The Secret Sauce Behind the World’s Best Workspaces

0:00I remember going to a hotel with my mum and dad and my brothers and I remember looking around the hotel and I remember feeling I was very intimidated in the space and that the space was not for me. So it was basically like you don't belong here. I always thought that that was a really interesting superpower that the designer has is that they can make someone feel a certain way in the space. And that was when I was quite young that I felt like that. and from there I became really interested in terriers. Hey and welcome to Space by Sansons. Today I'm talking to Susan Bold. Hi. Design Director at Echo Space.

0:39She is. Fantastic. Thank you for having me. It's such a treat to have you actually. I love, I've got an absolute thing for people from overseas. I just genuinely do. I feel like they bring so much in terms of different experiences, different culture, bigger mission. And us Londoners just get quite not reminded in just like a little 25 miles of the M25. I don't even know how big the M25 is, but you know what I'm saying. I don't think it's 25 miles. I think we've got two. I have no idea. Do you think? I have no idea what it is. I was... Although it's huge, isn't it? It's probably... It's not very big compared to the world, is it?

1:13No. So I mean, how far away is that said? Yeah. So there we go. So we get quite not reminded. and I love like thinking into other people's like yeah experiences cultures like mindset like norms what's abnormal for them what's normal for us so I'm really excited to have you on Susan so thank you no thanks for having me I'm excited to chat yeah no it's really cool I loved I love your whole essay thing actually South Africa and what happened and like how you've got to coming over here so can you fill us in a bit about like how you started in design was there a magic moment where you thought i'm going to be an interior designer yes there was oh no oh cool yeah so i always thought i was actually going to be a fashion designer because i loved fashion growing up i always watched fashion tv um and then i remember going to a hotel with my mom and dad and my brothers and i remember looking around the hotel and i remember feeling like i was very intimidated in the space and that the space was not for me.

2:18So it was basically like, you don't belong here. It made me feel intimidated. So I always thought that that was a really interesting superpower that the designer has, is that they can make someone feel like a certain way in the space. and that was when I was quite young that I felt like that and from there I became really interested in terriers I would basically every interior I went into any shop any hotel any house I would I would be that snoopy person and go yeah exactly really is that your choice um but yeah I would actually always go to the bathroom it's a weird thing that I did I always just go like in a restaurant I would go to the bathroom first because I wanted to see what it looked like um and what finishes they used and then from there my love for interiors just grew and grew and grew I am with you on that though I know it sounds weird but I even in people's houses I love their bathroom choices it helps you a lot doesn't it when you love someone because I feel like everyone can do their front door and their hall and their lounge and like communal spaces like nice but when it comes to bathrooms like how you present your bathroom how does it smell fragrance fragrance obsessed with fragrance yeah me too i'm i'm a huge fragrance person um i think i told you before like my team know that whenever i go into an office building lobby or um any kind of restaurant i always like smell the space and it actually changes your possession of it because you have this instant like oh that smells really lovely and all of a sudden you either feel like really relaxed or um you're really high energized just by the fragrance and the senses that you have around you i'm actually with you on that i'm like quite obsessed with essential oils and different fragrances like chamomile lavender like calm you down my lemon and citrus fruits that pick you up.

4:20Yeah, exactly. Get you going, synergize. Yeah. I think it's a bit of like a hidden thing that we need to do in offices. Oh, 100%. So a lot of offices are doing in Mao. We've had clients who have asked us to help them with sense for their spaces. And it's really something that's quite fun to be able to do is that you could also do it with the changing seasons. So you have different sense for different seasons that give your team a different response to their interior because it feels different you know it gives you a different kind of energy or um feeling you have actually done that yeah so we've done we've done something like that before for a client yeah and i think it's becoming quite common now because you want your brand to not just be what you see it's what all the auxiliary senses that you want to be able to entice as well yeah yeah oh that's cool anyway so you're in this hotel and you were intimidated So I was in this hotel and then I was really intimidated because, and I think it was just the finishes that they used.

