Built for Movement: Inside Sweaty Betty’s New Flexible HQ with Craig White

0:00And many people like to use space differently, like the employees, some might just like their fixed desk. Other employees would like to have more flexibility. And I think that's the way that brands and businesses are hearing their employees, hearing how the business can work more efficiently and better and get better results out of their employees. And that was a big consideration here. So thank you. Another episode of Space by Stansons. This one I've actually wanted to capture for quite a while because we're at Sweaty Betty's head office in Kings Cross. And you can't see it. It's like all over there.

0:30It's absolutely stunning. So if you're watching on, if you're listening on Spotify or Apple, you can watch on YouTube as well. Follow along and see the spaces. brand all about empowering women um in fitness and beyond the owners a female it's female-led brand so it's just like it's just one of those really like lovely brands into fitness industry everyone has heard of them i guess so um it's nice to actually get in behind the scenes and see what's done but i'm with craig white from whitroom agency who's actually the brand they come from a retail background and they have that like retail experience retail-esque feel to their designs and they've brought it to the office which is what everyone's talking about nowadays like how an office doesn't feel like an office which is exactly what sweaty betty were looking for and they've absolutely blown this out of the water mixology finalists so here we are king's cross right and it's beautiful weather so welcome page uh thank you guy yeah it's good to be here and it's good to be talking about uh this incredible space as you say yeah it was a fantastic project to work on uh for the whole team in the agency from start to finish uh like you identified uh the business the brand itself is growing it's about empowering women for us it was about um taking that and creating a space that would allow them to be more productive where they were in their previous office space but future-proof them allow it to grow uh and just yeah promote collaboration creativity um and passion yeah passion for the brand yeah but um back to white room because i mean i love your brand when i first um when i first picked up about this project and you first started back into us i was like oh i haven't heard of wolverine before let's have a google and i started my whole like sort of charlotte holmes like inspector gadget stuff and digging in and yeah you've got like a really nice like kind of experiential like led to all your work so it's true tell us about how that all started yeah super true yeah there's a real thread of experience through our agency um and our journey from when we started 20 years ago to where we are today uh and it's been one that we've sort of carved out ourselves and trying to be unique um trying to you know we've got really good retention with our clients we're really proud of that um but yeah taking it from our early days when we started out uh we were very much around like activation working with brands you know international trade shows so some b2b some b2c um you know so we had a lot of learnings around like the product and understanding like the the brands uh what they're looking to achieve and grow um and widen their markets into different market.

3:15So we're getting international. But then a lot of the products and presentations and stories we were creating for them in those spaces really translated into retail. So we were then taking that and we were creating wholesale programs, rolling these out, creating flagship stores, working with these brands to elevate their story and their products. And in doing that, they were leaning into us more to create these experiences in their own spaces. So rather than all these like heavy costs, you know, uh, international shows are like, okay, how can we focus this? How can we bring this to our core, our, our hubs and create these experiences for, um, our networks and, and, and, and our, and our customers and invite them in like innovation centers, showrooms.

4:05So we started doing this whole work in that space. Um, and then following that, it's how that then transcends into a workspace. You know, the same principles, methodology around, you know, creating these engaging, productive spaces that really heighten, you know, the DNA and the tone of voice of the brand in these workspaces. So really trying to break away from the traditional workspace and create a much more brand presence and brand led is where we are now. and that's exactly what sweaty betty picked up on wasn't it that they didn't want just an office i think i saw like yeah it was more about yeah living their values but just really strong aren't they like throughout like we can see it on the walls you see it in their stores like i looked into sweaty basically quite a bit having not obviously been into a store before and when this came up and their values are really strong and they really come through don't they and like they obviously were wanting to see that again.

5:06It's a community. The brand is a community and they've got a really strong following and it's something that we needed to embrace in this space. You know, it's a unique rotunda with great aspects and natural light flooding in. But for them, it's about, you know, how can we empower the team? How can we bring those values of the brand in, not create isolated silos but a space where they can you know the finance can work with the created team and they can come together and everyone's seeing the different touch points of the business work they have their areas where they can get their head down but essentially there's there's all these different elements and zones that connect the business and the teams yeah what was their like key like objective or challenge that they were trying to solve when they came to you Yeah, fundamentally it was essentially that.

