Mark Cuban: Why Does Healthcare Suck? Can Billionaires Save Us?

22:39So a lot of money. Oh, fuck money. Yeah. So, you know, I always think, like, can billionaires save us? It's like in certain industries, they kind of have to. In certain industries, like— It's not even that they have to, right? It's just who has the time and is willing to put in the focus. And the capital. And the capital. You can raise capital, but I didn't use outside money because I didn't want to be obligated to somebody to have to make money for them, right? Because your mission in this was different. Yeah, it was different not to make as much money as possible. It wasn't a purely capitalist mission.

23:06Because I want this to be so fucking big Right That then I can just walk in and say Okay we're going single payer Because you can scale the thing And then you can So because all that's missing is transparency Yeah Single payer won't work today Because it's not a fair fight In negotiating between the government And the providers And they're always used to using middlemen Yeah Insurance companies Like Medicare uses PBMs and insurance companies Medicare Advantage uses PBMs and insurance companies Yeah Right Which makes no sense whatsoever Right The people who are the bad guys, you're using them, and it's costing Americans more money.

23:41Especially because the PBMs are actually, if I'm not incorrect, owned by the insurers. Or vice versa. Yeah, because, for example, like United, which we'll talk about in a second because I want to talk about Luigi. But the United owns Optum, the physician networks. They keep expanding their physician networks. More, more, more. Yeah, more, more. It's all scale. And then they own also PBM, right? And so the whole point is, can you compete with them through transparency? And the answer is yes, because I can go to all these self-insured companies, and I can go to their CEOs, and I can say to the CEO, you have 100 ,000 lives that you're responsible for.

24:17Why in America is our health insurance through our employer? That's like a World War II artifact, right? I don't know the story, but it's kind of weird, right? It is and it isn't, right? When there's price controls and stuff and you wanted to try to give people more, then healthcare makes perfect sense because that's the scariest thing for a family. So on that end, it makes sense. And then if you're competing for employees, because the flip side is you have to go out and negotiate your own care. Yeah. Or it used to be much easier, right? You would go see a doctor and it was X dollars. And they would just work it out.

24:48X dollars. And that's the whole thing, right? And so in doing what we're doing for my companies, it's like, I want to make it like 1955. You want to make it like 1955. 1955, right? Why? Because that was the year for Back to the Future. Oh, is it? Yeah. But in any event, that's why I just picked that. But in any event, what happens, right? What is healthcare all about? You know, your mom, me, whoever you, go to the doctor. The doctor says, oh, you need to go to the hospital for this surgery. Great. All right. How much does it cost? In 1955, that's what would happen, right? Right. You say, doc, how much it costs for my checkup?

25:22Doc, how much is it going to cost for my knee surgery? Right. And they would tell you. So then the next question is, how would you pay for it? Yeah. Back then, they would say, we'll finance it for you. The doctor would. And they'd give you a loan, basically. The doctor would. They were always kind of in the business of providing credit to patients. Right. Back then, right? But it was direct to the patient. There's no intermediary figuring out a plan for it. Yeah. And so that's the way it should be. So what I do is we go to a hospital and we say, right now, you're losing money in your contract with the insurance company because they're not paying their bills.

25:56are doing denials, right? They're playing all these games, sitting high deductibles, and you guys lose money as a result. Instead of all that mishigas, right? What I'm going to do is I'm going to pay you cash, and I'm going to pay you right up front. There'll be no denials. Okay. No pre-offs at all. We're going to trust the doctor until you give us a reason not to. There'll be no employee deductibles, so I'll be responsible for paying 100 % of it. Yeah. And in exchange, I want pricing at about 120 % of Medicare. Okay. Which is fair for me and should allow them to make money. Is this your new business?

26:30Are you going to get into the insurance market? No, I just, I don't even want to make it. I want insurance to go away. You want to incentivize all the other capitalists, all the other employers to move into a direct market. I want the employers to stop using insurance companies when they don't need insurance, right? Because they self-insure. Self-insured employers are already in a position to dictate pricing if they're educated enough on how to dictate pricing for pharmaceuticals and for healthcare. They just haven't done it. Isn't it a huge cost? Are they wasting money right now? Yes, they're wasting a boatload of money.

27:02Make sure they heard that. But they haven't been educated on it because you're CEO of your company and you know podcast industry. You're living and learning a podcast industry. And once you get up to 100 employees or whatever, hopefully tomorrow, right? But you're not going to immediately. After this episode, Mark. Exactly. And your investment and your bigcostplusdrugs.com advertisement on my podcast. Always, always. Fortunately, we haven't had to spend a nickel on advertising. I mean, you're a billboard, Mark. I am a walking billboard. So I feel. But anyway, so once you get to that size, you still need to be educated on the healthcare side.

27:40Right. That's where we come in. The goal is if I can work with these companies and make them demand transparency, publish contracts and do direct contracting so everybody knows the pricing. and then act as the financial backstop, all this becomes public, and other companies can make wiser decisions themselves. Now, all of a sudden, instead of us looking at healthcare as this horrific system, now Bernie can come in and say, oh, now we know what it all costs, and we know that you make money at this, this, and this, so here's what we can afford to pay. So basically, employers, a bunch of employers are self-insuring, so they're basically paying people.

28:18they're paying Cigna and Atena and United to just administer stuff as opposed to like providing any kind of real insurance. Exactly right. So that's happening. These companies are also big enough that they're spending tons of money that's keeping Cigna and Atena. And they're overpaying for everything. They're overpaying and they don't know how much they're paying because there's no transparency. And they don't think they're overpaying because they have consultants who told them they got a great deal. So you're saying if they fire those consultants and actually like did the work, the hard work probably of getting that information from the insurers, then they would look at it and they would then fire the insurers and go directly.

28:54So this is a way to basically bully the insurers out of business. I wouldn't say bully it, just put them out of business. In a legal nice way. Yeah, no, I mean just - Put them out of business. Complete them out of business. Give them, eliminate the reason why big companies to start do business with them. And then those same insurance companies create the Medicare Advantage plans. When that happens, won't they just screw the small businesses, that's what they will do. No, because hopefully we'll teach them how to direct contract. And that's why we're publishing all of our contracts, so the small businesses can do just what I do with Michael.

