Being Maori & Multicultural: How Heritage Drives Design with Antonia Walmsley

0:00Understanding a culture is really interesting, particularly now you're smashing a lot of cultures together in one place, in a workplace. To be able to kind of decipher from an individual and a collective point of view, no space behaves like a workplace. It's really the length of time that people spend in it. The goal to be productive in a space, in a space that can influence that productivity, is such an interesting kind of concept. What is the best environment for people to thrive and not just in their work? Thriving is about enjoying. It's about wellness. But the output is something that is excellent and has done well.

0:40And I think everyone's looking for that at the end of the day. Hello, everybody that listens, listeners. I'm actually at Unispaces headquarters in St. Catherine's Dock, which is absolutely beautiful. Literally got like the river out here. The walk here, I got so zen and chilled. Just like plonting through, I was thinking, what am I getting for lunch after this? Yeah, that's a good plan to have. I'm chatting to Antonia Walsley. That's the one. I got that. Yes, I'm there. I was actually right. I didn't know there was like a Samari. No, it's actually English. I'm the head of design, or head of strategy and design at Union Space Label.

1:26that's quite quite fancy isn't it it sounds fancier than it is i look after the european team so um but yeah of course my accent is always throws people off a little bit on the wrong side of the world to be a european leader but here we are honestly that happens a lot doesn't it yeah it does actually chatting someone at the weekend and they were like oh you've got really south ronden accent and i was like cool like but i don't actually hear accents anymore like i think I'm so surrounded by them. I don't actually hear it. I've like just... Yeah, and I think, I mean, I'm hyper-conscious of my accent because a Kiwi accent is very, it's sort of distinctive but not.

2:07But then also we have, you know, there's a cadence to the way that we speak. So I've definitely adjusted it in the last four and a half years that have been in Europe to sort of make myself more understandable. I mean, I deal with so many different cultures in a day. My team consists of Italians, Spanish, Swiss, Polish, French, all of these. So, yeah, it's important that I articulate myself. That's great. And that does actually touch on something that I do think is really interesting in Asia. Am I saying it's right? Māori. Māori. Māori. Māori. Yeah, it has a rolled R in it. So, yeah. I would have never actually known that.

2:54Yeah. It's a lot like, has he got dots in that way or something? Yeah, it has a little, I don't even know what it's called. And I'm sure it's, basically the A is long. So above, so M-A-O-R-I, Mkmaobi is, so it's like an R. Yeah, cool. Yeah. So you've got Maori roots. Yes, my mother is around about half Maori. So, yeah, it is an Indigenous New Zealander. It's cool, isn't it? It's cool. It's great. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, from a community point of view, you know, it is a really interesting culture. And it's sort of shaped, it shapes a lot of my thinking, I think, in terms of where I may be on the other side of the world, but a part of sort of being a Māori is kind of being a part of the community.

3:53It's got such a heritage of storytelling and about sort of the philosophies around kind of caretaking and looking after the planet and looking after people. There's specific names for hospitality in a really broad sense and things like that. So in terms of kind of the myths and the legions that sit within the culture, it's a huge kind of it's an well until Europeans came over it was a very oral kind of culture there was no writing down or anything like that a lot of stuff a lot of stories were expressed in craft and art and things like that rather than the written word so the Maori language now the writing is actually based on the European who came over and wanted to write things down.

4:49So it's a really interesting thing to express sort of a story or a way of living in a non-written form, which is essentially what architecture and design. Exactly. So, I mean, I'm not sure whether it was ingrained in a really early age, but it was, I I think it's just something that I find when I talk to other people who are Māori, they have sort of that ability in the orator and the ability to kind of tell a story and to, you know, yeah, just describe something. But in a pop-cop, I guess a poetic way. There's some words in Māori that don't really exist in the same way in English. And there is a lot, I mean, over here, I realise there's a lot of those words that sit in Europe as well, but from an English point of view, when New Zealand was colonised, it was sort of trying to translate words.

5:55but that as we've sort of moved on, we realise that some of those words are like, you know, manaakitanga, which is essentially in a very literal translation is hospitality, but actually in a Maori sense, it means such a wider kind of idea. It's about looking after people and not just, you know, the people who come to your house or your restaurant or something like that, but it's just a guardianship and an ability to sort of welcome people in no matter who you are, which involves more of a community version of hospitality than an individual. This is the amazing thing about having people from different parts of the world.

