Storytelling as the Secret Weapon in Workplace Design: The Jordy Dent Approach

0:00The amazing part of us being designers is that we're all slightly different, right? The way you get different designs out of people is different ways of thinking and stuff. But for me, it's a huge foundation as to what I do, because I find it very, very difficult to design without some sort of why and some sort of story, because it kind of allows me to stay on track. As a designer, you get the joy of sort of having imposter syndrome a lot. Am I making the right decision? Am I doing the right things? But by kind of having that why and that story from very, very early on, it allows me to counteract any questions my mind might take me and go, no this is my concept this is my story hey welcome to space by stansons today i'm sat with geordie dent creative director at area and you're b corp we are we should be mentioning this shouldn't i there's a there's a i don't know there's a there's a bit of a gray area as to whether we were the first b corp uh d &b company so i'm going to stick with that and go yes we were definitely because but you were it's duncan i had this is they really won't forgive me if i if i don't say we were so i think there was a bit of a grey air but we were one of the first if not the first yeah nice so your b corp area and you're based in windsor based in windsor yep in the regions and that's a beautiful office it's a wicked office it's a great office um it's i mean london and windsor are both amazing spaces so i know i i do love london like of course i work here and i'm here and everything about london is amazing but whenever i'm in like windsor i just feel like i'm in this like tourist like oh it is yeah it definitely is it should be but it's yeah so pretty and it's a great place and we've seen it through the good times and the bad times we moved in just after the jubilee and then obviously when the queen passed it was chaos because there's just people everywhere and flowers everywhere so as sad as the time that was it was a pretty amazing place to be at that at that time with yeah with all the flowers and bits yeah well so what's the them has been creative director and a design director i knew you were gonna ask i knew you could ask the discretion um so i think every every business kind of has different names for different things there'd be some places where creative directors are top of the tree there'd be some places where designers top of the tree so so my boss james is a design director so he's group design director across um i suppose from our point of view as role of creative director we have our little team so we work in pods um and kind of are responsible for the day-to-day design output from our teams essentially so we have our own projects but kind of overseeing what our teams do and helping them through that creative process um and james kind of sits as design director more on probably the wider strategy and wider design side so again depending on who you are to give you different things but ours is probably more the day-to-day boots on the ground and James is more of that kind of business strategy-led stuff.

2:47But again, he's our mentor and he's somebody we can ask the questions to when we don't know the answers that the team have asked. That's cool. That's cool. I did, yeah. You see the two things, but it's quite interchangeable, isn't it? Absolutely. Like I said, you'll get different people from different things. Yeah, totally. So, Jordi, you actually had your own freelancing as well for a bit. Was that workplace design? So I kind of, I probably started in the industry not in a probably normal manner, I would say. So I didn't go to uni, came to the industry, I say late. I was early from working point of view, but late from that side of things.

