In short
Leon Thomas’s “Mutt” (title track) creation—how the song’s “hound dog/mutt” concept, funk-inspired bass, and an interpolated Enchantment sample shaped its sound and vulnerable lyrics; plus the production workflow and vocal layering.
Guests (backgrounds)
Leon Thomas is a singer/songwriter/producer/actor, nominated for six Grammys; he previously won a Grammy for work with SZA. David Phelps (D. Phelps) and Rob Geringer (Freaky Rob) are long-time collaborators/producers who met as teens and built the track in their Logic-based “playground” studio.
Key claims
“Mutt” was a survival-instinct record during label uncertainty; the hook came from a bare-bones loop; they recreated the Enchantment feel via interpolation; Leon re-recorded vocals for precision; call-and-response phrasing was added by Phelps.
Notable examples
Elvis biopic “hound dog” connection; bass “wild” Bootsy Collins pedal vibe; sample source “Silly Love Song” by Enchantment; lyric hook “She said, take your time, what’s the rush? / I said, baby, I’m a dog, I’m a mutt.”
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Journey to 'Mutt'
0:51 to 2:28
Leon shares his transitional period leading to the album 'Mutt'.
“Mutt is his second album, and I talked to Leon about the title track, which was a breakout hit.”
Meeting the Producers
2:28 to 3:08
Leon discusses his collaboration with producers Rob and David.
“I decided, I said, okay, we're going to have to go in and really swing hard on something that works.”
Crafting 'Mutt'
3:08 to 4:12
The team shares their initial ideas and creative process for 'Mutt'.
“Me and Dee were terrible at doing content.”
Developing Themes
4:12 to 6:40
Leon explains the themes and emotions behind the song 'Mutt'.
“He named the playground because it was like a pretty large room.”
The Music's Evolution
6:40 to 8:16
Discussion on how the music and structure of 'Mutt' developed.
“And the term mutt, immediately it just had like a ring to it.”
Sampling vs. Interpolation
8:16 to 10:40
Exploration of the differences between sampling and interpolation in music.
“It's like a party in the studio when you're there with your boys, you know.”
Lyrics and Inspiration
10:40 to 12:14
Leon shares how personal experiences inspired the lyrics of 'Mutt'.
“So like the bass and guitar, like Rob knocked that out real fast.”
The Dog Incident
12:14 to 14:05
Leon recounts a humorous and unexpected event involving his dog.
“I feel like after we built it, we got out the way.”
An Unexpected Visitor
14:05 to 15:06
Leon shares a surprising story about a stranger in his home.
“I don't have a weapon nearby and I'm thinking about it and I'm saying to myself, all right.”
Creative Freedom in Songwriting
15:08 to 15:42
Leon discusses the differences in his songwriting approach for himself and others.
“than when you're writing for other artists?”
Show all 15 chapters
The Vocal Production Process
15:51 to 18:37
Leon explains his unique approach to recording vocals and the playful nature of his music.
“Do Rob and Dave get involved in the vocal side of things or do you do that production on your own?”
Duality of Emotion in Music
19:01 to 19:40
Leon reflects on the emotional depth in his song and the metaphor of dogs.
“She said, take your time, what's the rush?”
Confidence in Creating Hits
19:40 to 20:18
Leon shares his feelings about the potential success of his song 'Mutt'.
“did you already have a feeling that this was going to be a hit?”
Introduction to 'Mutt'
20:26 to 20:52
The host introduces the song 'Mutt' by Leon Thomas.
“And now, here's Mutt by Leon Thomas in its entirety.”
Listening to 'Mutt'
20:52 to 24:05
The full song 'Mutt' is played, showcasing Leon's artistry.
“I said baby I'm a dog, I'm a mutt She said take your time, what's the rush?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Leon Thomas:You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Hirwe. This episode of Song Exploder is made possible by IBM. It was recorded in front of a live audience at IBM's offices in New York City, and it was a great experience. I learned a lot about the work that IBM's doing in partnership with the Grammys, which includes the Grammy IQ trivia game that you can check out at iq.grammy.com. It was built with IBM Watson X, and it's just one of the ways IBM helps create smarter business. This episode contains explicit language.
