Key Change: John Green on "You'll Never Walk Alone"

0:00You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Hirwe. Thanks to Quince for their support of Song Exploder. There was a survey done recently that found that over 50 % of sweaters found in my closet come from Quince. That's because there are so many good ones on their site, and I want all of them. For me, their cashmere sweaters fit in the exact sweet spot between casual and dressy and between effortless and put together. So I just got a new one, the Mongolian cashmere fisherman's sweater. I wore to a show last night.

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2:05Visit TurboTax.com to match with your expert today. It's only available with TurboTax full-service experts. The real-time updates are only in the iOS mobile app. This is Key Change, where I talk to fascinating people about the music that changed their lives. My guest today is John Green. My name's John Green, and I'm a novelist and YouTuber. John is the award-winning, number one best-selling author of books, including Looking for Alaska, The Fault in Our Stars, Turtles All the Way Down, The Anthropocene Reviewed, and Everything is Tuberculosis. John and his brother, Hank Green, have co-created a lot of projects together, including their massive YouTube channel, Vlogbrothers, and their podcast, Dear Hank and John.

2:48John also serves on the board of trustees for the global health nonprofit Partners in Health. And when I asked John if there was a piece of music that changed his life, he knew the answer right away. It's a song by Jerry and the Pacemakers called You'll Never Walk Alone, which is a cover of a cover. It's from the musical Carousel, I think. And it's a little bit of a convoluted story how this song came into my life. But, you know, in thinking about your question, have you listened to a song that really changed your life? There are certainly songs that mean more to me than You'll Never Walk Alone.

3:24But there's no song that's changed my life more dramatically. How do you parse the difference between those two things? Well, you know, my favorite band is a band called The Mountain Goats. There are songs by Will Oldham that I really treasure. There are songs by Loretta Lynn that I really treasure from my childhood. But You'll Never Walk Alone had this, or has, I guess, this ongoing deep impact on my daily lived experience, which is very weird for me. I mean, I'm not a music guy like you. I don't have the relationship with music that you have. But I do find that certain songs kind of carry me through, and You'll Never Walk Alone is chief among them.

4:07Do you remember the first time that you ever heard it? Oh yeah, vividly. So when I was 12 years old, I was a soccer player. I was very bad, but I was very passionate. And I worked really hard, but I didn't have any talent. And there was this kid on our middle school soccer team named James, who was from England. And this kid was incredible. I mean, he was the best soccer player any of us had ever seen. He was so overwhelmingly the best soccer player on our team. I mean, I don't think we won a single game, but he would score goals from like 30 yards away. It was incredible. Where were you playing soccer when you were on this team?

4:42Oh, in Orlando, Florida, the white hot center of American cultural life. And James told us that in England, where he was from, you know, tens of thousands of people would go to soccer games and they would be arm and arm and they would sing these songs together. And he told us that the best team in all of England was called Liverpool Football Club. And I believed him. And I remember the first time I ever heard You'll Never Walk Alone, it was on a VHS tape in high school, a VHS tape of an old game between Liverpool and I can't remember who. And I heard You'll Never Walk Alone sung from the stands, you know, tens of thousands of people, just like James Promise, singing this song together.

5:22And it was absolutely magical. And it's been magical in my life ever since. You know, what happened in between, you know, 12-year-old John playing on that soccer team and then high school John watching that Liverpool game? So when I was in high school, I went to a boarding school in Alabama and one of my good friends eventually turned into the novelist Daniel Alarcone. At the time he was just Daniel, our friend, and he was a big soccer player and he and his friends would get these VHS tapes of games and that's how I came to watch it. But I mean, I guess the short answer is that I just never stopped loving soccer.

5:56I stopped playing it because I was no good, but I never stopped loving the game. But it was only when I heard You'll Never Walk Alone and really started to become a Liverpool fan in my teens and 20s that I started to understand that the game wasn't about the game, for lack of a better term. It was about something else, something much deeper. It was about people whose love is oriented in the same direction and how good that feels. You know, there's this great Donald Hall line where he writes about third things in marriages. That, like, a marriage isn't primarily, like, you looking me in the eyes all the time.

