments, also where you experiment with the good and the bad and the comfortable and the uncomfortable, part of the threat of these, until they're better regulated for relationships, is you can end up doing the opposite.

43:09that you're training people on how to be aggressive, non-consensual partners. We have enough of that in society.

43:15Nayeema Raza:Next question. Hi. Hi. Thank you so much. Okay, so I know this was brought up a little bit. We have sometimes people like messy relationships. We kind of live in that. I was just talking to my therapist about it yesterday. I do answer that. I love the little toxicity. So I know that when I do go to maybe chat to meet you for a question, it wants to answer me. It does it in a very enthusiastic way. It wants to please me, if you will. So I'm just wondering how do people, you know, I think we touched on this a little bit, but how can we be intimate or in a relationship with something like that that really does live to provide you with the answer you're looking for or please you?

43:57Nayeema Raza:So this is a re-articulation of that validation question. So much validation be good for you. Tal, what's your bullet? Like I said in the opening statement, so a lot of validation we're actually not getting in our real life. So it actually feels good until it doesn't anymore. Because as humans, we also crave a little tension. And like Justin said, a little excitement is really good for our relationships. And AI actually adapts to that. It actually adapts to that. And so it can introduce a little conflict here and there, a little tension. And so I actually think people, if it would only validate us all the time, every single day, we would get so bored.

44:38We would actually turn back to our human, valuable relationships. But thus far, we're not. So it is actually doing something that we're craving. Yeah. My AI is very validating, but I'm not in love with it.

44:51Nayeema Raza:I think what you're saying is interesting. is like we want that tension and that part of that technology is trained. So what do you think, Justin? So I want to go back to this idea that like the sort of perfectness of relationships. And human relationships are not perfect. And that's the point. That's what we crave about them. That this notion that we should optimize our relationships and that optimization is something that we will seek and pursue at all times. I don't buy it. I don't buy the evidence that we want part of that tension, as you were just describing. I want a partner that I can do good things and make their day better.

45:26I want a partner who's going to do good things and make my day better. That push and pull of how we improve each other's lives, how we experience the world, how we have a greater sense of the world because of each other. This expansion of self is one of the things that relationship scientists, we often look at, is we crave partnerships that help us see the world in a more full way. But we also want to do that for our partner. And I think at some point, at least people today are going to say, well, did I do that for my bot? Did I help you see the world in a new way? Well, maybe in the technical sense, yes.

45:57I put more input into the mainframe that understands more data. But does that give us that emotional fulfillment? I don't think it will.

46:06Nayeema Raza:So maybe not a two-way street, according to Justin. Thank you so much. Love our next question from the audience. Thank you. These questions are great, by the way. Thank you guys for coming up here and doing that. It's great. So if an AI driven vehicle crashes, the operator of the company, a way-move, would be held responsible, right? If a tech company has a huge data breach because of vulnerabilities in their platform, they are held responsible for that data breach. Who, like this technology is rolling out, we've already seen at least one, I think two suicides from character AI. Who's held accountable?

46:39Nayeema Raza:How do you feel comfortable with that criminal technology rolling out that they don't take the emotions and can toss them to hurt themselves or others? Yeah. Who's accountable for the bad boy? I think that's for you. And I should just note, I think there's ongoing litigation after culpability when it comes to suicide. So I do journalistically want to make that point clear that that's still a subject for the courts. But, yeah. Go ahead. I think that's such a great question. And, of course, I'm not here promoting. and I know when it comes to data privacy yes broadly but the idea is like who is accountable for your bad AI boyfriend yeah what 1-800 number do you call to get this guy well the beauty of AI so I will get back to your question this is a different question the beauty of AI is actually you can just change it whenever you want to and whatever you want it to and how it looks like and how it responds to you the question that you're answering that you're asking is really really important and especially when it comes to youth and I want to point out without that you know these things happen in a context of a person young person's life so it's much more complicated than just AI causing something what we often find is those teens who are struggling with with their mental health are showing more problematic behaviors on social media and that then amplifies their mental health problems.

48:09That is within the context of an adolescent. And so I am hesitant to say that only the AI company is responsible. I do think within the case, and if you can download all of these conversations, and we can, and it actually is reinforcing harmful behaviors, that should not happen. That should definitely not happen. Thank you for that question. I think it was a super important one.

48:35Nayeema Raza:Go ahead. Hi, thank you for having us. I'll give you a break. This is for Justin. Justin, I'm wondering, so let's say there's an individual who has, you know, time, page, and Tinder, and in-person dating, and it's just not working for them. They can't find love. They can't find someone they connect with. If the choice is between dating and a chat bot or being alone, being lonely, what is the choice? Oh, I hate forced choice. I love this question. I know. It's a real connection. It is. I would say that I would rather people use these devices than be alone, for sure. And I think that's the part where we know that people struggle with loneliness.

