How Gen Z Are Rethinking Sustainability & Neurodivergent Design in the Workplace : Mix 30 under 30 Series

0:00It's such a big conversation at the moment and I think it's recognising that we call it neurodivergent but if you actually look into it probably about 80 % of people fit that category. So what we're designing for is a norm that isn't actually the norm, it's about 20 % of people. So we're designing spaces that are actually only suitable for 20 % of people, whether that's through physical or mental disability of some kind. which means like how are we actually successfully designing spaces if only 20 % of people are ever going to be catered for in that environment? It's kind of part of that wider conversation of how do we make sure that when we are designing spaces we're considering everyone.

0:33One of the first things I thought as a designer was the thought that somebody in a wheelchair couldn't use one of my spaces because I had been careless in designing it. That's a horrible thing to think that you've just neglected to consider those people in your design. What's the point then? It feels like you need to make sure you're thinking about everyone. Neurodiversity fits in that nicely within the workplace as well. Space by Stanson, thank you so much for tuning in. This is my first of anything like this. So A, we got two guests, which is wicked. And B, it's I'm interviewing Mix 30 Under 30, rising stars of 2025 and six.

1:09Yeah, big bit of thinking. So I've got Eleanor from Layard. We're wondering if it is lanyard or layered, but it's definitely layered. Apparently it's Definitely layered. Head of workspace. So fancy. I know, I know. It's a big title, isn't it? It's... And Sarah Jolie. Not Jolie. No, it's Jolie. Say it how you like. I like... More go with the French. Yeah, French. It sounds very bougie. I can do the whole je bit, so I'm quite proud of myself, you know what I mean? Yeah, so interior designer at Jolie, which is in America, Manchester. You've travelled down to Manchester. Thank you so much. Oh, really?

1:47Oh, my goodness. nice on a train yeah wild and now here she is um in a showroom in a different space we've like kind of put together a little zone for this because it's just going to be very i don't know basically just join in which is basically like a coffee chat what did you do when you first heard that you were like an excited did you know it was coming no idea i was so sure i was working at home and then frankie our ceo just put in on our channel like congratulations and i thought what the hell i felt like what the hell just happened and i had so i had to call my sister i was like helen you'll never guess what um yeah such a shock but yeah such a little a lovely surprise really yeah wicked and so you celebrate went out celebrated what happened i had a little few drinks with my friend down in manchester which is lovely nice cool and did you go bonkers i can't imagine you're doing it no yeah i did so we're in an in-person meeting they told me and I was like you know and I was like just my normal self um but yeah I was I at first I was like surely not you know because I think I don't know if it's like I see it's like a perception of like when you start out your own career as into a designer you're like you kind of look at Nick and you're like oh my god that's like the the thing isn't it right and you can't imagine yourself that you'd ever be recognized by something like that so it was it was pretty cool I'm wicked it's really cool do you get loads of info people messaging and stuff is it like being a separatist