5:22The designer was very clever with the finishes because it was obviously aimed for adults. It was not really aimed for children. The kinds of finishes that they used were very high end, lots of gold gilding, big chandeliers. It makes you feel very out of place if you're a young child and you're wearing your trainers in your jeans. uh is intimidating a good feeling to have i think in some places yes i think certain you know certain brands only want certain people coming in with a certain you know money or whatever it is um and that's an extension of your brand it's you know like when you go into boutiques and mayfair they have very little stock in their shops and there's a reason for that it's psychological advertising so you only have a few products but your your space is quite generous so you're showcasing one product in a very large interior that's it immediately making you think this is an exclusive product so it's that psychological aspect that they think about as well so you feel quite intimidated because if you go into that shop there's only three items that you can look at and then you have to try and like make conversation with the salesperson and be like, I actually can't afford this.

6:43Okay, bye. And everyone's looking at you, looking at your price tag. Well, there is no price tag because it's that exclusive and then they just assume you have the money. But yeah, it's interesting how space, yeah, exactly. Less can actually mean more in terms of make you feel that way because it's just clever design using lighting, using fragrance, using materials to make one feel sometimes intimidated, sometimes welcome. Yeah. And colder materials and harder colours and colder colours and angles and all that kind of thing as well. Like how you manipulated the space and are there lots of curves and it's obviously softer it's more inviting.

7:25As soon as you start introducing quite sharp angular elements it's quite aggressive and can be seen as quite harsh. All that whole masculine energy Yeah, exactly. It's just deep, isn't it? It is. There's like a whole can of worms there unless you could just open up. I love that. So you went from there and you like started digging into people's bathroom. No, I did not. Let's not say that. Remind me. No, no. So yeah, I do kind of find it though. Whenever I meet people now, the first thing they always say to me is like, oh, I'd love you to come and see my house. I'm always like, okay. Because it's not really what I do.

8:06Why would it be different? Interiors. Resi to interiors. Yeah, it's quite a bit different, yeah. And longer. So residential projects out the ground sometimes take two years if it's a really high-spec project because you're building the house and then you're detailing it out. And then it's also quite different because it's a personal connection that you have to the home where people do get very emotionally invested in the design, in the finishes, in the actual, you know, how is this door handle going to look? And, you know, with offices, yes, that all matters, but it's more transactional. It's like, this is the handle because it's not only functional, it works for scheme and it's beautiful.

8:52It's around price point. It's, you know, where it's residential, there's a bit more that goes into it in terms of emotion. Yeah, emotion. Just that. Yeah, just lots of emotion. I can imagine. So you then studied design in? Yeah, I studied interior architecture in South Africa. And then I got a job offer straight out of uni in Cape Town. So a little bit away from where I grew up. And I worked in hospitality companies. So they specialize in hospitality design. And I worked there for a while. And then I moved to a company that did residential and commercial and retail. So it was a multi-discipline company, which was, it was quite nice because then you come, you exposed to completely different ways of delivering interior projects as well.

9:44That's quite nice. Because, yeah, you get that whole different psychology across the country. Yeah, exactly. And different, yeah, psychology, branding. Yeah. And just different clients, really. Yeah. I mean, I've dealt with every type of clients you can think of. Yeah, I can imagine. but yeah so i did that and then i did my own company for a while a couple of years in south africa yeah so i had my own studio and there i was doing the same residential commercial and i also did some um education so that was really great yes and i had an art gallery as well when i had that with a very dear friend of mine so we started this art gallery on the side which was fab yeah it was really fun that was side hustling yeah exactly side hustling but i do love art and and obviously being a designer it's such a big part of an interior as well i feel like art really transforms the space and you can tell a story just by the materials that you've used in the design but then the art is the finishing you know the icing on the cake is that finishing it perfect presentation and everything so I've always been very passionate about art and I always think about it when I'm designing a scheme I think oh where could I put art or would this client appreciate art yeah so then did you come to the UK so then I moved to Johannesburg after that I worked in quite a big company doing commercial um offices there I was exposed to some really fantastic brands big international brands doing their offices um it was a wonderful experience met some great designers and then i moved to the uk so do you still work with any of those south african designers no i don't actually know which is sad but they were so talented like amazing amazing designers like out the box thinking always pushing the limits of every single design scheme that they were doing it was really actually very inspirational working with them if there was one thing you could break from south africa but in england what would it be oh um the texture color pattern i do miss that massively um i think that was something that was always quite open for you know freedom and and playfulness yeah vibrant and yeah i was able to always like have quite bold gold color patterned you know furniture fabrics um art again the art was just really bold and bright and it was also lovely that I was able to use so many local artists um because South Africa is quite well known for up-and-coming artists and the creativity of you know product designers out there if you think of like a Nando's every Nando's is always designed differently was a South African chain.