0:39Leon Thomas:Leon Thomas is a singer, songwriter, producer, and actor. He's nominated for six Grammys at this year's Grammy Awards, including Best New Artist, Best R &B Album, and Album of the Year for Mutt. Mutt is his second album, and I talked to Leon about the title track, which was a breakout hit. He'd already won a Grammy for his work with SZA, but he reached a new level in his own career with this song and this album. I also spoke to David Phelps and Rob Geringer, aka D. Phelps and Freaky Rob, who produced the song.
1:26Rob Gueringer:I'm a dog, I'm a Mud. I'm a dog, I'm a Mud.
1:32Leon Thomas:Leading up to the day when you first started writing Mud, what was going on in your life?
1:36David Phelps:Right around the time when I was doing the album Mud, it was a transitional period in my life. You know, I had records that were doing very well for other artists. There was a song that I produced for SZA called Snooze that was like burning up the charts. previous to that, I was working with Drake a lot. But at the end of the year, I was very frustrated because I felt like my first album, Electric Dusk, was getting some love, but it wasn't enough to really shake the building. And we had a new president coming in to the label, and it was a very scary time because sometimes when the person that signs you leaves the label, the next person could easily say, all right, we're not sure about this kid.
2:23David Phelps:So this record, Mutt, was a survival instinct. You know, I went in top of the year. It was January 1st, 2023. I decided, I said, okay, we're going to have to go in and really swing hard on something that works.
2:38Leon Thomas:It was literally New Year's Day.
2:39Rob Gueringer:Yeah, literally New Year's Day. January 1st, 2023. My name is Rob Garinger, a.k.a. Freaky Rob. And I'm D-Phelps. And we produce Mutt. How did you two first start collaborating? We met when I was 14. And I had to be like 16. And have you been making music together ever since? Ever since. So the way we even met Leon is my management and David's management have been on our asses about doing content. Me and Dee were terrible at doing content. What do you mean by content? Like how you see producers on Instagram. they make the beat from scratch and then they put it up and it was like our managers was pretty much like you guys need to get in on that like you guys should be making videos you should be showing some of these gems and so we had did a cool idea this day in particular David was like you know what I'm gonna record myself playing the drums and I'm gonna put that
3:37David Phelps:up I was scrolling through Instagram and I saw a video of David playing drums and freaky rob playing bass and I DM them.
3:46Rob Gueringer:And you know it's funny because when they came out that video didn't have that many views but it led to him so.
3:53David Phelps:Meeting up with them was like finding Lost Brothers. I feel like we all listen to the same mixture of Led Zeppelin, Kendrick Lamar, Miles Davis, Pink Floyd. You know these guys get me. They understand P-Funk in a real way. They understand Jazz, Art Tatum, John Coltrane they get my mind when it comes to wanting to make something that feels like something finding that in a collaborator is rare and I knew we were going to make something special I didn't know when but I knew we were going to make something special so when you started working
4:28Leon Thomas:on on the song Mutt how much had you done together at that point probably about six months in to working okay so you had a solid working relationship with them yeah man we would pull up you know Rob
4:40David Phelps:Bob had a studio. He named the playground because it was like a pretty large room. He had instruments lined in so any musician could come in and pick up their acts of choice, the keys, drums, whatever. And it was all lined into Logic and we could play. So when you first started Mutt, how did that day begin? I walked in on a mission. Top of the year, it's up. I was energized. It was the same kind of vibe that people walk into the gym with on like January 5th or some shit. I was just like, I'm going to do it. Six Pack is on the way. You know what I'm saying? I had this energy to me that felt like, all right, we got to make something special.
5:18David Phelps:You could tell he was ready to get to something.
5:21Rob Gueringer:Talking to me and David like we the congregation. Yeah, and I just remember Leon with the sunglasses and just like, guys, I had an epiphany.
5:31David Phelps:So while I was on Christmas break, I watched this Elvis biopic, and he had the hound dog, almost like a totem for his world. and at the time I had a dog and a cat and my dog and my cat were bickering and my cat, you know, lightly taps my dog on the face with her paw and my dog had this face like, like he kind of did something wrong, but it was like playful. And in that moment, his face, I don't know, maybe this sounds crazy, but his face looked like mine. I was kind of seeing myself in him for the first time and that honestly really hit me. I wanted to find a way to kind of tie in all of these songs about unrequited love, about maybe being a player at times, or maybe not being the right kind of partner at times.