3:18it's just yeah there's a lot of like lovely messages from suppliers and then yeah all my friends are so lovely I feel like because it's called the 30 under 30 I'm like it's like Forbes they were like oh my god you're going to be in Forbes the Forbes the Forbes 30 what is it like 30 under 30 billionaires or something like very far off from that but it's fine similar sort of thing though isn't it yeah similar it's the interior's version of that right interior's version of that yeah done I'll I'll just bring up Forbes after this yeah make sure we're on the list right yeah good and so yeah down to your things that you're doing today like what what do you like what are you your work what your style of work what do you do why do you think you picked it up what is it what have you done it's a lot of coffee is that why you got the award a lot of coffee yeah yeah um you know what i think for me like i at the moment i spend a lot more time leading the team so um my role as head of workplace is kind of a lot more um you know i might initially engage the clients but it's a lot more just supporting the wider team and making sure that you know they kind of every project that we put out is right and fits the brief that obviously the clients give us but also what we're trying to represent as a company um so i do spend a lot of time out and about you know going all the way around the country visiting clients um but I think it's just really exciting for me to you know have my team and like see how amazing they all are to be honest like I feel like that's more what it is it's their their part of that for me like it's not a singular thing it feels like they're the reason I've been able to get to this point really yeah so do you get nominated for it because of leading the team is that why so how do you win it what how can i win it i mean except for i'm not under 30 but other than that i think that probably plays a part in it um obviously we've met before because we were on a panel about neurodiversity so it's something i'm very passionate about talking about because through workplace design i kind of was like exploring neurodiversity and i wasn't oh this is this is suspicious so i went and had an autism and i am autistic and i was like oh there we go but it kind of it came from my work without my work I would never have taken that avenue so it was a big thing for me to kind of go down that path and now when I'm designing I'm so conscious about that and how different people experience spaces and it's really kind of fed into my work so I think that's played quite a big part of it as well and do you know how you got the award like any no I think that the powers that be nominating me um very yeah and then I got the message so yeah I've just been I can say like I get to work I make so many different stages of projects I do quite a lot of creative pitches which is really fun because that's just like that's business go wild go nuts be kaput you creative and then but then you also get to work on sort of stage 2 the stage 3 is where it's a bit more technical or doing a lot of 3D modelling or more like specking everything no not really but I did do my undergrad was in architecture so I did come from a bit of a technical oh a bit then they're not I I've really enjoyed the more creative side of things is where I really like like to be do you oh nice and so they don't they don't really know what's on these specific projects that kind of well like boom-bastic wow ones that it's hard a lot of the pictures that I've done I've really like them wow because that's when you could like you don't have the budget or so you just go like like hotel ones that are really fun to do and then you need a hotel we've started getting into it yeah it's a whole nother It's fun, isn't it?

6:56Because the briefs are a little bit more, like obviously this is the basis of a hotel, but the briefs tend to be a bit more open. Yeah. We started doing a lot more, so we have a side part of the business called Designer's Touch, which is all about the decorative elements from the crockery to what wall art you have. That's really fun. That's where I come in. I like the specking. Sometimes it's just like, you're just shopping really, aren't you? Yeah, it's something we've done. When you start like, yeah, specking about cutlery and stuff, don't know what's going on. There was one really cool project we did, which is like one of the workplace-y one, was in, it was actually going in Germany and it was sort of a really cool like concrete building trying to keep that kind of architecture over there.

7:35But it was like all these amazing Patreon spaces and this building was going to be like opposite, it was going to be flats, it was going to be like a lounge so it was going to have everything in it basically. So that was a really cool one to be on. Did you just go to Germany? No. Maybe next time. No, maybe something. Get the next one in LA. And then you go to it. I'll put you for all of the works. Yeah, exactly. But they are in America. Yeah. Have you been to America? Not yet, but yeah. The officers, yeah. Sell up. Hey, he's over here. I'm in porn person now. I hate charting that we could send a link to on the recording.

8:09Oh, that's nice. Good. And how are you going to change the world, Sarah? What are you going to do? What's your... This was like those pageants. And they're like, hey, what would you do? And they're like, world peace. You know, the pageants. I'll start with where we're peace. Yeah, and what we'll go on to. I always think, like, younger designers, like, come back, they haven't got tainted is probably the right word. Like, because you've been in the industry for a long time, you start to do the norm. Right, it's just it, isn't it? You do, like, you've seen this, you've done it, it works. And no disrespect, there's wicked designs out there, but I feel like when you're just coming into your workforce in your kind of first five years, you're kind of, you're not kind of following any kind of rules because you're still making burnt yeah nah not being burnt yet so i think to me it might sound really obvious but kind of the sustainability aspect of things i think it's so important and i think trying not to see it as like that tip box and try to see it as like starting before you use heart designing like look at it from they dot and how you carry it through i think it's so important because i don't think we really got a choice anymore um which is quite a negative topic but I think it's so important there's any ways we can weave it in into the design so that's just like through materials or like how many finishes you're actually putting into a project and how you can still try to have that kind of layered and homely and that design which obviously we do quite like a sensory design how you can still have all that but with the environment in mind and how you can I don't know what the word is kind of push that ethos without packing a room full of like carbon heavy kind of premiering which I think is really important really mindful really yeah yeah really like quite selective about that I think is really important I do find the Jolie designs have you ever seen them?