29:27Where are you publishing them? We'll publish it on a website that, as of now, is called costpluswellness.com. Oh, okay. But they're not up yet because we're still finalizing a bunch of them. So is insurance a good business for the people in it? I mean, you have to know it. Yeah, you've got to know it. Yeah, obviously people are still in it, so they think there is. Warren Buffett's in it, so I'm sure he thinks it is. It's generally pretty good. When you look at, you know, it's also the most, I guess, hated business in a lot of ways. It is now. Yeah, it is now for health care insurance. Yeah, because I think everyone's had a personal experience.

29:57Everyone. Did you have a personal experience with like dealing with your parents' health care or anything like that? No, no, no, no. I mean, well, that's not true, but it didn't lead to starting it. That didn't lead to it. So my mom had lung cancer and died three years ago next month. We got her to the hospital, and you have lung cancer mom, and she already kind of thought she did. And she needed a PET scan. And so she had been in the hospital for a few days. And I'm at the hospital. Doctor says she needs a PET scan. And I'm like, well, we're here at the hospital. Let's just get her the PET scan.

30:33No. She has to check out of the hospital, go home for three days at least, and then come back. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Is there a requirement for the insurance approval? Either insurance approval and Medicare approval and all this gamesmanship that's being played. And then you took out your credit card. No. I said, fuck you. We're leaving. Because I couldn't get it. I tried to get another. I called. And I'm thinking, OK, hey, I'll mark you. No. They said three days. This is the hospital right where I grew up. Literally, I used to play baseball in the back. St. Clair Hospital. I used to play baseball in the back.

31:10Yeah, name them and shame them. Yeah, name them and shame them, right? And I'm like Are you fucking kidding me? This is insane And if I can't get it changed You know other people are suffering far, far, far worse But it's not necessarily just the insurance companies It's the fact that the interests of the patient The people who provide the care And the way it's paid for Do not align Not even a little bit No, it's totally like principal agent Right, right, right So everybody's trying to do their own thing To try to maximize and it conflicts. And when you do that in an industry that's opaque, like healthcare and pharmaceuticals, everybody loses except for the people with the most power.

31:51You're absolutely right. And the thing I've noticed about the healthcare system is there's another resource, which isn't just money. It's not insurance or coverage. It's advocacy. Like, you know, when you see people in the hospital have no one there with them. Right, they have no agency. They have a million Americans with no next of kin. Yeah. You have to be on top of it when you have a parent or someone you love in the hospital. And there's patient management programs and stuff that they do. But, and look, hospitals want to do the right thing. You know, you've got hospitals that are just trying to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

32:18Yeah. And that's what kind of distorts a lot of things. Isn't that the capitalism? Well, yeah, but it's, oh, for sure. But then socialism doesn't change that. I'm not saying go to socialism. No, but even, but let's look at that though, right? So if we're in a socialistic society and you run a hospital and you get paid, you don't get paid the same as somebody, you know, mopping the floors. No. You're going to get paid more because you need more expertise. And the bigger the hospital you run, the more you're going to get paid. Even in the most communistic or socialistic society, there is still self-interest involved.

32:54Yeah, and there's corruption. And there's corruption and all that stuff. I'm not advocating for that. No, and I get that, right? But the point is there's no absolute, you know, like they say, what is it? Capitalism isn't the best system, but find me one that's better. Look, there's people, wealthy people with more money than me that are like, they just want more. Yeah. How much money do you motherfucking need? How is it going to change your life at all? How is it going to change your kid's life at all? Their kid's life. Their kid's their kid's. You've got enough money for multiple generations, presuming you don't have a moron in your family.

33:28And how much more money— Hey, morons can make it big too. Right? Yeah, we know. But how much do you need? Yeah. And, you know, there's just going to be people like that always. How much money is too much money? It's not so much that it's too much. It's how much, it's what do you do when you get, how do you get where you got and what are you doing to try to get more? Yeah. Wherever you are. What's the optimal level? Like, what do you think? Like after a certain point, it doesn't matter anymore. I don't know. I mean, because if you want to buy a football team, it's going to be$10 billion, you know?

33:59And so. Yeah. Like most people need luck to get to the level I'm at. Yeah. Just like I was born at the right time so that I started an internet company when the internet stock market took off. If I would have been born five years earlier, five years later, who knows? A friend of mine, Pam Pan Wong, always says, if you don't believe in luck, you can't have compassion. And there's a certain amount of ethos here of the American dream and meritocracy of if you made it, then you deserve to have made it. If you don't make it, then you didn't deserve to make it. And I think that's something in the healthcare employment thing.

34:31It's like if you have a job, you deserve to be insured. If you don't have a job, you don't deserve to be insured. That's not cool. No. I mean, I'm a big believer life is half random. Yeah. You can control half of your life, but there's shit that's outside of your control. Yeah. There's nothing you can do about it. You know, it could be genetic. It could be any thousand. You walk across the street at the wrong time. Yeah. You know, shit can go wrong. Of course. People have shit fall on their head. A tree falls. Yeah, diagnosis, whatever. Whatever it may be, right? Life is half random. Yeah. And I just think to get to how much money is too much, it's not a gradual build.

35:08It's never a gradual build where, okay, today I made a few dollars more. Today I made a few dollars more. Oh my goodness, I can stop now. It's more step, step, step, step, step, giant leap for wallet kind. Right. Well, it's like that book that you bought, right? Like retire and live like a student. But maybe when you have a couple million dollars, you don't want to live like a student anymore. I just wanted my time, right? But to your point, you're right. You wanted freedom. Yeah, I wanted freedom. To me, that's what money buys more than anything. Yeah. That's what having a plane buys more than anything.

35:38I have more control of my time. There are certain types of money I have seen that actually becomes handcuffs on people. In one way. People become used to a certain way of living, and so they become trapped by that way of living. You have to keep on making more. If you're not willing to give something out, you're always going to be in that trap. Hang tight for a second. We'll be right back. Will being popular make me healthier? It turns out it's less about popularity than it is about having a social support system. I'm Naima Raza, the host of Smart Girl Dumb Questions, and this is the sponsored Dumb Question, brought to you by Noom.