5:57It was like we've got this incredible team, like in their previous workspace, it was very disconnected. Okay, just because different levels? Yeah, different levels. They had like, they did have like, they were ticking boxes in regards to like, you know, pods and that kind of thing. But as there was no strategy, there was no like essence or heart in the workspace and that was missing. You know, the brand is growing, they you know they they're getting in you know new investment in new teams and they wanted to you know create what they have now um future brief it so they can grow and expand from it um but just have a space where like i said uh they can all come together they can all see the different touch points of the business working um and they've got a space um you know that is fluids they can move around easily they can everything's accessible you know even you know the the dirty the laundry the the you know the washing machines they're on they're on display and like you know there's washing machines over there is but they're high some really nice screens but like it comes out and it's all part you know it's literally a part of the workspace so people are like living and breathing every element of their process so from like design ideation to fabric development uh to you know shrink testing and color washing through to like the finance team like they're all living and breathing the brand and that was really really important for them that's nice also is see um like walking around this office we've we've left it as found so it's very lived in it's like a it's definitely a creative space it's like really beautiful creative element so when you see it have to be respectful of people's desks and things but it is a lived in office it's not like a photo shoot office which i liked i like just to lean into that and embrace that because you can see how it's really being used which is nice which is very cool but it also landed around like shortly after covid it did yeah it was when the briefs like started to come through when when was that how did that like line up yep um so part this building we're working on on another project uh for the wolverine group uh which uh was with Sockney and Meryl Footwear and Caterpillar.

8:13So we were doing their main office over that period, looking at two different buildings and this one came up on top, two different design variations. So this was the right one for them. So we did that. In that time, Wolverine acquired Sweaty Betty under their umbrella. So they wanted to bring them in as part of their wider business. However, unlike the way the Merrill and Sockany and Caterpillar all coexist in one space adjacent to this one, Sweaty Betty needed its own area where they could work as a core because it was new for them. Obviously, all of those other brands of footwear, this is apparel, this is a pleasure.

9:01And yeah, they just wanted that space dedicated to them to allow them to just to grow independently. It's also got quite a different looking feel, hasn't it? It has, yeah, which is really important and true, really important. So you've got that real sort of transition. Yeah. You've got the staff breakout sort of hospitality canteen area, which works for the whole business. But that acts as a really nice decompression area between the two sides of the businesses. And as you say, aesthetically, the Wolverine is a bit more sort of like has a darker tone and design language whereas sweaty betty uh has a much more elevated bright uh vibrant um empowering energizing uh design language that suits them suits their brand yeah you definitely see that more masculine energy yeah and then like that yeah like more industrial and you're coming into this sweaty betty and it's very like it's much more feminine it's much more gentle it's It's lovely.

10:00It's brilliant. You're tired to take some cues with that. I'm not trying to be too literate with the feminine aspect, but just bringing in that fluidity and what we call the curtain architecture. I'm so happy. You mentioned that before, curtain architecture. I'm like, I should TM that. You should. You can have that one for free. Thank you. Oh, it'll come on. It'll register trademark. I'll just, I'll, I'll, I'll tap it off for a few days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. But no, it was really important. It was a fantastic element that, uh, the design team, um, conceived at Y-Room is how the space could be used so it can flex in and out.

10:42And that was, you know, it's all part of the DNA of Sweaty Betty itself, movement and fluidity. So yeah, just bringing that into the space. So curtain architecture for us was really important because it allows the areas to open up, be multipurpose, you know, everything from fashion fit testing to breakout areas. Um, it, it just allows for, you know, softer use of materials rather than having hard surfaces everywhere. Um, which really plays into like the acoustic design control, even new diversity in terms of like, uh, how that's been more recognized in the workspace. It just, um, yeah, it creates, uh a method just to sort of screen off with ease and open up and just have everything yeah much more uh yeah useful yeah no it is nice and what did so did that because it was built like shortly after like the whole thing happened shortly after covid yes did anything change from like the start to the end like because of the impact of covid and how people thought that whole movement yeah it's a really good question um in truth that was a driving factor for the Wolverine space, uh, was around, um, you know, they're, they're a huge organization, I think with like 500 employees, but they needed a space that would probably only cater for 300.