12:48And last I heard, they always liked to have South African product designers designing their stasis. And that you can almost see now when you see Nando's, you think, oh, you know, it's always quite bright. It's quite bold, beautifully made furniture and items in there, but creative. And I do, not saying that we don't have that in the UK. I think the UK is quite refined in the design style and slightly a bit more traditional, but not saying that. They were right or wrong. No, it's not right and wrong, and it's just cultures. It was just cultures. It's just more reserved. It's more subdued, I guess.

13:30We just have less of a culture of colour, and I don't know really where it comes from, but we should look into it. We just don't have a culture of much colour or much vibrancy or much expression like that. I think it's coming, though. I think it is changing. And yeah, definitely other countries do. I think we're learning from other countries. Yeah, it's exactly that. It's exactly that. It's, you know, we now are melting pots here in the UK. We have so many different cultures and people with different experiences and different outlooks on life. And that's definitely influencing the interiors that we're seeing.

14:05You know, and it's actually fantastic. It's a great time to watch how the design landscape is changing. And it's not so much about trends anymore, is it? It's more just good design and good design principles. And I love that because I'm not someone who obsesses about a trend. It's just not me. I believe in design principles and good design. is, you know, if you design by these principles, it will be a timeless, beautiful design. Yeah. Do you use a psychology of color in your spaces? Yeah, often, yeah. Or do you find that brand, their brand color? Yeah, probably times. What's the psychology behind it?

14:50You don't know what you said. Yeah, it does make sense. I think it really does depend on the brand itself. Often we design with marketing teams and they do drive a lot of color choice and pattern that we use within the space, whether that's, you know, whatever it is, whether it's routing on acoustic panels or whether it's the carpet tiles or whether it's like, you know, actual patterns that we cut into the sea lanes or into the flooring design. Yes, that is sometimes driven by the marketing team. But I think holistically overall, you have a vision as a designer and that's what makes the space successful.

15:33And then if you can work with the marketing team to inject their brand in, then you've done a good job because holistically, the design is still your design. They're just working with you to refine it where it's going to make their brand best. Yeah, I think we're seeing in a really positive way, instead of people literally using their brand color. Yeah, they use a tonal palette from their brand guidelines or it's just like in certain areas of the space that they would want their brand colors implemented. Or it's also about brand philosophy as well. I also think it shouldn't be just about, oh, we, I don't know, I don't want to say the brand, but, you know, we, a certain brand.

16:17It would be Coca-Cola. Okay, so yes, now everything's going to be red because it's Coca-Cola. And I don't think it's going to be like, it shouldn't be seen like that unless you like lego and you want you know this amazing clayful interior yeah but they yeah most brands i would think are more about their philosophy and making sure that their brand guidelines and their brand principles are used while designing out the space and then where needed in front of house or in your key client areas you would have you know the bold brand the red yeah yeah yeah i would definitely say that more of an interpretation of their brand values rather than their brand so like open the happiness would be their front value vision whatever it is so then they might use soft pinks or warm yeah because that resembles and it's also tonal from their brand guidelines probably but yeah yeah it's good that move yeah i think so i don't like seeing people's like corporate color it's just like we need to find a curtain in this blue really in this specific blue yeah it's my panther here we get a dial on out so when you came to the uk like obviously you wished you could have brought the colors and the textures because that would be fun and i wish you could have done too so i would love to see that what's one of the most unexpected challenges that hit you when you landed here so one of the big things I realized um when I moved here was in South Africa I had the budgets that I worked with were very different to here right so um it was something that I had to get used to the in the UK things are just way more expensive so your project budgets are so much bigger and I had to really think about how and learn very quickly how expensive things were because because labor is quite affordable in south africa you are able to be quite creative and you'll be able to really push the boundaries of some things that like joinery for instance um your joinery packages could be you know a couple of hundred thousand rand but in the uk your joinery package is packaged as soon as it's like a hundred thousand pounds that's a lot of money in comparison do you know what i mean and and i think labor because labor is so affordable there um you were able to just be a bit more creative with the space because of that i see i didn't even thought that but of course like no yeah it's just something that i had to kind of get used to very quickly um yeah it's a kind of labor intensive like joinery suddenly you have to almost add up for more product-led solution.

