Better questions = Better Builds with Georgia Jackson

0:00Georgia Jackson:There's always something to be challenges no matter where you are, no matter where you're working. Challenges can always be overcome through communication. Weakness comes from acknowledging where you're maybe lacking or where you need to improve. But often or not, if I don't know something, I will not only go up to your desk and ask you, but I will make sure I've got the time to help others if they come to me as well. Hey, so before we jump in, I want to say a massive thank you because Space by Stencers has hit the top 25 design shows in the uk and that's a really i mean obviously we're so grateful to our guests they are absolutely amazing and all of you the audience tuning in sharing following all your engagement on socials absolutely like we're blown away so grateful so we've done something special we have launched show notes and you can go on to stansons.co.uk forward slash space and sign up for show notes where you get a cool little email in your inbox every week just tipping you off on the person that we've spoken to and like key highlights of what they've said some like key headline things just to make quick simple scroll read on your commute on the train so that's stansons.co.uk forward slash space and we want to bring the community on and signing up for our show notes so we'll see you there and now let's get into the conversation hi welcome to another episode of space by stansons i'm with georgia jackson estimator at cast interiors and it's wicked we're talking about the engine of the company we're talking about the work course i'm taking that inspiration now um that whole like in the trenches bit so often as you know talk to designers But I really want to get into the trenches, find out what's happening, how the projects are working, that sort of thing.

1:47So let's see what we pick up. And welcome, Georgia.

1:50Georgia Jackson:Thank you. Thanks for having me. No, you're very well. Thank you for coming, taking the time out. Anytime. You're not an average estimator, are you? No. The picture I have of an estimator isn't sexiest and demographicist and all that crap. bar. I've been told that ever since starting in the construction industry that my personality has deviated from that of a standard estimator. I've got a bit more of a bubbly personality. I'm more willing to talk to people, make phone calls, get stuck in, and my personality might be suited more to a BD or someone that has a lot more interaction with clients and client-facing.

2:28Georgia Jackson:Yeah. But coming into estimating was not necessarily a choice. And it's not necessarily something that I thought I'd be in today. Okay. Okay. That's the story we're going to. What's the story? So I started off in construction when I was 17, 18, working for my father. Dad owns a residential building company back home in Sydney and working for your father sometimes is by choice. But for me, it was more of a passion to see what dad does and get on jog sites with him. And for me, it was quite a nurturing way to get onto a construction site. Being a female in the industry can be quite daunting. But instead, Dad kind of took me under his wing and anything went with Dad, you know, between helping in sheet plasterboard in bathrooms, kitchens, to renovations, building decks and begoalers, and some days just literally doing, as I was told, grabbing tools to Dad or helping him out of a kitchen or a bathroom.

3:21Georgia Jackson:It was a very hands-on approach. You're quite a tomboy. A little bit in a cool way, but I don't think I would have had that same foundation in construction if it wasn't for dad yeah because in my family we always joke there is no one that believes more in a female than a dad who needs some help i like that yeah yeah i can see that all you all girls i'm one of three yeah three girls so poor dad i think he really wanted a son but he was blessed with three girls instead so i think he just adapted to the situation yeah and the cards that he felt yeah just like fitted you into the sun role yeah yeah basically At one point, all of us, all three of us, my sisters and I, all of us were working in construction, and it was probably the proudest moment of my father's life, an acknowledgement and acceptance that he didn't probably need a son for us to follow in his footsteps.

4:11Georgia Jackson:So I think he was, and he still is, quite proud of us. Yeah, I was going to say, what's he saying today? I think he's quite proud of us. You know, sometimes men aren't as vocal or expressive in their words, but no, daddy's very proud of us, and it's how we've all followed in his footsteps. Yeah. And then how did you come over here then? London was a choice that I made. I think it took a few years and it was always playing the back of my mind. I've got my Italian passport, mom's Italian. So Europe was always, you know, naturally we were drawn to Europe. After I finished working with dad, I started my apprenticeship.