11:57So it was about rotation. So it was about, uh, the different brands coming in, booking systems or online, uh, using the space much more as a, um, creative hub or business hub, uh, rather than a permanent fixed, you know, uh, office space. So yeah, that was a big driver, was reducing the footprint, but making it more of a space that would work harder for the business and create a better environment for the team. So that whole flexi working, work from home, when you come into the office, it's again more of an experience rather than just sat at your desk constantly. You know, there's integrated showrooms, it's sitting in the heart of the space in Wolverine.

12:41um again so you're always visibly connecting with the brand and it's almost a presentation of retail so they're really absorbing that constantly in its theaters and breakout they can do like the ted talks podcasts uh and you know that is the same here as well so again it's about access to the space um using the space when you need to use the space rather than always having to just be sat in the space yeah i have more movement i can you can definitely even see that here like how it's used can't do which is and many people like to use space differently right like you know the employees some might just like their fixed desk other employees would like to have more flexibility yeah and i think that's the way the brands and businesses are you know hearing their employees hearing how uh how the business can work more efficiently and better and get better results out of their employees and that was a big consideration here yeah how much do they expect them the teams to be in the office or do they have a i believe now uh no not too dissimilar to us uh primarily monday to thursdays with uh with a fixed sort of work from home on a friday but those mondays to thursdays for sweater betty are much more agile um i believe like you know department rotations you know whether they need to flex up on design because you know that's leading the business at a moment in time or then or you know it becomes much more um project delivery in terms of retail i believe they flex it up and around those yeah so it's quite loose in some ways yeah that's nice and now it's landed it's done we're back here again it's beautiful to see it in real was it have you had feedback or how's it been what have it had the objectives that they thought it was going to done more it's been too successful i need a bigger space No, seriously.

14:32So I think there's options in the not too distant future to expand over that side and really grow out the business. Particularly Sweaty Betty. Particularly Sweaty Betty, yeah. Because obviously I think this is more their sort of global HQ being a British brand, although they're growing in the American market quite quickly. But yeah, overall, it's been fantastic. I think like the team were only here probably two days ago discussing expansion models. And I believe there's a project coming through the studio in the next couple of weeks that are exploring how we can, yeah, just keep dialing up the workspace for them.

15:14I mean, that's like there's nothing that says it's working more than just like we're looking for more space. Yeah, yeah, quite. Yeah. It's great to see. And that's the point, right? You want them to create an environment that allows them to thrive and the business to do well. Oh, exactly. No, that's our objective. 100 % yes. That's the goal, isn't it? The ultimate reward for us. Yeah, me too, right. Well, thank you. What a brilliant introduction. Well, let's head around the space, see what we've got and what spaces we've created and what the thinking was behind them, how they're being used, any problems.

15:46Right? It's always good to see it. Well, Sweaty Betty, here we are going into the head office in King's Cross. Thanks, Craig, again. Pleasure. Empowering women through fitness and beyond. See how that comes to real life. I'm kicking off. We've got this archway, which is your favorite bit anyway, so we won't just walk through it. No, this is probably one of my design detail favorites. For me personally, I think it just really frames the space as you enter it. yeah coming from the wolverine uh into the staff area uh and then breaking in uh to sweaty betty it just very subtly and subconsciously sets the tone now for this face with all the uh fluid soft design details that we've walked through uh and just the way it sort of just steps in uh with a bit of a arc deco uh nod yeah yeah to me personally it's a really beautiful detail no it is very nice and like you say like the wolverine you can kind of see it behind us here it's got like kind of masculine and more in dark areas yeah it's incredibly beautiful it's quite warm um uh in the space it's um it's quite relaxing yeah and but then you come through to space being in it like it elevates the you know the light um and the forms yeah just you know just bring up the energy slightly yeah no i love the soft the soft start is perfect so here we are um wow it is it is truly like invigorating and you feel it in your energy can't you like oh like it's like it's uplifting it's uplifting yeah definitely so we've got here so these are what this is probably one of the only enclosed meeting office spaces in the workspace, mainly used for obviously private meetings, HR.

