Why every space needs a purpose with Daniel Martin

0:00So I don't think you have to fill every nook and cranny. A space should have areas to breathe so it doesn't feel too compact, but it should have purpose. Designing for a purpose I think is quite important. There's a time and a place for all these different styles, but I think for a designer it's really fun to do different things, that you're not just doing the same thing day in, day out. It's quite daunting designing for designers. You know how they sort of say like doctors make the worst patients. Well, D &B firms make the worst clients. Three years after we've started this podcast, we thought it was time to make sure that those lessons and the takeaways from our amazing guests were actually actionable.

0:42Something you can really put into place. So we have launched show notes, a bi-weekly email, get into your inbox and that will give you the key headlines that is indexable, findable, actionable. We can really start to make a difference in creating healthy, happy workspaces. So the link's below or you can head to stansons.co.uk forward slash space. Look forward to seeing you sign up. Welcome Dan, we've got Dan Martin, Senior Designer AIS with us today, so thanks Dan, thanks for coming along No, thank you for having me Early in the morning, another episode of Space by Stansons, Dan, it's great to have you Are you an early bird or a night owl?

1:27So I think I used to be a bit more of a night owl, now it's a little bit more of an early bird Like I think my body clock has slowly been reset so that even at the weekends I'm now sort of waking up at sort of seven But it's very much for work, making sure that I'm on time, get in the office, get a desk. Yeah. Is there not enough desks in the office for everyone? Not at the moment, but we are moving soon, so there will be enough desks. Oh, when do you move? Two weeks. Oh, exciting. Yeah, yeah. So the office is coming together, so we're moving very soon. Boom. And then there'll be enough desk for everyone?

1:59Yes. Then you can get in the tent. Yeah. I can just swan in and just be like, hi, everybody. Are you doing the design? I am, yeah, along with Katia. We're both working on it together. So it's quite daunting designing for designers. You know how they sort of say like doctors make the worst patients? Well, D &B firms make the worst clients. So it's been a challenge, but it's been one that's good. So the feedback so far on the renders and the design has been really good. So I'm really hoping that Everybody loves it as they come in on the 3rd of August. Yeah, our first day in the office. I'm going to put it on my diary.

2:40I'm going to come and see it. Yeah, do. Would you give me a tour? Yeah, definitely. Would you? I can't wait. I love a new office. We've got a couple of sentence curtains going in. So, yeah, Natalia has been helping us. Shout out to Natalia. Absolutely. Okay, let's talk about that office. That's really cool. When you start with inspiration, are you like Pinterest or are you always just getting inspiration? you're just trying to find spaces to put them in. Someone said there's no such thing as a monopoly on a good idea. And so I'm kind of like, well, if you can draw inspiration from different sources, then do that.

3:11So I will use Pinterest. I will on Instagram, saving reels and imagery and anything that sort of draws my attention so I can sort of look back at it and sort of go, oh, that worked. Or you see some colours that work or a really cool material. Yeah. So I kind of think pull inspiration from everywhere. And also from my colleagues. It's always great to have a chat with them. There's something about being in a studio, working with people. And sometimes you're looking at something for too long. You go a bit snowblind and you just pull someone in and you say, you've got five minutes. And they go, yeah, yeah, of course.

3:44You go over and they sort of look at it and they go, why haven't you done that? And you go, oh my God, why didn't I do that? That's such a good idea because you've just been looking at it for too long. So I think it really does come from anywhere and everywhere and it's about channeling it and making that final decision that pulls it all together do you start off with a sketch pad like drawing with real pencils and real paper or are you on like an ipad yeah no i tend to use the uh tablet when i'm when i'm sketching or anything else i don't know why i used to use paper but i and i used to have um hundreds of of notebooks uh which is quite nice you get like a collection of all your notebooks But then also it's like you go, I don't know where it is.

4:24So I find having things digitally and it arranges all your notebooks within it. And you can sort of go in, you're like, for this project, I'll use this one. So I know I'm working on the new office. So I go, okay, 107 notebook, going straight into that. And it's all there as opposed to flipping through going, where was it? So I find it helps me a bit more. There's just a little like notebook one on the Samsung one that it came with. Notebook one. Yeah, done. Just easy. I like it. And when you're designing, are you like mood boards early on or are you getting a floor plans strategy sort of earlier first?