9:59I have they look lovely so dreamy they are so dreamy they're sun to work so calm yeah I think that's what's really great about working at Jolie is kind of that you start off with how you want to feel in space and so then you'll do sort of and then from that from the words you get if you want to be calm and energetic lively joyful however you want to feel in the space and then from that kind of derive the colour palette and so kind of go into the colour psychology then you layer in kind of what fragrances kind of also help you feel that way which is something I find really really interesting so then we'll do our presentations or do sort of we'll have to do the colour theory the colour palette we'll have a song like a soundtrack for each space and then we'll have little like scent samples that we pass around to try and give that whole like jolly effects and did that whole vibe of how if you take like the idea the whole way how successful it can be and how it can really know you suppose come alive yeah i think it's so important as well because like i was at a talk not long ago it was that case sergeant i don't know if you know she's from hock and she was talking about how like like um science fiction got so many things right one of the things they got wrong was the interpretation of women was one thing but one thing we got really wrong is although technology has advanced so much in even a lot of sci-fi you see it's very cold and very clinical and very like masculine and what we actually find is that because we've advanced technology so much we've distanced ourselves from the human so much that people want designs that are going to bring them back which is where all of this sensory experience is so important because we've distanced ourselves so far from each other through technology that now it's like how do we bring everyone back in and you know it's that texture and you know what what you're smelling what you're seeing it's so important i don't know if it's because technology is such like a prevalent path i think now you're noticing it more the people kind of really coming back for that they want that layer they want that and it's not saying we're saying no technology the technology is still there it's just what's around it it's like we don't need to be cold and clinical we can have something that feels nice and cozy yeah people get scared to say cozy especially in a workplace setting i'm like why would it why should not feel cozy what's wrong with that feel at home you know that saying you're like the people that you work the people that you spend the most time with like i always think it applies to the spaces as well if you're literally if you live in a crap hole or oh that's probably a bit strong but you get my vibe like or you work in a dump i think you get like the place that you are so if you work in a nice place it's like cozy let's go with that like I think you end up a more emotionally intelligent person you're in a better environment you'll do best do it yeah I so agree it's I really like hearing someone say they're doing sustainability not tick box not that anyone turns around to me and says I'm doing sustainability to tick box like I've never heard that either but I do feel like it does happen a lot yeah and it's really it's a bit like health and safety it's just like we're doing this and we're doing that because we have to do it and not because we like love everyone being ridiculously safe and we should do it and we should do it more from that reason see it more as that kind of mindset all the way through rub than just kind of oh we should probably do something a bit environmentally conscious of like put that in yeah actually because when you integrate it into the design or design out stuff or designing stuff like really mindfully it totally changes but it goes all that to start like always do you know i mean so what's your what's your thing and now like what neurodiversity is that your yeah do you know i think i think it's such a big conversation at the moment and i think it's recognizing that like it's still we call it neurodivergency whatever but if you actually look into it probably about like 80 percent of people fit that category So what we're designing for is a norm that isn't actually the norm.