6:38I love cultures and every culture has got a strength as it's got a really strong something, whatever that is for different countries. and when you can find it and tap into it and lean into it, you find this whole raft of whatever it is. And in this case, it's like the whole community and hospitality in a broad sense. It's so something to embrace. It's so strong. It's so brilliant. Yeah, and I think some of these concepts that are ancient in these cultures are actually things that thinking about nowadays is what everybody's looking for. It's not, you know, when it is, it isn't, they aren't new concepts, but I think sometimes we, we have cultures and people have become a lot more individual.

7:28So in terms of sort of harking back to that community and a more holistic way of talking about things, it's really interesting. I mean, for me particularly, and that sort of, you know, I guess some guiding philosophies in terms of how I do my job. Yeah, I look after my team. Because I learn. Oh, I love it. I'll definitely tap into that. But one thing I was going to say was, with that heritage, with that kind of community, would you have been in those communities? Would you have been part of those? Would you have experienced that firsthand? Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I mean, historically, Maori culture in New Zealand, there were times where it was not talked about and not sort of embraced.

8:17In the last, I'd say, 20 years, it's really come into the forefront of who New Zealand is as a people. I think people see the All Blacks, but they do a haka at the beginning of it. And that is a really uniquely New Zealand thing. I mean, Tonga does it as well, and there's a few others. But it is an interesting kind of way of them embracing what is a very Maori thing to do, but bringing it into a mainstream element. And a lot of New Zealand journalists now speak Maori. There are words that have kind of become part of the dialogue, the dialect of New Zealand, and it's become kind of a very Kiwi way of speaking.

9:06I did not learn Māori at school. It wasn't really, I mean, you learn the odd word and things like that. My younger brother, the youngest of all of us, when he started, I guess, daycare, they had just brought in full immersion Maori daycare so he went to kōhanga he learnt Maori from the beginning he then went on to kind of be in a full immersion Maori school for his entire primary school learning so he was speaking Maori more than he was speaking English and so that got brought back home and I'm very good at Maori commands I know how although it's like put your socks on and close the door and get outside and all of that kind of stuff.

9:53That's probably, which is a shame that me and my other two sisters didn't really get that immersed in. But I look at my nieces and that sort of thing now. It's so part of the culture of New Zealand now, I guess, Māoriness and that individual. And it is the, you know, an official language of New Zealand, along with New Zealand sign language. It is something that's ingrained in it. I spent time on, you know, the Marae, which is basically my tribe affiliation sort of space that we have. So, you know, every, it's where the rituals happen, it's where you meet, it's where you kind of, you know, it is a really interesting community space.

10:47It, you know, it centres around a house. And this is the thing with, you know, I did a few papers back at university on Māori architecture and how, you know, the historic kind of influence and what, I guess, Māori architecture means to Māori. because the whare nui, they talk about it being an embodiment of the human, and they talk about the ridge being the spine, and it's planted on the earth, and it has these kind of personification kind of descriptions to it, which is always something that's interested me. It's this kind of how structure and architecture actually can be that personification of a community.

11:40It is kind of a focal point, which is always as kids running around and you slept there, so in the back of the there's a mattress room and kids would just jump off the mattress. It is a kind of a part of growing up when you're a mob, even you see or the internet part so it's amazing how does it shape how you actually like translate today like you've got a team you've got multiple cultures with working in your team you mentioned yeah and how do you feel like you might yeah how do you bring that in either intentionally or unintentionally i guess yeah i think i mean what's interesting because i mean i was moving to europe and i was I originally lived in Amsterdam, so it was sort of one of those things where I was with the same company, but it was really a life change, you know, and that was, I was looking for a bit of an kind of interesting life change after COVID and all of those things, cabin fever on an island, it's a bit sad day.

12:50But I think I was a little nervous about coming over here because I think New Zealanders inherently have an idea of Europe as being this sort of cultural centre and this sort of, you know, there's a real Europe is on a pedestal to New Zealanders. And it was where we looked to all the time, but designed for all these different kind of, New Zealand is essentially 200, 250 years old, which is a baby compared to over here. So there was a certain level of nervousness. But I think once I got here, I think I inherently have a way with sort of, I am two cultures. I am one, I'm basically the United Nations, but I have an indigenous part of it.