4:58It's a bit of both. It's a bit of both. Sometimes pulling together that mood board can give you a little break from it. And then also it might redirect where you're headed or you have an idea. So I think it's kind of in tandem, like, you know, thinking about materials, putting that together. and then also that initial layout, how you're working on... It's different for every project really, but it might have amazing sightlines and great vistas that you want to preserve or there might be things that you want to hide and what sort of a route you want. And it depends on the client. Some clients want a very organised, structured space.

5:35Others want the space for you to wander and meander around and find your way. I don't think there's any sort of set rule and it just depends, project to project. I really like when I talk to AIS, I spoke to AIS, the strategy team, and I really like how they almost had quite a traditional approach to strategy. And then it goes to design and almost quite traditional again, in a great way, in a most complimentary way. It's quite... I don't want to say departmentalised because that sounds like fractured, like it's not got communication. It's not like that. It is very clear too. there's different departments and they've got the whole strategy piece and the whole design piece.

6:13I just always thought it was lovely when I spoke to the strategy guys. Obviously, their whole job is to come up with how to improve the workflow, how the space can work better, getting that feedback from the employees on what they want, what the company needs, just that real defining a brief, giving us a clear strategy. Because if we've got a brief that doesn't actually meet what you want, then what we produce won't be what you want. So getting that information up front is so important to creating a process that's worthwhile for everybody and it makes it more efficient. Nobody's wasting their time, the client's not wasting their time by going around the ringer and being like, that's not quite what we want, can we try it again?

6:58So I think that's a real, having that defined brief, knowing what you want. There's always time for exploring and everything else, but in D &B it's quite fast. So a clear brief can save hours and so much money as well. I mean, everyone says it, don't they? But the worst thing is to end up with a beautiful fish you're really happy with if you come in and in some spots they're not used and they're just underutilized or whatever, it just doesn't work for whatever reason. No, exactly. You're paying per square foot. Every space counts. You want it to work or have a purpose. I don't think you have to fill every nook and cranny.

7:42A space should have areas to breed so it doesn't feel too compact, but it should have purpose. Designing for a purpose, I think, is quite important and giving it a reason. It's got a job to do, what is the job, how can we make it work, how can we make it aesthetically pleasing. All these different things that come together when you're creating a space I think is really important. What's your favorite material? I'm a bit of a sucker for marble or reconstituted stone in that way, but I do also love a bit of walnut. I think I'm a bit bougie, really. I've got the Jetsman Club vibes now. Maybe, maybe, yeah, maybe that's where I want to be, so I'm trying to create it and channel it.

8:25But yeah, no, I think it's those sort of materials that are timeless and will work for Ezra, and they never really go out of style, you know. Quite luxurious. Yeah, yeah, but not everything has to be luxury. No, no, no, but that's cool. What's the worst material? Oh, controversially. Yeah. I'm not a massive fan of woven vinyl. I am re-exploring it and seeing how it can be used and the different textures and tones and the recyclability of it, that it doesn't just end, the death of the product isn't just on site, that it can go on to another life or it can be recycled at the end is quite important.

9:06So making sure that that does steer my decision on materials as well. So yeah, Wafen Vinyl has been one of my bugbears. Why is it a bugbear? It's one of those things that you know where it's been installed and then afterwards the client complains about it and you're like, I don't want to put that in again because I don't want to deal with the complaints afterwards. Because it just means it's not doing its job right. Yeah. So when they're like, oh, the cleaners don't know how to deal with it, this and the other, and you're like, oh, okay. And you need to come up with something else, which means again, you've just wasted money, you've wasted their time and you've put something in that they then want ripped out so it's not sustainable.

9:45You're always learning from experience, aren't you? Absolutely. I mean, that's always happening. Oh, yeah, yeah. Of course. We even find out suggesting fabrics to guys like you, and we think we're on to the next best thing in the world, and then it comes to a store and it doesn't steam properly and hang drape properly or whatever. It's just like, oh my goodness, I didn't want to do this, Jude. Now I've learnt my lesson. Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah. It's nothing worse than a beautiful voil or anything, and it's got a crease in the middle of it across the window, and that's all you see. and they're like and you can you can sort of see the client going is that right and you're like no it's not right we'll fix it yeah and then the guy comes to steam it and steam it and steam it to try and get it out and yeah like that tumbled look does come in doesn't it like that is our home kind of almost inspired that like real tumbled that um creased for an everyday word no yeah is that kind of a vibe but yeah it has to right material right place right material right place So making sure that if you've gone for a scheme and some of the beauty is in the imperfection and it being that sort of level, then that's perfect.