19:09Exactly. Exactly that. Exactly that. So we would always just, you know, throw it in the joinery package or if it's something quite intricate on site, throw more labor at it. You know, so that was just honestly how it went and it didn't cost the air. Whereas as soon as you throwing more labor on it in the UK, it adds up very quickly. Yeah, very quickly. Yeah, that's good. Also, now in the UK, you have worked for some really big brands, if I'm able to say it like that. Yeah. And you are now at Echospace, which I'd say my interpretation of Echospace, so you can tell me if I'm right or wrong, is quite boutique.

19:52It is boutique. That's how we would describe ourselves, yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah, you're all right. um i get this kind of quite sort of like personalized and quite like hand-holding quite like family it's probably not the right word to say family but you get why i say that i always i think i've told you this before i always say we don't ever call ourselves a family because you can't choose your family but you can choose your team and that's a big thing um it seems boring i know it sounds boring but we do have a different word for ourselves we call ourselves islanders because we're like we always caught up we we've called ourselves from the very beginning echo island so we see echo space of echo island um and then we come to the mainland to you know get the work and everything but then we always go back to the island um where we are as our little team and we just work together to make sure that the team is successful and the business is successful and what's that inspired of love island nice I've never watched a Love Island episode Is it not?

20:58Well I never came up with the Echo Island but I don't think I mean no one told me it was I just guessed it was No I wasn't doing it Did you not? No sorry I feel like I've just let you down I mean to be honest I don't actually watch Love Island It's just like just like young designers and trendy I imagine they all watch Love Island Yeah, I think some of my designers definitely do art. I imagine they're like, oh, let's call ourselves the islanders. Yeah, I could just say it sort of vibrant. We came up with the concept because we do see ourselves slightly differently because we are this tiny team who've basically grown the company together and we've really gone through the really hard times and the really good times together.

21:45But we've gone through it together as our little island. um so nothing don't worry i like the tight knit team that you say yeah tighty that's kind of cool yeah it is cool um i mean yeah so explain the island to me talk to me about the island i like it i love this i love i love like designs um like all like brand psychology is and things yeah so we have the sales team who go out it's like every company though isn't it we have a sales team the delivery team your your pre-car and your design but so um you have your tail team who go out and they find the leads and they go and find the fish and then you have the um the designers who are busy making the space a livable space you know making building the hat or not building it designing up the the the huts for you to live in and then you have the delivery team who are you know going to organize the build of the huts and potentially build the huts themselves um yeah so and that's that you know creates our little ecosystem fsc ecosystem um on uh on the island yeah and then we all come together and if if one person isn't working well on the island either we we go and we try and um help them to do their job better or just do it for them while they recover or whatever it is um but yeah we'll just send them back to the mainland that's harsh what's it called when you don't ship someone off you were exiled that's the word I was looking for it's like Survivor we wrote you up terrible so what's the if you work for a boutique brand what is the worst thing about working for a big brand oh gosh I think there is the risk that you become a number in a big brand so you just you know you just become part of the production line and that and that's that is something that i think does happen i have friends and their companies as well and sometimes they say they do feel like they're just a number they're just that another cog in you know the wheel whatever you call it um but yeah and so what but i do think like big brands also have their own you know that if they're successful companies so they're doing something right as well it's not like they're not oh no um yeah right it's just i guess from your experience at being both it's kind of quite i guess it's quite start yeah it's very corporate the one side and you you know get get your work done yeah and then we do have a more personal side to it but i think it's also because we are a small team and we've been together for a long time as a team so we know each other very well which is good as well that is good and there's not it's not to down big players or anything because it's just literally it's just too it's not a right and a wrong no exactly that exactly that there's no right and there's no wrong it's just yeah and if you were to up like because echo space is growing and everything and it's to be this huge brand how would you i don't think it's ever going to be a huge brand i was going to say how are you going to maintain yeah i don't think we want it to be too much bigger than what we are at the moment yeah um yeah let's try and keep that personal yeah personalized element of the business and the personality as well of the business yeah and knowing everywhere yeah it's kind of quite difficult when it's like 300 people yeah exactly i don't know what we're gonna do okay all right cool yeah that's nice to know yeah and what's the um obviously like you're working with um you're a lot more personal you've got like your relationships that's something but what what do you say is different in a boutique brand from like actually designing and delivering a job like how would you say that different i think there's more hands-on from day one to completion i think for myself um i am on site every week um my technical design is on site nearly every day and obviously we have our project team delivering and everything but I think there's just a bit more client hand-holding and that's something that I enjoy because I get to know my clients really well and you're forming like a lasting relationship which is really important.

