Why the Office isn't dead with Jacinta Ashby

0:00Jacinta Ashby:It is really beneficial to have an intentional space that is there for people's wellbeing. For me, I love finding my inspiration in nature. Finding inspiration from being out and seeing how people function and come together. For me, that's what design is about. It's about people at the end of the day. This is my opportunity to be like, no, no pressures whatsoever. Just exist. Make space for my own peace. If you look at that, there are like millions of people within this frame right now. When you think of life like that, when you see life like that, you take a lot of pressure off of yourself and you allow yourself to just exist and appreciate the world around you.

0:40Three years after we've started this podcast, we thought it was time to make sure that those lessons and the takeaways from our amazing guests were actually actionable. Something you can really put into place. So we have launched show notes, a bi-weekly email, get into your inbox, and that will give you the key headlines that is indexable, findable, actionable. We can really start to make a difference in creating healthy, happy workspaces. So the link's below, or you can head to stansons.co.uk forward slash space. Look forward to seeing you sign up. hey Jacinta thank you so much for joining space by Stansons and we have Jacinta Ashby senior designer from BW what's in between BW you call it BW interiors BW D &B it used to be

1:36Jacinta Ashby:formerly BW interiors the whole company wide and then it changed to BW workplace experts and then now it's design and build like the part that I'm in yeah cool amazing so we are actually out at a coffee shop in Greenwich lovely Greenwich on this fine summer's day fine summer's day at the weekend talk to me have you been here before never do you always go to new places I love new places I think yeah there's just so much to be inspired by and I'm such in a way a free spirit and just excited about oh where else can I find inspiration or where else can I go and explore so that's why when we were just ideating it was like you know what this would be cool let's just go somewhere and figure it out wicked and what is your energy you pick up when you're here vibes yeah this is positive vibes i think as well like there's a lot of greenery here it's like very like calming to the eye like very just mellow but you can see like people talking and like people coming together sitting at their tables and enjoying themselves and i think that's what spaces are all about Is that important to you, seeing people, like, having them around?

2:49Jacinta Ashby:100%, yeah. I think we've all also had, like, the experience where you walk in somewhere, if there's no one there, you're like, this isn't a good place. Like, if there aren't other people here, why should I be here? And what do you look for in a place in terms of, like, sounds, like music, nature? Yeah, I think especially indoors, it needs to be considered in the right way noise or sound. I think everybody's had an experience where the acoustics haven't been necessarily great and it can be quite overwhelming and overstimulating yeah so I think finding that balance inside is really important but then when you're outside it's having that time and space to think when we spend time outside it's purposeful it's intentional so it's also being you know amongst nature and hearing hearing the wind go through the leaves and all the rustling and the water flowing I think having those as a contrast is really important for me okay I want to pick up on that as well um but while we're here what do you look for in a place that when you're doing your work when you're ideating or crashing through tasks what sort of space how does it change at the spaces you pick yeah I think it depends what it is like if I am looking for inspiration and in a phase where I'm like okay I want to like be a sponge and soak things up then places like this are perfect because it's really about atmosphere and people coming together.

4:11Jacinta Ashby:And then you start to analyse how people differently use spaces, but more so to crack on with my tasks. Like focus spaces are so important for me. And if I can't find that, then it's a case of putting my headphones in and putting on some music that is repetitive for me or like music that I know so my brain can just go into this really mellow state and just focus. What music do you listen to? Oh my gosh, everything. Jason Derulo is definitely in there so much Jason Derulo but yeah anything to like when I'm focusing like just like chill house music even because like the the melody is usually quite repetitive but yeah it's a mix and this is your like focus tasks kind of getting your head down yeah yeah yeah which you're not doing here no would you go to an office home yeah between the office and home if it was a cafe not like this I think this is too over stimulating for me just to be on my laptop and focus or I'd be have to face the wall put my headphones in I do find it very interesting how spaces like change how people move and think and behave what do you think the office can learn from the cafe what could we take from here into the office I definitely think acoustics is a big one you know cafes have so much going on and I think likewise offices have so much going on so it's kind of picking these push and pull points in your office where you want it to be quite vibrant and community focused versus if people do want to come and work from their laptop have a little bit of background noise but be intentionally focused and work what does that look like yeah definitely planting the background music and different kind of hierarchies in the space as well I think we've all seen an open plan office where it's just C's and rows of desking and it's to the eye like it does not feel great at all so it's like you know in the cafe there's always going to be like what we're sitting at the moment there's going to be a softer seating where you can kind of just relax into the furniture but then you've got a bar traditionally which is about 900 1100 millimeters high so that creates some different datans in the space and hierarchies so yeah it's kind of creating a visual language yeah amazing and how do you design in hierarchy like that how do you what do you do to create those different like visuals what are some ideas again it's starting from the start and understanding the space and understanding the end user and who your client is like what is going to be happening in that space and as well as the architecture like right now we've got beautiful natural light above us coming in from these skylights so it would be a shame to put say like a meeting room here and like box everything off so especially like in a working space are your desks around the perimeter where natural light coming is coming in traditionally yes and then you want to break that up so you might then start to put some hierarchy in between like the breakout tables or the touchdown zones to create those different softer elements and then your meeting rooms might sit closer to the core where there's less natural light however it depends on your client and what your end users want maybe somebody wants a brilliant boardroom that overlooks a wonderful view what's the thing you're being asked for most in an office at the moment those touch points those like softer like not meeting rooms not meeting rooms yeah obviously a functional office needs meeting rooms and that is usually a requirement but collaborative areas is becoming more and more of people's focus which is fantastic i'm starting to see offices with meeting rooms let's say with sofas in them instead of like a table and chairs i think you've got it in your space yeah absolutely wicked wicked i genius i mean and without a screen yeah just simple but great for chatting but then it's kind of private but two, because it's a meeting run?