17:46But again, it was really important for us to bring in some of the design language. So you've got this beautiful critical effects screening with the soft curve. So again, it's about movement and just form again with the curtains as well. So it can be completely opened up you know you've got you feel like you're all connected so even though it is a private uh more serious space uh it's still very much part of the of the main floor yeah there's still yeah there's still the language flows through and then we come to here these pods you mentioned them before these are second live pods so these were it just so happened to be the perfect color or not quite uh so they were re uh sprayed and recolored um but uh they worked they worked for the team uh previously um so something that yeah we we were asked and brought through nice which we like we like the story of like you know second life is pointless like wasting um or just getting rid if there is a use oh definitely but it's nice how they've been like second life but reimagined it's blending so beautifully they don't look second life which is great it's great to see and then this here is essentially yeah so one of the biggest challenges for this was in the very center because this is a circular uh floor rotunda area uh in the middle here there is a big serviced duct so it's the very dirty side of the um of the office space so for us it's like okay how do we utilize this how do we do this in a way that um you know isn't more hard surfaces or exposing you know service access stores but still allowing access uh if required so again this is where the curtain architecture came in so we didn't want hard services we wanted to bring in material language material languages that were soft warm acoustically controlling but still was easy just to open up give them access to all the rails the grid panels so they can really just sort of rack out all their density of products so it is the sort of the ugly aspect if you like you know it's just loads of products but all these products are super important but the teams can pull them out they've got all their mood boards uh visual planning it's all really accessible with ease but can be beautifully screened off uh if needed and like you say if it was doors it'd feel a bit it becomes a bit heavy and then the acoustics and you know for the members of the team and the staff that sat on the end of the runs uh the desk runs you know having those softer material languages it's it's a very small detail but it's a really important one.

20:38It just makes the space feel warmer, more relaxing to work in, rather than just having hard, harsh surfaces everywhere. No, I can totally, totally see that. And it's also, also like kind of opens up more than a door. Exactly, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if all the curtains will pull back, the space just completely opens up. And then this space here, is this a yeah this is like big planning the heart of the team you know they've got the different uh desk runs either side so again they can all pull together come together um they can have obviously meetings uh they've got all their product runs out so they can yeah really deep dive into any aspect that they're working on at that time no it's not it's it's really it's really nice like the touch of color because it brings you to this like focal point but yes the space as you can tell is like very neutral very soft and then you kind of got this yeah central like kind of spine a little bit that was really important for us because we didn't want to over design in terms of the color palette uh keeping it on brand but very focused like you say um so it really does And, you know, almost the color itself zones the space rather than trying to put it everywhere.

22:03And where did the choice of color come from? That wasn't for me. It was very much a team process led by the brand. So it is, again, those softer tones that were coming through from the brow. I think obviously the brand heritage color is that sort of vivid orange, almost red. So it's just bringing that in, but not overusing it, because that can be quite a powerful, overpowering color. So yeah, just very softly done here with some softer tones around. Yeah, no, it does definitely nod to that really vivid color, but in a more gentle way. yeah i can remember when the team reached out to us and i saw the visuals i was like oh my god it's like literally like our brand palette i have to do this project but no it's nice and these elements are yeah it's again again layers is all those softer materials again aligning with the same principles of the curtains and how they can completely open up or close off yeah these are no different uh so with our partners at senator this is a particular product that they've got where you can screen down.

23:16So if you want to focus a bit more on your own work, you can. Or if you just want to pull it up, you can do that as well. So if you want to have those team chats or engagements across the table, you can. Yeah, it's just like a less rigid than a normal way of doing it somehow. Yeah, that was really important for us. Yeah. So what challenges did they have in this space? What were you struggling with that you had to kind of overcome or was it always plain sailing? No, this is why we love what we do because like design for us is solving problems. And I'd say one of the challenges is probably the uniqueness of the building.