4:48Georgia Jackson:We call it cadetship back home in Sydney, working for a commercial company. And I really learned a lot there. The company helped to facilitate my career, teach me about constructions and methods of estimating. But there is a funny story about that. I didn't start working for the company thinking that I'd become an estimator. Everyone kind of does the construction degree at university and has this goal to become a project manager. And a project manager back home is slightly different to a project manager here. More senior? Not necessarily more senior, but a project manager isn't kind of on the tools in terms of on-site.

5:24Georgia Jackson:A project manager back home, they write the methodology, write the program, they manage costs, and are assisted on-site by a site manager. So the terminology is slightly different and the roles are slightly different. Like everyone else, I got into the construction degree. Dad encouraged me to get into university, do the construction degree. And I had that same goal and aspiration to be a project manager one day. But turns out I was not enjoying the commercial sides of it in terms of managing trades on site, managing a live environment. It didn't kind of gel to my liking. And we do joke about it, but the MD, the company that I work for back home said, how about you try estimating?

6:03Georgia Jackson:And at the time, I had this stereotypical association of estimating as boring job, that you use a calculator and you crunch numbers. And it's a job that no one typically wants to enter into construction for. But ever since then, I've fallen in love with the role what's different about it to what you expected I think I really enjoy the adaptability of the projects that you have and the quick turnaround as well what I might price in say four to six weeks the guys on site have to deliver in say four to six months so you get that continuous flow of work and exposure to different types of projects quickly so it's not that same because I do agree I have that sort of excel spreadsheet quite a sort of like monotonous like boring geeky role if you know what I mean in our heads but you'll see it it's more people than that or is what how's it more people I have different relationships I think with the supply chain as well because I take their numbers for face value I also really enjoy working collaboratively with the pre-construction team but that goes beyond the pre-construction director a TSN a design manager and trying to build the cost all in our heads before it's delivered on site so there's a bit of creativity in it and you have to be able to understand the process of what happens first you have to demo the side and then start building up from there or in your head before I think visually seeing it on site I think everyone associates and estimators they stick in their lane and they have to calculate the costs and pull all the costs together but it goes beyond that and it does transcend that role I have to work closely with the pre-construction director who's probably throwing together the construction program and ensure my costs align with his assumed time on side.

7:49Georgia Jackson:I also have to then work closely with a TSM who has a lot more services knowledge than myself and I can always acknowledge other people's strengths and weaknesses including my own. So sitting with a TSM understanding the services how the services are built because sometimes looking at them on a two-day piece of paper is quite mind-boggling. Yeah I bet. And then on top of that pulling it together with the design manager or interior designer they've either design the project from a d &b world or they're helping me understand the buildability through the design lens and can the project be built the way it's drawn that you ever miss anything out from the 2d to actual so we always joke about this and i always press send on a tender hypothetically on a friday at 5 p.m and instantly as i press sent my brain starts to go into overdrive what have i missed have i got that did i exclude this and it is a joke as an estimator as what have you missed.

8:43Because there's always something you need.

8:44Georgia Jackson:There's always going to be something. And no matter how high I try to read specs, capture costs, call subcontractors, collate costs, there's always going to be something. But the aim of the game, I guess, is to always to memize and mitigate as much as you can, whether that's putting clarifications in to protect yourselves and the company, reading docs and scope, but also working collaboratively with the supply chain so that we're all on the same page. But yes, there has never been a tender and negotiated job where I haven't missed something. But I will evidently never make the same mistake twice.

9:17Okay, so process of elimination is happening.

9:19Georgia Jackson:And learning, you know, I think that comes with experience, you know, with different types of projects, different types of, you know, jobs out there. I generally try never to make the same mistake twice because you learn from that. You learn from the mistakes or you learn from how a job has gone well, but also even more so when a job's gone less successfully. Yeah, I mean, that's the same for everyone, isn't it? It's like even companies or anything like that. Sometimes when you get a negative review on a project or a product or something like that, then actually how you respond to that is more important than the actual thing in the first place.

9:50We are all human.