13:58It's about 20 % of people. So we're designing spaces that are actually only suitable to their best for 20 % of people, whether that's through physical or mental disability of some kind. Yeah. Which means how are we actually successfully designing spaces with only 20 % of people are ever going to be catered for in that environment? So I think it's kind of part of that wider conversation of how do we make sure that when we are designing spaces we're considering everyone um I remember like one of the first things I thought was a designer was the thought that somebody in a wheelchair couldn't use one of my spaces because I had been careless and designing it I was like that's a horrible thing to think I think you know that you've just neglected to consider those people in your design because what's the point then it feels like you need to make sure you're thinking about everyone and neurodiversity fits in that and nicely within the workplace as well because obviously it's waste most of the time and it's how do we actually nurture those those minds because a lot of people who are neurodiverse you know that skill set is really fundamental within the workplace actually it's not a hindrance to people working it's actually helping everybody to have those different types of people and it's just making sure that we create spaces that actually work with everyone in mind which isn't the way we've been working for however many years really true because also like neurodivergent people are often like really geniuses in their area do you know i mean i've found through like i've interviewed k sergeant on the podcast and others as well and got into neurodiversity and a bit like you actually like talking about it you're like oh my goodness like some of those things like i definitely have some of them things and i think like everybody does it's not neurodiverse is a bit of a rubbish word because it's not it sounds bad but it's not actually it's just normal it's just like if you just said like i've got a bit of bad attention span or something like that it doesn't sort of shock anyone do you know i mean it just actually is the norm we just don't treat it that way um and i think there's just and like you said with the you know the skill sets obviously we're based in cambridge there's a lot of like tech and life science in cambridge and you know when they're kind of trying to recruit these these these talents you know a lot of them do come from a diverse background so we do have to consider those things because you know that person could be the next line to create something that you know could change the world and we need to make sure that we're creating the right environments to be able to allow that to happen really yeah i do love that it's a really nice balance it's actually a really perfect picture of how i think gen z do and like the new designers are changing design change the world okay we will do world peace as well but it's gonna be like they are going to be more mindfully designed they are going to be more sustainable they are going to be more inclusive like all of these things it's like gone beyond just like um what's the flipping word um the bare minimum don't you bare minimum yeah but when like boys and girls get the same equal opportunities it's not that i mean that's so like that was so kind of probably my era when that was a thing like the um gender equality or whatever and now it's not that i mean that's kind of come and gone and it's now more about acknowledging the differences and saying like really yeah i think it's so important and designing and now everything has to i've had this conversation with somebody but i haven't really got a sustainable um aesthetic in terms of design and she didn't have to look sustainable no that's something that we're like i'm always trying to find like new materials that are sustainable but don't look like you know like recycled plastic there are so many cores out there that deserve more attention there's one i was looking at for a project to the minute uh it's actually like an amenity within a workspace and it's a solid surface but it's made from recycled e-waste and recycled yeah like electrical oh cables oh that does and then actually like coffee husks so like there's loads of coffee waste because we consume so much coffee and it's like husks around the coffee clean the coffee pop other thing and they make they mix them and they have these really lovely warm colours it's like a really cool textured surface but it doesn't look or it doesn't look like you you pick it because it looks cool not just because it's sustainable does it smell nice?

18:23doesn't have a smell oh I'm trying to scratch I would have did stiffen again. I tried. I bet you did. It's not like anything. Oh, no, that's nice. So, right, different question. What was the biggest mistake you made? Like, kind of that. Like, what's your light bulb moment? Like, when do you think, oh, because you can must, have you made mistakes yet? I mean, in my life. Now we're talking. How deep do you want to go? How deep are we getting? I think it's difficult to define because what's your light bulb moment when you like you talked to me about how you found out about the university things I think that's quite a light bulb do you know what I think um it was quite a slow burn to be honest um it wasn't like a very sudden thing I think in the back of my mind I was consciously aware but I was like I'm just a little bit like I'm just a little bit or something you know it's fine it's fine and then I think it was just kind of engaging more in those conversations because I was conscious as a designer that I wanted to kind of make sure that I understood as much as possible because whether you are or aren't neurodivergent it's important to understand each other right yeah regardless so and I think it was just kind of also just as our workplace got bigger and dealing with more people and obviously my role expanding and I was dealing with more people and you know knowing how to kind of have conversations with different people whether it's suppliers contractors which they're very different types So if people, like a conversation I might have with you is very different to someone I'd have with a builder.

