Construction’s most expensive mistake - Measure twice, never assume.

0:00You're tripping over each other, trying to please everyone, whereas sometimes that doesn't quite work. We always just try and think, right, how efficient can we do this? It's better for everyone to do as efficient as possible. It's the communication, I think, that just has to echo through everyone. I've been into buildings before starting a project. No one knows what's about to start. How long has this been going on? And that makes everyone's life easier. Giving someone bad news three months in advance is much easier than three days in advance. Hey, welcome to Space by Stansons. Today I'm talking to Warren Bragg, Contracts Manager at Ambit Moat.

0:32And I'm cool with this one. I'm looking forward to it because, as everyone knows, space, we're generally talking to designers, design community, head of design, end clients, that type of thing. And we rarely talk to the projects, the nuts and bolts side. But we're trying to do it more. It's just what space we're trying to do it more to kind of bridge that gap because there's so many conversations from a design perspective and like a concept and wouldn't it be amazing if and then like you guys are out there with skyhooks and yeah making it happen making it happen so i really um from a space perspective and like the growth of space i really want to bring that kind of construction side how we could think more from early doors like how we could think to maybe um support the end delivery and all that sort of thing so welcome warren Thank you for coming on.

1:24Thanks for having me. I'm excited. No, good. Excellent. So Warren, you've been contracts manager at Ambit for? Three and a half years. Three years. Four years in May this year. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So you've been on your journey. I don't know. What does that look like in a nutshell, like getting to where you are today? Started as assistant site manager for a mains contractor, fairly small mains contractor, and then just sort of worked my way up the ladder. So I've always been on site. I left there, went to CBRE. So I looked as a project manager for them. Yeah. So project manager for them is almost like a one-stop shop.

1:56We were tendering, pre-con, you'd run your own commercials, you'd deliver the projects and then do everything at the back end. So it was quite a good learning curve to do that, but I did it during COVID. So it was a funny time to be doing anything. We were still key workers, so we were on site doing bits and pieces, but it's kind of a funny transition. And then I left there, I went to ISG, and I worked there as a project manager for about a year and a bit. Then I moved over to Ambit. Were you part of the whole ISG? No, luckily I was about two years ahead of that. I heard a whistle. No, I didn't really.

2:31Yeah, yeah, you felt it coming. It was just time for a change. A few people I'd worked with at ISG had moved to Ambit. Ambit had a really good working relationship, all site-based guys. So the opportunity came to go across to Ambit. So I joined Ambit as a PM again. And then, yeah, worked my way up to contracts manager. Wicked. That's amazing. And what's one thing that you know today that you wish had known? I think it's just, and everyone would probably say this, but I think it's just never assumed. I think prior to being in construction, I kind of had sort of hands-on kind of work where you're kind of relying on yourself.

3:06And so you know you've done the task that you've been set right or to the best of your ability, etc. And you start managing other people. And the assumption is, well, I'm looking at the correct drawing. He must be looking at the correct drawing. And that may not be the case. And it's the same with things get delivered. Everything comes in a barren box. Are these the lights for this room? Probably. Just assume they are. Up they go. They're not the lights for this room. So it's that kind of learning curve of where we now have kind of these rigorous paperwork, which everyone would say there's too much paperwork in construction now.

3:40But I think it is necessary because it's just these checkpoints, hold points to make sure what we're doing is correct. Things to update. Technology helps a lot. We use online portals now. So, you know, for the site guys, they can only get hold of the latest drawing. So that really, they shouldn't be working to anything old. Obviously, if it gets printed, that's a different story. But everyone now, if you say, can you get the drawing? And it's on your phone. So it's quite good to kind of keep those portals updated. That way everyone's working from the most recent information. So I'd say, yeah, never assume that someone is doing what you think they're doing, because chances are there's something's going to arrive somewhere.