36:10So 40 % of physicians say that health advocacy actually improves patient outcomes, which is why it's great to be in someone's corner or to have someone in your corner, whether it's to take notes, ask questions, or just encourage good health habits. And that's true of life's big healthcare moments, like when our parents are in the hospital and of life's smaller ones, which is why I love Noom, the behavioral change-based weight loss app that helps you set your goals. Noom is there checking in on me even when everybody else is sleeping. Calm down, Noom. It's 6 a.m. Sometimes the app even throws me a party.

36:39To set your weight loss goals, expand your health support system, and throw yourself a party, visit Noom because progress deserves to be celebrated. You can go to noom.com. That's N-O-O-M.com today. I think you said to me, was it like capitalism is broken? Show me a better system. What's the quote? I forget the exact quote, but yeah. Capitalism isn't the best system, but show me one that's better. So I think there's one that's better, which is the NBA. The NBA system, huh? Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely socialism. You would say that as the most fine owner in the NBA. Yeah, James Dolan talked about it all the time in our meetings.

37:12It is, right? So I was at the Times. I ran this story, Binya Applebaum. There was a story in the New York Times that was called, is it the NBA or is it socialism? A video. Have you seen this? But basically, like, the NBA has salary caps. What I really like, like, the worst team gets the best pick. The best team gets the worst pick. Like, the drafts, rounds. They have all these mechanisms to kind of keep it fair. Right. And I don't think anyone's looking at the NBA and saying, like, they're not playing their hearts out and they're not playing really hard. It seems like it is a capitalist system where it's like— Well, it's more to protect the owners from themselves.

37:46because if you look at baseball, baseball, you have teams that spend all the money, the Dodgers, the Mets now, the Yankees, and you have, I'm from Pittsburgh. Yeah. And every day I get an email from some fan in Pittsburgh saying, well, you buy the Pirates. See, I didn't even know what the team was. They don't spend the money. Yeah. And so there is a bifurcation. It's not, you know, there's not parity or even close to parity. And you can pay more in the NBA. You just have to get fined if you pay more, right? Well, yeah, there's luxury taxes and everything. Yeah. And there's restrictions. but that makes it work because it's not fair that fans in Milwaukee, as an example, or fans in Memphis don't have as good a chance.

38:24That's the way it is. It's really to create an equilibrium between different size markets. So isn't that good? An equilibrium? Yeah. Oh yeah, I don't complain about it. So someone else, who's Jim Gole? Dolan, he owns the Knicks. The Knicks. Oh, And I'm not saying he's complaining about it, but he makes the point that we are a socialist organization. So the NBA has managed to create this system. If you look at health care, and part of the reason it's screwed up that we haven't even talked about is the fact that all of these companies, these big companies, are putting in campaign donations for their congressmen and putting in money to lobby for the regulations that behoove them.

39:00Get rid of Citizens United. I'm all for it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The huge regulatory capture that's happening in the health care industry. And then you have this other system, which I think is better than capitalism. the NBA system where you have fair play, unfettered, real heart and passion and money flying around, a lot of money flying around, but some limitations to the system. And the billionaires that are there own the teams, but they do not own the system. So how can the U.S. government, this is like a total dumb question, or it's a genius question, I don't know, but how can the U.S. government learn from the NBA?

39:33Or how can systems learn from them? I mean, the other side of the NBA is very much exclusionary. Not everybody can get in. There's not an unlimited number of franchises. And part of the value proposition for how the NBA runs is increasing the value of the franchises. And so you couldn't, to have the government do that, okay, Pittsburgh, sorry, there's not enough here for us. Dallas, you're in. Pittsburgh, you don't have a franchise. Yeah, it's extreme federalism. Right, right. It's like opt-in. But at some point, the value of the system is the American economy. Yeah. And in that case, like the American economy grows.

40:09No, I would tell you the value of the system is the American people. I just had this conversation with a politician yesterday. You see our current president taking credit for everything. Yeah. Our last president, Bidenomics. Yeah. I did this. I did that. Fuck you. You didn't do shit. I'm not saying all his programs are bad, right? But it wasn't him implementing them and making them work. Of course. It's the people. It's the people who do it. Yeah. It's entrepreneurs who start. When I was going around campaigning for karma, one of the things I used to say all the time, because the Democrats can't sell worth shit.

40:37So I was the only one who could try, and I'm not even a Democrat. But you're a billboard. I'm a billboard, yes. And I would say that there are 33 million businesses in this country. And 99 % of them, give or take, are run by individuals who make$400 ,000 or less. That's who makes this country go. You know, 65 % of new jobs come from small businesses. innovation comes from those people. What makes our country different, and I would say this all the time, this would be my closing billboards, but I would say you can go to any country in the world and there's not the Chinese dream or the German dream.

41:21There's the American dream because this is the one country where everybody has that idea. Like you talked about earlier, getting that feeling in your stomach, going to Google to check it out. Everybody in this country has had that happened to them at some point. And there are 33 million people who have said, yes, I'm starting this business. And of those 33 million, it could be a 12, 50, or 100-year-old person. Those are the people, that's what's important. That's what makes this economy because we all have that opportunity. Now, it's not equal opportunity for everybody. Not everybody is put in that position to create those companies.

42:01But there is that opportunity there. I think, I mean, having grown up outside of the US, I see that. Like, I mean, you see more entrepreneurialism and you haven't seen like Apple or these trillion dollar companies come out of a lot of places that don't already have an immense natural resource in the form of, you know, oil or whatever. But you do, like, I do feel that entrepreneurial spirit in other places. I'm Pakistani, but in India, for example. Well, you got 1.4 billion people, shit's gonna happen. It's just going to happen. But then people feel this unfairness of, well, I'm supposed to be able to do that, and I haven't done that for whatever reason.

42:35I haven't done it, and therefore I'm supposed to have this shittier lot in life. That is part of what the system is telling us. Right. And I think it's not about that. What would you do? So I don't know. I want to make it more like the NBA, but you're saying it's too exclusive. Everyone has to shoot hoops to be able to play. But I do want to – I think that it's about leveling the playing field a little bit. How would you do that? Between the teams. I mean, part of it is like, I mean, trying to provide some services, like provide universal health care, not do student loan forgiveness, which I personally think is kind of dumb because I think a bunch of really bad universities - Well, it's because we give so much money, loan so much money, it's really easy for schools to raise the price.