9:51Georgia Jackson:We are all human. And I do believe that humans do make mistakes, but humans can do wonderful things as well. like estimators who make mistakes we also can make mistakes when it comes to trying to get the cost to where you want it to be but sometimes spending a little bit more up front will help save money in the future it's a bit of a balancing act between understanding clients budgets needs and constraints but also understanding the functionality of the space the office space they're moving into and will this last the next five years yeah that you plan to be in here for how do you get that across them you just meet them you explain that like communication is very important um but not just communicating your wants and needs but also listening to the client's needs and sometimes you're not going to get it right the first go um often clients come to us the negotiated projects and our initial cost plan from a cost perspective far exceeds their budget okay and then you have to start to revise the cost plan revise the design scale back where you can to try and find a balance between their cost expectations and the fit out that they want to walk into one day.

11:00So what can clients do to help you deliver on time and on budget?

11:04Georgia Jackson:I think honesty and open, transparent communication is very important from the get-go. If they have a certain budget, let us know. We can then build to that budget and ensure that you're getting best value for money. But also understanding their wants and needs from site. Is a 12-person meeting room important? do you value more open spaces breakout spaces flexible workstations understanding the priorities and focusing on those and then finishing off with nice to haves so is that generally thrashed out in strategy though with design strategy side i don't think you can have a design without understanding the cost and sometimes designers go on a lovely tangent of beautiful finishes beautiful end products without having an understanding of the cost to do so so it's that kind of blended yeah and often i don't understand as well the design in terms of the finishes it must look fantastic and that's great and often it does look fantastic but i often look at the design and hear cha-ching cha-ching and it's true and i do it every day of my life whether i'm walking into a restaurant and whether i'm walking past a construction site you start to see as an estimator the world around you based on cost and i think designers have that beautiful design mindset which is fantastic i'm so envious of that what can suppliers like us do to help you out it's important for suppliers also to be transparent whether it be cost sheets understanding rates as well um often suppliers price things a bit differently to an estimate in the bit out world where it comes to material supply and install rates as well whereas often i will see things as an all-encompassing square meter rate or lump sum rate which is a build-up of that so i think suppliers can definitely help the industry by providing whether it be cost sheets rate sheets you know of course cost can support because a lot of our stuff isn't actually like a linear meterage rate i'm thinking stansons personally like acoustics and curtains like quite a lot it's like per pack or per per panel or but you would prefer just to see it as a square meter rate sometimes it depends because that's how i've traditionally been taught to price however i have seen in more recent times and especially since moving to the uk suppliers of fabric panels and curtains they don't price per linear meter or per square meter is per panel and for me it's shifting my train of thought and understanding well why do they price like that and it makes more sense at the panel you have to buy a panel say a 1200 by 1200 panel and you may have to cut that and the leftover has to go into waste so i'm having more of an appreciation for how subcontractors and suppliers, but it's a bit different from me to the commercial fit out world.

13:45Yeah, that's interesting. And jumping into a different topic, how do you see the industry changing over the next year or five?

13:52Georgia Jackson:Next year or five is a massive, it will be a massive change between now and then. But I do suspect that the industry will change in a few ways. First and foremost, maybe with the implementation and introduction of AI. Our world is so technology heavy and technology based. I'll be very interested to see how AI can integrate not just with the construction industry, but how it can support my role. AI is, of course, computer-based, and I don't think it will ever take away the human aspect of an estimator. But I would love to see how AI can support my role, whether that be assessing quotes or scanning documents, helping with definitions or pulling together a bit of a check, or even the database between, say, benchmarking the last, say, 10, 2010 days, location, costs, and scope, and pooling similarities that I can use and benchmark on the next project.

14:44Quick breather. Are you enjoying the chit chat? We are really passionate about highlighting the voice of designers and workplace managers. You can help more people and more designers like you by subscribing to the show so we'll carry on doing our bit and you do yours and we'll make this show seriously seriously great and obviously don't forget to subscribe to show notes on stansons.co.uk forward slash space let's keep chatting yeah i can see it changing i don't think it will necessarily change how we think it might change i think it will have a huge impact Like, obviously, I'm like Google versus Yellow Pages sort of days.

15:25Like, I get it, but I don't think it will necessarily change how we expect because I think there's something about the human intervention and how we think. Whether we even aren't creative people, we still think quite laterally. You can apply situational and project credits and things. I just feel that humans can do that in a way where AI can be very intelligent, but it's kind of almost one angle.

