Jack Harlow - Say Hello

0:00You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Hirway. Song Exploder is sponsored by Intuit TurboTax. I don't know if you have this feeling, but I constantly find myself daydreaming about finding an expert who can solve a very specific problem in my life. And one specific problem that comes up every year is filing taxes. but luckily finding someone who can solve that problem is easy with TurboTax. They have dedicated tax experts who are there to help you every step of the way. With TurboTax expert full service, you can match with an expert who will handle your taxes from start to finish no matter how complex.

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2:13Jack Harlow is from Louisville, Kentucky, and started performing and releasing music in 2015 when he was in high school. In 2020, he released his first album, which went double platinum. He was nominated for a Grammy for Best Rap Performance. He's had multiple number one hits across his first three albums. And for his fourth album, Monica, which just came out in March, 2026, he switched things up dramatically. And I was curious how and why How did someone who had so much success as a rapper approach a new way of making music? So for this episode, I spoke to Jack Harlow about the song Say Hello, which is the closing track on Monica.

3:06My name's Jack Harlow. I was working on a different album for two years after Jackman, my last one. And it was good, but I didn't think it was exciting or surprising. It just wasn't distinct enough. And it also felt like something I'd done before, which, you know, repeating yourself is boring. And I was getting more and more frustrated and I was dreading going to the studio. And, you know, as soon as recording becomes work, you're in trouble, I think. Not that there's no work ethic involved. Of course, sometimes you have to grind it out. But when you're trying to get inspired and it feels like labor, it's something to take as a sign.

3:47So finally, I just took three weeks off. I remember talking about it with my engineer right before I took that three week break and sort of having to reconcile it in front of him, almost a little embarrassed saying, yeah, man, you know, I just got to think. and he said it out loud for me. I was already thinking it, but he put it really well. He's like, I think you just need to choose a North Star that is distinct and definitive. So I took a lot of walks. You know, I think part of the reason I was dreading going to the studio is I had just moved to New York and I would look out the occasional window I might have in a studio or I'd go outside.

4:22I'd say, wow, I'd rather be out here than be in there recording. And so I I decided to think about what do I actually want to do? What am I listening to? What does my ear crave? I've always been attracted to melody, and I listen to a lot of melodic music. I find I prefer melodic music, and I think there's something so timeless and emotional about melody. A lot of my early stuff had a lot more melody involved, and then it's almost like I found my rap tone, and I was getting such a great response from it, and it became something I could lean on so consistently that I think I got further and further away from melody.

5:02But the genre of neo-soul as a whole was super influential to me, just how pleasant it was. So I wanted something that in 20 years I'll still like the sound of.

5:16About three years ago, I first called Wind of Axl Arvid a loop maker from Norway. And there's a lot of loop makers in hip hop that are over in Europe that are almost faceless to the rest of the industry and just send loops through email to big name producers. So to me, he was another one of those. And he was talented, but I didn't know much more about him. And he worked with my longtime friend and collaborator, Two for One, who I grew up with. But he introduced me to Axl and brought him to Kentucky for the first time. and he was just somebody I met in passing and we had a couple songs that we worked on together.

5:53And then sometime in 2024, my little brother, Clay Harlow is a producer too. He's on this album and he became closer with Axl as well. And he asked, could he bring Axl to a session? So Axl came around and we started to get to know each other and we started to realize there were parallels and our interests and our natures. He and I bonded over R &B. We were attracted to similar melodies and sounds, so he became the clear go-to guy and executive producer for me. I could tell you a few of the rules that we followed. You know, I think rules are so, so wonderful to end up somewhere specific. And I'd say the number one, when Axl first got to New York, the first thing I said after those three weeks of deliberating were, I don't want to make anything with braggadocio or overt egoism.

6:43You know, I want to make something that I think can age really well. And I was at the time in a mindset of ego is weighing down the quality of the music as it gets older. So I was interested in no braggadocio. I was interested in only being melodic. So singing the whole time, no cursing. Curse words can be a crutch sometimes. They can also be exciting and add a punctuation to things, but that's not what I was looking for this time. I like the challenge as a writer of not having any crutches. And then all the instruments we eventually decided had to be live, except for the drums. Drums could be programmed to keep it hip-hop, but no synths coming out of the computer.

7:25The bass, the guitar, horns, strings, everything had to be live. So those were some of the things we lived by and we knew we'd end up somewhere. Of the songs that made the album, Say Hello is the earliest. I showed up to the studio and Axl played this beat made up at the time of Jermaine Paul's bass notes, Axl on Rhodes, and he had done the drums as well. And he just played me the beat. I just sat there with shades on for 20 minutes listening to it, just steeping myself in it. You know, I was very moody in these sessions. I think the stakes felt high to me. I just scrapped an album and I cared a lot about how this was going to end up.

8:16And I don't think moodiness is the best response, but I'm a naturally moody person. And sometimes I walk in there and just, I just need a second to warm up socially. And this is one of those days where I walked in a little moody. And sometimes I just want to listen to the beat. I don't want to talk about what I think of it or how it got made. I just want to hear it for a while. And I think this is one of those days where I just wanted to let it play. But I immediately was like, oh, this feels Slum Village. This feels Outkast. This just feels like part of the music I love. It felt very in line with the reason I started this project as all.

8:56And so I knew as soon as I heard it, I was like, okay, there's something here. and then we started playing with melodies the first few weeks of this album when we were still figuring out what it was i was recording on almost everything he played because i didn't want to be too rigid about what i thought it should be or how i wanted it to sound so despite the moodiness i was describing there was a general optimism and openness to everything i was hearing because i just wanted to see where we might land and we could filter it later we can decide where we're going later, but this was still when I was in a zone of, let's try it.