43:16Exactly. As it turns out, the price of tuition has been coming down over the last 10 years because fewer and fewer people are going to college now. But the sticker price goes up and they do the same thing with like the PBMs. Yes, they take the rebates, right? You're exactly right. And then they charge you less. Cut it down. We gave you a deal. Such a deal. Yeah. But I think you make community colleges and state universities really, really good and incentivize people to go to them in a big way. But community college is free. You pick one public university per DMA, each market area. Yeah. Like one in the Dallas area.

43:45Exactly. And you negotiate. You give all the public universities a chance to compete. You say, we're going to pick one. And for the next 10 years, you're going to be free. But that way, everybody's got to compete with free. And it's still capitalistic, but it's low-run. Yeah. And I think part of it is also designing more around the individual than around the entity. Even you're talking about 33 million companies. Well, what about 330 million people? People. People, yeah. How do you think about - So the question is, when do you give up on people? That's the problem. The problem is kids are born into situations and we give up on them before they get started.

44:16Yeah. You don't pick your parents and you get the wrong parent. Yeah. And you're fucked. And how do you deal with that? And there is an answer. The question is, what is the answer and how do you do it in a way that can get passed? You know, when you look at money out of pocket from taxpayers, which should be the priority? You know, spending money on a kid the minute it's born and making sure that it's got care, it's got food, it's got education. And that, to me, should be a primary concern because I think that's a good investment. Yeah. We don't do that. No. We instead put a bunch of money into their health care at the end of their lives.

44:59At the end of their lives. Yeah. Or we just say, fuck it, you're on your own. Yeah. And I'm not talking about UBI. I mean, even though I'm not opposed to UBI for caregivers. Yeah. Universally sick income. Yeah. You know, for a parent. For anyone who's taking care of their parent. Parent or even the child. Yeah. Because it's a good investment. Like, the big question for me is, like, can billionaires save us? And I came in with some sense that, like, they can't. Or at least we shouldn't expect them to. No. But your system is, costplusdrugs.com is a way - It doesn't mean billionaires can't do good things.

45:29Yeah. But you're limiting yourself. Like you are self-regulating. You're saying, I'm not going to charge a 25 % markup or 35%. And you probably could have charged - Well, but that's selfish. You know, there's Anne Rand, who I'm a fan of, even though people, like the virtue of selfishness. I get immense joy from fucking up the healthcare system. Yeah. That's worth more to you than the incremental 15%. Right. Yeah. That's worth more to me than the money. It's just like, yeah, it's like winning the championship for the Mavs. How do you get people? How do you create incentives for people to create a company like yours versus a company that charges 25 %?

45:58There's plenty of people who do it. It's just they're not the billboard. That's the harder part. There are solutions there, but it always goes back to where are the incentives? We can talk about billionaires, but you also have to talk about politicians. I mean, the dumb shit that politicians do just to get reelected. elected. And the amount of money that we spend on political campaigns to get somebody elected or reelected, it's ridiculous. Especially when most people can't name their congressperson. No, Royce West. I don't know if he's mine anymore, but that state. But that's like capitalism in our politics too.

46:35How do you spend time in a system like healthcare and think capitalism is still like, laissez-faire capitalism is still the best way forward. So this gets to another question, right? So how do you approach solving problems? And I get on this on Blue Sky all the time with people, you know, burn it down, you know, socialize everything. Well, what problem are you solving? You know, because it's one thing to say, do this and this is the solution. It's a whole nother thing to go through the process and say, okay, I can get from where we are today to solving the problem. And you may hate billionaires trying to go, but that's why, that's how some of us think.

47:10Yeah. You know, how do you, it's not just what's the end goal, but it's what's the process to get to the end goal. And not all, like there's bad, good, whatever. Yeah. But I don't think politicians do that at all. They think, what am I going to do to get me reelected? And I might have the best interest of people at heart. It's aligned with me getting reelected. Versus like in your case, like you have good interest for the people, but you also have the bad, the interest in like fucking with the bad guys. Hell yes. Which is a really good motivator. Yeah. No, it's a great motivator. It's a great motivator in life.

47:41I also think like, okay, on the MBA point, like there's a way that they found a fine. Right. You paid a lot of fine. How much did you pay? I don't even know. Millions. Millions? Yeah. My God. Must be nice, Mark. It is nice. To see how to pay millions to yell at somebody. And by the way, I lost money in the MBA. Until I sold on a year-to-year basis, I made money out of 24 years I owned the team, two years maybe. Really? Yeah. My favorite of your finds was like you told somebody you couldn't work at like a - A Dairy Queen? A Dairy Queen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was right when I bought the team and I told the head of officials, I wouldn't hire them to run a Dairy Queen.

48:15They'd fine me half a million dollars. But then the guy who owned a Dairy Queen north of Dallas called me up and says, why don't you come and work at Dairy Queen for a day? Because he was insulted? No, because he saw an opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. So he called every media outlet in all of Dallas, Nashville, Katie Couric on the Today Show. And I'm in there trying to learn how to make a Dairy Queen cone. It's 917 to get the curl, 117. You still remember that? Yeah. And I'm getting there at 6 in the morning to learn how to make Dairy Queen cones and blizzards. Yeah. I mean, a mean blizzard, my cones were for shit.

48:53But there was literally, I got there at 7 in the morning, give or take, there was a line two miles long of people. If you Google Mark Cuban, Dairy Queen, look at the pictures, it is insane. There were helicopters. Really? Oh my God. But that's what I learned. You are a billboard. Well, that's why I learned how to be a billboard. That's why I learned it was going to be different. My life was going to be different. So when you saw Donald Trump at the McDonald's, did you know what looked like a Norman Rockwell painting? Yeah. He did. It was smart. It was a billboard. It was a billboard. He knows how to sell.