13:40But, yeah, I think I have a built-in empathy for a culture that isn't properly mine. And because I know what it sort of feels like to sort of be of a different culture and then integrate into different ways. So I also have a deep fascination of different cultures. So, you know, my team is, I love them all. They're amazing, but the nuances of speaking to an Italian team compared to a French team, compared to a Swiss team. And I think we have a habit of sort of doing a stereotype around different cultures and things like that. But I think the nuances, and I guess what we're doing, you know, we're designing.

14:25So we've all got a passion for a certain thing, but it manifests itself in a different way just because of how people articulate what it is. their lived experiences, their cultures. And I mean, I find that probably one of the most exciting things about my job is to understand the perspective of a different culture, which I think is so interesting in this kind of very, I guess, insular looking world sometimes, is that it's so nice to see the diverse perspective. I do find that with any like almost like the unifying point from anybody that's like done a big move like overseas or anything even if it's not distancedly that far but like had to move to Italy like in Pennsylvania and that's not that far but still a huge cultural change I feel like that one unifying thing is like having broken your safe um bubble if that's a word and then going into this completely new like environment having to learn everything and it being so different in one way or another to what you pictured and expected and yeah that one thing oh my goodness like you've done that move and like how did you find this and it's a kind of the unifying point is very interesting.

15:50Like regardless of the culture, there's always that level, that levelling. Yes. Yes. And it's really interesting because I hear a lot of Kiwis in London. There are a lot of Australians in London. And, you know, I get a lot of comments that, oh, you all kind of moved to Clapham. And I have to say, I probably encountered as many Kiwis as I thought, But I think it's because I operate in a more European environment than a London environment. And because I was an Amsterdam and things like that, the expat idea is really interesting. And being an expat in a city like Amsterdam, my friends are Chilean, my friends are Swedish.

16:41They're from a Polish, from completely different places anyway. And it's interesting that the community that gets formed around that. And so, again, it's sort of embracing a multicultural kind of idea in a place that isn't anyone's. And that's what's so interesting. Yeah, so I think because I'm used to being not the other culture or being kind of, you know, there's an identification in my culture and what I do. So, you know, and there's always that strive for people to understand where I'm coming from. I think I have, I guess, a switched-on empathy to that from others, which makes it really interesting when you get expats in a completely different place and what that looks like.

17:34But, yeah, it's a really fun thing to do. Oh, it is. Talking to someone who's made a great statement, I love this, once you've done a move like that, everywhere is home, but nowhere is home. Yes. Because suddenly, like, the whole world, like you could live anywhere sort of thing and then I put then suddenly that nowhere's home because you haven't got that like grounded safe bubble anymore because you kind of left it so it's like it was a really it was a really eye-opening it was a really well put message because I do understand up through my personal like journey like what it's in yeah some in some extent what it was like and so yeah I did pretty sort of everywhere's home nowhere's home yeah and I think it's a really, New Zealand is a very, like we love our country.

18:28There is some, you know, real loyalty. And I've had to speak to my friend, she was the CEO of Unispace in America, and she's a Kiwi and, you know, a great friend of mine. But she was always, she said, you know, since moving to New York, she's never been more loyal. in New Zealand, like every, she's got Deadly Pony, you know, all of the brands and things like that, she's like I've just got, she's inherently got this kind of real um sort of, yeah New Zealand is the best, this inbuilt, you know, she's a big All Blacks fan so, you know, when they play in Amir Akarosa, she's there like there's this, this is kind of really yeah, it got to the point, it's just like, I'm obsessed now.

19:19And I have that to an extent too, as a not a rugby fan, which makes me a very bad New Zealander.

19:31It's usually the first question I get asked when I'm in Europe is, are all blacks? And I'm like, uh-huh. That's a German joke, isn't it? I know, which I, yeah. It's actually for English people. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, I've probably been to more rugby games over here than I have in New Zealand. So this is exactly kind of, you know, you have a much more I guess when you're in New Zealand, it's like, yeah, everything, and I guess you take it for granted. But the more I'm not there, the more I kind of say. What's one thing you're bringing from there to Europe?