3:26So I kind of fell into a role. I've always been surrounded by constructionism. My dad or my parents owned a shop fitting company. So like school holidays at 12, I was on site painting walls and making a mess and doing whatever I could sort of thing to help out. So I've always had it around me. And then I started going down the route and then ended up working sort of side by side sort of with dad, I suppose. I say side by side with dad, where I did a bit of stuff on site, kind of learned the trade as it were, which gave us a good, like really good understanding as to how stuff's built. just super important how they use um yeah kind of useful and then on the side of that it was kind of trying to do as much freelance stuff to create a portfolio to then be able to go to a business and go right i've got some credibility behind me now to say i've done this i've been paying this because i didn't have the uni degree you kind of going right i'm starting from the bottom and having to prove myself from it very early on so um it was great it's a good learning curve to be doing it to learn the mistakes as you go um and i'd probably like to anybody who doesn't feel like uni's a route i don't think we're afraid of it i probably was in the industry three years before most people came out of uni so you're three years further forward then and you're boots on the ground experience so um yeah it's been a different a different a different way into market but it's been a good and a good one it's super unusual to hear that and why it is is because i did the same okay right so i never ever speak to someone everyone's been to uni i just yeah came straight out um and then i started like earning while you're learning sort of thing and just like proper sort of yeah basic i think that's always a bit of a barrier to start with as well from age from um experience you kind of going and going all of these people coming out of uni are going to be super experienced they're going to know so much they're going to know so much more than me but when you kind of get to that point in your in and you've been in for a couple of years and then the uni students start coming in who are a similar age to you you start to understand that the practicalities of what you've learned far outweigh anything you learn in a classroom and that's not me saying don't go to uni don't do it that's me saying that both paths are just as important and doable I suppose and it's worked for you yeah and it didn't come out of like that time of the debt as well that's the other yeah so that's i always thought about yeah it's a nice thing to not have a banging over you yeah so no i'm not i'm not snagging off people have been too new because i know not most people have like and it's great like people really get ahead with it and everything it's just my path wasn't like that and i never really talked to many people that don't so i think that i think from my side as well i think i'd have struggled at uni i think um at that time i've probably changed as i've got slightly older but the mentality of having to do structured things and be structured at certain times i'd be i'd have been one of these people who is a week out from a deadline and stays up every hour of every night to get it done rather than the four weeks that you've had to do it or six weeks just because pressure is a massive driver of mine um and i find that my best creative ideas come under a little bit of pressure um that being said when we talk about a little bit later on storytelling and stuff i'm sure will be probably uh different to that but yeah it's something i've learned as i've grown yeah so how did you get from um shop fitting to workplace so it's because it opened up yeah it was it was kind of the hail it was kind of a point of time so i'm based on the south coast and kind of grew up on the south coast and then my parents are from sort of northampton way um so there was opportunity we all kind of moved back towards Northampton um and it was a kind of a time where it was like right I can flee the nest as it were um I wanted to my only goal was to work in London I wanted to get to London and it was kind of how can I get there without going into London straight away so uh basically got to a point through my CV at every every business I could possibly find and then was kind of lucky enough to go and start working for a company called Accent Offs Interiors which is now Habit Action so Michelle who had on was I worked with Michelle towards the back end when I went back there but I kind of worked there and was the first designer in so again learning the very hard way where you go into a business they've got no internal design and you end up wearing every hat across that business where you're technical design your creative design you're pitching you're doing whatever and kind of any questions creatively come to you so I kind of fell into it that way because it was just the way it was just it was the opportunity that came to me at the time I suppose no that's nice so you mentioned storytelling is that just a bit of a gimmick or a buzzword or what is trend you're jumping armor I think it I think it's one of them I think um for me it's a it's a huge foundation of what I do but I don't necessarily think it is for everybody and there's not a right and a wrong in that the the amazing part of us being designers is that we're all slightly different right so the way you get different designs out people is different ways of thinking and stuff so but for me it's it's a huge foundation as to what i do because i find it very very difficult to design without some sort of why and some sort story because it kind of allows me to stay on stay on track um as a designer you get the joy of sort of having imposter syndrome a lot so you go i'm making the right decision am i doing the right things but by kind of having that why and that story from very very early on it allows me to counteract any questions my mind might take me go no this is my concept this is my story let's bring it back and I think um it's a huge part of what I do so I'm not going to say it's a gimmick I'm not going to say it's a it's kind of buzzword but um I think it might evolve and might change its name over years and and the way it looks at it but I think it's a huge part of what I do and has it always been a big part of what you do or was there a particular time in your career when you're like oh my goodness this is amazing I must like yeah so I think once I'd once I'd moved into London so I went and worked for um an architectural practice called Scott Brownrigg which is a massive learning curve for me you kind of go from a small dmv company to this enormous business that work on these massive projects and and i was really really great designers there that you kind of then open your eyes to go okay there is thought there's thinking there's there's a story that sits behind all of this and it just got a click to went this is the way that i need to design because it makes my life so much easier in my own head um i kind of you get stuck in a bit of a safe space when you don't have a story where you go let's rinse and repeat and do that and dnb i think maybe five or ten years ago or probably ten years ago i started in the industry got a bad name for that yeah um and i've seen in the last six or seven years it's changed drastically to say actually there's as much creativity there's as much um new thinking going on in db dnb and probably if not more than there is in the trad world because of pace and how quickly we get stuff so i think probably working there and working in that trad world where you've got a little bit more time to think about design and think about what you're designing just help open my eyes to go actually this is a massive part of what uh what i do and how i can how i can design and how I sort of start projects.

11:04Yeah, so how do you uncover a brand story? Like what's your process for that or what are you looking for? So I think for me, it doesn't just have to be a brand story or a client story. I think it's just having a bit of an understanding to go, right, I'm going to do a bit of deep dive into the business that you're talking to or the client that you're talking to to understand what the building's like, what they're like, what their tone of voice is externally and internally and Brian Gardner is huge on that um and then understand what their what their vision is um to lean into the storytelling kind of narrative that client is your main character in your story but they are that person or that client or that team that you are taking through that story and taking through those journeys you're just building the story around them as how to get there and what the outcome is So I think for me, it's kind of getting and trying to get under their skin as early as possible.

