Paul McCartney - Ripples in a Pond

0:00You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Hirwe. I'm going to be on tour for the next few weeks, and all the dates are at songexploder.net slash live. I'm going to be playing songs from my new album, In the Last Hour of Light, with a full band, and I'm going to be talking about the making of my album with a special guest moderator in each city. I get to be the interviewee instead of the interviewer. So I'm going to be joined by Jason Manzoukas, Samin Nosrat, Allison Russell, Joshua Molina, Ken Jennings and John Roderick, Min Jin Lee, and Adam Scott.

0:37It's a really personal album, and I hope you can make it out to one of the shows. You can get tickets and more info at songexploder.net slash live. Thanks so much to Gusto for sponsoring Song Exploder. When I started this podcast, I gave myself a year to see if it might turn into something. and then it turned into a small business, which was great, but it also brought all of this admin work with it. And anybody who's tried starting a small business knows that it can be really daunting and time-consuming, but that's where Gusto comes in. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses.

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1:56And so while we've been daydreaming, I've been looking on booking.com to check out places where we might stay in Philly. I put in our dates and there are over a hundred options listed. So I'm going to start narrowing things down. I'm going to choose places that have an eight or higher rating and a king bed available. And then I'm going to focus on hotels in one of my favorite neighborhoods, the Rittenhouse Square neighborhood. And look, there's a hotel here with a 9.0 rating. And there's a note on the site that says, couples in particular like this hotel. They rated it a 9.5 for a two-person trip.

2:34All right, so look at that. That sounds pretty awesome. You can find exactly what you're booking for. Booking.com, booking.ya. Book today on the site or in the app. Hi, Rishi. Hi. So nice to meet you. And is it pronounced Rishi? Rishi, yes. Rishi. Yes. The H is just there to fool people. Exactly. Could you introduce yourself? Hi, this is Paul McCartney, and I'm on Song Exploder. Paul McCartney is a singer, songwriter, multi-instrumentalist, and producer whose career spans more than six decades. as a member of the Beatles and later Wings, and then his own solo albums. He's simply one of the most influential artists of all time.

3:21He has more accolades than I have time to list in this intro, but if you're listening to this, you already know all that. In May 2026, he released his 20th solo album, The Boys of Dungeon Lane. He co-produced it with Andrew Watt, who won the 2021 Grammy for Producer of the Year, and whose credits include working with Lady Gaga, the Rolling Stones, Justin Bieber, and Elton John. For this episode, I spoke to Paul McCartney about his new song, Ripples in a Pond. I love you more than I ever did before The feeling grows and grows Let's carry on making ripples in the pond We'll see how far it goes

4:08Where were you when the first bit of this idea for this song came to you? I was in East Sussex, England on my farm where I live, is sitting around enjoying a day off. And that's normally when I write songs, if I'm lucky enough to know that I've got the next three or four hours and nobody's going to interrupt me. And I was actually thinking about my missus, Nancy, and thinking, you know, how lucky I am to know and love someone like her. We've known each other quite a long time, and it's a very interesting relationship. We're nothing like each other. How so? I mean, I'm English. She's American. She's very practical.

5:02Get things done. I'm much more sort of whimsical. I will get things done. but in maybe not as practical a way. But we know each other and we know how to be with each other. So I was just thinking about how blessed I am. You know, anyone who's in a good relationship with someone is inevitably really blessed. And it's nice when you're thinking that to introduce that idea into a song. And I'm often just sitting around with a guitar. If I find a couple of nice chords,

5:48then I'll strum them and see if it leads me anywhere. That's the process for me, is doing the chords. but then like almost immediately i will try and block it out with words even if it's nonsense it at least shows you where you want the song to go i mean for instance years and years ago with the beatles i had dreamed the melody to yesterday and i didn't have any words to it so I blocked it out by singing scrambled eggs Oh my baby, I love your legs so we had scrambled eggs and legs but at least it helped me remember it so you sometimes do that and so after I'd sort of found some chords on the guitar I often then will see what happens when I put it on the piano and this actually worked better on the piano