6:23David Phelps:And I wanted to find a way to really encompass all of that from a very vulnerable place rather than a place of bravado. I was like, hold on, mutt, hound dog, all of this, all right, we could tie this together. And I thought it would be a real fun, playful hook, you know, because my dog is a mutt. You know, he's a German Shepherd husky pit. So he's just got a lot going on. And the term mutt, immediately it just had like a ring to it. The vibe was right.
6:49Rob Gueringer:One thing about him is just like, we know a dreamer when we sing one. And we're going to empower it. And so we was just like, all right, let's get it. So did you start with the music? Well, funny enough, the music already was started. It was started already. Yeah, we just didn't know it. Basically, bro kind of gave us what he was searching for sonically. and then we just started pressing play on beats and stuff like we always do. And then I found the session on accident looking for another beat I was supposed to play Leon and played the beat.
7:23Rob Gueringer:And then I tried to stop it and he was like... He was like, that's it. That's it. Me and David looked at each other like, what the hell? Because it was so bare bones. It was just kind of like an eight bar loop. because we used to make sketches like we would be at the studio so long either he david would get bored just go start some shit and i'll come back to it later add everything or i would do the same thing we like literally save stuff like rob come back to this or david add keys to this and it was one of those things and i low-key had forgot about i'm like this shit is hard and leon was like y 'all want to go ahead and build this out my brothers
8:02David Phelps:I spent years producing for other people. Sometimes it's nice as an artist to walk into something that started. And then if I have ideas, I'm down to go back and forth with the producer to see if we can take it to another place. But it can be a little exhausting if you're trying to do 100 % of everything. And less fun. I like to collaborate, man. It's like a party in the studio when you're there with your boys, you know. When everybody's together and everybody's coming up with really cool ideas. the art of collaboration can really turn into a really positive thing.
8:31Leon Thomas:So at this point, all you had for the instrumental was drums, 808 and a sample?
8:36Rob Gueringer:Yeah, the sample was Silly Love Song by Enchantment.
8:47Rob Gueringer:Rob is the reason I heard Silly Love Song. He was cleaning up his studio one day on a Sunday. My studio was a wreck at the time. We had just recorded a bunch of different sessions going on that week. So the studio was in shambles. And that's my happy place. Like David knows I'm a very old soul. I'll put on oldies. I'll clean up. But I didn't know. What's funny is I thought he knew what that song was. Because this is like backyard barbecue Chicago music. Like my grandmothers, my uncles, they're stepping to this. They're having a good time. They vibing. Like this is like a part of my childhood, you know.
9:23Rob Gueringer:And when I seen him go to the computer after listening to it, I was like, oh, shit, he hears something.
9:32Rob Gueringer:That's him on drums.
9:40David Phelps:That's what got me. Like, I was like, yeah.
9:45Rob Gueringer:But I know how big the song is personally. Right. Like, OK, well, it's Enchantment. but Leon is just like I don't give a damn this is a great song like you know what I'm saying but we're like thinking about the actual logistics like the real part of it
10:01Leon Thomas:right like you're thinking about how do we do this without having to rely on a sample
10:05Rob Gueringer:you didn't want to go down that rabbit hole getting in trouble and stuff so we literally made it a point to try to recreate or interpolate that whole feeling
10:14Leon Thomas:what is the difference between using a sample and then doing this kind of interpolation that you're talking about what does that change Your finances.
10:23Rob Gueringer:Literally. You pay either way. It's just depending on how much. You get to save a little bit if you go one way opposed to the other. But I do think us being able to interpolate the song actually did add a unique energy to the sonic wall.
10:39Leon Thomas:How did you go about doing that? How did you recreate the sample?
10:43Rob Gueringer:We built over the sample. So like the bass and guitar, like Rob knocked that out real fast. Piano. Shout out to Leon a lot too, because with the strings, he kind of took the initiative to get those things recorded.
10:57David Phelps:But at the time when I first heard the instrumental, there was no bass yet. Once again, I told you I had this mission. I was like, now we need that P-funk. I was like, yo, Rob, if you could play a bass line, but I wanted to have that wild Bootsy. Bootsy Collins is known for his use of the wild, wild pedal and that open closed feeling. and it gives so much structure to the bass. And it's like really dope and vintage. You know, it's that funk.