4:16Yeah, I can imagine that. But is that quite a lot of admin, Warren? And does that fall on you? Or how does that look? So we have document controllers. So the online portal, anyone on the project has access to that. They get added to that as soon as they join the project. And then they'll be trained to how to use the software. And it will just be very easy. Like, click drawings. You'll find the drawings. And then the on-site teams will only see the latest drawings. Whereas back of house, we can see previous versions, where things have changed. You know, those sort of things. but then also we use those to interface with our health and safety obviously that's a massive part of construction now so all the health and safety documents get uploaded there so any one of our health and safety advisors or directors can check that all the documents are in place yeah and that just rolls on through through everyone in the business really so it is good system uh like it say like paperwork from when i even 10 years ago when i first started the paperwork is definitely definitely taking over but uh but it's it's a necessary evil i think it is but it's like when you get those emails through these projects like can you look at this package or whatever and it's just like drawing to drawing and drawing and registers and registers yeah it's just like quite it can be quite overwhelming for someone especially when they're coming into industry it's just like yeah it's a lot it is a lot and it i guess so on bigger schemes we would yeah reduce that down so someone might only look at a couple of packages if you did walk into a huge game and look at everything there's it's huge and your lesson like never assumed did that come from like a really bad experience or multiple little things not me personally but there has been times where i've seen uh sprinklers been activated because someone assumed something was turned off or something wasn't live uh so those sort of things are yeah kind of things you hear about you see oh i assumed he did it yeah yeah yeah okay well that's uh i can just i've just got this picture it's like almost finished cat b office and then these sprinters going on yeah yeah yeah luckily it wasn't that far it was right at the beginning of the project but it's still um obviously the knock-on effect of that it's just did someone check a permit did the building manager know did the site manager know yeah did the office know you know all those like i said there's checkpoints hold points to make sure the process are in place to eliminate those assumptions but when those routes don't work or there's a missing link that's when the assumption like you know measure twice cut once is you know now it's almost measure three times good old-fashioned saying they work don't they so as a contracts manager like now ambit what does what does your role actually look like from a day to day like or a week to week so i oversee our kind of smaller special projects i guess you would say so um i have um site-based teams on several different projects how many have you got one uh four or five okay so a varying size and degree and then i just try and spend a day where i can on each one or half a day where i can some are quite close to each other just to drop in and just do people need support are um contractors not doing what they said they would?

7:30Are there any health and safety issues? Have there been any instructions? Have the client made any changes that we need to pick up? Does anything need re-costing, re-reviewing? Have there been variations to the contract that we need to review? There's quite a lot of that. Things sometimes end up in the grey and whose responsibility that might be. We have to kind of navigate that to kind of come to a head. And then really just supporting whoever needs support to push to get the project to the finish line on time on budget and with a happy end user yeah it's a lot across five sides it's a lot yeah a lot of people yeah that's it yeah it's a lot of people and again that goes back to the assumption so you're kind of checking in i asked last week for x y and z to happen did it happen a site manager might be looking a week two weeks ahead yeah and you might have a pm on that project who's looking for six weeks ahead and then i'm sort of there to be looking two months three months ahead because i'm moving this project to an end and then also where's this site manager going to work next what project's coming up where's the pm going to go who do we need to orchestrate for it moving around and the kind of logistics and so kind of yeah and then obviously above me the directors are looking six months ahead looking at the pipeline for next year and end of year targets and stuff.

8:55So yeah, that's kind of where I sort of slot in. Yeah. What keeps you up in that? Health and safety. As I move slightly further away from site, being the kind of number one on site, it has a lesson, but that is the big one. There's always something. It could be really minor, there's a training lead. Everyone knows it's there, everyone stepped over it all week, but someone could trip on it. So you do have to pick those tiny things up. Some of the projects we're doing, we're doing crane lifts, we're shutting streets, shelling a building, taking floors out, there's structural supports everywhere.

