Charli XCX - Camera

0:00Charli XCX:You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Hirwe. Thanks to Gusto for supporting Song Exploder. Here at the Song Exploder offices, aka what used to be the garage at my house, we don't have an HR department or anyone running payroll or benefits or onboarding. Unfortunately, it's part of my job to figure all those things out. And all that admin takes up a lot of time that I know I would rather be spending on actually making the show. That's where Gusto comes in. It's online payroll and benefits software that's built for small businesses.

0:39Charli XCX:It's all-in-one, remote-friendly, and incredibly easy to use. So you can pay, hire, onboard, and support your team from anywhere. They've got options for every business size, whether you're as small as Song Exploder or much, much bigger. And they can work with nearly every budget. Try Gusto today at gusto.com slash songexploder and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com slash songexploder. One more time, it's gusto.com slash songexploder. Song Exploder is sponsored by TaskRabbit. For the last few months, I've been meaning to put up this framed Richard Misrak photo that I love, but I wanted to hang it above my bed, which meant it really needed to be done right because I don't want it to fall off and land on me while I'm sleeping.

1:30Charli XCX:So I've been putting it off. But then instead, I found a tasker on TaskRabbit who specializes in hanging artwork and TVs in homes. And he came over the next day with a laser level and he hung the picture with precision and care. And then I felt so much better than if I had tried to do it myself. And really, who knows when I would have done it myself. When life happens, your to-do list grows. So get ahead of it now and get$15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or on the TaskRabbit app using promo code SongExploder. Taskers book up fast, especially for same-day tasks. So book Trusted Home Help today.

2:07Charli XCX:That's$15 off your first task using promo code SongExploder with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode contains explicit language. Charlie XCX is a Grammy-winning artist who's been making music since she was a teenager. In July 2026, she released her eighth album, Music, Fashion, Film. It debuted at number one on the UK charts. Her fourth album in a row to hit number one there. In addition to her music career, for the last few years, she's been acting in films. And for this episode, we talked about how those experiences inspired her song, Camera, and how she and producer Finn Keen figured out how to translate that into music.

3:06Charli XCX:Could you introduce yourself?

3:08Finn Keane:Yeah. My name is Charlie XCX. Prior to this song, I was kind of going through this thing of, I don't really want to make music for a while not in a dramatic way but you know I'd been making a lot of stuff I made Brat then I made this whole kind of remix album and I was playing a lot of shows I was DJing a lot I was you know doing all the stuff and I think I wanted to not make music again for a while because I wasn't sure that I had anything to say and actually I really wanted to explore film which has been sort of a long-term passion of mine and over the past three four years I've actually been able to really act on that passion I made a film called Erupsia in 2024 and prior to that I'd been on set with Greg Araki for like one day and a couple of other films for one day and I had spent earlier in the year making a film the film was called The Moment and we shot it in five weeks you know really condensed really quick but in that five weeks we really kind of bonded as a cast and crew and it felt really creatively stimulating and rich that lack of control that sometimes you get when you walk on set as an actor on somebody else's film is actually for me at least quite freeing you know like to go on perform like you fuck up you don't do a good take but whatever it makes you feel alive there's something very very vulnerable about that i've spent my life you know since i was 14 really making music and being very much in control of my own destiny in terms of every single like output about me and my artist project and the beginnings of this song was kind of me mourning that feeling and thinking about that feeling of being surrounded by these incredible people whilst shooting a film and honestly the feeling that I got from being on camera in that kind of a way in an acting capacity rather than being on camera as a musician in a music video for instance so I was kind of like I really want a creative pause from music and then out of nowhere inspiration struck because thinking about those feelings was kind of the initial seed of inspiration for this song.

6:10Finn Keane:It started in the summer of 2025. My friend Finn Keen is a long-term collaborator of mine now, but particularly on this new album, you know, I made it sort of exclusively with him and A.G. Cook.

6:28Charli XCX:You've worked with a lot of different producers. What is it that makes you want to keep going back to the two of them specifically you know the reason i go back