10:49But if it is something that needs to be super clean and architectural and you just want every clean line, those are the hardest ones to do. The ones that are a little bit more industrial, a little bit more rough and ready, you can get away with a little bit more. Which do you prefer to design? I love both. Oh, really? Yeah. I've got areas and projects that are quite bougie and we say the marbles and the walnut and brass and that. But then I've got ones that are in warehouses with exposed brick and concrete. I did a project with a client that was really fun. They were a gaming client and they wanted it to look like a space station.

11:26So we created a space station and we had like, you know, hanging moss balls and like a hydroponics bay and like a bridge. and a galley, and it was all spaceship themed. And I think there's a time and a place for all these different styles, but I think for a designer it's really fun to do different things. You're not just doing the same thing day in, day out. You don't get bored that way. I don't mind any style done properly. I don't ask about anything. You love Japanese, don't you? Yeah. If I was to pick a favorite style, it's hard to say, but I do think like Japanese, like They're wabby-sabby, very honest, clean, simple.

12:08Yeah. But that, again, is everything is done for a reason. There is history. There are reasons. There are decisions that were made that led to that, that sort of honor the materiality, how they got there, the story. Nothing is just, oh, because. If you ask them, what's this nook for, they'll explain the history behind it. everything else, why have you got the mats on the floor? And they'll explain that and how that links to all their traditional craftsmanship and everything and how they've come there. I think that's really, really nice with that story, that reason, that rhyme, and again, come back to that sort of purpose.

12:45Do you think that's going to become more of a thing? Because that's one thing AI can't do for us, isn't it? Build those deep, meaningful stories. It can try. It can try and put them in there. But I think there is the human connection, AI doesn't quite understand our relationship with materials and that sort of haptic quality and the history that things have with us that, again, tell that story and that purpose-driven. I love how it's really imperfect, but it's not like country, like rough industrial, but it's still kind of quite imperfect, but on a very clean level. There's just something so calming and pleasing about it.

13:31I don't know. Yeah, I'm too sick of all that. No, it's good. Do you think AI is making designers lazy or just faster? I don't think it's making designers lazy. I think designers are having to work harder to prove our worth in a way because you can go on to chat GVT or Grok or whatever and say like, oh, how should I do this room? And it'll come up with a hundred and one different ways. 99 % of them won't work, that they will have added in a window or a skylight or light that you just will never get, things like that. But I think it's making people have the perception that design is easier than it is, that any project we do, we have to make, as a team, we make well over a million decisions where that wall will be placed, what flooring we're putting in, the wall finishes, how this all comes together, every, you know, the mechanical, the electrical, like over a million decisions that your team is making to reach that destination.

14:29I think you kind of forget behind any project, there is a whole team of people working really, really hard to create what the client wants, what they need. All of that sort of comes together. So, but it is then explaining that to people because AI kind of makes it look a lot easier. Yeah, I think designers are just having to work harder. So, it's like anything. You can use it as a tool to help, but our experience and actually talking to the client... And AI is only as good as the instructions that you give it. And very often the client doesn't know what they want. So we have to fill in the gaps, use our knowledge, and create something.

15:09So I don't think that designers are going to be replaced just yet. When people are doing it for their homes and everything else, it's only a matter of time before they try and start doing it for their offices as well. I literally think that's the best answer I've ever heard about AI for designers. I just agree with so much of it. I'm relating it to using ChatGBT as your PT in the gym versus having a PT. You don't know what you don't know. I think that was such a good point. You don't know what to ask it because you don't know. You need a professional that does know to maybe even ask you the questions to extract knowledge.

15:43Yeah, someone that catches it. someone that knows, okay, in this building, you physically can't punch a giant hole through it, it won't work, or the reasons why, how the mechanical systems work. It is all of those decisions that your team is making. And even that you're making, like, from a cost saving, like the most viable way of doing this, it's not only, I mean, aesthetics as well, but it's not only aesthetics, it's so much deeper than that. Yeah, but the AI isn't going to then explain it to all your subcontractors, and they're not the ones that's going to walk around site and check that things are being installed and everything's going as they want.