9:26And it's always just, you know, and again, back to the assumption thing, we put all the props in, we've got to check they're all in the right place. We're putting the steels in now, we've got to check they're all in the right place. The steel says it's going to be three metres, the opening says it's going to be three metres. Has anyone checked in three metres? There's all these little bits and pieces that just have to be captured. So yeah, the health and safety is a big one because it's just, sites are always changing. you can come in on a monday the site is empty by the end of the day walls been put up there's bins been put in the way there's things moving so suddenly your exit route is different you know all in the space of an afternoon so then you've got update paperwork do the site guys know the exit route has changed it's all those little things should the worst happen you know you don't want anyone walking the wrong way so it's all those kind of those things are mainly what i think about like i say the scale of them always depends so when you're doing big structural progress there's more things to think about there's more bodies on site there's more chances i suppose yeah no and it's just responsibility of the many people and i'm going back to people in there and lives and it's just like yeah the biggest one the biggest one for me is if we've said something's going to take two weeks and reality takes three weeks but everyone's going to do it safely it'll take three weeks there's no point trying to rush someone will have an issue not necessarily you know life threatening or you know it might just be a cut finger because they put their gloves on because they were rushing you know they still have to go get that addressed it has to be logged noted you know check up on them a couple of days later are they okay was there any repercussions on that and then all the paperwork why didn't he have his gloves on oh you know and all these sort of things whereas really if everyone just uses the time sensibly takes a breath normally touch wood things go more hasten at speed or whatever the saying is exactly there's all these old sayings that are very helpful it come into my mind yeah no fair enough how do you um i'm just going off on one here but like how do you um like keep yourself organized and that sort of thing if you use apps or you just like naturally you notepads or well i did say i did say this year i might start writing stuff down because i normally just have it in my head i'll set my diary up normally at the end of the week looking ahead for the next week like that outlet exactly just as easy as that so today i knew i I was going to go to one project, then the next project, then I'll come in here, then I'll go to another site visit.

11:47So that's kind of structured my day, and I'll do that for the whole week. In meetings, normally we have minutes taken, so that's kind of just refer back to those. That's quite easy. But yeah, action list. Normally, if I've got a lot going on, I just send myself an email. Just bullet points, everything I need to do. But yeah, this year I think maybe I might start writing stuff down because it's just like there's a lot. And plus, you're always in front of the computer then. It's quite nice to put pen to paper. yeah yeah for what i do i'm always emails and drawings and stuff so yeah so you're laying awake at night and you can yeah there's no there's no i can't give anyone any tips on any clever apps to say this to make your life easier i've done things like monday in the past but it's just another thing to check i found so it kind of sort of faded away from doing it i think well the biggest tour i think that i passed a few years whatsapp everyone emails you can email email email but everyone's got a phone in their pocket i know it's got email on it but sending a quick whatsapp is quite easy.

12:42There's no, you don't really have to format it. You don't have to put a header. You don't think, who am I CCing in? It's just like, hello, Mr. SiteMasurer, this is the problem. So it's done. And you think, at least I've told him. And then even if it's a bit jumbled in what I've said, I'll see him at site and go, what's that message all about? Or come back to you straight away. Site guys should be on site so they don't tend to be in front of their computers all day. You know, it's back of house, tend to be in front of the screen. So they get their emails more frequently maybe. So I just think, yeah, handy and even i take photos on my personal phone and just eat that and just whatsapp them to my work phone yeah and it's even that it's just a little memory jog yeah i don't know so yeah if you ever find a clever app let me know yeah no i'm yeah i've just i've just actually from doing the podcast i saw somebody who uses one note and every single thing they'd put that every day they have a one note that they just jot down what that their key tasks are or lately notes of me which yeah it sounded sounded quite cool but I can't say I've proved it yet I'm definitely getting into it so but I think those things that build don't they you don't just like yeah the magic spanner it becomes a habit right I worked with a really good um head of services and yeah he was one note and he had everything there and because he was on multiple projects each one had a screen they were all laid out exactly the same and yet it just becomes becomes routine yeah it's about building that in isn't it I think I'm a bit of a whatsapp though because I just love that.

14:10I know emailers as well, like you said, it just seems to be heavier, but I love how you can just, I've got a notes chat just myself. So I just send stuff to the guy's notes. I just send it to notes. And then I'm just like pictures, like you say, straight away, then it's on your laptop. And you just got it. It's a bridge between mobile and laptop. It's funny, actually, I got a new laptop and I said to the guys in IT, can you put WhatsApp back on it? I really don't normally do that. I was like, I don't know how anyone else does it. I do it all the time. Yeah. Just, yeah, on your phone, ping, done.