6:30And it's really about our shared attention intertwining around a third thing, whether that's kids or the New York Times crossword puzzle or the Boston Symphony Orchestra or whatever it is. And for me and for tens of thousands of other people, Liverpool Football Club is a third thing. It's a thing that we look at instead of looking at each other. And through the looking at it together, that intertwined attention, something like as close to literal magic as I've ever experienced happens. Could you walk me through you hearing that song on the VHS tape? Like, what was happening in your brain as the audience started singing?

7:08Like, was that a surprise to you that they started singing? James had told you that people do this, but... Yeah, but it's a completely different thing to hear it and to see it and to feel the passion behind it, the connectivity behind it, the community behind it. It's a totally different thing to have that feeling. So as I recall, I am sitting in the TV room at my boarding school. This VHS tape is playing, and I'm listening to this song. Never heard the song before. I don't know about the musical carousel. I don't know about the history of the song or anything like that. I can barely even make out the words because they're sung in this very northern English accent.

7:52But the way that the actual words, you'll never walk alone, are sung is such a mix of commitment and desperation, a need to believe that you'll never walk alone, that it just hooked me, man. It just hooked me. and every time I've heard the song since whether I'm in that stadium listening to it in real life or I'm watching it on tv or whatever every single time I feel the same thing I get goosebumps I feel overwhelmed I feel like I'm not alone and so in high school especially in college and then even more in my 20s it was sort of a slow progression away from being a casual Liverpool fan to being a really committed one.

8:39But during that process, the song would come back to me over and over again. You know, occasionally I'd hear it on the radio. I had it on a CD, on a burnt CD. I just loved listening to it. I mean, it's a super cheesy song. Like, it's really pretty cliche. But the The thing about cliches, right, is that sometimes there's something to them. And I needed, I still need to hear that idea that even when you feel like you're walking alone through the world, you're not. Because you're carried by all the people who've loved you and you're carried by all the people who love you still. And the song is the reason I'm a Liverpool fan.

9:22And I don't think that's just true for me. I think that's true for lots of people. Really? It's not the other way around. People don't come to the song because of the team. I think sometimes people come to the song because of the team, but sometimes people come to the team because of the song, because the song is so, I mean, I don't know if you've heard the song. It's not technically great. Do you think the song itself is not technically great or the Jerry and the Pacemakers cover of it? I'd go so far as to say both and.

9:55You know, it's a cheesy song. Like the chorus is, you know, walk on through the rain, walk on through the wind, and you'll never walk alone. Like, I mean, what are the two most obvious things you could walk through other than, you know, rain and wind? It's not lyrically sophisticated. It's not that musically sophisticated. But the message of it is very clear, very simple. You're not alone even when you feel like you're alone. and that's a message that I need to hear a lot. I need to hear it reinforced over and over again, and so to have that message reinforced to me every Saturday really does mean something.

10:32I mean, I'm a religious person, but I'm not as religious as I used to be, and it's sort of what I have instead of hymns. Could I ask you a little bit about the development of your fandom? How did you go from being a casual Liverpool fan to, as you said, getting more and more into it? What was it about that team that made you want to become more than just a casual fan? I mean, I think initially it was the song. To some extent, it was the players. Like, I loved those players in the 90s and 2000s and everything. But, you know, I didn't have like a favorite player I connected with the way lots of people connect with Messi or Pele or whatever.

11:09I just loved the idea of being part of a community, a community that sang this song before every game. game it just seemed so novel to me it seems so different from american sports so much more like a community asset than a franchise i was going to ask you is there a moment when this song is traditionally sung in the game it's before the game yeah so it's sung at the beginning of every game but it's also sung at the end of every game and then most magically my greatest moment as a liverpool fan was in 2005 the champions league final all the best teams in europe play in this big competition and we made it all the way to the final.

11:47And we were down 3-0 at halftime, which is a completely insurmountable scoreline. And not only were we down 3-0 at halftime, we were down 3-0 to a much better team. And at halftime of this game, the fans, despite being utterly, hopelessly defeated, started singing You'll Never Walk Alone so loudly together that down in the bellows of the stadium, the players could hear it.

12:35and they came out and they scored three goals in the second half sent the game to extra time and won it in penalties and became champions of europe for the fifth time and like it's the ultimate statement of the power of music. It had a real impact on actual people who are not musicians, who are not like huge music fans, who may not even love the song. It just, yeah. So I think we sing it at the beginning of the game, we sing it at the end of the game. And in times of great need, we sing it in the middle as well. Well, I wonder if, despite the fact that there are maybe hundreds of thousands of fans in England who support Liverpool.