23:55Obviously, it is a cylinder. And it's really important for us that everyone in the space always had a really good view of the aspect out because it's got so much natural eye. You've got an incredible view across the city. let's kind of say yeah yeah so for us it was really important that we everyone could enjoy that yeah so you kind of gave that yeah so rather than running desks like crossways we wanted to almost uh lead them out to the windows but obviously in doing that you you get natural pinch points um as the desks get closer to the center of the space so it was all about staggering but then in doing that we were able then to bring in these like little breakout areas um where they uh in different silos it can have like little meetings yeah yeah talk about product fabrics uh as well as being functional as well so it's got storage um so it just allowed for that and yeah worked incredibly well yeah and i like how you've i like how the pin i don't know what i like how they all run and you follow this like line with the acoustic slats and exactly everything all design consideration yeah all going that way but then you've kind of managed this pinch point really nicely and this yep softening the curves using some biophilia with these bespoke plant pots but rather than just have them sat at the end really nice conscious choices just to bring the desks in so they feel connected to that as well yeah is there more desks now than there was when you started yes absolutely as a business has been growing it's been growing yeah that occupancy has been higher than i expected yeah i think i think i think both i think i don't think they um i don't think they foresaw like how much they were going to grow uh and how quickly um and the need for those extra desks they were considered like if we had to how we could bringing them in so they're they were having to action that sooner uh than they expected um so there were some other features over in the main meeting area uh there were some nice touches but you know the priority of getting some more desks in which is always sort of considered uh has happened recently and like i said earlier there's now another round uh yeah expansion uh and moving out which is yeah no it's great and this artwork or is that changing how does that yeah that's something you designed in or yes we wanted to just bring in some of the um campaign visual yeah uh visuals into the space so again connecting with some of the visual stories that they're telling at retail or where where um so the energy of the actual um their community um so or brand statements so yeah these can be changed out of these uh i believe they are the same as when we uh first installed but the idea is that as tfs fabrics they can just be pulled out uh and new seasonal uh imagery put in yeah yeah that's pleasant and this oh these are the these are the washing machine these are the washing machines i find that funny i don't know why it's kind of obvious isn't it but wow these are lovely yeah so for their business it's really important to do shrink testing color testing uh so we designed this space um so obviously we wanted to be a part of the working space but we've got these really nice screens just to subtly screen it off have really nice so they bespoke joinery yeah yeah yeah so pretty much all of this is bespoke joinery uh except for the working desks which by the way all of those are um standing desks as well So, depending on their preference, it can either be sat or elevated working.

27:59It's quite successful, isn't it? Yeah, it's brilliant. I want that in my laundry at home. It's very bougie. Exactly, yeah. So, these are sit-stand desks, you say? Yeah, so these ones here are sit-stand desks.

28:17I won't fiddle with this person's sat, but I would. but actually that's cool that's good and oh they have quite a lot of yeah other little details and challenges with they need big plotters and printers um but yeah just embracing those but but nicely positioned in the space yeah and then we're coming to like kind of the end of the space really where we're seeing are these changing rooms yes so they can be yes it's a nice little area for fit testing. So this could either be a big sort of product testing area. You've got this then integrated curtain here as well, which I can't open from this side, is a natural fitting room.

29:05I wonder if it happens on this side. No. Oh, it's a little fitting room. It's a tiny little footer room. Oh, it doesn't open though. So you just have to climb in. Yeah. Okay. That's cool. So there's some privacy there. So if they've got a model and their product testing, uh, they can get changed and obviously come out here or it can be completely screened off for full privacy. Yeah. Or flexed out to be a meeting space. Oh, nice. Or just a working area. So if you wanted to just sit here by the window and enjoy that aspect, um, you've got the little tables here, you can just set up with a laptop.

29:42Yeah. You know, a space that works really hard. Yeah, I bet. Multifunctional and works hard for itself. I'm basically solar powered, so I'd probably be there all the time. I like the floor. It's so subtle. Yep, super subtle. Again, just that soft, natural stone texture. But again, just to bounce and elevate the light. Yeah, that was nice. Then we come around here. still more of a meeting space i guess yeah so it can either become one massive um fit test area or one big meeting area i see yeah so it completely flexes uh with the with the way that the curtains have been used these curtains are actually a mixology finalist and they're made of the 100 of it is recycled plastic bottles made in europe which is brilliant yeah which is i think this was one of the first projects that they it went in on i think our main projects or like you know i mean we always run a few test projects but yeah yeah it's one of the first main ones i think that was one of the deciding uh decisions in using it it's obviously because the eco and sustainability credentials which is really important for the brand yeah that's great and then we come to a couple more years yeah second life second life it's really important for us like it's in really good use of space um in using these rather i think uh in their previous workspace they were just in one big run uh which is a bit like say a bit uniformed uh whereas first we wanted to break these out um and use them around around the office rather just in one area i see and did you you were they always built in like that i feel like they're much nicer than normal that normally they stand alone these big square things but they don't feel so square No, so we did want to encase them in.