14:40And you can just search. It's like one of the best search thing on it. That's all my driving license. Yeah, exactly. Someone needs to see it. I'm like, yeah. Just use your documents. Yeah, it's just like everything's on my, like, guys' notes. It's just like a living feed of life. Yeah, so, yeah, that is definitely a key tool. And, yeah, and normally, you know, 99.9 % of people have it. Yeah. So it's so easy. If you started using a Monday or something, you've got to say to everyone else, can you download this? Can you start using this? and you're kind of almost forcing people and then people don't buy into it.

15:10Whereas, yeah, everyone's got lots of... What are three really smart VE value engineering hacks you've seen, either on site or you've done yourself? Lighting always gets VE'd. Okay, interesting. Funny this has come up, but carry on. I've done a few projects where either an architect would have designed or they've got a lighting designer in and they do sort of want the world. And lighting can be incredibly expensive. So, unfortunately, when the clients and the QSs are skimming through the numbers, that number tends to pop because it's always quite large. You know, there's so many different suppliers out there that people don't know about and people are able to mirror other things.

15:50There's new tech coming out. You can whittle that number down, but still get the same effects, feature lighting, you know, spreads of light and everything. So there's ways and means of making that work. We did a project where I had a really long light recessed through a corridor, and it was a really busy corridor, and it didn't work. And so we've got to change with this light. And it was a massive upheaval to try and take a ceiling down, take everything out, put a new one back in, in this live area. And so one of our electricians just said, well, of an evening, we can take all the internals out.

16:25You can leave your shell. We'll send it away. they'll remake exactly the same light fitting to fit back inside and you just click it back in and back in an evening we did that and it was much more cost effective because we didn't have to rip anything we didn't have to do any facilitating works and we didn't impact the kind of the stopping of the reception space so all those kind of costs and impacts and people's days and things kind of all went away but the problem is as well on the other side of that you go into an office it's got grid lighting it's got these panel lights currently it's not sustainable to rejig the gubbins and make it work again because they're so cheap to manufacture feature lighting those sort of things work but for kind of your log standards it's like changing a light bulb you wouldn't send a light bulb way to have the filament put back in no no no it's just crazy yeah so it's it's one of them so yeah like i say it's probably the biggest one close second is furniture and finishes okay i think um or just like finding alternative furniture looks pretty Yeah.

17:21So one of our sister companies speak to all the supply chain and a client - It's that platform. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah, go ahead. So they might say, okay, in our current office, we've got this furniture and they'll know, okay, that brand, that brand, that brand. So they'll speak to that supply chain. Okay, they're moving offices. They want to match the bits and pieces, and then you can give that number and they've been in that office for 15 years. Obviously, price has all gone up. Oh, the budget's huge. It's too much. What can we do? But because we're speaking to everyone, okay, well, that you can get in this version it's a slightly different finish slightly different color you can make more of a feature of it but it's going to be 50 less and so just by those sort of things you know again it's another big number that everyone sees and that's the other thing it's easy to whittle down you could probably be anything to a degree but it's a lot of effort you know paint is paint you can't there's not really many places to go you've got your high ends and your low ends and your middle ground but they the scale of changing that much whereas you know you can buy a chair for 200 quid you can buy a chair for two grand you can buy a chair for 20 grand yeah yeah big numbers much bigger number right yeah and also just the total number on furniture and fittings is a very different number to like pain in it yeah yeah so that's probably the biggest turn i guess the other ve that what kind of we do internally we have our um sustainability team and every project we go in and say right what's being left what can we reuse what can be repurposed one project we just rejigged all the glazing they already had so we didn't like the partitions you mean yeah so all the glazed partitions and the doors were on site just the client wanted to change the layout so we just carefully took everything down and stored it did all the other facilitating works and put them back up that's amazing a different layout and then all we did was paint the doors because the frames were black and i think the doors were timber which is a bit of that fashion so we just sprayed all the doors black and that's just a massive you know, because someone else might have walked in and said, right, out, all it goes and we'll start again.