49:23Okay, here's a dumb question, but why can't we? I know you hate taxes on unrealized gains. You're happy to pay your taxes. You can't do it. Yeah, you can't do it. You think it's patriotic to pay your taxes. You pay your taxes in full. But you can't tax people on unrealized gains. Explain why. Because let's just say that you get an offer for your podcast. And the threshold was$100 million, right? Yeah. So let's just say you've just built this into the most amazing, amazing, amazing podcast. Keep going, Mark. Right? Yeah, I like this. And Joe Rogan begged to work for you, and you build it up. Theo Vaughn now works for you.

49:56You can come, Joe and Theo. Right. Come be curious. You can be smart girls, too. You get offered a billion dollars. So now it's worth a billion dollars. In stock or equity, whatever. In stock, right? Let's say you went public, and it's worth a billion dollars. I'm a paper billionaire-esque. You're a paper billionaire-esque. So nice, yeah. And so if all of a sudden there's a 40 % tax on unrealized gains, or even 20 % on unrealized gains. You've got$26 ,000 in the bank. Yeah. And you have a tax bill. Of$200 million. Yeah. See, people always say that, like, oh, if you make it so high, it'll become prohibitive.

50:29But the last time, like, Bill Gates did something really innovative. I've had two experiences with Bill Gates. Yeah. And actually, I admire all the things he's done for society and the world. When I sold broadcast.com right afterwards, I got asked to do a speech. And I wasn't going to do any more speeches because I sold and I was in the Mavs now. But Bill Gates was on before me. Yeah. And I gave the speech just so I could walk up there and say, I always wanted to have Bill Gates as my opening act. Bill Gates was your fluffer. I said it, not you. You don't have to say it. And anyway, so the first time though I experienced Bill Gates was I had my first company.

51:07I was at this show called Comdex, which was the world's largest computer show event and convention. and so I'm there, I'm 26 maybe and I'm thinking I'm living life, right? My company just started to build and I'm buying drinks. I'd met these girls and everything and a couple of really pretty girls and they told me they're going to the bathroom. I'm like, okay, and I'm waiting there with my drinks and everything. They don't come back. And then I see one of them and next day or whatever, oh, we ran into Bill Gates. He had a lot more money than you do. And so every time Bill Gates stole my girls for every man in a club saying, I'm richer than you.

51:47I'm richer than you. I'm rich. There's one that's richer than me. Yeah. And every man or woman in this case in the world sitting there because Oprah could be in the club. I don't care if you've got more money than me, more power to you. So Bill Gates, but the last like, you know, he made Microsoft when the tax rate was like, what, 70 percent? No, no, no. The rules were a lot different. But people made companies when there were when taxes were much higher. There were so many deductions. There were so many ways. Even when it was 90%, there were so many different deductions and exceptions that you could get that it was rare.

52:19Okay. There's no way to think about unrealized gains taxing. Unrealized gains. It just doesn't work. Because now, so when they were proposing all this, and actually it was never really proposed. It was part of the Joe Biden budget. Yeah. And you only use that to try to balance. And it was part of the Elizabeth Warren plan. Yeah, she wanted to. Um, but when they were going through all of this and trying to explain what they've didn't even address. So let's just say you make an investment and investment, you put in a hundred thousand dollars and you lose a hundred thousand dollars. Yeah. I love how rich I am in your imagination, Mark.

52:59Fucking great. So, okay. You put in$6 ,000 and it goes out of business. Unless you have $6 ,000 of capital gains in that year, you can only deduct three. Got it. $3 ,000. It doesn't matter if you invest$6 ,000. It doesn't matter if you invest a million dollars. It doesn't matter if you invest$200 million, a billion dollars. You can take$3 ,000 as a deduction if you don't have offsetting capital gains. Got it. And so, you know. Yeah, it's hard to tax. But then at the same time, like a lot of people, like how much do you pay yourself from your company? You pay or just off a dollar? Nothing, yeah.

53:38Or something, right? Like a lot of people pay themselves a dollar, make all their money in equity, and then, I mean, you saw that in the reporting. Then they take loans, borrow against that. Which is different. There must be some way to capture some value in this chain. There's an argument to be made that you treat that as income. Yeah. Treat those loans as income. Yeah, treat those loans as income. But you've always got to look. Like Shark Tank, when I sat down there and they were trying to tell me about, you know, we're going to increase the capital gains tax to 40%. Yeah. I sat down there. with the Harris people and I said hypothetical, not even hypothetical, specific examples in Shark Tank.

54:13Over the course of a season, I might invest in 18 companies. And of those companies, typically it's one that is a winner. One out of 18 is a pretty good ratio for adding kind of investor. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, of 18 and 10 of them just are, you know, doggy paddling, right? They're just holding on. and then 10 and 14. So seven companies go belly up. Yeah. The one that's going to make me all the money isn't going to pay me the same time the companies go belly up. Yeah. It's going to be 10 years later. It's going to be 15 years later. It may be forever before I get any cash back. So I've lost all that money that I've put in to create 18 companies and you're not considering that whatsoever.

55:00So why am I going to invest in as many companies, particularly small companies, particularly people of color because they need more support. Women too. Women actually are better entrepreneurs, but they need more support because they may not have all the background, which means I'm taking a greater risk. And so you're not recognizing the risk. You're only trying to hit me on the reward. Yeah. Okay. What about salary caps and salary minimums for CEOs? Okay. So that's a different question. I actually - You like that? I'm not opposed to it. And so I wrote a blog post way back when where basically, so when you see all these salaries for CEOs, 25, 50, you know,$100 million, $15 million, most of that's in stock.

55:42And so there's still risk associated with that. Yeah. And, and, you know, cause stock market, you could be, you know, have a bunch of your stock in Nvidia and yesterday it was down 16%. And so now if you got your stock at the wrong time, now you're shit out of luck, right? You don't know if it's coming back at all or like from, What was it? From 2000, the NASDAQ stock index was at 5 ,000, and it took until five years ago before it got back to that level. So if all your stock, now they'll reprice and play games, but still you have a chance of losing. But what I've said was make companies pay in cash and then give your CEOs enough cash to go out and buy options and go buy whatever you want.

56:25And then whenever you give stock to employees, whatever the ratio to salary that you do for the CEO, you have to do for every full-time employee. See, and that's great because then you could tax them too. Well, on the cash. On the cash. And they'll still, you know, they'll buy long-term options. They can leaps, right? And those will appreciate. And the government won't get any of that while that appreciates. But there's risk that it doesn't appreciate. And the government has to spend the money better. You think they're going to do that with Doge? Are you actually hopeful about it? I don't think Elon's necessarily the right person to do it, but I think it's the right concept for sure.