26:13Did you used to do teaching? Yes so I used to teach design and I used to teach technical design as well. This was in South Africa? Yeah in South Africa yeah. I'm Yeah, so I actually used to have a full-time job and then I would teach evening classes. So it would be quite difficult. And then I would get home at night at a little o 'clock at night. So it was quite a hot day. Has that changed how you lead your team today? Yeah, definitely. I would say, Bo, yeah. I think patience is a big thing and encouraging them to ask questions and not just assuming they know the answers when assuming that they know because often people don't know and they just keep quiet and then the silence is almost like okay well you know so carry on um and then I think it can make designers feel a bit awkward as well because they're like okay well I'm supposed to know this and I actually don't know and now if I go and ask someone they're gonna think I don't know how I'm what I'm doing or I don't know my job but that's not true like I yeah I always told the designers is ask questions.

27:23And I always told my students, ask me questions because sometimes I may not even know the answer and then I'll have to go look it up. Yeah, but don't be afraid to ask questions. And I learned, I would say, a large portion of what I know from being on site and asking questions and learning from the traders on site. And yeah, I would highly recommend people do that if they are new designers starting out. And do you find that people go quiet and that's just like a red flag? Like they don't know the answer? Does that scare you? No, it doesn't scare me. I just would ask them because, you know, I'm African.

28:09I'm pretty blunt. I'll just say, do you know the answer? If you don't know, just tell me. So you're pretty comfortable with that? Oh, yeah, 100%. and yeah it's kind of taught you that yeah exactly your culture background yeah it's definitely culture but also i just don't assume everyone knows the answer because and that's that's okay as well you don't need to know the answer no definitely not what would you say to someone starting out in design yeah ask questions i would definitely say that and go to site um because like i say you learn so much from the guys and girls on site can like the education system change that though because i do hear that a bit like you must get out of sight must get experience no because the thing is like yeah internship is pretty good though i will i will say that but um i think going to site because it's a working site you're building to a set of construction plans um and you're dealing with site problems you know there and then and you learning solutions and learning technologies and you can only really do that when you're on site so I think the more exposure you have to that the better I'm wondering if the education system could almost bring that in or kind of like bring some tradies into the university I know but like it feels like people this is how you install an FCU what's an FCU?

29:43the fan call you and there we go i feel like people like you study at university so long and then they come out and then it's like it's all book knowledge it's all textbook knowledge isn't it which is not a bad thing no it's not it's just kind of like i remember doing technical drawings in uni and doing details and um when i was doing um details and stuff out in industry and I went to meet this joiner the one time and he looked at my drawings and he was like this is so detailed so I was like yeah it's a joinery drawing and he literally looked at me and he like put it to the side and he's like what do you want it to look like give me the dimensions and then he did it he didn't even look at the drawing really because he was like I know what I'm doing I don't need you to tell me what I'm doing what do you want it to look like how does have to function and i'll do it you know how do you answer that yeah yeah exactly yeah he knows because he knows the materials i'm yes i'm a designer yes i'm trained yes i'm all these things but sometimes the people who do this job every day they know what they're doing they you don't need to sometimes tell them in detail drawings constantly this is and this piece of mdf has to go here they often have a better solution of their sleeve yeah i do get that and also like sometimes we i'm not saying that he don't do drawings like but i'm saying like speak to people because they know what they're doing i also feel like designers have this like mammoth task where they kind of if they do do all these drawings i can detail like you're saying like you've got across like so many industries and so much like i don't everything of a building and when it comes to actually installing you've got all these specialists like verticals like coming into it you can't expect one person to know all of that yeah and then also you're on the that's just from the practical build side but then from the other side you're almost acting like a psychologist like imagining how people are going to think and feel behave in this space and how to sort of i don't know promote this sort of emotion or mitigate that emotion yeah exactly Exactly.