19:20It's awkward. It's a standard bit. It's awkward because we had to store, you know, meters and meters of glazing. We built five offices, I think, and two meeting rooms and a Zoom room. So it's quite a lot. And yeah, you're tripping over it because, you know, you don't want to take it away and bring it back. But, you know, instead of just bringing in brand new and skipping, it's amazing. It's that a fine line, isn't it? Because it's like what you're saying about the light bulb i totally hear that like sometimes sustain the like it's not even commercially or sustainably viable to necessarily keep the old like on the light bulb example but then it's a bit of a fine line because then it comes to a tipping point like if you manage to save all that glass and actually generate a cost saving for the client and then it's also that's when sustainability becomes really attractive isn't it yeah it's a cost saving and it's producing waste and it's reducing landfill blah blah blah and you're like okay now we're now we're on the money yeah but it's like that's a bit of a balancing act right yeah and i think i'll yeah iron house team find that quite a lot you know if you're moving materials about there's all those associated costs to make it sustainable who's picking up that cost to transport from one place to another to take it down to put it back up and then how many guys need to move it and then it's almost you know yeah you know you say it becomes the easier route is just get new you know do you have to change the design slightly to make it work is it a worthy change or is that gonna not give the desired look the desired feel the desired finish because you're just trying to shoehorn something in but it's you know it's all for the better if we can keep yeah so raised access flooring you can you know put an allowance in for new but a lot of the time the guys will sell reconditioned so it can be cleaned or the glue gets taken off detacked some places do k fit outs with one idea in mind it never happens they take it all out so it's almost brand new it's not worth throwing they can store it and you can bring it in quite cheap and it fits you know that sort of stuff's quite standard yeah a lot of times offices change the layout so you don't need to replace the whole thing it might just be your moving floor boxes so you can either reuse the ones that really cut or you just need to infill some cuts so there's all these little clever ideas that that sometimes people don't think about they just think no we just need to make the floors 100 square meters put another 100 square meters in but you don't need to so So those sort of sensible conversations are easy wins for everyone.

21:42Yeah. You know. And is that what sustainability pick up for you? Yeah. So they come in. A mutually viable kind of balance. Yeah. They help come in and start the project. What's been left, even what furniture has been left, even if the floor don't want it, the new end user doesn't want it, but we might be able to use it as our welfare and our, you know, site office. There's no point chucking it in a skip and me hiring in some stuff. There's a perfectly good desk there. So there's all those kind of little things up to, yeah, the glazing, like I said, or if there is sensible furniture can we reuse it or can we find a charity can we find a school can we find someone to reuse it otherwise yeah unfortunately construction a lot of things do end up in skips although you know recycling centers are much better now and they will they can divert things from landfill but we'd always try and go for reuse first now it can actually be surprisingly difficult to find like what we've found because we do get quite a lot of i kind of different level and obviously but we get quite a lot of waste in fabric in terms of either mismeasures or clients change their mind like after it's been made and it goes in actually we want a different color and um or like roll with fabric and then it'll get discontinued yeah yeah it's like good fabric it could be made into things and like or i don't know whatever like curtains for a house where someone can't afford cut yeah and but that little gap between the need and like us and probably maybe what you'll find as well it's just like kind of needs a little bit more work yeah there's like storage as well if you kept every scrap you'd have millions of meters of it yeah and then you would never find anything and something would be at the back it'd be forgotten because you wouldn't it logged and that yeah that is the middle bit where it's like how do you make that efficient to work the the dream is you have this surplus product for whatever reason and then the next day someone takes it but that wouldn't happen it never happens it's like oh i might need it in about three weeks time can you store it maybe uh and then it's it just gets disjointed and it doesn't happen and you're left with it and you think there's you know what i'm not wasting this time i've tried but it didn't go anywhere and that's got to go so yeah i do think if they can slim down the gap but it does sound mad because you know there are people struggling in all different walks of life and you think someone would love a set of curtains but you can't you can't knock on the street down every door and say do you want a set of curtains by chance are your meters two meters by what yeah exactly that's the thing everything's to a degree kind of bespoke once it's gone in and you just have to find that so we like the glazing that worked because we were moving on the same floor plate so the ceiling height didn't change and we had enough to rejig and made it work you know we might have to build a little plasterboard nib but that's better than ordering a whole new wall so that's kind of an easy win but yeah when you get into the you know when a site's got one chair you know it's quite expensive but it's a specific color how long do you look no no makes sense but it does come on to another question i hadn't for you warren how do you think construction is going to like change over this year or next 12 months what are we going to start to see becoming more normal well i think we can't avoid ai not necessarily on the delivery i mean i've seen robots that will mark out floors for you and things like that off the drawing you know that sort of stuff you know that's fine i don't think that coming?