15:52Georgia Jackson:It is and the human aspect of AI will never come to fruition personally because it would defeat the purpose of being a human and defeat the person of AI. If you think about the construction industry the only consistent element that surpassed time is how we have built buildings. If you think about laying bricks or you know pouring concrete that has not changed fundamentally for many many many years and I can't imagine that changing in the years to come however what I do imagine with that is the product or the materials will improve to either create more sustainable buildings you know more durable buildings and buildings that will be a bit more sound moving forward but I think the process of pouring concrete as a very mundane example hasn't really changed but the processes that support that will yeah no that makes sense what one do you think what's the biggest change it will create I actually think the biggest change that we'll see maybe more so in the UK in the years to come and whether it be in one year or five years and this is tapping into my Australian background is the implementation from a sustainability perspective as well.

17:00Georgia Jackson:I know we've got Breanne and we've got all these different sustainability certifications is maybe a good word and even more recently I've seen Neighbours come into play in the UK. What's Neighbours? Neighbours is an Australian in a sustainability organization which helps to maintain sustainability of the building yeah okay so similar to bream similar to bream there's many crossovers but i've only recently come across it however there is a website you can go on to type in any building in london especially and the number of neighbors buildings is becoming more prevalent i'm working on a job at the minute and there is a it is a neighbor's building uh with a neighbor's rating of five and essentially neighbors taps into energy consumption, water consumption, and it's a commitment of the building to maintain or prevent maybe excessive consumption so that we're not necessarily having an impact as much on the environment.

17:57Georgia Jackson:That's cool. It is. And in a vacuum of Sydney, I think every other job had a neighbor's rating to it and you have to engage a consultant and have some feedback, have a neighbor's review and ensure that the fit-out works you were doing weren't necessarily going to have an impact on the on the building itself and it's a bit of a commitment i think so i think in the years to come as well sustainability will play a massive role or a bigger role than what it is now in the industry yeah yeah it's interesting to see new certifications coming we've got like we've got kind of so many for starters i guess but then more holistic ones like that how that sounds in terms of it covering more than just the build but it's almost like the livingness how the building lives yeah yeah livingness was not a great way and construction itself has such a massive impact on the environment between fit outs that are built construction buildings that are built and then a few years later you either look at out strip out and all of that excess goes to landfill but something that i have been a little bit more involved in here in the uk compared to back home is the implementation and encouragement of reuse materials whether it be reusing glazing petition from one project dismantling it and taking it down reinstalling elsewhere or reusing ceiling tiles reusing floor finishes you've had this you've had this actually happening we're doing it right now and we've done a cost exercise recently where the reuse of glaze petitions sometimes it's cost neutral however the impact it can have from a carbon you know perspective is it outweighs the cost itself i'm seeing a lot more clients willing to engage in sustainable products whether it be not necessarily to tick a green box because they are passionate and it comes down to the core values of the companies themselves.

19:40So people are taking glass petitions out of one building, storing it somewhere?

19:46Georgia Jackson:Storing it, transporting it, delivering it to site, installing it. Spraying it or whatever needs to be done. Yeah, and installing it, and you couldn't tell the difference. So where is it stored? Sometimes it'll have to come down from the site, chuck it straight into a pallet or a van and take it straight to site. So it's not necessarily stored. or can be stored in a warehouse if it's not used. But if we source a project or have a project where there's some glazed partition, we can take it down and transport it straight to side. Because I think those sort of things are genius. They're really, really, if they're cost neutral, then, or if they're a saving, then even better.

20:21But the problem I can see with it is when you take something away, does it just become a junkyard? Like where is it stored? How do you track that infantry? how do you then procure it if someone else has a project that do you know i mean the whole logistics

