Hayley Kiyoko - Girls Like Girls

0:00Hayley Kiyoko:You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Hirwe. This episode of Song Exploder is brought to you by Booking.com. My wife and I have been thinking about visiting some of our friends in Philadelphia this summer. And so while we've been daydreaming, I've been looking on Booking.com to check out places where we might stay in Philly. I put in our dates and there are over 100 options listed. So I'm going to start narrowing things down. I'm going to choose places that have an eight or higher rating and a king bed available.

0:38Hayley Kiyoko:And then I'm going to focus on hotels in one of my favorite neighborhoods, the Rittenhouse Square neighborhood. And look, there's a hotel here with a 9.0 rating. And there's a note on the site that says couples in particular like this hotel. They rated it a 9.5 for a two-person trip. All right, so look at that. That sounds pretty awesome. You can find exactly what you're booking for. Booking.com, booking.ya. Book today on the site or in the app. This episode is sponsored by the new video game Mixtape. It's sort of like if the movie Dazed and Confused were a video game. It's about high school and adventure and nostalgia.

1:19Hayley Kiyoko:and if you're the kind of person who cares about the power of an amazing mixtape, then this game is probably for you. The soundtrack features Smashing Pumpkins, Iggy Pop, Suzy and the Banshees, Joy Division, The Cure, and a lot more. Mixtape comes out May 7th on console and PC. Check it out at mixtape.game. Hayley Kiyoko is a singer, songwriter, author, and director from Los Angeles. She was a child actor on Disney and Nickelodeon, and briefly in a girl group called The Stunners. But then she started her career as a solo artist. In 2015, she put out the EP This Side of Paradise, and one of the songs on it was Girls Like Girls.

2:02Hayley Kiyoko:She co-wrote it with Lily Mae Young and Owen Thomas, and it was produced by James Flanagan. Hayley co-directed the music video for it, and when the song and the video came out, it was an absolute phenomenon. It became a lesbian anthem. Rolling Stone named it one of the most inspiring LGBTQ songs of all time. Haley's legion of fans gave her the nickname Lesbian Jesus. In 2023, Haley adapted the song into a best-selling coming-of-age novel. And in June 2026, she made her feature film directorial debut with the movie adaptation of Girls Like Girls. So for this episode, Haley and I talked about how it all started with the making of that song.

2:45Gotta get with you Girls like girls like boys do nothing new Girls like girls like boys do nothing new I'm Haley Kiyoko.

3:05Hayley Kiyoko:Do you feel like you've always been a performer? Is that just something that's been a part of you since the beginning? So a fun fact is I wore a back brace in middle school for two years. I had really bad scoliosis and I credit that experience and moment for the ability to fake my confidence because it was sink or swim. It was like I'm wearing this back brace and I'm going to get bullied or I'm going to have to pretend that this is the coolest thing you could do is is fix your scoliosis. And that's the direction I went. And so I kind of created this facade of confidence. But when I would come home, I felt very alone and very isolated.

3:47And I didn't feel like I had real connection. I knew I was queer since I was like five or six. And, you know, I have a specific memory of seeing NSYNC at the Staples Center. and I watched the boy band. I was like, oh my gosh, I want to be on stage singing a song with screaming girls all over the place. Like that is my dream. I wanted to be this pop star. And I was like, how does that work? I was like, okay, I love writing music on my acoustic guitar in my bedroom. And, you know, I would write songs about girls all the time, but I would change the pronouns from she, her to he, him in my journals in case someone found them.

4:29So like, even though I knew my truth, you're still even having to hide in your own space. So I really struggled with like self-worth and self-love.

4:41Hayley Kiyoko:I feel like people might be surprised to learn that because weren't you on TV and already kind of a young star at that point? Well, the first time I booked a role, I was 17. So I wasn't like a kid kid, but I ended up starting to book commercials where I played a musician. Like I was in like a Cinnamon Toast Crunch commercial and I was like rocking out on the guitar. And I like would pretend to be a musician, but I really wanted to be a real musician. And I had a brief stint of being in a girl group way even before I was a solo artist. And I was really exposed to the male gaze and performing for these men in the music industry.

5:29And I'd never felt safe to tell people that I was a lesbian because I was worried that I would lose my job or like I wouldn't be supported in the group or stuff like that. So there was a big fear and disconnect where I really wanted to be myself, but I felt like being myself was going to hinder my ability to be successful. And so I really struggled being able to connect those dots.