32:05Designing in pinch points or designing out pinch points and all that kind of like psychology. Yeah. And I don't think it's physically possible for a human to do all of that. Well, definitely not all the technical knowledge, but you need to have a very good understanding of most of it. I think it's I get quite mind blown. Yeah. I like what is required. Yeah, definitely. It is. It's a lot. And it's often something that I've always thought about because I sometimes get frustrated when someone says, oh I'm an interior designer and then you're like oh what did you study and then they haven't and then you're like okay so you actually just like buying pretty things I know it sounds terrible but there's so much technical um information and knowledge that designers need to know it's um yeah it is actually very impressive like our yeah our teams that we work with they yeah it's impressive i definitely even today's world like more and more like they're pretty much asked to be like psychologists as well and yeah yeah people and then that whole delivery art and then it's all like the whole world is speeding up so everything's like everything's happening so short we've got so short to design a space yeah definitely and you've got to immerse yourself especially in our world yeah this one yeah plan and build i mean it's like plan and build of options yeah it's just that yeah and how can you immerse yourself in a brand and understand i don't think people are fair in terms of the expectation of time of what's like yes either in the money and in the time that they get to you to actually do yeah the design and be creative because i'll often say that i'll say to the designers like being a designer you need to have the capacity the mental capacity to also be creative and you can't just expect someone to churn out of creativity because that's not it's not part of the creative process like you know um especially if you're stressed out you're not going to be super creative you need to be able to you know have some time actually think about the design think about what the best solutions are you know what the what the end goal is what do you want it to feel like what do you want to look like and um yeah and you need time for that and so it doesn't just like happen you know take the hand yeah it's not a it's not like an excel sheet no exactly and then even understanding like what the brand is about and what's important to them because they might not even know yeah that's also true like i've often so i've worked with startups before and they don't even know what the brand guidelines are yet like what they stand for what the core values are because they're still working it out so that's also part of that whole process like you but it's quite nice when it's at that phase because you have a bit of influence on it as well um from the interior side because it becomes those yeah those values and the brand guidelines and all that the interior just becomes an extension of that doesn't it yeah just completely off of all you made me think what is a brand you would absolutely dream to work with i would love to do a fashion house like um oh cool yeah like a really like stella mccartney or just that kind of design house kind of vibe um but it'd be intimidating no i don't think it would be i just think it would be interesting to do that i think it would be fun and would you design an intimidating space no I think quite soft and feminine isn't it um but yeah like this okay yeah but that office could be yeah exactly it could be anything but I there's a few brands that I've I've actually been very lucky to work with some really fantastic brands out there already but yeah I mean that's cool I love it I love it for any sort of people the brands I would like to work with you always get a bit of an insight into the person yeah you clearly have got that fashion yeah I would love to do a fashion house i think and it's probably yeah i mean it would just be interesting to also know how they work um and understand like how that whole industry works because it's a creative industry but it's also quite time-driven as well and yeah there is similarities yeah yeah and before we finish off susan i really appreciate your time um but what's one book or podcast you would recommend oh i listen to diary of a ceo i i find um yeah i find the guests fascinating and i like that stephen bartlett asks the questions that i would ask normally yeah um or in my head i'm like oh but what about this and then he normally asks that question so i like that it's quite relatable um and i think some of these guests are very insightful so yeah so you have a different i've ever guessed oh yeah i do actually it was this lady um her name is erica and she's like a a psycho what is she she's like a child psychologist um but yeah she she was so interesting that she also made me feel like i'm i'm a pretty bad mom but she was really interesting and um very insightful yeah yeah okay but amazing i need to i haven't really watched him to be honest and i should do it yeah it's like the podcast of all podcasts isn't it yeah like nutrition wise money children everything is on there it's very good oh fantastic well thank you so much really appreciate that whole like backstory and understanding it's really cool and yeah thank you everyone for tuning in and listening and if you can do the whole like follow review algorithm things.

37:57Algorithms are weird. I don't know what that is. Algorithms are really techy. Yeah. But thank you, everybody. And thank you again, Cesar. Thank you.