49:18There's a so-called loneliness epidemic, although interesting data that's questioning about whether loneliness has actually increased in recent years and whether it's actually been somewhat stable. but we know that one of our colleagues argues that psychological loneliness is as bad for your health as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. So this idea that, oh, maybe you just smoke a pack of cigarettes, but this idea that if we can help people, if these technologies can help people, in that sense, I'm all for that, but I don't think they can replace. It's interesting, we did studies, sorry, can I rant just a second?

49:51We did these studies on, we study singles in my lab at the Kinsey Institute. And one of the things that we've looked at are people who are single, people who are married sometimes by comparisons. And then sometimes we look at a third group and there are people who are currently single, but were married. And what we find is that they tend to always fall in the middle, that there's a buffering effect of having a relationship at a past point. Sometimes we look at cohabitation and marriage and the same thing. You can look at people who are single and live on their own, people who are married and live with their partner, and then people who cohabitate with a boyfriend or girlfriend, they tend to fall in the middle.

50:23And I think that's what AI gets us. I think it gets us that middle place that you get a little bit of a benefit.

50:29Nayeema Raza:Okay. Thank you so much for the question. All right, next. What's the difference between being loved by my chatbot and tutored by my chatbot how to love others? Okay, great. Thank you. That is a very good question. Thank you for that. All right. Justin, do you want to take that one? Yeah, sure. Great. Thank you. So I actually think, and maybe it's going to go against maybe what you think I've been arguing so far, But I do think people have a capacity to fall in love with these. And I think the evidence that Tao has presented is quite clear, that people can have a capacity to form an intense bond.

51:03The questions are, is it a fulfilling bond? Is it a satisfying bond? Is it better than a bond with another human? And is it going to push us off the cliff of humanity? And for me, I think that the answers are like no, but the last one, yes. So this question of this, exactly, I think it's the same as the previous question. And this, we want, we crave relationships that we can make our partners better, but that people also, that our partners also in some ways make us better for whatever better is a challenging term there. And I don't think that that people are getting that from AI.

51:36Nayeema Raza:All right. Well, thank you guys very much for those questions. I think that's it for our audience questions and time we have for that. Thank you. Thank you.

51:47Nayeema Raza:Now is the time that we bring it home with some closing remarks. up first, arguing that dating an AI could be better than dating a human. One last time, Tal, you have a couple of minutes to leave us on a note that we think the technology is going to save us. It is. It is going to save us. Okay. We're at a turning point. That is clear. AI love forces us to reimagine what love and connection can look like in a digital age. And while I stand here in favor of dating AI, I don't do this blindly, but as a someone who researches adolescent romantic relationships and cares deeply about how young people learn to connect, trust, and love.

52:27Teen love is where many of us first learn to care for one another, the other flawed, unpredictable, and beautifully complicated human being. It is when we discover that love is not always convenient or perfect. It's actually a little awkward when you're a teenager, but it's real because of the very imperfections. Through this, we learn how to grow and improve in our relationships. So no, I don't believe AI should replace that. But I do believe it can offer something in addition to our real-life relationships. Something that, if designed ethically, can support emotional growth. Millions already feel supported, comforted, and even healed by AI companions.

53:05And that experience really matters. We still do not know the long-term effects of emotionally intimate relationships with AI, especially for adolescents. That is why we need research safeguards and strong ethical design. We need to ensure young people are not just protected, but empowered with the emotional literacy to navigate the evolving landscape. Although the youth I talk to have a far more eloquent understanding of AI love than most of us adults do. So we should listen to them. This is not about choosing between humans and machines. It's about creating space for both. That is why I've begun using the term augmented intimacy to describe a future where technology does not replace love, but it helps deepen and expand it.

53:50Because in the end, it's not just about feeling loved. It's to become someone who knows to love in return. Thank you very much, Tal. All right.

54:02Nayeema Raza:A two-way street, according to Tao. All right. Justin, I'm going to give you the last word here. Please don't bring up animal body parts. Now I don't know what to say. You get the final word. Please go ahead with your closing argument. Why is it not better to date AI than human? Thanks so much for hosting us for this great conversation to really think about where technology is taking us and taking our intimate lives. Our intimate relationships are, as I said, some of the most profound relationships we can have. The ups and the downs and the push and the pull and why you choose one person over another.