5:56Hayley Kiyoko:What do you remember about the first day of working on Girls Like Girls? It was a rainy day in Los Angeles, and I was still searching for my sound and my voice. I was with another two writers who were married couple, Owen and Lily. We had written a couple songs prior and I remember it was raining and Lily was like, what are you most afraid of to sing about? Like, what is the scariest thing you could share that you've never shared before? And she had just such a warmth to her. And I had known I was a lesbian for a very long time, But I never really came out to people, especially like co-workers.

6:38But I felt very like safe and comfortable with her. And I felt like she wouldn't judge me for who I was. And so I came out to her, started crying. And she was like, why don't we write about that? I remember talking to Lily and just talking about how it was so frustrating. because when I was like fantasizing over my crush or like wanting to be with a girl, I was always comparing myself to a guy. Like, I wish I could say this and say that and say this. As a woman, you're jealous of what men get to experience because women are still not like equal in society or we're taught that we're not equal. And it's so frustrating because girls like girls like boys do.

7:30And I always found myself in like a love triangle almost where it was me or him. And it's like my feelings are just as valid as this guy who's in love with this girl. And we were just having this conversation and she was like, well, why don't we just like say that? Girls like girls like boys do. And so we started on the chorus and started with that as like the foundation of what the song would be. Girls like girls like boys do nothing new. Girls like girls like boys do nothing new. And then the convo was kind of like who I wish I was at that time, which was confident and like, I'm going to steal your girl and like, you know, who I wanted to be that I wasn't.

8:25Hayley Kiyoko:Did that point to any musical starting place for you? I grew up playing drums. So percussion and rhythm has always been a huge inspiration for me. And I feel like when I listen to a great song with an amazing snare and amazing kick, like I'm just in it. And so when I think of like cool or like what I wanted or confidence, I think of drums. Did you end up making a demo that day? Yeah, we did. But I have no idea where that is. And actually, we should pause this and I should try to find it. Found it? Yes. We did make a demo. Owen produced it.

9:24If you feel it too Tell me if you're in Won't you come out? Tell me now if you're in Won't you come out? Boy Yeah, we finished the whole song that day.

9:44Hayley Kiyoko:So after you had that demo, did you have something in mind for where you wanted the song to go in terms of the production? I just wanted it to feel like me. And I think as an artist, you're always searching like, who are you in sonic form? You kind of like do writing sessions and you meet different people and you're almost like dating, you know, and you're like figuring out who you like working with. And so I met James Flanagan in 2013. I just really loved his charisma and we really connected and aligned. I think he was in LA for a period of time, but he lived in the UK. He lived in London. And so we met early on.

10:30And then when I started working on the side of Paradise, I called him up. I was like, hey, like, I have no money. Would you want to work with me on my EP? And he was like, if you find a place to stay and you come to me, absolutely. And so I flew to London and we wrote for like a week. And then a couple months later, I was like, how do we get back together? Because you live in London. I live in L.A. And he was like, well, I'll come to L.A. Do you have a place to stay? And I was like, well, you could stay with my parents and we could make like a makeshift studio in the garage. And so he agreed. So he lived with my parents.

11:17experience for, I think it was like two or three weeks. And he came out, it was just me and James and we produced the record. So my relationship with James was very collaborative. It was never like, this is what I think you should do or else. I had just been in a girl group where you didn't get to write the songs. You didn't get to have any say. I had been through that. And that's not the experience I wanted when writing my music.

11:49Hayley Kiyoko:My conversation with Haley Kiyoko continues after this.

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13:42Hayley Kiyoko:Do you remember the first time you shared this song with James? Yeah, it was interesting. So we had picked the songs for the EP and I didn't put Girls Like Girls on the EP. I didn't want to because I wasn't ready to come out. I was like, once I release this, people know I'm gay and then I can't turn back. like it's over it's over for me but I was like I think I should throw it on like it's the best song like why wouldn't I put it on and so it was kind of like a last minute addition to it I remember playing it for James and I think he knew the weight of what this moment was for me and you know I think he took that seriously the song is correct me if I'm wrong all vocals and electronic sounds.

14:33Hayley Kiyoko:What determined those being the sounds? I think at the time budget, but at that time I was so like synth forward. I loved like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And TV on the radio and M83. And, you know, so that's all I wanted. And he had like a novation station. It's this little mini keyboard and there was like 80 presets on it or something like that. And we kind of go through and he's like, how does this feel? How does that feel? You're really just twiddling and feeling it out because you don't know where the destination is. But I think as a musician, you hear something and you're like, yeah, that's it. That feels right.

