[Greatest Hits] The Power of Storytelling in Workplace Design with Abigail Reynolds, Project Designer at Modus

0:00You're just not giving enough time. No, I think that's one of the biggest challenges. You have so many people involved, client-side, that they hire that almost manage us setting the deadlines and keeping the client at arm's length from us. And it's the biggest challenge because we can dive into the branding as much as we possibly can from the material that they portray. Whether they use social media, their websites, and just anything we can get our hands on or knowing typically how that sort of industry works. But the most valuable thing is speaking to the client and developing it with them and asking really key fundamental questions.

0:37Because it's like if I was to look at your Instagram and then someone says, you need to design your house based off of your Instagram, but I've never spoken to you. I can travel through years and years and think I understand you based off of your Instagram, but then I can speak to you. But your lifestyle has changed. Some of the stuff I've seen or the styles that you've worn and do you know what is a bit like that and as well branding that companies put out is for a client I don't get a huge insight to how they actually work day to day and that's where the problem solving is and if I'm not made aware of what those problems are I'm working off with assumptions I miss it completely because I'm not aware of their problems welcome to space by stansons today i'm chatting to abby reynolds project designer at modus recently ish isn't it yeah quite recently i'm about four months in yeah and but you was at two before anyway so it's kind of yeah so i was part of the group before came out for a little bit still stuck in d &b yeah yeah so it was nice and familiar to go back in yeah when i first started I was like oh I might have like a week or two of you know finding my feet and things like that and it was the opposite it was like okay you've got this induction but actually you can't go and you're coming straight into this project meeting that project meeting so yeah my ease into it but they were like you know the business let's just get going that's good yeah I had no time to get bored or twiddle my thumbs and things like that yeah and the inductions are all done before anyway yeah pretty much the same the same this is the far exit yeah yeah this is how you turn your laptop on oh wicked cool i'm gonna ask you some random questions okay just to get to know you yeah favorite color green oh well done favorite coffee black white where do you get breakfast in the office and what's your favorite pet cat have you got one i have two what color my older one is ginger and then i've got a little one that's a bengal but she's a different um usually the coloring is quite dark she's like a white bengal yeah and are you a steve holiday or beach holiday be depends on the time of year if i can mix the both perfect if not beach favorite emoji probably just a laughing one and who's the last actually run my mom yesterday day wicked yeah cool oh that's fun we just started doing it in the office like these quick five questions I thought I'm gonna just start asking people on the podcast I like that yeah it's fun so rolling straight in I'm gonna ask you about three projects okay first one being an early memory like something that you did um what is something that you did early days that like kind of changed your career or changed how you thought or made you realize you want to do this?

3:34So it was just as I was coming out of uni, I'd been working in architecture practice throughout university, just like an internship one day a week. Yeah. In the last year of that, I'd done their office refit for them. Okay. And then off the back of that, at uni we would do our crits and they would bring external people in. And one of the people that came in, we got along well, he liked my work. And then come at end of graduating, he just sent a message saying, I've got some work. Do you want to freelance with me? So I was like, yes, definitely. Very like reputable architect, worked at great practices.

4:14And then we'd done some workplace design strategies together. And I learned so much from him off of his background, albeit he'd only done one workplace project. it was a four-year long one huge client and had really gone into the intricacies of materiality collaboration effective spaces and like a whole new working concept can you say the client um it was for google yeah very yeah well i his his was for google and then we'd done small workplace strategies for other ones yeah pay it to stage two stage three and it was up to them if they wanted to do anything with it yeah wow so is crit is that a bit scary when that person comes in awful what what absolutely awful but I think it does well for your career okay you go it starts from first year and you pin up all your work onto a board you do them every two weeks um and they're called critiques we would always rename them as criticism and you go up and you present it and they absolutely rip it apart and you keep composure you go home you need to redo the last two weeks of work that's progressive i don't think i did but i probably really wanted to yeah so you look up eyes dry out um but then as it goes on you get used to it and i think the biggest school is you learn not to take it personally because it isn't personal and i think that helps in your career because you're constantly getting feedback from peers or people you work with clients and you all have the same goal so you just work together and it's not personal it's a really good lesson actually i think it's i've never experienced that but i think i'll benefit from experiencing that like just having someone actually leaving your work it's not personal not to get over it yeah i think as well it teaches you to start to think critically about yourself i think a lot of people especially in a creative industry are probably perfectionists but you can so quickly become so like fixated that you're going for one thing that if you don't just step back look at it holistically and other aspects that's when your design can really develop but when you have all of those voices in your head it forces you to step back and think right why are we doing this does it make sense how can we develop from this why haven't you thought about that it's all part of the creative process but I think it helps when I've got so many different influences in my head as well.