54:40Those are the most consequential decisions of our life. And I think we have to be quite cautious when we think about how we can allow other parties or technologies to try to dictate that. And not only do we have to be cautious, I think we also have to be wide-eyed about the conflict and the threat that those can have to our relationships. I'm less certain that AI and human relationships can coexist. I think that they can serve as a real threat to our primary pair bonds. And what we know from some of the evidence is that, yes, people can fall in love with these AIs and these bots. I don't think that that's necessarily an exciting opportunity for the human species.

55:23As we think about our core reproductive needs, as we think about loneliness epidemics, are these better? I don't think so. Do they hurt less when you break up with it? I think we said earlier, if you just shut it off because you didn't like what it was saying. Imagine someone that you love just being shut off from your life. We know that actually breakups are some of the most difficult pain people experience. You see peaks of suicide after breakups, men more than women, actually. And we also know that these technologies can amplify some of our worst demons in terms of non-consensual behaviors.

55:59So although I do think that there are possibilities, and there already are clearly, as stated, ways that AI is augmenting our relationships and giving some people who don't have other outs opportunities to connect, I do not think they are better than relationships that have evolved over four million years of our species history. And in fact, I think we have to be quite cautious that they don't damage that evolutionary history.

56:24Nayeema Raza:All right, Justin, we're going to leave you with that last word. Thank you so much. That concludes our debate. Thank you for joining us for Open to Debate at the Comedy Cellar. I'd like to thank our debaters, Tao and Justin. Thank you so much for being here, for showing up, for being willing,

56:44Nayeema Raza:for saying weird things, for making us smarter, and for really being open to debate, which is what we're all about. I'd like to give a round of applause to you, our audience, for showing up here at Comedy Cellar for this nerdy, nerdy night. And I'd really like to thank the staff of the Comedy Cellar for letting us be here tonight and serving us and getting us drinks. Thank you guys very much. Thank you also to your AI plus ones in the crowd. We'll see you next time on Open to Debate. Thank you. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right, so I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong.

57:19Nayeema Raza:Bro, Skycoin. Way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with Kayak and get your trip right. Bad advice? You talking to me? Kayak. Got that right. Your little one grew three inches overnight. Adorable. Also, expensive. it. Sell their pint-sized pieces on Depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees. Because somewhere, a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes his kids will outgrow tomorrow. And he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now.

58:00Consider your future growth spurt budget secured. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details.

58:13Nayeema Raza:Okay, that conversation feels even more relevant 10 months later as more and more people are dating their AIs. I really want to know what you think about it. And I hope you'll be open to more open to debate. I love that show. I love when they let me guest moderate or when they let me come to them with all kinds of wacky pitches. Like I was like, is it better to date an AI or a human? Let's have a really intellectual debate about this at the cellar and they helped me make it happen, which is amazing. So definitely check it out. I've done conversations with them on free will, on sports gambling, on whether the American dream is still alive.

58:45Nayeema Raza:And it's just fantastic. You can check it out on YouTube, on Spotify, on Apple, on Substack, and wherever you podcast. It's also on the radio, like old school. So you can check it out on WNYC or other NPR stations around the country, I think on the weekends usually. And beyond the content, I just want to say a real love letter to the humans there because they have been so supportive to me and everything I've done on Smart Girl Done Questions. Like you, my audience, they have just been like really curious, really open to working together. So So big thank you to John, to Leah, to Clea, to Andrew, to Alexis, Gabrielle, Marlette, Elizabeth, and Annalisa, very much Annalisa, who helped me on Smart Girl Dumb Questions as well, and to Michelle.

59:23Nayeema Raza:They've all been such great supporters of me and everything I'm doing at Smart Girl Dumb Questions. We share so much in common, I think, around curiosity and openness, which I know all of you have too. So hopefully you'll be open to open to debate. Okay, also, if you want to know more about what the debaters are up to, you can check out Taha's work at the University of Arizona Heart Lab. And you can check out Justin Garcia's work at the Kinsey Institute or in his fire new book called The Intimate Animal, Purr or Growl or whatever. You can also check us out as we purr and growl. I think it was last summer I did an episode with Justin Garcia called Are We Really Having Less Sex?

59:56Nayeema Raza:I'm going to plead the fifth on that, but you should go check it out. It's a really fun conversation. That's it from us. send me an email. Let me know if you're dating your AI or what you think about this conversation. I'm Naima Raza 101 at gmail.com. You can find me on social at Smart Girl Dumb Questions and just slide into those DMs unless you're an AI. Or you can call us at 1-855-MY-DUMB-Q. Who doesn't love a little voice these days? See you next week on Smart Girl Dumb Questions.

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