15:20That one, one, one, that part, I felt like was kind of the identity of the song.

15:42it is a weird beat when you isolated it i was like where's the tempo i was like it's almost like a weird like shuffle to me that's the heart of the record those two sounds there's like a confidence in the drive of it but there's also hesitancy in between and i think the whole metaphor of this song is like i was trying to lead with confidence but i was actually really hesitant and so i think weirdly that really mirrors how I felt. The opening line of Girls Like Girls is stealing kisses from your missus doesn't make you freak out. It's like I'm pursuing her and why couldn't I pursue her? Stealing kisses from your missus doesn't make you freak out.

16:37Got you fussing, got you worried, scared to let your guard down. Oh, boys.

16:45Hayley Kiyoko:You know, you said that you used to write your songs on acoustic guitar. Where did the guitar fit into your sense of your musical identity at this point in your life? It didn't, and I was trying to remove it. Really? When you have a guitar in your bedroom and all you have is your guitar, you just want every other instrument but the guitar, at least from my experience. And my dream was to be able to work with a producer and be able to record my music and use like anything else but the guitar. I just wanted to get to experience other sounds and things that I personally couldn't create or achieve just on my own.

17:23You know, James is such a great instrumentalist, finding these little pieces to really just elevate the journey of the song.

17:43I'm real and I don't feel like boys

17:49Hayley Kiyoko:Do you feel like your acting work helped with the performance of the singing part? Yeah, I think so. I think my acting experience of just like putting this cap of confidence. I mean, I do have the side of myself that is very confident. And I think it's just, I remember recording it and James, you know, being like, feel confident in what you're saying. And we would try different things. I tried whispering it. I tried talking it. I tried shouting it. And it just kind of sat in this kind of more conversational tone that ended up shining. Tell the neighbors I'm not sorry if I'm breaking walls down.

18:34Building your girl's second story. Ripping all your floors out. It's just so interesting to listen to those lyrics. It's like, damn, those are some cocky lyrics. Really confident lyrics there.

18:50Hayley Kiyoko:Do you remember how you got to that second verse? Lily's such a visual person. And, you know, the chorus is so just direct. And I remember we were talking and she was like, let's build a visual. Let's create a world and tell the neighbors I'm not sorry if I'm breaking walls down, building your girl's second story, ripping all your floors out. I think it's such a beautiful sentiment because it is like for so many people, some people of my experience where they they know who they are from the beginning and they're hiding who they are. And then there's other people who maybe get married and then find the love of their life later on in their life and ends up being a woman or they end up realizing something about themselves and their identity.

19:37And it's a rainbow.

19:40Hayley Kiyoko:Had you been in a relationship at that point? Yeah, but like, you know, just like toxic relationship vibes. You know, I was always falling for like the straight girls or the unavailable girls. And but I hadn't experienced like real love at that time or anything. But I've had like experiences. Falling for the straight girl is a good way to get into a love triangle. Absolutely. Really set yourself up for success there.

20:14and then I remember I was like oh the song's called Girls Like Girls and it'd be funny to be like almost sarcastically being like boy you know as like I'm talking to this guy that I'm stealing his girl from yeah

20:35Always gonna steal your thunder. Watch me like a dark cloud. On the move, collecting numbers. I'ma take your girl out.

20:49Hayley Kiyoko:Having the harmony that's going throughout. Do you remember where that idea came from or how you were? That was classic. I'll share with you. It stems from feeling insecure with my vocals, growing up not being the best vocalist and having to learn how to sing because I was so desperate to express myself through song. And so I would always layer my voice. I grew up listening to like Emma Jean Heap and, you know, like the vocoder stuff she would do. And so I've just always loved like walls of voices.

21:26Girls like, girls like, boys do nothing new. Isn't this why we came? Gotta get with you. Girls like, girls like, boys do nothing new. We mixed this song on an iHome. Do you remember an iHome? Like the ones that were the alarm clocks by your bedside. That's what we mixed the song on.

22:02Hayley Kiyoko:Because those were the best speakers you had in the house? Yeah. Well, we also didn't have money to get it like professionally like done. So James like mixed it on the iHome and was like, well, if it sounds good on the iHome, then it'll sound good in everyone's professional speakers.