6:44I do think that's really mature though. Like I think that's something that some people never learn. I'll take a long time to learn. Yeah. To be able to accept criticism. Like, yeah, I'm just quite a big believer in it. So I like that you picked that up. What did you learn from him? What did I ask? So many things. One thing I've always struggled with is how to present things on a page to, I know the process. I can speak through the process very clearly. but it's what to have on the screen behind me and then more importantly how to lay it out his layouts and how we developed everything there I learned a lot through that just appreciating white space all those simple things but that's something that doesn't come naturally to me I mean also graphic design like presentation design yeah but we have graphic designers so I don't have to worry too much about that now um but I still think about it a lot yeah and that's an area that I've struggled with yeah that was one really big thing just telling the story leading the client through the story and knowing that although we do it day in and day out you're often presenting to people that don't so you need to strip it straight back almost at layman's terms make it super easy clear but bring them on the journey so they get excited and they understand why you've made these decisions the more invested you can get then in your decisions the more successful it will be I love that.

8:09How do you get people excited about your decisions? Like, what do you do actually? I think the biggest thing is telling them the challenges and what's been hard and what you try to do to solve that challenge and then how you've created, how you solve the problem. And I think that is when they're like, because as you're explaining it, they'll be thinking, oh, yeah, I hadn't thought about that. That is a big challenge. and they're trying to come up with the solution, but you're speaking them through your narrative. So at the end, they're like, oh, of course, that makes so much sense. Rather than if I just say, oh, we've done this because of this.

8:44It's not as impactful. It doesn't sell them. It doesn't get them on board. I mean, it can sometimes. Yeah, it's all about the storytelling. That's pretty good. I like the idea of presenting the challenge. four so then they can almost feel the pain before you give them the solution yeah yeah what i went through it's a bit of trauma dumping yeah you've only got it for a minute i had it for two weeks yeah oh actually how long do you have a pitch for before it does like from it varies from project to project but it's a very short time frame it will be the tender will come in you do the mid-bid and then you go to pitch that process anything from shortest is probably two weeks the longest i've had is probably two months um yeah it's challenging because if you're trying to go through the creative process turning things around that quick like what i said about stepping back it becomes much harder because you have a to-do list of everything you need to get done and it's almost like it can be yeah that's the most challenging part one day quite soon probably you're going to be a design director you've got to manifest haven't you hire me put it out in the universe see what happens affirmations yeah totally what's the one thing you're going to do with your team and your like designers and junior designers that you learned from this guy uh study research papers definitely I think creative thinking it can yeah you can learn so much from someone else's research new ideas and you can absorb it how you want to I think another thing is traveling I don't think so much of just traveling to a random city in Europe I think it needs to be very considered and with a goal I think a great place to start is to be an army whether you go the art year or the architecture year just to be immersed in creativity i don't think creativity just because you work in design or architecture is just looking at a building it can be looking at light art concepts and all the different creative fields fashion it can all feed into more ideas textiles materials yeah sustainability things like that ready to get your inspiration girl where do i get i think i try it as hard as i can it's really easy to get fixated on just get up go to work go home do a bit of exercise have dinner i purposely try to slow down and just look around like look for those things that it's so cliche like spark joy yeah i love that yeah i'm totally into that person whatever her name is oh marie yes i literally i'm so obsessed i think i binged watch that netflix show in record timing but it's just appreciating life and yeah you can you can do inspiration from those things so i'd say day to day that's the biggest thing definitely yeah no that's cool so what are you working on now or just finished or just about to start that's really exciting working on so many and so many different ones how many are you working on the ones um i think i'm on about five at the moment they're all at different stages more of them are like pitch mid-tender stage i have two that are going to site very soon so i'll probably talk about one going to site quite soon it's an incredible building 40 lead and hole oh lovely yeah absolutely it's stunning and i got brought onto the project quite late it was all designed by bdg so quite often we'll take things from stage three stage four and that does mean that some design work or enhancements or development is required we have a separate part of the business that does the more technical construction stuff and brings it to life but when they needed design to help enhance i was lucky enough that i got put onto the project so I got to cut out all of the really hard bits and enhance key areas like the auditorium with the reception desk the pre-function bar area so that was a great one because I got to look at materiality and really take inspiration from the building that is already there the reception area and just keep it carrying on through so and I've not done an auditorium before I was going to say, what have we done in an auditorium?