20:10Very controversial. Cool. But third. I don't hear as controversial. I think whenever I talk to somebody from overseas, it's literally people and food. Yeah, sometimes weather, but actually people, it's more food and pets. Yeah, it's so interesting because, again, in New Zealand we have a preconceived idea that everything in Europe is like, ah, the food, all of these kinds of things. But the more I've realised is that New Zealanders travel a lot. They spend a lot of time overseas and then they come home, but they come home and bring the best bits. And that's what I find kind of interesting is my standard, well, I guess the kind of standard restaurant Italian is.

20:59In England. No, well, in New Zealand. It's amazing. And it's a combination of, you know, it's a very, you know, it's easy to grow things in that country. the produce and all of those things are amazing but it's from a memory of someone who's gone overseas and come and gone I had the best thing I ever had in Tuscany and that's what it is or I had the best kind of whatever I did in France but it's the same as Thai and all of these people who go away and come back and they take the best of what they had in that place and bring it back to New Zealand which is a really interesting. I think it's a New Zealand type thing and probably Australian as well, just about the amount we travel.

21:49And I think that also shapes the perception of New Zealanders off overseas as well. It's like people haven't traveled yet, but people bring back and they bring back the stories and they've seen amazing things and that sort of thing. It shapes an impression, I think, that New Zealanders have both the rest of the world. And when we get here, It's not like it's disappointing. It's just not all that. And that's the thing because it is, I think, you know, when you're cherry-picking the top of the bunch and you get all of this content, you get all of this sort of things, you kind of just assume that that's it.

22:27And I remember, you know, in magazines, when you get in architecture magazines, I think I remember seeing something from John Paulson in an architecture magazine. I was like, you know, like amazing services. Like it's just like pristine, beautiful, yeah, minimalist type interiors. And then I went and saw it and it wasn't that. It was one room and the rest had, you know, you saw sprinklers and you saw all these sorts of things. And I was like, oh, huh. So the filtered view that New Zealanders get of the world is, and I'm sure it's in other countries as well, but this is kind of my perception. From an Atlantic experience.

23:05Yeah, it is that everything is, you know, you get that Instagram viewer of everything and it's always just pristine and it's only, people only take, but people only take photos of the best birds. And there's difference for going on holiday to living somewhere. Definitely. So if you've travelled to like Italy or whatever and they come back and bought the best birds, you might have travelled. Well, because you're only hitting the good bit, you know, like, I need to go to, you know, the Vatican, I need to go all these places, but it's the in-between that's the. I mean, and that's the bit I find is the bit most interesting, I think.

23:39I think that whole, yeah, it is the day-to-day. It's in between. You get very polarised views of anywhere. Like, either it's absolutely amazing because they just do nothing all day and, like, just have fun, or they're literally living in mud huts. So, quite, actually, there's a completely middle road, which is, like, 90 % of the day. In fact, do you know what I mean? Yeah, and that's the thing. It's like the Pacific Island area. It's, like, there's resorts. and then there's villages. And then it's just like people go to those Pacific Islands and they never see a village. And that's like, I did it at university.

24:16When I was studying architecture, we went to Samoa. And basically, you know, everyone's like, yeah, that bridge of a island. But we went and measured a church that had got damaged and a cyclone and things like that. So basically we were in it. Like we were in with, you know, in this village called Manasi and we were measuring in church and it was sort of, it was a much more community experience but everyone I talked to about Samoa said to be, you know, going or before was all about, oh yeah, there's great beaches and this resort and all of these sorts of things and it's an interesting thing to see the way people who live there live rather than this kind of false resort kind of idea.

25:00So it's so interesting, isn't it? But you did mention quite you touched quite a lot of the anniversary culture and the rituals. Do you feel like you've picked up those kind of rituals, routines in your day-to-day, like from that heritage? I think, in a way, I think the philosophies about, you know, hospitality and guardianship of the environment and all of those things, that sort of sit inherently in, I guess, who I am or my understanding of kind of that community viewpoint. I think some of those rituals are definitely there, ingrained. It's like, yeah, it's funny to think about, actually, because I think there's some things that I don't really think about.