6:55The way the chords seemed to me to sing a bit more. Sometimes I get the feeling that you're good for me Sometimes I'm stressed My mind's in old But sometimes hard to see I know that it's more than fast That was a very early version. I didn't have the lyrics ironed out But I had the feeling You tell me that you'd like to know what's going on I thought you'd guessed Before you think that something's going wrong I'd like to get off my chest I love you more than I ever did before The feeling of the rose But I explained that I'd do it all again I go, let someone know I live, let someone know That someone know So that was what it was.

8:10I was now fishing around. I call it fishing. You know, just fishing around, see what might come. Because I don't know. I don't know this song. Nobody knows this song till I've written it. So it's nice. It's a sort of quest. It's like following a trail of breadcrumbs in the woods. You're not quite sure where it's going to lead, but it's fun just to see if it reaches a good place. Reaching out to the universe Reaching out to the universe Painting up the sky Hey, hey, yeah, babe So that's the process, really. I, you know, do the little demo. And then if I'm at the studio, I will then say to Steve, my engineer, I've got this song, you know, let's try and put it down.

9:32So we'll try and make something a bit more of it, but it's still not concentrating on making the record. In this version, it sounded like it might be a live recording with other musicians. Is that right, or is this you playing everything? No, that was me. A lot of stuff on this album is me. You know, piano, vocal, and drums. I'm putting the bass in and enjoying myself. This is from 2015, and you've had albums come out since then. How come this song didn't appear on those earlier records? Did it feel like it wasn't finished yet? Yeah, I think that's the thing. You know, you sometimes will write a thing and be not entirely convinced.

10:20So you kind of put it a little bit on the back shelf. You know, songs can just lay around. And I'm meaning to finish them, but I just, I'm on tour somewhere, you know, so I don't really have the time to get to grips with it. But yeah, this one languished around a little bit.

10:51I can see that in these versions, you kind of go back and forth between whether you're singing to you or whether you're singing about her. Was that something you debated for a while? I debated it for a little while because you do. Doing anything creative, you're always thinking, should I do that or do this or this? But I had to make the decision. Am I going to tell this song directly to Nancy or am I going to tell this to a friend and say, you know, sometimes I think of her. But pretty soon afterwards, I thought, it's not direct enough. I think I'd rather have it coming directly from me to her.

11:36So I changed all the she's and hers to you and yours. I love you more than I ever did before. The feeling grows and grows. Let's carry on making ripples in a pond and we'll see how far it goes. I was wondering where the phrase ripples in a pond came from, how that came to you and what that means to you. I like the ripples in a pond idea because it's a good image for me. For instance, if people pray, the idea is that you pray and it creates ripples and it goes and it reaches the deity you're praying to. I like the idea of saying something and it ripples out into the universe. And I like the idea in a romance of saying, let's see how far it goes, because you can't plan it.

12:40You can hope it's going to work and you can hope it's going to work out well. But there is an element of guesswork where you're just saying, you know, fingers crossed. Hey, Richie, I'll tell you one thing. You're making me think more about this song than I've ever thought about any song ever. My gosh. But anyway, it's fun. My conversation with Paul McCartney continues after this.

13:17Song Exploder is sponsored by the game Mixtape. And to learn more, I talked to one of the creators. My name is Johnny Galvatron. I'm the writer and director of Mixtape. It's about three teenagers on their last day of high school going to their final party together, listening to the greatest mixtape of all time. And where did the idea for this game originally come from? Just wanting to make a game based around That's Good by Devo, which is the greatest song of all time. There's just something alive in that song that speaks to me. And it's very much a game about being a music lover and someone who appreciates music and knows where to place it in their life.