19:53Really? You know, and I think. I'm a felicit. When you add into the mix being a woman as well, like I'm sure you're as rude. It's frustrating. It's so frustrating when you were in such a male dominated environment and you're a young woman and they're just like, why is this child talking to me? Yes. Yeah. So is that actually the thing? It is. I mean, because I can't believe it because I just think most of designers are young women. like you wouldn't if like um no disrespect if an older guy came to me i'd be like are you sort of creative enough have you got enough flair like no joke it's when they have to prove themselves more i think but if i see a young girl i'm like yeah they've got again i think it depends on the setting because i think in this world of like the furniture design and stuff it's still quite it's quite nice it's a nice little bubble but it's when you get more into that property like landlord contract of setting that's a lot more male still and it's a lot more old school and traditional and they have their very old school values and we kind of when you come in and say I'm like I'm an interior designer and I need to make it look really nice they're all like what the hell's going on like this isn't something that's needed in their mind you bring up sustainability they're like no get out the window you know so it's just we're constantly kind of fighting those fights I think yeah that is i said that that equality thing was ham and gone and i'm you're clearly proving me wrong but that should so we should so be like age as well is another thing like we should so be over that yeah there's definitely like a barrier with people thinking because they're older they're more knowledgeable and i think they're such even at my age i'm like i love talking to students i want to hear what students have to say because they've got really important you know they might be thinking things that I've not even considered yet and a fear of being like that old person that's like back in my day yeah you know I also think that people in my day no I think people like today are learning much faster because of like if you think about it like you can access like all the top minds through podcasts news AI like before like if I was to go and like have a conversation with like Stephen Bartlett or something like that, that would have been quite a big deal.

22:09Like I'd have had to be quite privileged. I would have had to somehow get in front of him and have like 30 minutes or whatever. But now I can, he dropped, I don't know, he dropped every day or, do you know what I mean? Yeah. There's so much information. The information's so accessible. Much information. So like just your wealth out there. It's almost Tim Hutt. I know. It's all a lot. It's all over a world with. Yeah. So like I think like people have got more, much, much, much more data and information and intelligent so they can learn much faster probably a bit fusing out for the brain but yeah no it's interesting so equality isn't sorted when you look well after well people get onto that yeah that's a nice one do you write up a list yeah i know damn oh dear did you have a light bulb moment sarah was it i don't know if it's a light bulb moment i think it kind of started in my probably in like my final year of uni when I was doing my dissertation I was looking at how kind of how colour theory can make you feel in the space and that's kind of what my disc was on so I was looking at a couple of like I had to look at like an old building and a new building and how colour was incorporated into that because I had some really like I think statistics and then there was one that was really amazing in Japan it's a bit of a random one but they had a really sad and really bad suicide problem at train stations in japan so they put loads of blue lights it's got quite deep quite quick i'll bring it back after they put loads of blue light in it and it the rate of suicides dropped like it was incredible and so then i that i was kind of in the lack of how powerful color could be and then i got after that i got my job at jailey and obviously that's all like sensory crazy so then that's kind of where i really got to sit and learn about not just colour but fragrance which is such an interesting one and how sound and how you can get all the senses like even like if you're doing a restaurant or there's a food offering how the taste of that and how you can kind of mix it all in yeah I think that's kind of my kind of like moment of design is it's not just about aesthetics it can be so much more than that and how you feel in a space is so important but coming back to the new diversity thing like how you feel in a space controls how you act on the same 100 so i think there is a misinterpretation sometimes in a diversity that they're like if you're not averse you want like a really plain really like simple space that's just not going to stimulate you like that's not what neurodiversity is like there are some things that might be overstimulating but you can also be under stimulated and you know as a designer i'm really into color i love color and texture and things like that and it's just making sure that you consider what textures might not be appropriate but that's not to say that you avoid all textures completely every kind of person that's neurodivergent still seeking some sort of stimulus it's just being conscious of things that might be considered bad like freely overbearing lights and specific smells and particularly strong smells but there's a way to kind of you know monitor those and this is also masking bad smells yeah really important as well through sensor restoration so it kind of all weaves into one another yeah the neurodiversity thing is such a it's such a massively i mean you could talk like days just on that because we almost need to stop thinking of it as this elite like special bonkers group of people that we're trying to look after and just more just think almost what you're saying sarah just like sensory design how can we just incorporate like how can we help people feel their best because everybody needs like you don't have to be wacko to be like oh and today I need a focus space because I'm just busy and I'm a bit fused out and there's loads happening at home or like the train journey designing for everyone benefits yeah everyone you know I think everybody has that don't they like they have a busy home life or they had a bad train journey or they just got off like a tough call to a client or a HR or whatever and they need to be like I need my space and it might be a bit bit calmer and a bit whatever and then I think everybody also has the same like indifferent scale of need but like some need of like social battery and go and recharge and plug in and talk to people like there's very few people that literally want to sit on their own in a plain white room but we're not talking about that so it's kind of like getting over this I think the biggest thing with neurodiversity and like design is like getting over this like thing that we're doing something really wacko and it's just actually we're just helping everyone have a better life Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