12:06We have two different routes where we go. You get loads and loads of FaceTime with the client. So you can ask those intruding questions and kind of pickets and certain ideas you've got. And other times we don't speak to the client at all until the pitch or until the mid bid. So you kind of have to go and do that deep dive on your own where it might be that I'll spend the first day, two days of a process with the team going go and find as much information about this business as possible and then let's sit down and go that sounds good that could be something we lean on that could be something we lean on that could be something lean on and all of a sudden it then sort of unfolds um and you'll get some briefs that come in and some sort of tenders that come in where they'll go sustainability is is huge for us um and for us as a big business it helps because it's sort of ingrained within what we do um so if it's we're finding it difficult to find a hook or a sort of tangible story that sits with it we then go down what does the how does the building work what's the architecture of the building is there history within the building is there history within the area as a concept um pulling in then some of the sustainability elements that come with it as well so it's it's um it's that kind of early in-depth thinking that really helps I think um to sort of start that foundation that everything's then built on I mean yeah I love it and I love projects that I've got that much substance I don't really know quite what the right word is here but I would go substance like behind it all so it's like got this like proper foundation and then everything's built off that what's coming straight to my head though geordie is that i hear dnb is like fast paced like you've got no time to return a tender um i hear people saying that literally just deadlines are up at night trying to finish off with it so how do like two precious days how can we afford them afford them how do you like kind of convince the kind that you're gonna i don't know yeah how does that look in family i think i think from my side it's if you can lay a good foundation early on it saves you time in the process and it saves you that kind of mentality of going you could be a week down the line without that kind of two days of thinking and still be no clear as to where you are great we can crack on with plans we can crack on crack on with sort of some of those elements but when it comes to kind of the essence of that design the essence of that story that two days is invaluable to me um there's business mentality that you go you sharpen the saw and you have two people who are trying to chop a tree down one spends 10-15 minutes stopping to sharpen his saw so his saw's always sharp not blunt he'll chop the tree down a lot quicker than the guy who's just chopping and chopping and chopping and it's kind of taking heed and taking stock to say actually i can afford this two days at the beginning because it's going to save me two weeks in the back end um and i think sometimes you don't always have to have the whole thing figured out if you've done the bit at the front end you can kind of go right there's a loose concept here let's drive with this see where we get to see where we get to interaction with clients and then we know if we're onto a good thing or maybe need to slight pivot and change to something else it's big picture thinking and that it's it's yeah it's having that it's having that that i suppose the bravery and and don't get me wrong there's there's times where it doesn't happen and we go actually we don't have time to to do this and we have to look at how that strategy goes in a different way or what we're gonna how we're gonna build that story in a slightly different way um and it might be that sometimes you get it from a client and it's laid out in front of you you go great i can hit the ground running because they're very very clear as to one they want or you've had a really good conversation with them to start with or you're in early and you're talking to them before a tender comes out or before something so you're kind of in their minds and in their shoes as early as possible i think that's that's the key to it all yeah how often are you there and i would always imagine that you talk to them first but it really depends on which way which way it comes in there's you you have different avenues to to a project coming in you're in a your the bd team has done a great job and you're talking directly to the client front off um there's others that come through project managers so you go there's going to be an rfv come out for you to look at um a new project that then is when you get your formal kind of tender you've got six weeks to bring this back go there's a meeting here with the client that's when your pitch date is or it's when your submission date is um it's always great when you can speak to the client as early on and be on that journey with them um but this industry is super competitive so it doesn't always work like that way no i can imagine have you got a story of when you've done this with a client where you've taken them on this journey the design is shaped by the story and how like you've got a good example um i mean i think i think storytelling works really well in a competitive situation so probably more in that that competitive mode because you are putting all your eggs in one basket and going we are hanging out on this and we are going for it um yeah i've got a story so we did a project a couple of years ago for a big um food and beverage business multi-branded um super like nostalgic british brands um like household names and everyone's probably got them in their cupboard uh we went in with the story of like full nostalgia these are amazing things it reminds us of our sunday roasters as a bit of an example um and kind of how they've played such a massive part in in people's childhoods and growing up in nostalgia and we won the project and i remember going into to meet the um the new md and the ceo at the time and he basically ripped the concept up and throw it out he said i've spent the last two years trying to get away from us being a nostalgic brand and looking at how we can be a forward-thinking brand and you kind of go your heart kind of melts a little bit but we won the project because we had a concept that we hung our hat on and went you know what this is what we're going with they could see the thinking behind everything that we'd done although it wasn't necessarily right at the time we'd thought about so much of it that they went these guys can probably pivot and if we give them an actual brief they can do the same thing again and it evolved and it didn't change drastically we just tweaked the kind of some of the the materials we use some of the thinking behind some of the spaces um and ended up being a reasonably cool project so it was uh yeah it was a fun one so you went all in hang your hat went all in hang a hat and it kind of got thrown back at me but wrong thing mate so but uh it worked out well in the end it is kind of those things that you go okay there's a lesson learned there um but actually how great how great a story is that you can be so wrong and still get so far by having something tangible and a reason why yeah i mean i know it's quite different like in a sense but if you're like interviewing for people or like job roles or whatever which i'm sure you do it's not always necessarily them having the right answers it's like how they think absolutely that That's the exciting bit.