25:11Bigger schemes are using them, definitely bigger schemes, but I don't think smaller projects, it's worth it because for the guys to still get the lasers out, mark it, put them up, it's quite easy. I mean, the good thing about that robot, you can set off at eight o 'clock at night and it will just do its thing. And by the time everyone comes back in the morning, the next floor is marked out. So it's quite clever, but I think scaling that up might be, or even scaling down to the smaller projects, probably quite difficult. I think in terms of AI for the drawings and stuff I think we'll see a lot more visuals and kind of Matterport scan immersive clients can kind of almost walk a space in a 3D realm ahead of kind of delivery or picking colors picking samples you can kind of get a bit of an idea you know normally the visual be like from one end of a room and then the other end of the room and you kind of get a bit of a feel of what it'd be but I think there's going to be more in the day-to-day you'll see more of this kind of immersive you can you know either spin on your computer screen around a space like a Matterport scan or you can chuck on a pair of goggles and kind of walk a space and how does it flow how does it work for your business you said you want an extra meeting room but it's a bit isolated from the other meeting rooms kind of just take a walk and so you think that works and you kind of get that idea how many times you look at a drawer and you think what a huge space and you go there and think ah it's tiny or vice versa and then you know the architect design team think okay we're trying to we're trying to shoehorn too much in here actually because it feels a bit more cramped on a drawing you can't appreciate ceiling height um so i think i think there'll be more that kind of tech brought into the day-to-day whereas whereas things are advancing where it's becoming more accessible we're not as costly more expensive they can get done quicker um i think all that kind of generated by ai will is that something that will come into your like realm or do you think it'll be more like client um design kind of stages or would it come into the construction build stage i think for now probably stay more design client side um but even now if we have visuals produced at tender we will have them printed on the walls on site like this is the end goal just to kind of help guys kind of get that idea i think before they were kind of used at tender and then kind of disappeared into the ether but now it's like okay this is the end target it kind of helps steer onto the kind of goal it gives an idea of the kind of quality finish expected the kind of use of the space um so yeah i think yeah i think it was slowly creep but for now i think probably still on the design side and then there's always new ideas but it's just the ones that stick there's always more we'll see more sustainable products hopefully we will where the market will accept the higher prices currently for more sustainable products and then once they become more accepted then the kind of costs will hopefully level out and they'll become more frequently used on site more you know you can recycle plasterboard costs more but it's more efficient you know better for the environments that's good but it costs more slightly currently that changes then that's all for the better there are more sustainable paints out there but again they're quite niche so once the bigger companies pick them up then then they'll roll out and it'll be for the better but yeah it's just trying to find finding the the ones that stick currently is the hard thing yeah i do find that with construct i mean i've been in it and around it right from a child if you like and it's it's quite slow moving in terms of evolving isn't it and in a way like how things get built as like go back years and like years and years and years right now not just my lifetime but like way way so evolving and innovating in that is kind of there is innovations of course there is but the actual underlying sort of methodology and sort of practices kind of do end up staying the same but i'm quite excited about ai that you talk about you're looking like three months or three weeks ahead or whatever um to be able to see what that space looks like there and predict any issues or changes or that's i think that could be could be quite a support yeah yeah yeah for contracts and project managers and client everything but yeah i do feel that construction is quite slow moving in terms of adopting and adapting yeah i think and that's probably because it's so fast paced like you almost don't have time to stop and think is there another way to do this it's like we always did it this way we're just going on doing it