26:41A quality of life. It was like such simple things, just instead of like having like more of a timber worked up instead of a cold one, it's warmer to the touch. Absolutely. You can do so many nice little, beautiful little touches that can just make a space just for so much more welcoming, so much more inviting to be in. Is temperature a big deal? Yeah, I think. In varying ways. So it's like there's always a debate in offices, especially like the temperature's too cold or too hot and that kind of idea of the thermal comfort and being able to have individual thermal comfort, but also some of the surfaces, it can be important for other reasons.

27:14So I know sometimes if people have like limited mobility or arthritis, colder temperatures on like surfaces can be quite unpleasant. And it's the same thinking about what kind of handles you might put on like a kitchen cabinet that might, if someone's got limited dexterity, how easy is it going to be for them to open that, that kind of thing. So again, it's all just designing for, with the consideration for everyone, is making sure that just everyone's at it and is it not going to be like I hate this Tim the worktop you know unless you're particularly against wood never met someone but I will do surely and what would your message be to like it's quite hard to get into design right that you've said it in the sense of like people might take them might not take you seriously you both like kind of nodded towards that but it's quite I think it's quite hard for young people coming in it's quite a like a saturated market maybe i don't know that's the right word or not but it feels like it's hard work am i is that is that the experience you had or not did you land it quite easily well after university the competitiveness of guessing when you're was hard i don't know if that's just designer if that's everyone um in the current climate but i think it is a very competitive nature obviously your portfolio has got to be top of the mark to get someone just to get someone's attention like I used to just when I was trying to get a job I was just like sending out email after email with everything on what I just need you need you in and then once you've gone and you're in you can really start building that up and then the door kind of opens a bit more I think I think especially if you don't live in London like everyone would always be like it's all in London and you'd be like oh I don't want to live there though so what do I do so you kind panic a little bit I think yeah I think Manchester's a really cool scene for creatives I think it's quite open-minded so I'm really like happy where I am with that one because I think we're based in the northern quarter which is like no kind of a part of Manchester I'd say I think there is definitely like bigger cities I think opportunities are starting to open there because they're realising like it isn't London is great and there is so much in London that makes it amazing and it is one of the design capital of the world but there are amazing opportunities elsewhere that's interesting yeah because how would you really worked in your portfolio to that and just pushed out just thinking like the young people like coming out of uni now great graduating now and they will i know you probably might not believe it but they will be looking at oh my goodness they've done this and i'm 30 under 30 like that's a dream for someone like lots of people like what would you say to them i think it's just showing a variety of skill is so important i think need to show that you can be creative like you can do a beautiful mood board but you can also implement those ideas in reality so it's all great having like fancy ideas but you have to actually be able to action them and put them into place so I think show different media if that's when there's like a sketchup or whatever 3d modeling if that's a photoshop elevation if it's you know physical material boards photograph them photograph kind of maybe the way you're working how you're layering up all the different options and explain like why what you've done is successful I think if that makes any sense no no it does and someone like applying for a job like at Jolene they might be that's just exactly what they need to hear do you know I mean what about you I don't know do you know what for us as a company like we're quite a small scale company and for us it's always been so important that in the early days when we built this culture we were like we love being here and we love our culture we need to keep that so when we're hiring people a lot of it comes down to you as a person as much as it's about your portfolio we're kind of like you can do one yeah technical stuff you can teach yeah show your show your personality i think we want to see that you're a bit of a nutter like the rest of us you know i mean like are you when we've in oh yeah absolutely is it not obvious no so when we're in two people we'll be like do you see that this one's kind of funny and we'll be like we should bring them back for you know it's kind of like show us a little bit about yourself that's going to make you fit into this team and we're quite allowed to me to do on the every day so you have to be able to put up with that if you're super super quiet and super shy you might struggle a little bit just because me um but yeah and the industry as well it's a tough one it is and sometimes you have really tight deadlines problems happen all the time you need to be able to have that resilience to kind of just bounce back from everything and i think for us it's just do you do you think that this person will fit in with the team yes great perfect that's that's the main thing for us i think really yeah no i do think that culture fit is i totally with it on the whole like portfolio and getting that right but if someone's like a right coach everything just will kind of be easy 100 you've got to show your personality through your work yeah because that's what's going to get someone's attention, isn't it?