13:14The fact that it was maybe a more rare kind of fandom here in the US, did that have any kind of appeal for you? You know, like the feeling like when a band is underground and you're the only one who knows about it? Yes. Yes, absolutely. It made me feel very cool to be a Liverpool fan. And now being a Liverpool fan is relatively common and a little bit cliche, but at the time, it's very much like following a band when they're underground, where people would be like, do you like basketball? And I'd be like, oh, no, no, that's not for me. But soccer, European soccer is my game. And I didn't know very much, you know, because I was a kid.

13:51And also, you know, I didn't have that deep a connection to the city or anything. It's not like I'd traveled to Liverpool at the time. And so I was like, not very knowledgeable, but extremely passionate, like a lot of fans when they're young. So yeah, that was definitely me. Do you know why this song is such a big song for the team? Yeah. So they've been singing it on the terraces of the stadium since the song was a popular song. And it was sung by Jerry and the Pacemakers are a Liverpool-based band. And so they've been singing it since it was a hit. They used to sing all the Beatles hits too, right?

14:28Like the Beatles are also a Liverpool band. It's just that song took on a different meaning because it's so much about struggle and toil and moving on through loss and feeling connected to other people. And that's so much of what sports fandom is. So I think that's why it stuck around. But it's, you know, I think it's important for people who don't like sports to understand that sports is theater. It's theater where the actors don't really know what's going to happen necessarily, but it's not that different from any other form of theater. And because the fans in much of the world sing all through the game, it's musical theater.

15:10And so it's actually not that surprising that a song from Carousel would become this sort of classic song sung by Liverpool fans. I mean, Manchester City fans sing songs from a musical. Like, it's not that uncommon. It's just that You'll Never Walk Alone is, in my opinion, my extremely biased opinion, by far the best one. My conversation with John Green continues after this.

15:35I have a new album of my own coming out on April 24th. It's been about 15 years since I last put out a full length, and this is the first one that'll be out under my own name, Rishikesh Hirwe. I started making Song Exploder when I was feeling lost in my own music career. And then for over a decade, I've gotten to have these incredible conversations about the process of making music, talking to other artists. And it made me completely rethink my relationship to music and my way of writing songs. And this album is the product of all of that. It features contributions from some of my favorite artists, including some folks that you may have heard on this podcast, like Iron and Wine, Kevin Morby, Vagabond, Fen Lily, and the producer Phil Winerope.

16:16I'm going to be on tour playing in cities across the U.S. starting in April. and I'm trying to bring the spirit of the podcast with me. So every show that I'm playing will begin with a conversation about the album with a different amazing guest moderator in each city, like Adam Scott, Samin Nasrat, Jason Manzoukas, Josh Molina, Min Jin Lee, Ken Jennings, John Roderick, Austin Kleon, and more. They're all going to be my conversation partners on stage, and then I'll play with my band. The album is called In the Last Hour of Light, and the first couple songs are out now. You can listen to the music and get tickets for the shows on my website, rishikesh.co, or just go to songexploder.net slash live.

16:59That's songexploder.net slash live. Thanks.

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19:12And more recently, I've gotten a couple rugs, a circular rug for under my dining table and one for outdoors. Right now in my cart, I've got these expandable bamboo dividers so that I can organize my dresser drawers. Honestly, you can find so much stuff there. And coming up, they've got Wayday, which is the sale to shop the best deals in home. We're talking up to 80 % off with fast and free shipping on everything. So head to wayfair.com from April 25th through April 27th to shop Wayday. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. What was the first time that you ever went to a Liverpool game in person?

19:58So the first time I went to a Liverpool game, it was in the U.S. It was actually, I think in Charlotte or somewhere in the U.S. But it was a preseason game, you know, So it kind of didn't count, but we did sing You'll Never Walk Alone, and it was awesome. It was awe-inspiring. It was borderline sacred. It was so cool. And then I really wanted to have that experience in Anfield Liverpool Stadium, and so I got to go not that long ago, a few years ago, went to a Liverpool game for the first time, and that was an amazing experience to sing the song with all those fans who sing it every Saturday. The other cool thing about the experience actually was that I happened to be seated about eight seats away from a young player's dad.