19:35You have a wicked, I can mold this person or whatever and this person will really flourish here. And it's not actually so much about them getting the answers right because it's just interpretation. Absolutely. I mean, I remember, I can't think where I was. I was once asked a question in the interview as to who would win out of a fight between a ninja and a pirate. And you just kind of go, sorry. And there is no right answer to it. But it's that kind of thinking going, well, this person will do this and this person will do this and this is how they become this and this and this. And it is exactly that.

20:06It's you getting into the mind of that person and going, okay, cool. There's something there that we can work with as opposed to going, pirate, great. Why? Don't know. So there is that kind of why and that thinking and reasoning back to it. Definitely a ninja there. I can't remember what my answer was, Saka. It's definitely a ninja. Oh, dear. That's good. And then we're going on and obviously this project that you, mentioned this nostalgic british brand yeah does that how does that impact the people that are using the space or how do you tell the story i guess in the space because so much thinking's gone into that really sad when it gets lost and even i find it i'm going off on one now but with their products you've got like really great stories behind them and like the reasoning to why we did that but how to make people know that is kind of quite hard without being clumsy yeah and obvious i think is obvious is the biggest thing and i think that's the biggest challenge we have when you find a concept find a story i've worked on a big travel project where you're going down a journey and the thinking was all about wanderlust and and the reasons why people travel and it's very then difficult to design something where you go let's put them in a hot air balloon or let's put them here or here that's so incredibly obvious they go this just feels a little bit tacky now um and i think there's an element of kind of discovery that you want to add into a into a project and and those conversation points that kind of feed their way through the through the team so you end up working super closely with a client team and you kind of start talking about some of these or we're doing this for this reason using this material for this reason where um we've put x amount of so and so here and here that then filters it way its way down that them as a client team go i've taken this little nugget away and they show somebody around as a a client or a new employee and they'll throw that into their kind of explanation of the workspace and all of a sudden you get this Chinese whispers effect where everybody starts to understand certain things or you sit in a different seat and you see something you go oh that's that's cool I've never noticed that before and I think that's the clever way of how you can intertwine storytelling and kind of make sure that it's not super obvious but it's not lost and there's that discovery element where you're not putting everything front and center there's these bits that kind of people will notice over time um and point out to somebody else and then they'll point something else out and all of a sudden that that story's filtered through the staff um and become a a cool thing that they can tell each other um i had a text from a client the other day we've just finished it again another food and uh food and beverage brands um in uxbridge so again multi multi-faceted business um and we put some uh put a big acrylic box with a load of um purple beads in that especially symbolized black currants um and they were doing a quiz and it was like how many black currants are in that box there's like 14 000 of these black currants sort of purple beads in there but that then gets thrown into their culture do you know there's 14 000 black currents in that box there a very very simple easy thing that we might not necessarily think about front end something else from a client side might hang on to it and say oh this is this is a cool little fact and a cool little discovery that they then can move around the space and kind of talk around and speak to other people about so i think it's really important there's a discovery element of those things it's almost leaning in to the organic like fireside like olden day country countryside like in a heart like grandpa granny telling the kids like it's exactly that and i think it is that's that's the essence of storytelling right that's where the storytelling has come from it's come from everybody sat around like i said sat around a campfire well there's no tvs there's no this or you go on holiday whatever it might be and and generations telling stories about certain folk laws or whatever it might be and that filtering through and everybody takes their own kind of stance on things or might add something here or might have something and all All of a sudden this thing evolves before you even realize it's evolved.