20:37Georgia Jackson:of it i guess is a bit of a mind yeah companies do that in-house so sometimes you can get material index or an audit of the site and list it all out and we do it internally where i'm working now and it's so interesting to see that and very true as well you might have a fit out that has a thousand square feet of carpet tiles and someone has to quantify that calculate that and very quickly it can get snapped up it can yeah oh my goodness yeah whether it be other projects or donation for site it's very interesting and for me good yeah by not adding to landfill you're giving it a purpose elsewhere but quite a meaningful purpose not just a try hard yeah meaningful purpose and often some of the products that do come out from in the demolition of the strip out phase and when they are reinstalled to the naked eye you would never know between new or reuse no because the things can be in for a relatively short period of time yeah we are seeing fit outs that are built and then three four five years later are being stripped out or even day one of moving in they're being mortified and stripped out to soothe the new incoming tent and it is a constant changing cycle of the one space and i think if you stripped out your personal property once every three to five years and started again like a lot of landfill but also a lot of cost oh totally but because it's commercial it's sort of yeah and i think in our society we do throw things away without knowing where it goes because out of sight out of mind that could go you know everyday life in your kitchen your home your office as well then to that of demolition and sort of out of fit spaces i know what that's like put something to wheel you in and forget about it yeah it does worry about it it does exist somewhere so reducing that i think will be very important moving forward i'm really glad to hear like it's happening how it's happening and that could even scale doesn't have to yeah stop there do you know i mean watch this face watch this space what is one of the um challenges that are in construction that you face in uk which you didn't expect to face there's always going to be challenges no matter where you are no matter where you're working but I think challenges for me come necessarily from new scope a challenge might be I've never priced a certain element I've never engaged with a certain subcontractor but challenges can always become through communication and collaboratively working together people think as an estimator we know all the answers we know all the costs and it's not necessarily that i don't because i have a plethora of knowledge in my brain but it's always a challenge of being cost certain as well and if i am not cost certain or how can i get an answer whether it's calling a subcontractor or a supplier what's the cost for this i'm not knowing scope is pulling the relevant team members together and asking them for help and i think in the construction industry people are often a bit more reluctant to help or reluctant to sorry to ask for help because seen as weakness seen as weakness uh or you're seen as not maybe as knowledgeable or skilled as what you should be and i think weakness comes from acknowledging where you're maybe lacking or where you need to improve um but often or not with my personality if i don't know something i will not only go up to your desk and ask you but i will make sure i've got the time to help others if they come to me as well yeah i i like that that's a really good answer in the sense that we can make construction a better place by just being more open less judgment easier to ask questions i do agree because you go out to site and i'm like i'm sorry i'm so thick and i'm quite embarrassed i don't know what to say or see people use an abbreviation to me what does that mean don't know and i think there's knowledge in not knowing but also knowledge in asking for something to tell you about it because you'll learn about that and you can apply that onto the next project, the next tender, the next job that you do.

24:45And then you can share that on again and it keeps going.

24:49Georgia Jackson:Yeah, and you build on this lessons learned, how can I then apply my lessons? Because a lesson is only learned if you then apply that moving forward. Yeah. And I've definitely learned some lessons moving here. It's amazing. It's great. It's amazing to share what we've picked up in terms of where the industry is going, what we can learn and value engineering a whole approach to that i mean it's thank you so much for sharing it georgia it's absolutely brilliant i've got one last question for you what music do you listen to when you're focusing oh this is a very very controversial one because back to the estimator um yes and estimator as we know we like to work very independently and yeah i'd say no because then my day has my noise cancelling headphones in uh and i do like this is going to be very, very off piece here.

25:38Georgia Jackson:Some like, you know, best of death row records, some sort of heavy rap. Yeah. Very, very controversial, but the beat helps, you know, to get into the zone type of way, but also a bit of house music without the words, because sometimes words can be very distracting, but I will listen to music doing any task in the office. I can read in any piece spec. I can, you know, draw some drawings. I can set up meetings. And if I'm listening to music without the words, it does help to kind of get you in the zone, but then not take away from the distraction of the words themselves and rather than focusing on the words you focus on the beat and you're focusing on typing away i'm house music but house music yeah but noise cancelling often i get a bit of a fright when someone comes up to my desk and because my long brown hair my headphones do tend to hide yeah um so sometimes i i shock myself when people hello yeah sorry i didn't mean to look so rude oh that's amazing thank you so much for coming on Georgia and sharing all of that.

26:32Absolutely blast. Thank you everyone for tuning in. There we go. That's the side of a building from In the Trenches with Georgia Jackson cast. Don't forget to like, subscribe. Algorithm will do its thing and we'll get more great guests like Georgia on. Thank you.

26:47Georgia Jackson:Bye.