32:21You can't, it doesn't, you don't want it to look like everyone else's. No, absolutely, because you want to, that's everything when you're interviewing, you do see so many and you try not, you know what it's like because you're trying not to be like, oh, I'm just looking through a billion CVs and a billion portfolios, but you do, you look through so many and they do kind of merge in your mind so when something stands out, that's, that's really where it's like, okay, that's a difference. A big thing for me was I sent out physical portfolios, which is not, not for everyone, but I basically made these sets of postcards from all my projects and sent them out to different people because I'm quite hands-on.

32:53I've always been quite hands-on with materials and stuff. So you made little printed postcards. Yeah, and you know what? You put people in a position, because with an email, it's quite easy for them to ignore it, isn't it? But when you've sent something in person, they're not going to be like, I don't know if you want to get them in now. So I kind of put people in that position where they had to. Put basically a gun to their head sort of thing. Yeah, they had to see me, yeah. So it worked quite well. It worked well, yeah. That's good. Yeah. I also, yeah, no, I love that. I do think that, I kind of lost my train of thought, actually, but I was going to say something really, really powerful and really good.

33:25But then I... Change your time. Yeah, once in a lifetime, do you know what I mean? No, well, I was going to, has it come back to me or not? I was just about to, then it didn't. As you were saying that about sending out your postcard, I was like, yeah, that's massive. Yes, with marketing, it's like that. You've got to be really ready. like even with the podcast you've got to be really ready to be almost like disliked by some people as well because your personality will mean that some people love you in terms of your design like not even just hiring getting a job but the people taking your pitch and people like getting your promotion or whatever or that sort of thing and then some people will hate it as well like like not hate it but you won't appeal to everybody so i think that's like something to give people that confidence like whatever they're doing to be ready to just go so I've got my trainers walk back I mean when you guys send out samples stunning with the little chucky bars in them have you had their samples with chucky bars in them nothing better than when you get a sandbag it's got a little tree in it it's the best and when you sent me a photo of it yeah I was like it's the best day ever your nails matched the chocolate bar they did it was incredible it was like we planned out yeah it was it was us our marketing team and there's a coordinated on that.