13:53And then game-wise, there are different kinds of mechanics. There's different kinds of music. There's different kind of art style. So the game as a whole should be viewed as a mixtape and kind of this artistry of arrangement. And so how is the game itself like a mixtape? So usually in a video game, you will have a standard set of mechanics, which might be fighting. but in a mixtape there's different people saying different things with different vibes and you want each song to be given its own experience its own life and you want to use the medium that's what's kind of important about making video games you want to use the medium to show what the music is showing we have this song bj thomas most of all where a friend gets betrayed and she floats back through town and just kind of knocks everything out of her way as she floats through town and you control her.

14:42And like, what a beautiful way to kind of use that song and to use a mechanic and input to show the betrayal and the despondency and the sadness. And when you can get all those things mixed together and hit those crescendos where you hit between video game, music, narrative, that's the gold, that's the diamond that you aim for. I think you would really dig it. Mixtape comes out May 7th on console and PC. Check it out at mixtape.game. You know why I love summer? All those plans we made, they finally make it out of the group chat. Seems like there's more time to fit everyone in. Whatever you've got in store this summer, capturing those memories is a must.

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16:04This episode is made possible by Quince. and if you've been listening to the podcast, you've probably heard me talk about how much I love the elevated casual pieces that I've gotten from Quince, like cashmere sweaters and my organic cotton chore jacket. But the other day, I realized I really wanted a shirt for just lounging around the house in. Something cozy, but not too warm since summer setting in. So I ordered a sweatshirt called the Super Soft Fleece Crew and I never want to take it off. The name is completely accurate. It is super soft. It feels amazing. And everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 % less than similar brands.

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17:09So the next version of the song that I have is a recording from 2022, seven years later. This is quite a stretched out affair. I must say, I never realized that it's been that long between, you know, attempts. But, you know, one of the nice things about this kind of recording, as opposed to in the old days, we pretty much had to just write the song, learn it, record it, thank you, good night. But this way, you can mess around and you can try various things. So I know there was a trumpet solo.

18:09But I think we just decided to leave that off the record and just replace it with guitar.

18:32How did you first meet Andrew Watt, your co-producer on the album, before you started working together? Well, I met him in L.A. My manager said to me, there's this guy called Andrew Watt. And I said, yeah, I've heard of him. I liked some of the music he'd done, but I didn't know him. He said, would you like to meet him? I said, yeah, sure. I said, oh, just go and have a cup of tea or something. but I didn't particularly think we'll work together. I thought, let's just see if we like each other. So I went over to his studio, which was in the basement of Charlie Chaplin's old house, and we were sitting around chatting.

19:14I started to show a couple of ideas and just in general conversation. He followed on, and so we just were sitting there throwing ideas around and we were writing the first song on the album. That was it. We just met, cup of tea, and a song appeared. It was kind of lucky, really. I can't imagine just the sheer number of people who want to collaborate with you in some kind of way and have wanted to collaborate with you over the years. Is it complicated for you at all to let someone else in to your music? Yeah, I think so. Because, you know, working with John Lennon was something that happened when we were kids.

20:05Neither of us really knew how to write songs, so it just grew organically. And because John and I had such a natural relationship that had matured together, I'm inevitably comparing whoever the next person is I'm writing with. And as time went on and the Beatles broke up and I was no longer writing with John, I did try working with a couple of other people. But yeah, you're right that having worked with John. And now for someone to just come into the room, we don't necessarily know much about each other. That does make it a bit harder, I must admit. So was it hard to then go from that casual conversation with Andrew and working on music with him to formally ask him to work on the production of the album?

21:02I don't think I ever did. I'd enjoyed the experience of writing the first track so I think it was just like yeah okay what are you doing next Thursday we just kept on got our diaries out and found it the next date and picked it up I brought this song over and I said let's finish it up because I think this could work on the album but on this track I said to him in the studio I said I said Andrew look one of the reasons I got with you is because you're a pop producer and I'm waiting for you to pop these songs up. What are you going to do with them? You know, are you going to? And he said, well, no, I'm just letting you lead the song.