13:23What have I done? Yeah, what did you do in the auditorium? So a lot of it was designed out. So all the seating was designed out, and the seating joinery is incredible. The joiners doing it are really talented, but that is what we wanted to be the main focus, and it's very sleek, and it's that understated luxury. So it was everything else needed to match the quality, but not overshadow these benches. okay yeah and then the challenge is the ceiling higher was standard for 275i but for an auditorium that is very small um so it was all i focused on enhancing the walls to bring in some more texture lighting and things just to make it feel taller and more grand and that was a really fun process to go through yeah we're still developing it a little bit there but it's just the fine details now what are you going to do to make it look taller um so it's timber panels wrapped around the whole auditorium and then they have breaks where it flutes so it flutes thick at the bottom and tapers really thin at the top and then the next one will be thick at the top taper at the bottom and then there's tactical lighting to highlight that just to create some more depth and interest and then no skirting board all of the timber is the same from the floors to the benches to the wall so it's a really calming space let's see it yeah it's gonna lose it yeah it looks great fully lit and then in presentation mode when it's just the walls lit up that looks yeah and you've got the vertical lines yes yeah so that helps obviously make it feel longer and grand yeah sounds amazing yeah and what did you do in reception reception the actual form of the desk was decided and the shape um it was changing the materiality so at the back we had um like a concrete curtain almost and it was complementing that all of the timber panels in that area are black ash and it was really the despect was white stone with a curve white stone with a curve is an incredible amount of waste hard to manufacture and environmentally probably doesn't sit right with a lot of people and even the client as well so we just changed out the materiality we've brought through the black tin bar done just a black stone top but it's very sleek they're gonna just work off ipad so in terms of all the bits that people don't love with like power it's got minimal it's actually got no power to the reception desk there's just a credenza behind it's all hidden power so it's very sleek and it's almost like that whole project is no when you open a product from apple it's like that it's really darker yeah but darker elevated easy very clean very sophisticated yeah that's a nice well yeah that's quite cool being in there if this project was a product what would it be it would be like the vision pros like that and yeah so what's the weirdest material you've worked with weirdest material i've worked with oh that's a great question maybe something when i was back in architecture when we would i was working in a development consultancy and we were doing the remediation well anything from water ingress and things like that but the main one was remediation and flammable facades so it was post grenfell and it initially it was like the very invest investigative work of finding solutions and that took a lot of research now there's a lot of products for it because of the need but at the start that was yeah so many data sheets and things like that and speaking to people and yeah we'd get fire tests done on the materials to see how long they would take to burn you've seen the glazing ever can't you sorry no no but it was a really technical role wow that is so yeah like head hurting stuff yeah yeah but then after you've done a few of them it's probably got the same cladding the same other problems so then you got the same solutions in terms of the creativity there that was challenging but i think what i took the most was making sure people go to sleep safe and that was the thing I probably took the most yeah that is true especially after yeah friend fell yeah yeah does that impact it like stuff still like today it's just the legislation and everything um it's easier now so products will suit it oh this is such so how it actually happened is way back architects had full control of who designed the build the materials and everything and then slowly it's become I don't think watered down is the right word architects is hugely talented but it has become that for different parts of their role other people now do and then come stage three someone else builds it and it's that part where they finish their design they've specified everything that works they've done the research when it goes to the next people that are then still working with the client's best interest but potentially lost this middleman yes they'll be design guardians but if they're consulted as much as they're not as they need to they're probably not 10 years later are they consulted definitely not and it just meant with value engineering and costs that contractors were putting in cheaper materials that are the same but they're actually not the same and over the time that happens and I think that's the perk of design and build actually is that it's almost like how architecture used to be we have full control over what we design and what we build in the material aspect yeah responsibilities I think yeah exactly so the thing happens is yeah that company even if it's not one person it's still that company yeah that is quite yeah I get that.