20:47And the young player came on and scored his first goal for Liverpool. And I got to watch his dad watch his son score, which was pretty special. What was the experience of singing that song actually like when you were there in the stadium? So you get to the stadium, you maybe have a pint of beer, you make your way to your seat. Were you just buzzing with anticipation about singing? Oh, yeah. I was so excited. I was with my buddy Stuart. I was so excited. I just couldn't believe the whole thing, you know? It was all magical. I keep saying magical, but I don't know what other word to use, because there is something about music that takes me as close to magic as I care to get, as I can experience.

21:32So I think that's why I keep using the word magical. But anyway, I was absolutely buzzing. I was thrilled. I was, I mean, it's a pilgrimage site for a lot of people, you know, like I'd been a Liverpool fan for 20 years at that point. And we make our way to our seats and then they start playing like the first notes right before kickoff. They start playing the first notes and then you hear this wall of sound from the area called the cop when you walk through the rain, hold your head up high, and you just hear this wall of sound coming to you. And then you realize that you are also like pushing the wall of sound back and forward and left and right.

22:13And 80 ,000 people or however, I don't know how many people fit in Anfield, but all those people can't actually sing a song at the same time. Like, it's too big, so the song is sort of echoing around, and, you know, this side of the stadium is half a bar ahead of this side of the stadium, and it's just super intense. More than anything, it feels like a revival or something, you know, like one of those old-timey revivals. That's how I felt. I sometimes say about books that the thing I love about reading is that you can visit places in your mind that you can't get to any other way, that are, like, inaccessible to me except when I'm reading.

22:53And that's true for music too. I was able to visit a place within me during that song that I simply can't get to any other way. As you were describing the experience of seeing the dad see his son score his first goal, I have to admit that I started to get a tiny bit choked up. And I was just wondering, how much crying do you do during Liverpool games? So much. I love a good cry. For me, sports is a great way to get to crying. I remember Liverpool won the league a couple years ago. It was during the pandemic, so there were no fans allowed in the stadium. It was sort of awful. I wanted, you know, 60 ,000 fans in that stadium singing You'll Never Walk Alone along with the players.

23:41I wanted all those things, and we didn't get any of them. But I just remember when it was finally confirmed that we were going to be champions, I think like Chelsea had to lose a game. We weren't even playing. We weren't even on the pitch. Right. I just remember like bawling. And I had just recorded a podcast with my brother and I hadn't stopped the recording. And so I was able to listen back later to me being like, come on, come on, blow the whistle, blow. Yes! And then just bursting into tears. So, yeah, it's a way into feeling. You know, one of my friends, Roger Bennett, sometimes says that football is a way to feel things that are hard to feel in real life.

24:26And one of the things I love about sports is the purity of feeling. Like, it's actually pretty rare for me to have a really pure joy. Because even when something good happens, I'm always like, well, that pretends something bad. Or when something bad happens, I tell myself, well, maybe, you know, this will be the start of something good. But I always have mixed up muddled emotions, except when I'm watching football, when I have the purest emotions in the world. And in that way, it is more like opera. It really is like opera. That's a great point. I mean, that's why we watch operas, because of the purity of emotion.

24:59Even if it's a little bit over the top and everything, it's pure. You know exactly what you're supposed to feel in that moment. In terms of feelings, does singing the song feel different for you after Liverpool has won a game versus after they have lost a game? Absolutely. It works as both lamentation and thanksgiving, right? That's the magic of that song, is that it works as both a, this sucks, but you'll never walk alone. And as I've been telling you, you'll never walk alone and feel this joy together. Yeah. It really works as both kinds of song. Well, do you have a preference between the two?

25:44Yeah, I prefer it when Liverpool win. Because you connected the song to a feeling of struggle. Yeah. And of course, everybody wants their team to win. But I think about teams like the Mets or just teams that they have fans who have for their entire life only known losing streaks. Right. And that is just part of the fandom. And so to experience winning, I don't know, it's easy to be a fan of something when you're a winner. You know, when your team's a winner, it feels like the fandom is a little bit, it costs less. Yeah. And so I wonder if it means more when it costs more. I think it does. I think it definitely does.