57:01Yeah. So, I mean, but he's another example of a billionaire who's trying to save us by taking us to Mars. Right. What do you think of that? What's nothing wrong with it? Yeah. There's something about like those kinds of missions that require that kind of what we're talking about in healthcare, like the kind of capital and scale. Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm guessing that's why I want. Well, Elon's a different, you know, particularly. And it's not even so much the money as the billboard. Yeah. The bigger the billboard, the more the power. The more the power, the more intoxicating. The more intoxicating, the more you don't want to lose it.

57:28And the more it changes who you are. The same happens with politicians. Same happens with CEOs. How can we keep billionaires good? Do you have like WhatsApp groups, like good billionaire, WhatsApp, bad billionaire? I am in this one, but they're not all billionaires. Who's in your WhatsApp group? It's a signal group, yeah. It's a signal group. I can't tell you who's in it. You can't tell me who's in it? No, I have to cut off your tongue. Okay. That's a good pilot. I like it. But there is groups. and this is a good billionaires group? I was on a Simpsons episode where it was like the billionaire heritage and some guy's net worth went from, you know,$1 billion in a little bit to$999 million and I had to kick him out.

58:05What was your line? The only line I remember from it, it was season eight, is they made me say, I'm out of my mind. It was the coolest thing ever, right? They put me in this audio sound box. Yeah. And, you know, with the microphone and everything. And there was this thing because part of it was related to the Mavs and the Mavs, and Mr. Smithers wanted to buy a sports team. And he was like, who's that Mark Cuban guy, right? And they just showed me jumping from the top of the arena, screaming, I'm out of my mind, I'm out of my mind. But the best part was in this little sound booth, I would scream it, and they'd be like, no, it's got to be louder.

58:41Oh, the director. Yeah, he's in my ear going, it's got to be louder. So when you see me on The Simpsons season eight. I would say. Was that more rewarding screen appearance for you than Sharknado? No, Sharknado was a blast. Are you going to, what are they on? Like the ninth or 10th Sharknado? Or is it, they keep making it, right? I don't think they, I think they stopped. They stopped? Yeah. Because you didn't get a call back? Yeah. You would have gotten a call back, you think, if they had more? No, they did ask me to do another one. Really? And I wouldn't do it. Yeah. Okay. I wouldn't do it. But it was so much fun.

59:11So much fun. Really? I can't even begin to describe how much fun shooting that was. because I got to shoot fake guns. I got to shoot at sharks. You know, I got to run and slide and, you know, be the president and, like, have the sharks coming at the White House, shooting these rifles at the fake sharks going, not my house. And then the better part was that when I, because I made a deal, I said I can't get eaten no matter what. I can be bitten but not eaten. Because you wanted to be in a sequel? I wanted to be in a sequel. I wanted to survive. That was your rider? Oh, yeah, basically. but the funniest part was I had like Lou Ferrigno the guy who played the Hulk back in the day right Rick Fox 6 '8 basketball player all these other people they were getting killed they're like the security guards and everything and they're getting eaten by sharks that aren't there yet so they had to make them lay on the ground and do all these convulsions and I'm watching these enormous guys you know just convulsing it was great and then there's this other scene where the sharks are coming through and we're running oh my god It was so much fun.

1:00:17Why aren't you doing more acting? You loved it. Oh, I love doing the acting. So whenever I get asked, like I've got a movie coming up with Mark Wahlberg where all I do is get shot and killed by Mark Wahlberg. Do you get to at least play yourself in the cadaver? Well, no, yeah. And then the guy, the line is, you just shot Mark Cuban. That's a lot. Now, whether or not it makes it in the movie, I don't know, but I love that stuff. Oh, I don't want you to be left on the cutting room floor. Oh, but it's funny because they put all the squibs in me and one time I had to do the head back and the other time the head down.

1:00:49It's cool. I love that stuff. I think that's why you're one of the billionaires that people like. You just have fun. Yeah. How can I not? I'm the luckiest motherfucker on the planet. Not everything goes right, but oh my God. I don't want to be 95 years old and say, why didn't I do the podcast? Why didn't I do this? Why didn't I do that? What the fuck? you know here's my attitude on all that like if you're poor and you still have a good attitude and you're you know you enjoy your family you enjoy your friends and you find something positive then when you're rich yeah oh shit you're gonna love every minute of it if you're one of the people that is just always you know bad at it you know negative on everything yeah and just can't find anything positive ever yeah I don't care how much money you get you're gonna have you're gonna be that same person you are who you are Was it hard for you to sell the Mavs because you were having so much fun?

1:01:44Or did you think like even with 27, it's 27 % that you own now? Yeah. No, it was hard. But I just felt like, you know, as much as there was the positive of owning a sports team and this multimedia day and age and social media day and age, the hate is through the roof. Now, maybe, you know, it's funny. Like if they lose or if you don't bring you a player, everything. Everything. But it's funny. If Blue Sky would have been around because it's not nearly the same, I might still. If that liberal fun fest over there. And it's not as much, it's a little bit less liberal every day, but unfortunately.

1:02:17It's good for idea exchange. You want balance and different ideas. You want to hear people that disagree with you. Exactly. But yeah, but it's because of the hateful attitudes a lot in sports. I don't want my kids to be positioned in that. And there were other little things. And in order to compete in that socialistic environment, you had to generate revenue. I was losing money. And the way to do that was real estate. That's what all the teams were doing. I suck at real estate. I don't want to say, okay, let me go borrow money and put in a billion dollars and build a stadium. Shit, I don't know how to do.

1:02:55And everyone said, well, just hire somebody. What if you hire the wrong person and you get all these cost overruns and yada yada? I'm sure you can hire someone to hire someone. Yeah, but you know what I'm saying. Yeah, but I get what I'm saying. You don't want to be in that business. Right, because I talked to you about going down the rabbit hole, right? And, you know, having cost plus over here versus, okay, I can still go to the games. Yeah. And, you know, it's just instead of losing money every year, now I put money in my pocket. Well, and you sold it to the Adelsons. Yeah. Who are like completely opposed to you politically, I think.