6:37Finn Keane:to them is because there's no rules you know i think my biggest gripe with the pop music landscape and the songwriting landscape which i will say has kind of like become a little more scarce like this mentality that i'm about to discuss but i definitely remember in like 2015 in LA it was very much this sort of like old school kind of traditional mentality when it came to writing particularly pop songs a lot of kind of rules of like oh well to make the song technically good you have to hit the highest note in the chorus you can't repeat any of the notes in the verse in the chorus all this bullshit like you know I don't know like who came out with these fucking rules this is some bullshit like I don't know so we've never really been interested in that and don't get me wrong like I really appreciate a well-written pop song I really appreciate a more traditional sounding pop song in terms of like melodic structure like don't get me wrong I'm into it but this idea of oh no that's wrong is something that I would come up against actually quite a lot especially when I was in LA in that time hopping around and like kind of exploring different producers people would be like oh well that's not right that's not good like that melody isn't good I'd be like well why do you know that why do you get to say that and I don't and I'm the artist like I'm never working with you again like do you know what I mean like it's just to me a good melody is all about conviction that's it it doesn't matter if that melody is on the same note if it's performed in a truly honest way that's it I just have to believe you to me that's what makes a good song if I believe you inside and out not if it's following some like ABA formula or whatever you know it's like there are a hundred songs that can be written like that but if there's no conviction behind it then it doesn't matter and so finn and ag we all kind of believe it just has to feel honest and real and i think that's why i go back to them you know because it's freeing because there are no boundaries or rules within the songwriting we're able to sort of explore all of these different territories without feeling like we're doing anything wrong.

9:17Finn Keane:When Finn and I made the Wuthering Heights album together, we were working with strings a lot for the first time. We'd been very inspired by John Cale.

9:25Charli XCX:John Cale from The Velvet Underground.

9:27Finn Keane:Yeah, we were really thinking about his quote.

9:29Charli XCX:There was always a standard that was kind of set for how to be elegant and how to be brutal.

9:36Finn Keane:Elegant and brutal, which is the two words that he used to describe the criterion for whenever he was making a Velvets record. We were kind of exploring that with Wuthering Heights, you know, whenever we were recording strings, we were thinking the strings have to be elegant and brutal. So there weren't these kind of like conventional, smooth, like gorgeous, luscious strings. They were a little scratchy, a little aggressive. And I think that record and working with strings in that way sort of went on to inspire me to be like, OK, so I wanted to use a lot more guitars on this record. Maybe we should explore our version of guitars because I'd never really done that before.

10:21Finn Keane:My previous records don't feature a lot of guitar. And so that was kind of a jump-off point. Finn played some chords, strumming them normally on the guitar.

10:36Finn Keane:with, you know, very sort of simple, like, kick snare rhythm.

10:47Finn Keane:And that's another thing I love about working with Finn. We kind of, like, just throw a track out real quick because we don't want to, like, suck time out from working together. We don't want to spend ages perfecting the sound of a snare drum only to be like, oh, actually, I don't have an idea over this or whatever. I then sang a kind of scratch melody with not many lyrics, just kind of like vague vowel sounds type thing. And we kind of sat with it for a minute. And then we were like, OK, this is cool, but there's something a little smooth about the way the guitar is played. I kind of knew we needed to make the production feel a lot more raw and direct and rough because that would really kind of reflect this very exposing feeling of being on set as an actor and it being kind of humiliating.

11:55Finn Keane:And so I kind of wanted the guitar to feel less perfect and a bit more reflective of that feeling that I was trying to capture. And so we decided to cut the chord at like a very awkward point.

12:20Finn Keane:which then kind of made the guitar very very chopped in this sort of intense and kind of like rough way

12:33Finn Keane:it went from being something quite pretty to something a lot more jarring and distinct

12:42Finn Keane:it feels very angular to me and that is also very much the feeling that I have on set it's like a little uncomfortable or something in a way that I like

13:16Finn Keane:That became like a real identity to the song that then went on to kind of help us figure out not only other production elements, but the kind of lyrical journey of the song.

13:40Finn Keane:There's this part where I say, am I being fucking stupid if I try and be a girl on the screen when I'm turning? And I was like, I cannot say 33. That would be so lame. If screen rhymed with three, that would be like just the worst decision ever. And luckily I am turning 34. So it made sense for it to be that.

14:00Charli XCX:But at the time it was 2025. So you were turning 33.

14:04Finn Keane:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I had the foresight to know that this record would come out that year. Thank God. My gosh.

14:10Charli XCX:What is it about rhyming that you felt so strongly against?

14:14Finn Keane:Well, I think because this song is very much me talking to myself about something quite embarrassing, about wanting to act and wanting to feel free and danger when I do so. and also knowing that some people will always say that I suck or can't do it and no matter who you are or what you're doing if you decide oh you know what I'm a little older and I want to like embark on this new creative journey or not even a creative journey it's like quite vulnerable to sort of put yourself out there in a world which is so hell-bent on scrutinizing absolutely everything and everyone and so I think because it is that embarrassing inner monologue it didn't feel right to have rhyme because at least for me rhyme requires a bit of premeditation and you know this song more so than any we really wanted to keep that stream of consciousness kind of a vibe.