21:51I said, well, you shouldn't on this one particularly. I think that you should just do your thing on it. And he said, are you sure? I said, yeah, really. I thought the song could take that kind of treatment, produce so it was right in your face, do what you would do with this song and don't even think about what I would want from it. So he just started cooking. His engineer was called Paul. And of course, because I was called Paul, we had to call the other Paul Billy. so he ended up as Billy but Andrew just started shouting at him yeah do that take that out don't need to lose that put that up and gave it I think a little bit more of a pop sensibility which is kind of what I was looking for we just put a couple of other little things on it there's like nice little harmony I should have guessed which I think really helped well Sometimes I get the feeling you're so good for me I must be blessed I must be blessed My mind says, although I sometimes don't agree I know that it's for the best For the best, for the best We put those on in L.A.

23:19I should have guessed I should have guessed I would take a knife, just an ordinary kitchen knife, and play, like it's a drumstick, a note on one of the strings on the piano. I'd never done that before, so for this it was new, and you get a different sound. I like that, I like the textures, it adds to it. in the intro of the song there's a little thing that happens at the end of the lead guitar part that i wanted to ask you about

24:10aha yeah there's something about that part that just feels and i just get such a feeling from it Like it feels joyful. Yeah, if I'm putting the first bit on, I know that I can mess around afterwards and just do something free. Because if we don't like it, we can just not use it and just cut it off. But if we do like it, it can find its way in there. It's just a little something, a little tasty something, you know?

24:41I'm glad that you get the idea that we're having fun because that is what it is. and it's also a romantic song for my wife. So I can say to her, this is about you. In fact, it's funny, I played it for her recently and I don't think she knew that it was specifically about her. I don't know who she thought it was about, but this was specifically about her. So I thought, you know, it's about time that I finished it up, played it to her and told her, this is about you. I love you more than I ever did before The feeling grows and grows Let's carry on making ripples in a pond We'll see how far it goes

25:29And then what's this sound?

25:38It's a vocal. Really? Yeah. I've got a Vox amp that I use mainly for guitar, but it has a tremolo. So if you put a noise through it, a guitar thing, it's going to... So again, in the spirit of fishing around for interesting ideas, I've said, let's try putting the vocal through it. So instead of it just going... We put it through that and he went na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na.

26:19You know, I'm glad that I haven't reached the point where I'm so blasé that I just want to just get on, write a song, record it, go home. I like the process of discovering new sounds and new ideas. And sometimes you hardly hear them until you've heard the song 20 times. And you go, what is that little noise? But I think that's the fun, that's the fascination of it. We made this sound and had fun making it. That's all I want in life.

27:03And now, here's Ripples in a Pond by Paul McCartney in its entirety.

27:35I should have guessed Before you think something's going wrong I'd like to get it off my chest I love you more than I ever did before The feeling grows and grows Let's carry on making ripples in the pond We'll see how far it goes

28:10Reaching out to the universe Skimming across the sky If you say that I've been through worse I'll have to say that's something that I couldn't deny Who knows if I ever do enough for you I try my best Right now, although I leave it up to you I'm gonna get it off my chest I love you more than I ever did before The feeling grows and grows Let's carry on making ripples in the pond We'll see how far it goes

29:22Reaching out to the universe Skimming across the sky If you say that I've been through once I'll have to say that's something that I couldn't deny Sometimes I get a feeling you're so good for me I must be blessed To learn more, visit songexploder.net Paul McCartney's new album, The Boys of Dungeon Lane, is out now. This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Kathleen Smith, Mary Dolan, and Tiger Biscop. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. Huge thanks to Steve Orchard for recording Paul McCartney's side of the conversation and for his extensive notes on the recording process.

30:16Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. If you'd like to hear more from me, you can subscribe to my newsletter. You can find it on the Song Exploder website. You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net slash shirt. I'm Rishikesh Hiraway. Thanks for listening. Oh, your name's Rishikesh? It is, yeah, Rishikesh. Yeah, that's my full name. Oh, I know your village.