25:51Would you say you're quite a structured person? Oh, Greek, it's infinite. Well, it's... Paeos. I think I am a very structured person. I like routine. I kind of have a very, I mean, a part of kind of who I am is I am quite, you know, I have like suffered from kind of anxiety disorders and things like that. And a part of that kind of cognitive therapy type of way of doing it is routine. so I mean I have the most and from the outside people are like how do you know what you're doing you're in Zurich one day you're in New York the other all of these kinds of things but there's certain rituals within kind of those in-betweens that actually kind of enable that to happen which I think I applied a lot to my life and I think you know I did art and I was creative and all of these sorts of things but I kind of needed a backbone and that's you know behind that creativity a way of sort of structuring it.

26:57I guess channel and compartmentalize what I do and all of these sorts of things. Architecture is a very good version of that. It's like you have to be thinking about how you build something, but you really want to push the boundaries in terms of creativity. So it's an interesting kind of profession to have and it's an interesting profession to lead. is, you know, people who can be at any level of that spectrum. It could be very technical and talking about buildability and things like that. And then you've got people who are very creative and very, like, prefer not to even think about that part of it.

27:40Whereas I think I sit pretty squarely in the middle and kind of a part of my routine is sort of, you know, helping people either end get to, you know, like you know taking that burden of creativity away from the very technical mind and the and the burden of kind of technical and structure away from the creativity sort of get the best risk try get the best results yeah would you say it almost like would you say that like that route in that structure almost like quite logical mindset i so straight away starts thinking like accountants and yes that's not creative at all would you say that that kind of kills creativity or actually in your case is like enabling it?

28:21I think it enables it. It's like the idea, the ability to sort of, I mean, I structure my personal creativity in a way. It's like, you know, I go, it's almost a step-by-step thing. And it's a classic kind of exploration, bring it back to, you know, but by having that, you know, you've got a certain time. and I time limit things. But this is, I think, the commercialisation of creativity. And I hate that experience. I hate that. But that's essentially what it is. Architecture is that you can't just keep going without an output or without a result at the end of it. And that's sort of the trick. it's behind the whole thing you're right so when you're designing workspaces is that more of a science view like a psychology is it always more of like a good taste and put colours and textures together oh I think it's a complete combination of it all but I think I mean for me and that's why I enjoy kind of this thinking about how people work and how they do their daily tasks and things like that is about the psychology.

29:48It's about the, and for me, because of where I come from and kind of how ingrained a culture is, and it's about the sociology. It's about kind of, you know, understanding a culture is really interesting. And, I mean, particularly now, you're kind of smashing a lot of cultures together in one place, in a workplace, to be, you know, and to be able to kind of decipher from an individual point of view and from a collective point of view of what this, I mean, no space behaves like a workplace. It's really the length of time that people spend in it. The goal to, I guess, be productive in a space, in a space that can influence that productivity, is such an interesting kind of concept.

30:36It's like, what is the best environment for people to thrive and not just in their work I hate the word productivity thriving is about kind of enjoying, it's about wellness it's about you know but the output is something that is excellent and has done well and I think everyone's looking for that at the end of the day and in terms of what they do. What's a funny thing I always find with workplace is people say you get that, they usually work and you and more time with your colleagues than you do with your family. And all of that's true. But you actually go through quite a lot of, like, challenges, for good and bad.

31:22And, like, you've got to work through stuff with people that you don't really know. Their background could be anything. Actually, it's a melty part for, like, fireworks in a sense. Absolutely. In that sense, it's very, yeah, you're very high pressure. It has different cultures, different cultures, different neurodiverse elements to it. There's just physical elements to it. So it's really interesting to create a space that caters for so much of a diverse thought or just people in general. and trying to kind of move it all late, kind of capture that single purpose. Because that's what a company really is, is a company has a strategy and a philosophy and all of that sort of thing.

32:20And the workplace is an enabler to have everyone buy into that. And that's the thing. And also, it changes all the time. The cultural makeup changes all the time. the ebbs and flows of the people in a business and how an environment kind of reacts to that. I think, yeah, obviously COVID was a big kind of like, well, what's happening here? And it was a pivot point. But the reality is, I mean, we're doing our latest global study now and it's coming out that basically everyone still wants the same thing that they wanted pre-COVID. So the reality is if we, well, they want environments that kind of suit the work that they're doing.