19:33Yeah, that's valid. Like, yeah, valid for a client making a space for one point of contact to get back to. Yeah, definitely. That's cool. Anything else about that project that we need to keep an eye out for? You know, no? For to let? No. No. Reception and atrium, just keep out eyes peeled. Yeah. Yeah. And the bar area. Oh, bar. But that, yeah, that's a, it's a mirror of the reception. So it's something like design continuity. Yeah. Same sort of language. Yeah. Yeah, nice. Right, so what's your wildest dream? Wildest dream? Yeah, what's a project like your wildest dream? Okay, I actually think about this all the time.

20:10Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, this is going to be fun. So I always love a project that's got a strong brand or a strong concept. So if you're designing an office, it's got a strong brand of concept, yeah. Yeah, so I think for me, that Barbie dream house is definitely the one. that one would excite me a lot because of the brand because of the brand and the concept and how barb like what does barbie look like today and or what does her house look like how does she live and things like that so would you go rogue with barbie or go og i don't think i would go too rogue but i would develop her is she and make her current you develop yeah her she yeah yeah no hershey definitely and then i think i would do like that soft living girl era like subtle luxuries but in the cotswolds something like that would she work yeah she would work because she's modern yeah she'd have a great work-life balance she doesn't need to be like crazy successful or anything like that it's just she's fulfilled in her role and she enjoys it and yeah, always has a bit of time.

21:29Would you have Ken featuring himself? I actually hadn't considered Ken at all. Of course, I don't know. I mean, in the cockswords, she can have her beautiful house, her greenhouse, all of those things. And I don't know, he can, men love like a man cave, don't they? So if we keep it current, he can have, should, guard him. He's got a mansion. Or maybe he can be a farmer next door. Yeah, they're fairly insignificant either way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wasn't going to focus on that part. And still pink? Are you going to change it up? I think it would be a more muted colour palette. Oh, cool. But there would be cues of pink.

22:08Maybe pink, not in the build, but in the accessories. Yeah. So like peonies everywhere, pink, like flowers, pink flowers. I thought you said ponies. Oh, no, no. You said peonies. Pink ponies, yes. Yeah, pink flowers. and just, or maybe like a very muted, like in the cushions, anything that could be swapped out if you wanted it to. But the base would be neutral. Yeah, really neutral. That's cool. Yeah, focus on the view. And then you've got more pink flowers outside. So, yeah. So it's not glam. Not glam, but all of the subtle, innovative, glamorous bits. Yeah. That's cool. Does she cook? Definitely.

22:50Your Barbie cooks? Yeah, she cooks. Yeah, she'll go to the farmer's market. at the weekends. Oh, I see. She's a bit on Earth quite cool. She lives the Cotswolds lifestyle. She's a little bit country, yeah. Yeah, a little bit country, yeah. Is she rollerblade? Oh, can she rollerblade? Yeah. Yeah. She can ice skate. She can horse ride. Yeah. I feel like horse riding is probably more appropriate for the area. But yeah, she can do everything. She's sporty. She has her Pilates in the morning. What's her Pilates studio look like? I don't know. Maybe in the greenhouse. or on like a terrace outside or she can have an indoor pilates studio.

23:29She can have both. Yeah, all three. Yeah. It'll be at home though. Yeah, she wouldn't go anywhere. No, no, no. I wish you actually. All the home comforts. I think I'm just designing my dream home. I think that's what it is. Yeah, would you be a Cutsworlder or would you miss the city? I don't think I'd miss the city. I would miss it right now, but give it like five years, I'd probably miss it. You'd be fine? Yeah, I'd be absolutely fine. So you're getting fucked up? Yeah, or somewhere in the countryside or by the water, connect with nature, long walks. You like that, don't they? I love it, yeah.