9:34I mean, a lot of these songs were made just with taking the SM7 out, holding it in my hand, and just doing what feels good, which was a relatively new process for me, something that I've been avoiding the last few years. I've been so statement first, lyrics first, that I think I've missed out or just neglected the improvisational nature of just playing with melody and making it nonsensical to start, and that's how this song started. It was kind of nonsensical and just finding a melody that felt good.

10:19I would lay down a melody for four bars that I really liked and I'd say, while I'm still flowing, let me move on to a different melody. All different melodies of just word vomit.

10:39And sometimes while you're scatting the melody, a word will come to you. Sometimes you find words that lock right into place. And that's when it feels really good. You don't feel like you're compromising. You feel like it's you and the universe cooking something up.

10:58The first line, maybe I'll get at you when my life gets slow. As soon as I said that, I was like, okay, I kind of know what this could be about because I've expressed that sentiment before, or at least thought that sentiment in my head. This doesn't have to be a right now thing, but maybe when things slow down, it'll align. And maybe it won't. It's not just my decision. It's not just me saying when things slow down for me, I'll be available for you. It's maybe you'll be available, maybe I will. maybe the stars will align is that sentiment but one day i'll be walking by the place you stay it felt like a mosaic of memories i feel like i've had a good amount of stop and starts with people that it wasn't negative it didn't end in an ugly way but sometimes you begin something and the timing isn't right but there's still a positive feeling you still like something about them.

11:55You're not dumping them, they're not dumping you. It's just, huh, this doesn't seem to make sense for us right now.

12:04Up to this point, my vocal has been this singular, laid back, sometimes monotonous rap vocal. And I didn't want to just make new music, I wanted to be heard in a way I've never been heard. And it thrills me that a few of these songs people have to ask, is that you? Because I think it's exciting to access new parts of your voice and stretch yourself. I'm missing you in the shape of you. I'll visit you when the day comes. I'm giving up control. I'm giving up control of you. You know I want you back. You know I come running back. Sometimes I... In my head, there's only so many sweet spots in my voice.

12:52And when I find the sweet spot, whatever notes those are, whatever octave it is, that's what I can accomplish on this song. And, you know, this album was not about showing people how good of a singer I am. It was about showing people my choice and curation. I'm not looking to show people, oh my God, he's actually an incredible singer. I'm looking to show people I can make music that sounds really good. and whatever way I get there is the best way I get there, but I wanted to make something that was less about my talent being on display and more my taste. Oh, oh, say hello, say hello. I mean, I remember early in my career wanting to make a commercial splash and almost looking down on stuff that wasn't taking enough of a risk to be commercial.

13:40So now I find myself on the other end of the pendulum saying, well, I'm more interested in making this type of music right now. There's things I'm still driven by. There's things I'm still insecure about. You know, I still have a status anxiety from time to time, like anyone that's trying to climb. I would love to catch a smash over this album, but that's not why I made it.

14:04More with Jack Harlow after this.

14:09I have a new album of my own coming out on April 24th. It's been about 15 years since I last put out a full length, and this is the first one that'll be out under my own name, Rishikesh Hirwe. I started making Song Exploder when I was feeling lost in my own music career. And then for over a decade, I've gotten to have these incredible conversations about the process of making music, talking to other artists, and it made me completely rethink my relationship to music and my way of writing songs. And this album is the product of all of that. It features contributions from some of my favorite artists, including some folks that you may have heard on this podcast, like Iron and Wine, Kevin Morby, Vagabond, Fen Lily, and the producer Phil Winerope.

14:50I'm going to be on tour playing in cities across the U.S. starting in April, and I'm trying to bring the spirit of the podcast with me. So every show that I'm playing will begin with a conversation about the album with a different amazing guest moderator in each city. Like Adam Scott, Samin Nasrat, Jason Manzoukas, Josh Molina, Min Jin Lee, Ken Jennings, John Roderick, Austin Kleon, and more. They're all going to be my conversation partners on stage. And then I'll play with my band. The album is called In the Last Hour of Light, and the first couple songs are out now. You can listen to the music and get tickets for the shows on my website.

15:27rishikesh.co or just go to songexploder.net slash live. That's songexploder.net slash live. Thanks.

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19:03So like I said, I come up with all these melodies without troubling myself at all about the words. And then we go into puzzle piece mode and say, cool, let's actually do some of the work, the labor of piecing these together. And I know a lot of artists that hate the lyrics part. You know, that's why so many artists work with writers because they want all of music. They want their whole career to be instinct. And I relate to that, but I enjoy language enough that I enjoy the puzzle piecing of lyrics. And it does get frustrating sometimes, but I like both sides. I'll be understanding if you change your name.

19:36I'll be understanding if you change your name. If you get married, I get it. Maybe you prefer to live a life you know. With my career, I end up meeting women that they live a life that is totally unlike mine and maybe is a little slower and more stable. and it's me essentially saying maybe you would actually enjoy living the life that is familiar to you and is more conventional than mine and maybe that is what's best for you. I definitely zeroed in on a poignant acceptance and melancholy over change and how things change and you know the nostalgia of looking back on this time you shared with somebody but accepting that it's a thing of the past and who knows what the future holds.

20:27The emotion got more specific and it gave all the musicians something to work with.

20:39Jermaine plays a six-string bass and he would lay foundational stuff and then later come back and play something interactive on top of it.

20:52and then Robert Glasper is playing all that piano.

21:03Robert and I had worked on some music before that never came out, so I brought him into the fold. But I'm such a minimalist by nature that sometimes I have to force myself to give things these richer details.

21:24And a lot of it was so jazzy that I had to grow used to it.

21:39So the maximalism versus minimalism was a huge thing with this song, and there was a lot of conflict between me and Axl over how much of this busy piano we were going to keep.