15:27Finn Keane:So to have rhyme in this song would have maybe made it feel like a thought I was going back to rather than a spontaneous one.

15:36Charli XCX:Yeah, that's brilliant.

15:38Finn Keane:You know?

15:39Charli XCX:Yeah, it's a really great answer. More with Charlie XCX after this.

15:50Charli XCX:This episode is brought to you by Lisa. I just upgraded my whole sleep situation by getting a Lisa mattress. I started by taking the Lisa sleep quiz on their website. Every Lisa mattress is designed with specific sleep positions and feel preferences in mind. So you can find the one that's exactly right for you. And for me, it was the natural hybrid mattress. It's made with natural latex and breathable organic cotton, which also helps with temperature regulation. So the quiz ended up being spot on, but because sometimes you'd need to actually sleep on a bed for a while to know if it's right for you, they give you 120 night sleep trial.

16:25Charli XCX:Go to lisa.com for 25 % off select mattresses. Plus get an extra$50 off with the promo code SongExploder exclusive for SongExploder listeners. That's l-e-e-s-a.com with the promo code SongExploder for 25 % off select mattresses plus an extra$50 off. And when you use the SongExploder code, you're supporting the show. Thanks so much to Built for supporting Song Exploder. I have to admit, I get very excited about the whole gamification of earning points through credit card purchases and then using those points to buy things that I would have bought anyway. It always feels to me like I won some secret prize.

17:07Charli XCX:So it's very cool to learn that you can also earn Built points just by paying your rent or your mortgage. So it becomes even more automatic because you're going to make those payments anyway, but now they can actually earn rewards for you. You set it up by downloading the Built app, then linking any credit or debit card to the app, and the Built points that you earn can be used towards flights, hotels, lift rides, and a lot more. For me, a free plane ticket is the best. Download the Built app and join the membership for where you live at joinbuilt.com slash slash song exploder. That's j-o-i-n-b-i-l-t dot com slash song exploder.

17:48Charli XCX:Use the song exploder link so they know I sent you. This episode is brought to you by booking.com. I've been to a few national parks over the years, and it's always been a pretty magical experience. I've been to Yosemite and Joshua Tree here in California. Those are some of the closest ones to me. But I've been wondering about taking a trip to one that's maybe not so close. And last year, I started looking at some lists ranking some of the most beautiful national parks. And one that's come up on a few of the lists is Glacier National Park in Montana. Okay, that's the first part of the daydream sorted.

18:20Charli XCX:The next is, where am I going to stay? So I went on booking.com to look at some options, and they have all kinds of different places to stay. I found a little cottage that looks incredible. It has a mountain view, it has a balcony, it has air conditioning, it has great reviews. I'm very excited about that idea. Or if I decide I want to bring my dogs with me, I can use the pet-friendly filter and it turns out there are some really nice pet-friendly hotels on the site too. So go on, book that trip. It's easy. Booking.com. Booking.yeah.

18:57Finn Keane:I like to write with a lot of auto-tune and a lot of my songs have a lot of really heavy auto-tune on them but when I did the initial vocal take for this it was very, very, very tuned and there is still tune on this track No, it's how it makes me feel and it makes me feel How it makes me feel, yeah it makes me feel How it makes me feel, yeah it makes me feel How it makes me feel when the camera's on But actually what we really liked was then doubling the vocal with the completely untuned vocal. It makes me feel and it makes me feel

19:51Finn Keane:That contrast, again, it's like that jarring thing. I think that was important to us, you know, for it to not feel super smooth. Because there's definitely a version of this song that could have felt very kind of like smooth and sort of perfect, but that doesn't really match the feeling of what I'm singing about, so that's why we decided to not go that route. I always feel like the mistakes are the best and most human moments, actually. And there is one of those in this song, actually, right at the end of the chorus, when I say, when the camera's on, there's this accidental, like dodgy guitar lead static.

20:39Finn Keane:It was just going to be a break and we were like, oh wait, that's actually really good and weird and punctuates it in a way that's way more interesting than a traditional beat cut.

20:57Finn Keane:That was sort of like one of those mistakes that we loved. and then in the sort of outro of the song everything becomes super minimal and there's that bass that is plugged in and played direct with no effects pedal or anything like that you know to give it this sort of like very like honest presence i say i can't finally be totally honest It's like I'm looking down the barrel of a gun. Fucking shoot me. And when I said fucking shoot me, I don't know where my head was at. I really was talking about, like, a gun. I wasn't thinking about the double entendre of, like, the camera. And then it was actually only, like, afterwards I was like, oh, wait, that's cool.