24:14So it's that. But yes, the essence of it, I suppose. It's kind of grown arms and legs. Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, that's good. And what's something that you said right going back to the start, you said that every designer approaches it differently. And I do respect that as well, because I do think people all have their own way and their own story, if you like, to get to their end goal. but what are some of the mistakes that you see designers coming in maybe when they're juniors or new which kind of kind of stop that story it's hard i don't necessarily think you could like i'm not going to go and say oh they make this mistake because of this one the xyz because i think those mistakes are what make great designers yeah um that's where you kind of get this evolution of a designer who's been through the hardships been through the mistakes and understands the reason why they've made it and how to come out better the other side so what I said is there's a mistake made in not telling stories I've worked with and worked with some amazing designers that storytelling isn't at the forefront of their of their design style which is absolutely fine because they're very very good at the other side of things or very very good at being able to convey this their story or their essence of a design in a different way but I think it's it's about kind of trusting yourself like i said before for me i have to have a story or a why because it keeps me on track it goes any demons that come out the closet where you go i don't know how i feel about this or i'm starting to question my design keep me back in focus and going no look you were super happy with this the whole team were brought into this if you start going off on the tangent you can pull it back in quite easily by going right what is my why and why have we done this and it then makes it very very easy to discuss with a client or talk to a client about it because there is a reason for every material you've picked or every kind of um layout you've done or or every reason you've put certain products in a certain place and that's very very easy then to convey to a client and it then makes it very very difficult to them to question it because they can question it and you go great absolutely i'll take your feedback but for my reason why this is why we've done it um and it always be the something i do at the beginning of every project is kind of go what's my design statement for this project so two or three words that kind of tagline for the project about whether that actually needs sustainability whether it's a concept whether it's in me into kind of the those small details what is my tagline for the project and what is my why for the project and that then everything pulls into that to to be able to talk about it i i love i mean i'm quite like that in life actually like a bit like because i def i quite overthink or i get like i'm a massive overthinker and it helps you just to it just yeah you know what i mean that you're thinking oh my good enough or is my like absolutely i also think it gives you like that's giving you like a real sense of confidence as well like because yeah you're going to be really sure of yourself like you know you saying now that you overthink from the outside about your clients are thinking like no this guy it's just like on the money it makes it makes it makes my life easier to a certain degree because it means that you then you know something so well and that's what i often say to to designers and and new people in the industry it's like this thing has come out of your head you're the only person in that room who knows if you've said something wrong okay your team might go that's not quite right or whatever but if you can say something with confidence and you can say and you can be on that train and you can say no actually I'm this is my story I'm telling um you're the only person who knows that that story's not right yeah and if you can get through that battle and go I might not have said that quite right but I can bring it back because I'm here it makes it super powerful because you you can't necessarily I'm not gonna say you can't be wrong because you can be wrong but you can't be kind of thrown off of track I do know what you mean though I do know what you mean about I can't be wrong.

28:24I always loved English because I could write and it was just what I wanted to say. It was just what I thought. But whereas MASH, you could be wrong because 1 plus 2 still doesn't eat all 4. It's in fact, but it's just true. And so I loved that in terms of interpretation. Absolutely, absolutely. And you can lean into that. But no, I'm a big over-thinker. And I find a lot of creative people... I think... I would be worried if a creative wasn't an overthinker and you can have confident or hasn't experienced overthinker or hasn't experienced an imposter syndrome because you're probably not pushing your boundaries enough you're probably not you're probably in your safe space and going okay I'm doing this as a safe thing I think those elements come when you're slightly out of your comfort zone and you'll start questioning going am I am I should I just go back into my little my little routine um but that's when amazing things come right when you just step outside or you can push those boundaries a little bit it helps massively yeah no I'm I'm so with you on that um what's the most unusual thing you've uncovered in one of your deep dives um I'm not gonna go not unusual I think there's I think there's there's some really cool things I think one of the other things without sounding and my clients you'll see this will probably be terrified when i say this but you go on a journey with with that person as well so whether that's uh thought leaders in businesses or the the clients you're working with directly to kind of get an understanding of them as well so um looking through youtube have they done podcasts have they done youtube videos have how do they talk what's the type of ways that they talk so you you uncover some funny things when you start looking that deep um nothing that's too that's too bad thankfully but you kind of it's about understanding the client and the business as much as possible so you kind of have to play into that stalker role a little bit um where you're kind of going right i understand that there might be for example somebody who's got a real love for a certain sport um or when you go to their office they might have something little on their desk that you kind of okay that's cool that gives me an insight into who they are as a person and then when you start doing visuals and creative things just adding some of that back into you visualize an md's desk and he's got um i rub people in the background or he's got something that you can kind of tie back into it it gives you that sense of um personality and sort of personal sort of again personal storytelling that then really feeds into that that person you're presenting to and and they pick things up and all of a sudden they go oh actually what else is in there and when I talk about the little kind of easter eggs or the discovery moments some of those things are really cool to start playing and adding into visuals and stuff and you kind of play a bit of a game or what can we get in there that they might not see the first time but they might see the second or the third so um and I went off on a bit of a tangent as to what I found it's probably me trying to avoid the question if I'm honest but no I'm thinking I want to see some of your visuals you had to be so sharp i love it it's actually brilliant it's such a good overview into your process and how it's nice i love things like sustainability or storytelling or um i don't know whatever like when they're not just buzzwords but people have actually integrated it and making it absolutely something really deep and i think sustainability is a key one like again and Duncan is our head of sustainability, and the whole team worked incredibly hard to make sure that it's part of our process, not just us getting to the end of a project and going, right, how can we shoehorn some sustainability into this to go, we've used this or this or this.