34:42Yeah, and then we sort of did like a big post. No, we didn't. I wish we had done it, actually. We should have done it. Anyway, we can schedule it in at some point. Yeah, yeah. We are kind of wrapping up for time. So I know. Yeah, honestly. I told you it flew by. It flew by. Yeah, and everyone's like, really? I don't know what I'm going to talk about. But before we go, what's a book or a podcast that you read or recommend? I think a book that I read. Can I say two? for a while so all right right now she read first started it she read um okay when i first started it's only um archive creative director sarah uh we have a book in the office called the color bible and it has like every color and like what you can associate with it which is really helpful especially like when you're starting with a project and then um it's a book called sense hacking by charles spence i want to say which is more about the psychological side of sensory and how you can kind of use it inside but it's really interesting it's also you can get it as an audio so it's quite long you just have it on the background sense hacking so even sounds cool isn't it sounds cool um oh i like that oh thanks sarah eleanor sounds like i'm just plugging her but case sergeant's book on designing for neurodiversity i think it's called designing inclusive workplace yeah something like that yeah yeah i took it on holiday and i was like just in terms of like more cohesive overview and the research she's done is just so thorough um she really knows what she's talking about because sometimes these conversations do happen and it feels like there's a big sense of it being quite detached from the actual people um but she brings it down to you know she's got children who are neurodiverse and it's really her insights are really interesting because they're coming from a really human perspective that I think sometimes is lacking when people are just talking about research um so I think it's a really really good book oh nice cool right anything else for everybody else it's not really we just better get started on the world peaks yeah yeah yeah I'll send out a few emails in a minute that will be fixed in a minute thank you so much for watching thanks for joining um a mini series with 30 under 30 and don't forget to do your whole fancy business with liking and following the show whatever you do because it helps us get more fabulola guests on board so ciao ciao i'm gonna ask you another question so it's gonna be after this i'm doing a secret thing where i'm asking everybody what the color and what the space neck most used cuts hang on start again yeah yeah i've got all in the tang tie basically i don't want it to be in the episode but at the start of next year i'm going to release an episode where it's literally just loads of people saying this is the color of 2026 and this is the space that's going to be most used in 2026 space so you've got a minute to think but when you say space what do you like a desk or a coffee shop or a collaboration table or a high table or um like or working from home or like where do you think people what's the space that people need to think about like where's what's an emerging space that we're not really using or we are using but it's going to take a new form and be a bit more used or something like that what are you putting into spaces that you didn't use to put into spaces or you're starting to put more in and a color what's the next color for next year you're like trend predictions trend prediction do you want us just to answer now whenever you're ready i'll ask you the question okay okay the thing with the color though is i've got a reference in my mind but i'm like it's a color from a company is that a problem no just do it just be a year it'd be really strange if you weren't yeah so right elena what do you think it's the color for 2026 so i think in terms of the color profile there's been a lot of blues recently and i don't understand why that's been a thing because oh oh no i mean in spaces more specifically i'm sick of the corporate blue office um it's really boring and i think a color i really love at the moment is um old street by coat paints which is kind of like i'll just hope it's like a slightly burnt muted red wine so it's like a burgundy but slightly muted and on the walls oh my god on the walls it looks absolutely lovely and it's just it's got that sense of calm it's got that sense of warmth and it's just a complete contrast to that really old school office space and within that i think the space in my mind that's going to be the next big space that we're going to be thinking about is meeting spaces that are soft um I think there's so many like you see there's like boardrooms where it's just these cold surfaces and I'm like why why don't we have more meeting rooms that are sofas you know I think there's something nice about having that kind of more softer approach everyone feels more relaxed you know and I just think we need more meter rooms that have got kind of soft seating in it absolutely I'm not saying anything because I'm like, yes, Eleanor, yes.

40:08Wicked colour choice. Great space choice. Thank you. Sarah, what do you think is the colour of 2026? So hard. Is it? I can't decide or pick one. How many? How many are you going to go with? The whole room, I think. I'm really, I don't know if it's for next year, I'm really loving, it's because I'm boring actually, I'm really loving browns at the minute. Oh, yeah. I think they really can add a lot of depth to a space, but it's quite a boring answer. Depends how you choose, they'll be boring. I think yellow is having a minute in the fashion. I think it's making its way a lot more over to interiors.

40:49I think it's, people have a bit scared of yellow because it can go quite wrong. But I think yellow can add so much joy to a space. And if you work with it in more warmer tones, I think it's a really beautiful one to be. and when you say yellow are you talking like daffodils or honeycombs oh i don't know all of them um more of that honeycomb like those umbers those rich yellows i think whack that on a cushion and it adds so much to a space um or get like a whole whole chair in it i think it really get it on the walls get everywhere um and then for a space i think we've also seen the like semi-like different lounge setting is really on the rise because I think it makes people want to be there especially in workplaces you want to design a place people want to be rather than what they have to be but then I think to be different oh so I feel like the kitchen island and a workplace especially could be on the right because I think it's so nice when everyone is like on their lunch breaks everyone like gets together around it has a chat or it's a great space for everyone to get all their materials out, work with it.

42:00I think we're more collaboration spaces. I think the Kitchen Island's a perfect place. Yeah. And if they could make sure there's a banging coffee machine. I know. Just thinking the art machine, get the pastries out. All over it. So we're talking like browns and amber, which actually goes together as well. So that's cool. I love the warmth of those colours. In Kitchen Islands. Make it happen. Thank you, Sarah. It's perfect.

42:27Thank you.