1:03:25I wouldn't say opposed, but they support. You're independent. You're not a Democrat. I'm not a Democrat. Yeah. Back to the Democratic candidate. And so they're fans of Trump's because of his support of Israel. That's it. Okay. And that's fine. Yeah. And that's not hard for you? What do you think it is about sports that transcends politics that we can learn from? I think there used to be, back when I was in broadcast.com and owning theaters and everything, I used to talk about that the definition of TV is the best alternative to boredom. because we need diversions. And sports is one of those best alternative to boredom.

1:04:05Like we talked before, being in that arena, where else can you go and just scream at the top of your lungs? Where else are you going to hug and high-five somebody that if you knew what they were about, you wouldn't even talk to them? We need more of that shit. We do need more of it. And when the United States is an underdog in the Olympics, the country comes together. Oh, yeah, like this summer. Yeah. Yeah, it was all Ray Gunn and the U.S. sports teams. Right, the Ray Gunn, yeah, the U.S. sports teams, right? Yeah. And the two together. But that's special. Yeah. But it also takes a lot of emotional commitment.

1:04:42Yeah. Because when you're running it for all Mavs fans everywhere, that's an emotional drain. I mean, if you ever saw me at games, now it's a lot less stress for me because it's not all my decisions. Yeah. It's not all my money. There's not so much at stake. The able men, my friends who I'm staying with here, they told me they saw you before a game and you were so friendly in chat because I guess they were near you or something. You were so friendly. And then the Mavs lost. And at the end, you were just like fucking angry. I couldn't wait to get out of there. Like no recognition. Nothing. I just put my head down because I don't want to say something I'll regret.

1:05:21Yeah. Yeah. But we do need more of that. Okay. Every interview with you ends being asked if you want to be in politics. You've already said no. No. Okay. There's two sides. I don't want to be president. Yeah. I think I can have influence the billboard. Yeah. And because I don't have a team, I think I can just do what I believe is right. So the billboard swings both ways? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You were a fluffer. I swing both ways. Yes. That's true. Who would make a better candidate than you in 2028? I've been asked that and I have no idea. I don't pay that close attention to, but But I just think if somebody can demonstrate leadership through accomplishment, not with the financial scoreboard necessarily, but if you go and you change something, if you come up with an idea and you implement it and show people that you can lead and solve problems, because that's what we don't have.

1:06:13You know, we had Joe Biden, you know, I like what happened with the CHIPS Act. There's a lot of things. His heart was in the right place. But he couldn't sell dollar bills for 50 cents. And if you can't do that, then it's hard to let people know what's happening. It's hard to be a leader. You have to be able to align. Selling, when I say selling, it doesn't mean, you know, convincing people to do something they otherwise wouldn't do. It's about, you know, showing people you're going to help them Right Then helping them and then aligning your interests Hey, work with me because all of our interests are aligned for these reasons Yeah Having somebody who can demonstrate that, that's the type of person we need Okay, two questions out of that One, I read something, I think it was in New York Mag the other day I actually didn't read the piece, just a headline It said Kamala Harris has not ruled out a run in 2028 Fine What do you think?

1:07:02You know, she did reasonably well considering she only had four months I think I think she Will learn the lesson that Political handlers are your worst enemies Middlemen It's always the middlemen Chop out the middlemen Okay interesting Yeah because I think You know I like her She's a good person She's straightforward She's smart But she's not a salesperson Yeah And that's going to be the challenge Comes back to the MBA for me Which is fair fight Like, I'd like to see a fair fight. I was like one of the people in fall of 2023 who thought Biden, you know, was old and had said he was going to, had indicated he was going to be a one-term president.

1:07:45And then changed his mind. Yeah. And then the coronation. So I'm like, I'm, I'm of the mind that like, let's not even talk about 2028. Let's see some names. No, you know what? Like, let's have a beauty contest, please. So, you know, I'm of the orientation that you don't talk about names, you talk about solutions. Yeah. Billionaires are coming forth a lot in electoral politics. I mean, they always have to some extent. Like Bloomberg. I think there are a lot of people in New York City where I live where people are nostalgic for Bloomberg. The straws there in San Francisco who's just come in. Obviously, Donald Trump inherited.

1:08:17I don't know. Is he? I don't know. I don't know the math. I don't know the math. But I believe advertised as such. So do you think that's a good thing, billionaires running for office? I think it's irrelevant. You think it's irrelevant. Do you think billionaires get a bad rap? Yes. You don't know me. Yeah. You know, if I judge somebody by their bank account, it goes both ways. If it's wrong to judge somebody because, you know, they're poor, it's just as wrong to judge them in my mind because they're wealthy. Nobody was saying to me, Mark, you're sleeping on the floor. You have zero money. Literally, you know, I've told the story before.

1:08:50I was 27 years old and went to the ATM and I had zero, zero, zero at that moment because I'd put all my money into my business and zero in my bank account. Yeah. And nobody was saying, Mark, your opinion matters more now. Understand and respect the person. Yeah. Unless someone gives you a reason not to respect them, the default should be to respect them, whether they're immigrants, legal, illegal, business people, junkies. I don't care. Yeah. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt until you show me otherwise. It's not like an exclusive. Like you're like, you can hate some billionaires, but just don't hate billionaires as a class.

1:09:30They're not all the same and don't hate them on the basis of one. We're not all the same. Yeah, just look to see who they are. Yeah. Wouldn't you treat anybody else that way? Yeah. And so, you know, when someone says each or each, I don't care. You know, when someone says, you know, every billionaire is a political failure, okay, I understand it. Yeah. And I can understand that sentiment. But that's like hate the game, don't hate the player. Yeah, it just is what it is, right? Is that what you say? Hate the player? Yeah, hate the player, hate the game, not the player. So in the midst of Luigi News, Kathy Hochul, governor of New York, had a meeting, and there was some reporting around this from CNN, that New York was, quote, considering setting up a hotline for CEOs so they can call to report security concerns or threats.