32:17It's kind of played a massive part in our story from the start, and I think as designers, we often do it where we might get to the end of a project and we start talking to the sustainability team or during a project and we're kind of letting go what sustainable materials have you used and you panic and you go well i don't know if i have until you start looking at the material you have because it's kind of just ingrained in you that the ones that we go to the products that we're starting to use we know the story so well that it becomes our go-to um and it means that it's it's not just a gimmick a buzzword it's it's something that's ingrained in the dna of us as designers yeah what you pick what you find yeah no I like it and is there a before we go because time I know I know it always feels so quick and uh have an agency that actually do all of the work for us on space and they always say like you've got to keep it a bit short and I'm just like oh I started chatting yeah so many more questions for you um but yeah what I was going to say was is there a podcast or a book that you have read or reading that listen to or whatever that you recommend there's probably a couple of things i would say um to let you in behind the curtain it's probably a little bit why my brain was like that saying oh yeah that's probably why my brain was is i'm a huge huge fan of disney and i'm and i say disney in the sense of them as a business and them as what they do in creativity wise not necessarily snow white and everything else but um i was very fortunate as a kid to to be able to go to Disneyland quite a bit um and experiencing Disney as a place is incredible it's the most creative place I think I've ever been from the smallest smallest details um you're at a park and there's a bus ticket stuck to the side of a um stuck to the side of a kind of luggage tag or whatever it might be that's then got a code that's then aligned to something that's on a ride or there's some like really really small with intricate details and that's all made by a team of people who work for Disney called The Imagineers and there's an amazing documentary on Disney Plus which is all about them as a team and a kind of story from them being when it first started to where they are now and they are like a group of 20 creative people that are the mind behind everything that's done so not from a sort of a film point of view but then when you get into physical spaces whether that's stores whether that's in the parks whatever that might be they're the ones who come up with all of these amazing intricate ideas and that discovery that you go on as a kid or as an adult whatever it might be hiding little mickey mouses left right and center within stuff that you wouldn't associate the first time they're the people that sit behind it and it's an amazing um an amazing watch for any creative i think um from a podcast point of view um i probably don't listen to too many creative podcasts um audio books or listen to i spend a lot of time in the car um again ride of a lifetime which is by uh bob eiger who is the i don't know if he still is was the ceo at disney that is one of them um i can't remember the book's name um but there is i think it's called creativity inc which is the uh the guy who founded uh pixar so again that disney disney trend that goes in it um and just hearing how they tackle creativity in a completely different way and something that they have to come up with something completely new and some of the ideas i mean you watch disney film they're mental some of them you kind of go where has this come from so to hear the creativity and thinking behind is is super super interesting so yeah i'd probably so then to his books and imagineering i like that it's they're a really cool bunch of people so that's probably my dream job if they ever comes up to go and work for them but it's uh i'll let them know yeah have you ever worked on a disney project uh no there's a couple that i've been in and around the business um but no i've not quite got there it's probably a good thing because if i did i'd probably i'd probably go too far and we'll probably end up being in a difficult situation so probably a good thing i don't oh no it's amazing thank you so much really appreciate your time and no one's spoken about storytelling like you have or so passionately or it's so deeply ingrained as you have so it's amazing listen and education really for everyone that's um follows the show so really grateful no no problem at all thanks for having me you're welcome and thank you everyone for tuning in again next this um episode of geordie dent and And like I always say, algorithm loves you when or loves the show or loves whatever.

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