16:19It can't do that. No, I think that's a really strong point. I really like it. What is your favorite space to design in the office? I kind of go through different... Sometimes I love designing a meeting room, sometimes it's a reception area, sometimes it's the breakout area. I think it changes client to client and project to project based on what their need and what they're most excited for. If the client hasn't had a really nice breakout space before for their staff and they really want one and you're like, okay, we can give them something that their staff's going to love and it's going to make everyone's lives a bit better.

16:59And how can we do that? And I think that's what design should do. It should make things better. I think I've told you this one before, but a long time ago, maybe a decade ago now, was designing a small sort of waiting area for Wella Hair in Manchester. And it's a school where they were teaching hairdressers how to cut hair. So they have lots of models come in. But these models aren't your sort of typical, you know, what you would expect model. They are old ladies who are getting their hair cut and permed, and that they need to learn how to do all of their hairstyles. But they were coming into this waiting area and it had been designed as sort of a slightly cool and trendy space, but it just was not fit for purpose.

17:45So you were sort of looking at these boxes and these little old ladies sitting on these cubes that were way too low, had no arms. They couldn't help getting out of them. So they're sort of just standing in the corner looking awkward. So it was about putting in a proper table for them, a space for them to sit, chairs that had arms, a space, sofas and armchairs that they could easily get in and out of in this area and creating different zones for them so they could go and sit and talk. They might all come in for an 11 o 'clock class, so they've got their hair being done, so there's all of them in one spot, so they want to sit together or do they want to sit separately.

18:21So then it was at the end of that when we'd designed it, developed it all and went in at the end and then you see the ladies, you know, in and out the chair, laughing, using the space as you intended, was a really, really nice feeling that you sort of, you go, okay, the decisions that we made and getting to this point, they're now using the space and they don't necessarily know that we've done anything or who we are. We're just these people sort of standing looking at them and they're going, oh, why are they here? But we're sort of, you know, so pleased with ourselves that they're able to use the chairs and they look comfortable and you've given that space a purpose and it's doing its job.

18:56And that to me is a really, really nice feeling that is quite satisfying and that, again, design made it better by considering their needs and working it all out. And I think that was, yeah, it's one of the things that I still hold onto. Good design should make everything better. Yeah. I love seeing the space used once it's in play and how it changes behaviors, behaviors, and it literally does, and how it improves behaviors, well-being. It just does so much to the human mind and what we're comfortable to do or not to do. It's just amazing. If you've got a dead space and your office is just poorly designed or connected to something else wrongly, do you know what I mean?

19:46It's so good. What spaces do you think we're going to start to see in offices that we're not really seeing at the minute? Spaces that are more dedicated to more singular purposes. Interesting. So, a space that is fit for a proper video call or a space that is very much fit for the meeting being the best, most productive space it can be. whilst sort of you know flexibility has its area i think that those places that are sort of you know too flexible and jack of all trades are masters of none so you've got a space that just isn't fit for a singular purpose so it can do it but it can't do it very well so i think it's it's more dedicated spaces for a purpose a bit of a twist from the trend where everything was a multi space?

20:41Yeah, I think that people are inherently a little bit lazy. And when you think about those super flexible spaces, who's the person that's doing it? Well, it might be the facilities team, then they're the ones that've got to reset this room and sort it all out and then put it all back. And I think that they either need to be made easier to do and furniture and the wall systems and everything else are getting a lot better. And they are a lot easier for people. No one's catching their hands in a flip-top table anymore. But that is still, people have to set it all up and get it all right. And I think that those spaces are, from my experience anyway, people don't love those as much because they don't want to have to reset it all.

21:28And not everyone's got a facilities team to move stuff around. No. Yeah, it tends to get in one place and then left. Fair enough. and what spaces are going to start to die out? I think it's very much client by client. Some people, you know, I had a client recently tell me that they never wanted to see a well-being room on their plan. And if I showed them another one, that they would be quite unhappy, which was quite an interesting one. And then other clients are saying, no, really want a well-being room. So I think it depends industry by industry, client by client. And yeah, it's hard to say, I think, which ones are going because sometimes a space that you haven't thought of for a long time, a client says, well, where's this room?