that way so it's kind of finding the time and the right people to kind of go well you could do with this product this way and you also need for that you need to buy in from the client and say okay well let's try it let's give it a go on this one scheme if it works great if it doesn't you know we'll have to bite the bullet unfortunately then that's the other thing eventually someone's got to pay for it yeah i was just going to say what do you think is the biggest challenge in delivering a project like for you that i know we've touched quite deep well we've gone quite deeply into some streaming but things but what's the challenge in delivering a project like that you talk about time and money that yeah everyone wants things done as quickly as possible because obviously it's most cost efficient way of doing it so we try and do it as streamlined as we can and we look at where the efficiencies in time are and then it's getting the buy-in from the building managers the facilities teams the on-site engineers that you know we've done this multiple times and if you can just i don't know if you have a building that's got two entrances okay if we just cut the building in half if you can ask all of your staff to go around the back for two weeks we can knock out the front and then we'll swap it around whereas they might say okay you do it lengthways and then you kind of you're tripping over each other trying to please everyone whereas sometimes that doesn't quite work you're just trying to look at where we always just try and think right how efficiently can we do this it's better for everyone to do as efficiently as possible so it's always trying to manage expectations of end users and people within the building and it's all yeah it's the it's the communication i think that just has to echo through everyone to you know the people who work in accounts on the eighth floor need to know what you're doing i've been into buildings before starting a project and no one knows it's about to start and you're about to shut their reception for six weeks and they're like how long does this been going on and you think well it's probably been the conversation for like three years but it just hasn't echoed through the building and that makes everyone's life easier giving someone bad news three months in advance is much easier than three days in advance so that's kind of a kind of a thing we try and be as accommodating as we can but ultimately if we can work as efficiently as possible then we are in and out out of your hair you've got a shiny new building everyone's happy it's nice and easy it's really down to communication in that that it's kind of the news is the news and people can handle it if they've got enough time to absorb and get used to it and go through the emotional roller coaster if there is one or yeah yeah yeah and we say that from the very start you know we'll have you know we'll have town halls we'll get everyone down we'll do newsletters we'll sit you down we'll walk through the drawings you know we can we don't happen to do that up front as well but by the time we're on board you know we might be starting in four weeks whereas the design period has probably had a duration of yeah a couple of years six months longer you don't know it's just to get it to that point so it's just yeah i think just the spread of information is just definitely key to managing the expectations and normally that helps yeah just everyone's kind of yeah mentally prepared yeah it is what it is isn't it i agree i can see how that is i think one of the things for like you touched on time it kind of almost conflicts isn't it because you're talking about sustainability and like kind of almost needing more time to be sustainable and then you're talking about how the whole amazon effect comes next day and now we're expecting buildings to be refurbished next day and i'm no disruption to my life i want my burger in 30 minutes under the brew and i want yeah yeah yeah um that whole like kind of rapid pace that we work at and that instant gratification that kind of instant service and that we're totally used to and yeah trying to communicate out that construction isn't like that and why it's not like that and how it we will be it's just it's quite an uphill battle in a way i think yeah like we said well like we were talking about earlier whatsapp email you can just share information so quickly that people think you can answer them instantly but you know there is time needed for thought i'd love i've missed all the the general you know well before the generations where you know an architect was pen and paper and just sketch something out and then, you know, get the rulers out and all that sort of stuff and, oh, right, I'll post it to you.