31:33So actually they are quite, you know, they are what they are, right? They're just one big rectangle box. But for us, yeah, it's just inserting them, bringing them into these soft curves as well. So again, just... Soft-ism. Yeah. And it was really, really successful. They don't feel so... They don't really feel like a pod. They feel more like a purpose-built meeting room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a credit to the team. Yeah, the team at White Room. yeah there's always considering like all the little details it's something i talk a lot to them about it's like if you focus on the little details you get all those details right then the big picture will you know always take care of itself uh where some designers always start with a big picture and work back yeah yeah we try to do it the other way and is there a lot of work in investigating the brand and making sure that everything that you've created through here is like playing with their design language how does that work from a starting off of the project perspective um yeah that's a good question so we do go through a process um you know we definitely start with a research and ideation uh and you know we do deep dive into the brand we understand like the value values principles approach um their community what they're looking to achieve and you know we we when we start a project uh we like to create an essence for a space we like to give it a soul and we'll probably do some internal work.

33:00There's never sort of forward facing, but it's a springboard for the design on this space and we call that our essence. And for us, yeah, that was obviously movement, fluidity, and it can either be a word or it can be a sentence. But yeah, we take that and we take that through and then we always then go back can reference like does that service the essence and does that bring that through uh and then again that's a driver for when we design uh these these kind of work spaces uh so then hopefully everything then does align everything comes together the details work so the space itself works and it works for the team yeah you can see that just kind of pass through once more of the space yeah Should we just walk?

33:48And if there's anything we've missed out, let us know. I like these high tables that you mentioned. These are quite cute. Yeah. No, they are. So again, these are flexible moving boards. Yeah. So because obviously for the brand and the business, it's understanding how they got, because they got user space, right? It's not about just looking great or, you know, all the materials is about. It's actually got to work for the business, work for the teams. um so yeah little details like these very uh custom um sort of yeah pink boards if you want to call them uh work really well with some integrated storage um and yeah whiteboarding with the pens or just leaning their uh image panels it is yeah but you can tell it's a creative office can't you like yeah it's got this whole like so a little bit of an organized chaos over here but it works yeah it does well i probably shouldn't look in there is this about all new products that are coming product research or what so this was a sample area okay uh so when they're designing products uh they'll be getting new material fabrics that are coming through um so they'll be getting all the books from their partners and suppliers and it just allows the team easy access to pick all these books out so when they're looking at new season collections or colorways you know what fabrics can they work with what uh you know sort of credentials has our fabric got um so yeah this is this area uh is very much that it's just full of samples fabric samples and it's just impossible to manage that isn't it like in it in some way so this is so nicely done like in bringing it to one like focal point in the office opposite the meeting space yeah yeah the pink boards to like just so it's such a hub always accessible that's the thing like you know at every point you can like turn around and you can see design flow you can work with materials and that was really important for them can imagine this is quite a noisy part of the office and then a lot happens here a big meeting area and like yeah there's a lot of activity here which we did centralize we kept it in in the center yeah no it's it's pleasant like that like it's you can feel the structure and the thought process through it and october one yeah they have to plan so far in advance don't they for their they do yeah 12 to 18 months yeah you're looking at trends trend guides color trends as an apparel brand they're building out um yeah like style guides and um yeah mood and language uh yeah those those color references yeah no it's cool great amazing and yeah that this really well sets out how that stepped in to manage that pinch point of the space i like i like that right it's about maximizing the space which is really important um making sure that everyone has a really good view they feel connected to the outdoors um so it's where yeah it's worked incredibly well yeah very good greg it's it's It's so nice to see it come to life and simple things.

37:01Simple things make me happy. And then we're back out to the main breakout area. We are, yes. Amazing. What a great tour. What a great insight to an amazing brand, White Room and Sweaty Betty and how they're using their space, how you created that and how your retail experience has come in to a working office where people can flourish and do their best work and help the brand forward. And so much show that they're evolving and growing. And yeah, no, so thank you, Craig. I appreciate it. It's been great working with you guys and your ideas that you've bought for as well. So yeah, it's been a pleasure.

37:43Excellent. Well, thank you for looking, following, checking us out, seeing what Sweaty Betty are doing, what White Room are doing. Definitely a brand. If you haven't seen White Room, to how you can look at them if you're into like experiential design it's it's really exciting how they've brought that through into a lot of their spaces and like i always say really appreciate a like and a rating on the podcast because it helps the show to grow and us to see more fantastic spaces yeah thank you great appreciate that cheers thank you