11:34Rob Gueringer:That drum and bass is a marriage that's like, you know, me and D have been playing together almost 20 years. So it's like, some things, it's just a chemistry thing, you know.
11:46Leon Thomas:The story of Mutt continues after this.
12:14Leon Thomas:music fans on grammy.com with features like the grammy iq trivia game or delivering personalized experiences to the 24 000 members of the recording academy which in turn serves the entire music community all of this helps make the recording academy more productive and innovative that's how ibm is helping the recording academy create a smarter business after you put together the bass and drums and the elements of the beat. What happened next?
12:44Rob Gueringer:I feel like after we built it, we got out the way. Another person that helped with this song is Busy Crook. He's a great songwriter from Miami, rapper, artist.
12:53David Phelps:Shout out to my boy Busy Crook because we send each other ideas through a text thread and have been doing that for years now. So we have a text thread for, I'm going to say about eight years of just endless verses.
13:08Rob Gueringer:Paragraphs long, like it's crazy.
Read the full transcript
13:10David Phelps:And I knew what the hook was going to say, but I needed verses that felt fun and playful. The first verse and I think the second verse were constructed years ago. It just never found a home on another song.
13:40I feel like finding something potent to say that's clever and cool takes more time, but melody is the fun part. So yeah, melody was like, that was my first mind.
13:50David Phelps:A lot of the stuff on this record was like my first mind and I refused to overthink it.
14:05David Phelps:I really attached myself to that lyric Because right around that time I woke up in the middle of the night To my dog barking And I mean he barks But he was like going at it So you know I put some shorts on Just to see what's going on And there's a grown man Sitting on my couch and I'm like, hmm, all right.
14:27Leon Thomas:A stranger.
14:28David Phelps:Absolute stranger, gang. So I'm like, what? I don't have a weapon nearby and I'm thinking about it and I'm saying to myself, all right. I just watched John Wick and I did some random call. Get him, boy. Like, like, like, like, kind of my dog lit. I don't know. It was an energy, I guess. My boys comes running out the door, barking, and he's a big boy, so he's just barking and, you know, charging towards the living room. By the time my dog turned the corner, that man was out of my crib. So it was kind of fire. It was kind of fire that my boy Terry saved the day, man. He locked it in.
15:07Leon Thomas:When you're writing your own songs, do you find that you think about that process differently than when you're writing for other artists?
15:15David Phelps:Absolutely. I mean, I have free reign to mix genres in ways a lot of other artists aren't open to. I can say outlandish things that I think I would feel comfortable saying on a stage that maybe other artists wouldn't be open to. That was the reason why I started kind of stepping away from songwriting and productions, because I kind of didn't like how safe I had to be sometimes. It became a bit constraining, especially when everybody has these imaginary formulas on what a hit sounds like. when honestly I feel like the best music comes from being honest. And I think a lot of people just kind of overthink it.
15:51Leon Thomas:Do Rob and Dave get involved in the vocal side of things or do you do that production on your own?
15:56David Phelps:Well, the way I work is selfish on purpose. So I'll be in my headphones and I engineer myself just so I don't get any doubt in the building just in case I'm working through something. And so essentially all they're hearing me do is just like riff and they're hearing a little bleed from the headphones. We sit there patiently while he just records. So I started with the verses, and then I got to the hook.
16:31It's got that silly, playful, flirty energy to it.
16:38David Phelps:Throughout the verse, I'm just talking about how it's hard for me to trust because people can be kind of wild But I see something in you and I just want to speed into things. Let's just get straight to the love, you know Let's just fall in love and if you want to break my heart, it's all good. I don't care, you know It's really slick. It's the slick talk, you might say That'll make the girl you really like laugh, but also Also, who knows?
17:02Rob Gueringer:So you can break my heart if you want to She said, take your time, what's the rush? I said, baby, I'm a dog, I'm a mutt.
17:14David Phelps:And then Phelps, he never does this, but he was like, yo, what if you do like a call and response thing?
17:20Rob Gueringer:David told Leon, we need something to connect the phrases. And I left to go get Chick-fil-A and I came back and the shit was like, ooh, ooh. I was like, whoa, like, no, that shit is fire. and he had harmonized them too. She said, take your time, what's the rush? I said, baby, I'm a dog, I'm a mutt. I'm a dog, I'm a mutt.