24:11So would you have a home gym or go to a gym? Home gym. I have a favourite gym. Do you go to a gym? I do. So there's one in my building, but it's very small. Yeah. But if there's more than two, three people in there, I'm like, yeah, no, I'm going out. But it's not the people that intimidate me. It's the machines. Okay. So what machines do you? Dumbbells. Explosively. Well, it's like, why I'm asking these questions? Actually, because I can't go to a gym. Yeah. I just have this, I can like smell ego and I can like feel ego and it makes me very uncomfortable. Yeah. So I have it all at home. I like that.

24:53and I'm actually just getting boxing training at a moment and so I have to go to a gym to get boxing training and I go to and I just feel so like a fish out of water yeah something about a gym I think you're meant like people tell me you're just meant to just walk in there and okay do your thing get in get out but I don't feel that I feel like I worry about like what I'm wearing or how I look when I'm doing the exercises if I'm doing it wrong with people more experienced they're looking at me I don't I just can't lose that feeling so no when I do go it's like big baggy hoodie hat headphones like I'm unrecognizable that's an idea yeah just like a duvet yeah yeah fair enough so you mostly with gym at home yeah but I'm gonna run just so I'm not at the gym and then finish up with like a quick 20-minute workout yeah fair enough i'm always cool though yeah it's funny i actually have you been to gym box no it's like a really different is it scary they're so they're um we're getting totally off like it's cool it's their branding i think that scares me because it's very industrial with the neon lights outside there's one at our office that I see and I'm like well they're saying is working out should be like going out that's their saying and so it's actually dark going to a club okay and so they have like djs and that's quite cool and so yeah it is actually really cool yeah it is really really cool I just can't get away from like all these people that are like six times the size of me and I'm just like oh like then if it's darker and bright light that would help the only thing i'd be like this music is great but i'm drinking my water like i now want to go get a gin and tonic i've done my workout now i want to go out i have a quick shower and does anyone want to go grab a drink oh god oh i couldn't start my day like that oh you can't that would be no it'd have to be much slower so you work out at the end of the day yeah yoga or pilates something more peaceful oh okay no i'm literally heavy in the morning but could you do like a rave that early i don't know i don't go partying no i go to the gym that early but like a gym rave is that what it's like no what i'd do it in my garage so that i am but yeah i do it first first first thing i wake up and strotter with ourselves into the gym no i'm evening i think I'm I used to swim competitively and that was like yeah the training was half five to half seven every morning I'm used to train eight times a week twice on a Wednesday and jumping in a freezing cold pool at half past five for my whole childhood I'm just no I don't want to work out early definitely not oh fair enough to be honest I do think it's I do think I'm quite unusual working out early but then just like I say against gym box boxing training I'd see a lot of people there early I'm like wow I think it does set you up for the day yeah I think that's one strong benefit and then it's done as well you don't have to think about it when you get home yeah exactly yeah I'm too tight when I get home would you want to be a design director ever I've asked you that yeah I think I see my career developing in so many different ways yeah I know at heart I'm a creative yeah um so i think as long as i'm always learning creatively i don't think it necessarily needs to be learning creatively on the software but like creative concepts or like it could still be i would love interiors definitely but like fashion or photography just anything that makes me feel like creative solving a problem anything aesthetic we don't struggle with that no nothing more than typical really yeah but fashion i love yeah yeah yeah is the industry a bit rubbish though so fashion yeah it's like quite a sort of egotistical industry it probably is yeah and i know starting out to get opportunities is not impossible but if you want to get paid and have an opportunity i don't know how well those two things work hand in hand i think it's the same for interiors though when you're starting out you think how on earth do i even get into this the same way i went like architecture contractor side and then dmb it's like i've done so many different routes when i graduated i didn't even know design and build was an industry so there can still be so much to learn there's probably like a fashion like sector or fashion yeah even though it exists yeah i love fashion i would love to do i love to do like um you know like when you're styling people that's yeah one of my friends does that and she loves it does men's styling and she's so talented but what she's made really cool is she styles them but then she could always wear their clothes and look better even though it's all men's clothing her street style was incredible yeah that's cool yeah really really cool something to get into yeah i don't know if i'm edgy enough for that but i can appreciate it and she looks great yeah exactly i'm not modern enough i'm not young enough that's not true no oh yeah that's so interesting what are you how long have you been in dnb then in dnb just over three years no time flies isn't it it does but three years at the same time isn't a huge amount of time really all post-covid though all post-covid yes but when i actually started out in workplace i had done it pre-covid yeah um where i feel like i learned the majority of what i still know today yeah but i think what was most interesting is the things i learned then are accurate to today so it was almost like I fast-tracked learned and would taught them before the industry almost caught on it was a bit it's taken a delay to come from architects through to design and build slightly and I would say that D &B are experts in workplace design but as these you can I can see the concepts coming through and then I'm like guys I've been telling you this for ages because you've been in dnb yeah yeah but then as well through dnb i've gone to three different design and build practices two are under the same umbrella but i've been a i think i'm just always curious to learn i've been able to take all the best things and learn the best things and keep moving forward as soon as i feel like i've learned everything i can in one place i start thinking I just have to stay creative actually that is something that you are really good at and I wanted to ask you about was D &B is messy isn't it it's a messy industry like in the sense of I don't know you don't really get enough time to to