22:11And you go, oh, okay. And you put it back in. And yeah, it's always interesting. It's never boring. No, for sure not. No. What colors are coming in? Colors. I think you guys are still very much the terracottas, the warmth. I think we're going away from the era of gray and people want color. So spaces that are still that sort of, you know, the resimersial spaces that make you feel reminiscent of home with the warmth coming through from like, you know, the terracottas, the greens, the earthy tones. I think those are still very much in. But I think the colder spaces, the millennial gray, as it's sometimes referred to, is on its way out a little bit more.

22:56that sort of clinical look is not what people want so much anymore. No, I'm starting to see like a nice blue coming about. Yeah. I don't know if it's getting in any projects yet, but it's still a nice colour. It's, yeah, I mean, it's definitely all blue. Yeah. Like this. Yeah, so it's a good colour. Good go. But we have to tone it with other things, otherwise it can feel, again, cold. Yeah. So it's about... So what do you pair it with? Well, it'll do the navy. Works quite well, I find. But yeah, it's also, you know, like the use of timbers, everything else in there, the right stone. It's, I think, creating a space that doesn't feel too clinical, unless you are creating a clinical space.

23:35So, yeah. True, true, yeah. Very good. Oh, nice. That's so interesting. Like, I like to see the blue coming in. I do agree, done wrong, which I'm sure you never would do, it can fill the corporate and a bit like the old, like office blue. But when it starts to get paired with like browns, I actually quite like it with the back of nice chocolate brown and the pale blue. Yeah, yeah. And creams and things go in there and they can make it look a little bit elevated. Yeah, it can. It's a bit more gentleman club. Yeah. Do you listen to music when you're focusing or silence? No, I do. If I'm in the office and you want to get your head down, yes, but I'm a bit weird.

24:17I will listen to random anime, Japanese sort of music from a theme. I'm going to listen to it. Just stick that on because then I'm not necessarily listening to the words because I don't speak Japanese. But I like the tunes, the melodies or the anime that it was from. So I'm a bit of a nerd, really. I like it. I actually like listening to the music that people mention to me. And then I go away and I listen to it and I see what it's like. And you're like, Dan was off his rocker, what is he? I probably will, but he doesn't know any of this. It's just a language he doesn't understand. Yeah, you'd be like, what is this relating to?

24:56What are they? Yeah. But then I do have lo-fi beats and stuff like that in my head. Yeah. When I'm concentrating, it's quite normal. I'm sure lots of people do that. Based on reading the book as well, I'll put on something that I think is the right theme. So, it's something that's... I'm reading a book about the Live Ship series at the moment. So it's all about pirates and people on seaside. I was trying to listen to music that's kind of like a D &D music designed for that, but it's quite nice to have that on in the background as well. It's theatrical, aren't you? I think every designer is. Yeah.

25:31I think you have to be. Well, yeah, I'm sure you have to be. But to the point of listening to the right music when you're reading a book, I wouldn't have thought of that. Well, it's very much setting the tone, setting the scene. All of that does come back to design. Like right now, the lighting in here is lower because it's a different type of setting. So it's exactly the same sort of principle. You're creating a space, you're curating an event, you're setting the scene, you're setting the stage. So you've got to think about the music, the music, the scent, the lighting, everything, how that changes how you feel.

26:07When you go into a space and you've got bright white lighting and it's a little bit colder, that changes how you feel in a space. But if you go in and you've got a warm 3K light or something, everything's a little bit more orange, but it's a little bit warmer, a little bit more inviting. I think that's very much what we do. and then those sort of habits I think just come across you know if I've got guests over I'll make sure it's set the right way for them offering the right drink in the right glass you know all these sort of things so that it feels like it's been considered and and for a purpose and I think that's yeah kind of what I inevitably do across everything else so I'll try and you know put the right music on for what I think I'm listening to and set the scene so I can get a little bit immersed in it and a little bit lost.

26:53I think that's kind of what I tend to do across everything. I love it. Really inspiring. Dan, thank you so much for coming on. Our time is crazily up. You wouldn't believe it, but really interesting chat. Thanks for sharing that about the materials and spaces, everything that you're seeing coming through, everything that you're seeing not coming through. It's great to pick your brain. So thanks for joining. Oh, thank you for having me. And everyone that's followed, do your whole thing for the algorithm. Like the show and follow the show and we'll be back with our next guest. Thank you. I find it simply fascinating how physical space can totally change how we think, feel and behave.