17:47David Phelps:I used Verispeed and I did the falsetto part in the middle. It's like intricate stuff, but then it's also, it's play, man. We were at the playground and I was just playing and I was trying to impress my friends and say like, yo, look. His little falsetto he does at the top.
18:05Rob Gueringer:Oh my gosh. It's crazy.
18:12Rob Gueringer:So sweet. It's just like those money notes. Like those runs were so crazy to me.
18:19David Phelps:Then I went back to my home and recorded the actual vocal that's out there in the world. That was a fun experience because I knew the vocal I put down just sounded like bourbon. And I wanted it to be a little cleaner and just like really precise. I'm glad I took the time to re-record.
19:01Rob Gueringer:She said, take your time, what's the rush? I said, baby, I'm a dog, I'm a mutt. I'm a dog, I'm a mutt.
19:16The layers of this project show the vulnerability that are within a dog. I mean, I think anybody that owns a dog understands that even that vicious pit bull loves to cuddle.
19:29David Phelps:and I think there's a duality behind that.
19:38Leon Thomas:When you finished the song, did you already have a feeling that this was going to be a hit?
19:43David Phelps:I knew I liked it. I would play it at my house and I could drive to it. It was the kind of song that I could enjoy. But it's tough being an alternative R &B artist, I would say. Sometimes it was kind of hard being an outsider in the beginning. But around that time, I did a lot of self-reflecting and a lot of dreaming. And the greatest thing about music to me is that you can bottle up an emotion and a feeling. And waking up that year, I was like, things are going to change. I'm going to be everything I'm capable of, and I'm going to continue to just have fun.
20:26Leon Thomas:And now, here's Mutt by Leon Thomas in its entirety.
20:51Rob Gueringer:She said take your time, what's the rush? I said baby I'm a dog, I'm a mutt She said take your time, what's the rush? I said baby I'm a dog, I'm a mutt I'm a dog, I'm a mutt I can't smoke no reddy so pardon my bluntness I see past pretty faces so I got trouble trusting But I let my guard down for you Said I'll put my guard down for you Said I'll be vulnerable So you can break my heart if you want to She said take your time, what's the rush? I said baby I'm a dog, I'm a mutt She said take your time, push the rush I said baby I'm a dog, I'm a money I'm a dog, I'm a money No crib time to come through, it's time to break it in 32 like my pants size cause the niggas tried breaking it No condos, say your name at the front You can stay if you want It's been one of those nights One of those nights I ain't had in a minute It's been a minute Had to pop a shroom to recreate the feeling But it's never the same as the first time we did it First time we did it But I let my guard down for you Said I'll put my guard down for you Said I'll be vulnerable So you can break my heart if you want to She said take your time, it's the rush Take your time, what's the rush?
22:43Rob Gueringer:I said, baby, I'm a dog, I'm a mutter She said, take your time, what's the rush? I said, baby, I'm a dog, I'm a mutter I'm a dog, I'm a mutter
23:04Alright.
23:43Leon Thomas:To learn more, visit songexploder.net. You'll find links to buy or stream Mutt, and you can watch the music video. This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Mary Dolan, and Kathleen Smith, with production assistance from Tiger Biscuit. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. If you'd like to hear more from me, I write a newsletter where I write about the making of some of these episodes and about music and film and the creative process.
24:23Leon Thomas:You can find a link to the newsletter on the Song Exploder website. You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net slash shirt. I'm Rishi Keish Haraway. Thanks for listening.
24:48Leon Thomas:Thanks again to IBM for their support of both Song Exploder and the Grammys. IBM helps smarter businesses like the Recording Academy find new ways to connect with and leverage their data wherever it lives. Let's create smarter business, IBM.
From the publisher
Leon Thomas is a singer, songwriter, producer, and actor. He’s nominated for six Grammys at this year’s Grammy Awards, including Best New Artist, Best R&B Album, and Album of the Year for Mutt. Mutt is his second album, and I talked to Leon about the title track, which was a breakout hit. He’d already won a Grammy for his work with SZA, but he reached a new level in his own career with this song and this album. I also spoke to David Phelps and Rob Gueringer, AKA D. Phelps and Freaky Rob, who produced the song.
For more info, visit songexploder.net/leon-thomas.