32:15build your concepts out and to actually truly understand the brand deeply understand brand then design for them and actually develop something that really meaningful and that really heartfelt like you're just you're just not given enough time no i think that's one of the biggest challenges you have so many people involved client side that they hire that almost manage us setting the deadlines and keeping the client at arm's length from us and it's the biggest challenge because we can dive into the branding as much as we possibly can from the material that they portray so whether they use social media their websites and just anything we can get our hands on or knowing typically how that sort of industry works but the most valuable thing is speaking to the client and developing it with them and asking really key fundamental questions because it's like if I was to look at your Instagram and then someone says you need I need to design your house based off of your Instagram but I've never spoken to you I can trowel through years and years and think I understand you based off of your Instagram but then I can speak to you but your lifestyle's changed since some of the stuff I've seen or the styles that you've worn do you know what I mean it's a bit like that and as well branding that companies put out is for a client I don't get a huge insight to how they actually work day to day and that's where the problem solving is and if I'm not made aware of what those problems are I'm working off with assumptions and I can either hit the nail on the head or miss it completely because I'm not aware with their problems you know I answer a brief of we need 160 desks five front of house meeting rooms five back of house meeting rooms three collaboration points and it's like well what are your front of house meeting rooms for obviously for clients but what sort of clients how do those meetings go is it someone presenting is it a big discussion around the table how often do they happen back of houses well these meetings are you jumping on a call is it internal meetings only how do those meeting rooms look do they need to be formal do they need to be a hybrid between formal or informal if that's the case why don't they not be a meeting room and be a collaboration space and then what does your collaboration space look like is it is it a configuration of soft seating boring is it a configuration of high desk higher tables or low tables also boring but if we actually think oh when you collaborate you do it this way so our solution would be this it makes a lot of sense so a good example is in a boardroom or a posh meeting room anyone senior they're used to it they're pretty comfortable speaking in there in a room full of people anyone more junior especially if they're a young company anyone more junior may feel uncomfortable to speak because they may feel inexperienced they may be nervous they may not be fully confident in what they're saying so those meetings maybe aren't the most effective for them but then if you think about the more informal places or collaboration if you make it more comfortable like inspired from a tea point and you go there and you you have your cup of tea and you just chat and maybe there's no laptops and just pieces of paper those more junior people are going to probably associate that to not realizing it but being at home around their dining table coffee table and feeling comfortable enough to say something and it could be wrong but sometimes they're the best ideas yeah so it's making sure that we're thinking of solutions that nurture all of the talent ultimately to make everyone more productive yeah and make more money yeah and it's those things that we assume sometimes and that's the most challenging part yeah as you're talking I'm thinking two things that one is company culture it's really hard to I mean I know everybody knows what company culture is but like how to really tangibly like dig into that explain that and like pick that to pass but how do you want people to meet is it very fun is it very carefree or or is it like more structured or what or whatever it is but it's actually I'm actually um I was gonna say reading I don't read any books i listen to books um i'm listening