33:57You know, it doesn't happen now. You just send an email, bang, got a new drawing, right, we're doing this now. And yeah, like you say, all these other things in our lives generally where it's instant, it comes into the workplace and then you just think, yeah. Lead times are only getting worse. I don't know why. Hopefully they'll change. But you sort of, in your head think, okay, that'll take about 12 weeks to get here and then suddenly it's 14, 16 weeks and then that's your... program is you might as well just rip it up and start again you'll just constantly the program is correct until the first day you're on site and it's like right that's all changed start again oh that lead time's changed start again oh that lead time's changed start again so that is and again it's people managing you know pleading on the phone is there any chance you can reduce the delivery time is there any chance you can install it slightly quicker and then that goes back to but we still need to do it safely still need to do it correctly we want to do it once so it's it's just always yeah you're just juggling and spinning floats how could design really help you deliver on time and on budget like what could do at design stage to help contracts i think if they're like start sharing um like standard details early because a lot of the time a curtain track is probably quite standard but But if it's like recessed and it needs to go in before the boarding and no one's really aware of that, it doesn't get programmed that way.

35:23So then suddenly, you know, the site will think, right, all the ceilings are in, all the windows are finished. Right, let's have a look at curtains. And then they'll say, well, that's got to be recessed. And it's like, ah, and that's not just curtain, you know, curtain walling is the same and moving walls is the same. I know there should be a track in there before we did that. Oh, we need grounds to fix to. You know, again, no one assumed you needed grounds to fix to. So suddenly it's like, right, how can I not destroy the ceiling but get some ply up there so someone can screw to it? So I guess it's those little niche little things that maybe the guys on site wouldn't think about, but the supply chain would just do it day to day.

35:57You don't think about it because that's what you do. You go in and you fix to this because there's always that in there. But again, if it's not communicated early, it gets kind of missed. Doesn't get programmed, whereas the program would just say complete ceilings, install curtains, for example. Whereas it would be get head track in. complete ceilings, put the curtains in, and then you've just got that phasing as it should be. And it's all stuff that's really simple, that's done in the right time. It's a bit like your light that you took out of a perception area they mentioned back at the start.

36:27It was really easy to put that in at the time, but then to rip it all out and put it in, it's just like a totally boring thing. Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing. Everyone who does their own job, you can do it your eyes shut to degree and you just assume everyone again assume everyone else knows how it's done but when the guys on site are doing the same thing all day every day yeah it just becomes second nature but not necessarily the next person in the chain knows those little nuances that need to be done so yeah we've i've cut ceilings open before to put ply in to get fixings in you know where we could have just done that before the ceiling went in yeah but the again again communication communication process not knowing that little thing but they're all lessons learned so next time you know if it's happened to you you'll go do you need anything in the wall for that do you need anything in the ceiling for that you know all these little the first time i put a microwave in they put the socket behind the microwave and then the microwave will push back so going forward don't put the sockets behind the microwave don't put the sockets behind the dishwasher don't put the socket behind the washing machine because you you know five mil can break your heart like yeah it's there is so much and then the no projects are either the same i know you've learned that lesson on no project which is great and like kind of you're always finessing if you like the perfect project but and then tomorrow it'll be the next thing and it's just like how you just can't over share or over communicate such things in such a busy world where people are getting so many emails and so many messages is to try and from our perspective as well is to try and deliver like really meaningful valuable content in a way that's easy to digest and forward on and share or do you know what I mean so it's like again juggling balance yeah yeah yeah but no this is interesting from a design perspective how we can help contracts it's good to know it's good for our team to know as well so and what excites you most about the future we're rolling into a new year by the way recorded maybe we're recording this on the 5th of january so yeah what's it what's the most exciting about probably going back to the what tech all these ai things is going to help that sort of bridge that gap of sustainability what what sustainable more sustainable products are we going to see that are available to people at sensible costing sensible lead times that you know will obviously benefit the environment but still give the end result that people want.

38:54Products have been phased out in the past because they're not sustainable, bad for your health, asbestos for example. And alternatives were found. So it's like, how do we keep doing that with the goal of everyone's aiming for 2030 net zero carbon reductions? It's like, what can we bring in as a messy industry? Which is definitely getting better, but there's always room for improvement. so I think yeah it's kind of seeing what what kind of trends come into this year that we would kind of have been talking about and now it's more of a accessible uh commodity amazing thank you Warren appreciate you coming on sharing your experiences your journeys how things are going to change and from a design from myself sitting on the design side more it's great to have those conversations and like bridge again it's just communication isn't it but to bridge that between the two like division on the site and making it happen and to bridge that.

39:52So thank you very much for joining. It's been great to chat. Perfect. Thank you for having me. Excellent. And if anyone's on and we're talking to more contracts managers, any suggestions, contracts, pre-con, commercial, we want to hear. So in the meantime, like and subscribe. The algorithm will do its thing and we will see you next time. Cheers.

40:18Thank you.