1:10:07And it was reported the same week as, like, a woman was lit on fire in the MTA. And you can imagine this, you know, made people angry. Right. Why do they get special? Yeah. What do you think about that? Like, do you think we need protection? Like, do we live in an era right now where people are so mad at wealth that the wealthy need protection? No, I mean, I have security. I can afford my own security. You got henchmen? I got henchmen. How many? 76 of them. Really? I was well henched. Yeah, and it's more for my kids than anything else, you know, and family. So, yeah. Yeah. And then billionaires, we care about what they think about everything.

1:10:37We ask them for their opinion. Like, I'm here, I'm asking you for your opinion. Right. What do you think of that? Is that kind of insane? Yes. Right? Yes. But at the same time, you know, we listen to actors, we listen to athletes. Yeah. And it goes back to what Charles Barkley said a long time ago. I am not a role model. Yeah. You know, but we live in a content society where everybody's got to fill up as much content. Every podcast needs a guest. Oh, yeah. Like here, I'm like, I'm going to cut two podcasts out of this shit. Okay. Right. We keep on talking, right? Mark back on. You know, why do we listen to billionaires?

1:11:06Because every podcast needs a guest. Yeah, that's true. Okay. Look at yourself. I mean, now I feel like I have to get billionaires for all the other episodes. And that's not going to work for like, what do you do if you see a bear? But you get my point, right? ask a billionaire. No billionaire is going to know what to do. I fucking wouldn't know what to do. It depends on the color of the bear. Does anyone know this? Let me just say you have anything. So every episode on the show, not every episode is going to have a billionaire, but every episode in the show is going to end with like, what is the guest dumb about?

1:11:38What's a dumb question you have that you don't know the answer to? Oh my God. There's unlimited number. What's a question I have that I don't know the answer to? Yeah. What is Mark Cuban dumb about? Why do people chew with their mouths open? Just show us what it would look like chewing with your mouth. No. That is my ultimate pet peeve. Yeah. Why are some people afraid of heights and others are not? What is it? Yeah. You know, mission accepted, Mark. I'm going to find these answers for you. I'm going to find the answers to these questions. I don't know why, but I do know from a thing I got from - Wait, are you going to tell me you know about the thing you're dumb about?

1:12:15No, no, no, no. Okay, got it. I can have one smidgen of information, right? I can have a data point. Tell me, tell me. I have a data point. Okay, what's your data point? Data point is that 17 % of people are annoyed by people eating with their mouths open. I am in the super 17%. Oh my God. I'm like, that's like a no second date situation for me. One of my best friends, I will not go out to dinner with them. I'll go drinking. I'll do whatever. So you want to know why do some people chew with their mouth open? Yeah, why is there? Like, is there like a natural, maybe there's like a biological reality.

1:12:45I don't know, right? I know why people don't like it like us. Yeah. Because it's genetic. Yeah. But I don't know why they do it. Yeah. Why would you do this knowing that 17 % of the population is just annoyed as fuck? Wow. I feel like the next business you're going to start is like mouthclothes.com. Chew with your mouthclothes.com. No, but I did invest in a shark tank company for hiccups. Oh, really? Called Hickaway. Hickaway. It is the coolest thing ever. It's working? Oh, my God, yeah. Or start slapping someone if they hiccup? Oh, unless you enjoy the slapping part, right? I kind of enjoy the slapping part.

1:13:18No doubt about that. None. questions we're going to find out for you the mouth open thing right and number two heights that's a really good that is question has a good question why are you afraid of heights yeah i have no idea i found out when i was five years old oh i'm terrified really oh my god my dad told me the story he took me to my first baseball game and the only tickets we could afford were at the very top and he said by the time i got to the second ramp yeah we're up in the air i started shaking screaming and crying. Oh, you poor little five-year-old non-billionaire Mark Cuban. And it didn't change for the rest of my life.

1:13:52Still? Oh my God. So in Pittsburgh, right? This is all in Pittsburgh. To go to a Pittsburgh Pirates game, you have to walk across a bridge. And it's one of those greats on the sidewalks where you can see down. Literally, my friends would laugh their asses off at me. I would like squeeze the rails to be able to like one leg at a time walk across. And then like roller coasters, No. But private planes, you're fine. Yeah, because it feels stable. Any plane, like when I flew for the very first time, I was really scared that I was going to have a problem. And so, yeah. All right. We're going to find out the answers.

1:14:26Thank you so much, Mark. It was fun. You're so generous. It was fun, yeah. You're good. You have good first guest energy. So Mark Cuban is a pretty good billboard as advertised, and I think a lot of fun. And my mind was pretty blown by his vision for health care. And at the same time, I left with these kind of two lingering thoughts, one of which is, why is our healthcare tied to our employment? It still doesn't make sense to me. And just as someone who's an independent creative, like, makes me think of all the people who are shackled to jobs that they don't want because of health insurance, or all the people who don't have health insurance because they're not employed, but they're trying to do something really productive and good for society.

1:15:02And two, while I think this idea of employers being the ones that will get us to a single-payer system or better healthcare is like a fine and noble vision, I also wonder, like, why government doesn't have that negotiating power. And if the very system of capitalism is the reason why our government is so neutered and so unable to do things, because ultimately the people we voted into office are owned by the donors and the billionaires and the capitalists who, you know, push money into the system. That's why I'm still really interested in this NBA model. Like, here's some real competition, some stellar play, and they're able to keep billionaires in line and in check and level the playing field and have a lot more fairness.

1:15:39Maybe I need to have Adam Silver, the NBA commissioner, on to talk to me about that. Maybe we can learn from him about keeping billionaires in check. Maybe he'll run for president. Maybe he knows what to do if he sees a bear. Thanks for listening to this episode of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. By the way, if you have smart ideas on dumb questions, I want to know them. So put them in the comments below. Leave us a review if you like the show. Hit subscribe or follow wherever you get your content. Or drop me an email. I'm naima raza101 at gmail.com. Thanks for listening to this episode of Smart Girl Dumb Questions.

1:16:09I want to give a huge thanks to Jesse Creel, Maya Mark's mutual friend who made this episode happen, as well as to my friend Teresa Chow, who named the show. A very special thanks also to my brand partners like Noom who made it possible for me to create a podcast that Mark Cuban thinks is going to make me as rich as him. Unlikely.

1:16:39Thank you.

1:17:11you

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