to a book for by kim scott the radical candle super um actually recommend it to anyone that like wants to yeah listen about like sort of communication basically like direct communication and she was talking about like getting the best out people being a kick-ass boss is her thing and she says about exactly that like the posh boardroom you get a certain people talking but then and to have that meeting to hear from those people but then to take out another meeting and go to a workshop environment and with the more juniors where they feel that they can bounce out ideas and like really openly challenge each other and it's more like people peer to peer and that people then the best ideas get thrashed out definitely and then bring them together and it's so it's just like it's not like wow that's changed the world but at the same time it's easier to forget that it's easier to get it's not like it's totally game-changing like no one's ever said that before but at the same time like who's doing that like who's actually asking those questions yeah it would be some typically someone that doesn't work in design we're just the the agent for the client and they want control over the often they want control over the process to you go to your pitch and you have a score sheet yeah and you have your agenda of how you should set things up but it may not fit into the flow of how we've designed and then our story can become harder to follow sometimes you say we just have to do it this way but when you're against the scoring sheet if you're not careful if the agents can't follow it along yeah and then they want to be able to just basically present scores to the client to help them make the decision but yeah that's the biggest thing we constantly need to challenge the agents to give us more client time and often it will come with a bit of a disclaimer of whatever you ask we're going to let everyone else know that's pitching for the job and it's like great like okay you know this information has come from us the client will probably know it's come from us from the mid bid and if we're a step ahead or if they do the same thing and we then get more information as well it helps everyone out let's try and pitch and win the job at the end of the day I really hope everyone pitching on product projects genuinely wants to create the best office yeah for the client I do think though that it should be weighted to the people that are asking the questions because if someone can't be bothered or hasn't thought to ask the question i'm a bit worried about them do you know what i mean yeah so if you're going in there and you're like i want more times i need to know this i need to know that i need to know the third thing okay share the information like like yes or no like fair enough i don't know what i think about that but really that's your information because you've bothered to find out design integrity as well yeah we're sharing our plans or all of our concepts yeah and you as a designer have been bothered to think about that so it's kind of like you should almost have one out and it's part of the process and it's how you should win a pitch and if you're if you're on the money and they're answering your questions and you're able to develop it's great and it is design integrity and a lot of people are funny whether we should share it or not but you also have to think you need to maintain a relationship with the agent as well so if we then start being too difficult it's hard our hands are constantly tied to what we've been told if you could change design and build what would you do you'd like to change the whole industry focus on the design not just the build and what does that look like it means the through the 10 it's really challenging so so many people but the initial stages we need to focus on the design and the design only there needs to be trust that when it comes to the mechanical and sub-ease drawings and things like that we do this day in day out we can we can do that we don't well I understand we need to prove ourselves and provide for them to trust us but that first part because it's so compressed really needs to be design-led, design-focused, initially conceptual until you're able to create something.

41:11And as much of that to be client-facing as possible, initially start off with workshops, we go away, we then digest that information. I think, I don't love the idea of presenting unfinished work, but I think through that process, because it's so short, I think you have to. And if it allows the clients to feel like they've had their design input as well great because they work their day in day out although I design offices day in day out I don't fully I can't fully understand their culture without working there I can only take what they've said so I think initially primarily design focused and then as soon as that bit is over hand it over to get everything costed and go from there I know it's challenging because you're designing if their budget is three million pounds and then oops through the design we've spent six you know then we have to value engineer but I also then do think there's a way that you can value engineer without compromising the design I think there's smarter ways but at the end of the day if you are asking people to design you an office in two to four weeks it's really hard without working crazy hours to make an office that's actually going to be functional and change and these people are investing a lot of money if it's a new office if they're fitting out their existing space we've got to pay for everything they've got to think about the hassle if if they need to everyone to work from home for the build time so I think it's it's a shame that clients don't necessarily always appreciate or maybe they're advised that this is this is normal but I think the design stage if it can't be made longer it needs to be design focused not have all the other parties involved in the mix key decision makers people yeah key decision makers so that things can move forward design workshops and then get it costed not a costly battle so you say you're having to work up really long hours when you're on a pitch or what's that time would you begin home um I think it varies on how many projects you're on the company that you work at the resources that you have or the biggest one is the design challenges that you personally face and I always call it like I'm going to space plan blind and it's where I've looked at this one space plan for so long that I can't I can't see any other options or I can't see my mistakes and it's almost like I to switch off for a bit and come back to it and then I go in the next day and I think why did I do that and it's because I've gone spaceman blind so sometimes it's a personal thing of just the creative journey you personally need to go on but the real answer long hours definitely long hours yeah if you're working on a pitch you're going to be pulling some shifts and how long should the design process be in the ideal world ideal world I know probably going to say you're going say project by project basis but if just a rule of that rule of i think oh my god three months would be incredible the only risk is you don't before you've won a project you're working unpaid um so in terms of companies in dnb why would they want to do that that's three months unpaid work but if there could be more of that high i don't know how it would work financially because there's no way the client is going to be paying three different d &b companies to design it out for that long but i think three months we could provide some really effective solutions and do some real research not just on the brand but other concepts and ideas of what a workspace should look like yeah that would be great so maybe like if the client chose the company they're going with based on case studies and brand or meeting us it's all the people yeah without you actually doing any design work and then they paid you like for three months to do the design work so it's not free because then they get a different there's a little bit of trad yes but then the build with you as well but instead of just winning the design project like trad do you're going to win the whole project yeah that's what the world needs to do that would be incredible that's changing but you know as well architecture some of the like the leading architecture practices are like 75 margins and that's the same margin as that art and that's because architecture is an art why in design and build should our art as a designer be different or feel cheap because it's not come at a cost and yeah there's design fees once you win but it's never going to cover the actual yeah your design would be working at a loss do you think there needs to almost be like a brand in design and build like there is an architecture though because like yeah there is like games like it's just like you want them yeah regardless of what they cost if that's what you want that's where you go it's kind of if you want an iphone i'm really sorry but like samsung don't sell iphone it just is what it is and you pay what you pay um do dmb need that i think that would be an absolute game changer it's although it's a big market it's also a very small market most of the people that work at one have worked at others and it is you just kind of people tend to jump from one to the other so I think in terms of ideas and experience there's not that like what's next and everyone almost feels too nervous to do something brand wise of their own personal brand that is unique or out of water I genuinely think once the first person creates that all of the other dmb places will it's just that first person to make the leap and it's true you can work with some huge clients um like real household names and designer builder will be screaming oh we work with them but then you think wait we've worked with them but are they going to post or say oh yeah we worked with you and that's the bit that needs to change because the second they were working with like the Zaha Fossett and Partners they would be screaming as well and I think if we really hone in on our our art and our brand as a company as a company yeah that would be incredible yeah it would be challenging because no one has done it or if they have they tried but yeah I think that would be yeah I can see that almost we value our employees so much we hired x y and z design and build company to like manage our office yeah like we we literally just think so much about people or our people do the best work so our clients get the best service so we went with this brand I think it's almost like yeah we give people iPhones because we care about them more we give people Macs because they're yeah is that the same kind of mentality mentality you're most proud to do it aren't you you're not quiet about it yeah and then from the get so you have the trust that oh they're who they are they're going to create great products it's not uncertainty yeah yeah not as salesy it's built of trust that would be incredible yeah no that's wicked but i'm going to wrap up i'm going to ask you a last question now okay i'm excited what is your sorry i'm excited what is a favorite book or podcast that you listen to that everyone should be listening to it okay i'm gonna do podcast yeah it's a new one or new ish rochelle humes just launched ladies who launch so it's women that have created at the moment incredible businesses so joe maline's been on there um conor walker house of cb but now she's gonna start doing podcasts with small businesses to see if she can connect people and they're really interesting conversations like an hour long each one I just fit in when I do my run you okay you're okay yeah I don't listen to podcasts it really straight I know I know it's really strange isn't it but it's true it just is what it is give one of those ones a listen see what you think yeah well that's cool I love that I love businessy things yeah books and stuff so yeah okay well thank you so much Abby you've been absolutely wicked so interesting but quite excited to see the Barbie house come to part i might have to get it rendered up yeah leaden hall sounds amazing as well so that's cool i'd love to change the dmv world that's that totally a big gap waiting to happen yeah to leave there and yeah amazing chat thank you very much thank you for having me you're welcome