8:05Jacinta Ashby:Yeah, well, we spend so much of our time at work and a lot of those core key conversations happen when people have their boundaries down. So when you've got a sofa or softer seating, people feel a lot more relaxed and it might be a heated argument that would occur in a meeting room, but as soon as you put yourself in a living room-like scenario, you kind of just feel relaxed and less defensive. I do think that's why like the office is never going to die because it's got all of those different spaces in one place. And whilst this is lovely, it doesn't have multiple spaces. Yeah, exactly. I agree.

8:44It's what people are needing, really.

8:46Jacinta Ashby:Yeah. And I think so as we're moving into the future, a lot more people have struggles with attention span and really finding that like focus in like the same repetitive workflow. So it's like, OK, if we need differentiation and different scenarios, what does that look like and how can people access that easily? Yeah. How often do you come to a place like this? Is it planned or just reactive? yeah I would say more reactive uh there's a coffee shop near my house which I'll go to at least once on a weekend if not twice because that's my time and that's where like I just enjoy like I mentioned before like that coffee is a hug for me so that's a really like cup filling moment but especially with friends I think it's really important to break up your week this is very relaxing like this is just more so a flow state for me I don't know if you can relate but I think it's important because we're so stressed and we're so like on the go go go all the time yeah it's really important for me anyway to break up my work day like this yeah and how often would you go to an office like to actually work in a in your office i go about five days a week and i love it yeah you can't do much more yeah yeah i think in the past i've been a very big lover of working from home and the flexibility and I still am however I love BW and I love the team and where we've got our new office as well it's yeah performing exactly what we're speaking about it's got variety it's got collaboration zones it's got focus zones so I'm not feeling like oh I can't get my work done today because their office is tech too chaotic I can actually go into work say hi to everyone but then remove myself and do what I need to do yeah yeah are you're finding that more that's happening a lot more in terms of people getting to the office full-time yeah it's been like a slow move over isn't it but yeah I think it's been a slow burn in the best way possible because it's given people a chance to properly understand what they want and how they want their employees to show up and as an employee how you best focused and most productive I'm speaking to a lot of clients now who were like we're trying to make that shift and return back to the office they're trying to make the shift they're trying to make from home yes still have it as in a policy of some shape or one another i think flexibility in the modern day is just it is priceless um but i think people are valuing workspaces a lot more than they used to yeah no that's interesting what was one thing that's like not going into the office like it used to go in sleep pods did that actually ever happen yeah especially law offices yeah is that not a bit disgusting it is a bit disgusting yeah oh here's our coffees for me i think that's encouraging a more negative working style if you are coming to work to for a nine to five and you're having to put sleep pods in then what does that say about the company's culture and expectation right of its employees and hygiene is obviously a thing oh yeah that that silly thing hygiene no but i would say on the contrast what is going to continue to come into spaces is wellness rooms and wellness spaces yoga that sort of thing or what are you yeah but sometimes you just need to take a step back right and i think when the pressures get on you you just it is really beneficial to have a intentional space that is there for people's well-being just where they can take a step back no questions asked you're starting to see those going more yeah and how do you design those differently to the rest of the office good question um i think it depends on your client especially because you wouldn't probably go put bean bags and cutesy little chairs in say like a professional lawyer's office but google's are a good example like they've got really fun spaces which are also quite well-being focused but i I think in some spaces have been really cool because you can put headphones on and there can be like a shift in the lighting.

13:06Jacinta Ashby:You know, if you kind of per se, someone might be having an anxiety attack or a panic attack and being removed and being put in a space where they can just go into like a meditative state is really beneficial, which sound and potentially visual can benefit with. However, it might just be a simple task as well as designing the acoustics really well and bringing in some nature. I think cortisol levels go down instantly when we're out in nature around beautiful planting. Like I mentioned earlier, the sounds. So that can be something really intentionally done in a well-being space just to remove any stimulation and just calm people's nervous systems.

13:44Yeah. I want to get out into nature. I think it's really important to you, isn't it?

13:49Jacinta Ashby:It is, yeah. we're in Greenwich so we can quite easily get to Greenwich Park yeah that would be wonderful I love Greenwich Park yeah I think it's beautiful I love any parks really I think for me like I love finding my inspiration in nature yeah and like I said before like finding inspiration from being out and seeing how people function and come together that for me like that's what design is about it's people at the end of the day. I find it simply fascinating how physical space can totally change how we think, feel and behave. Meaning it can pause distractions, it can connect us, it can mean we do our very best work and that's where Stansons steps in.

14:33This show is created by Stansons who design, make and install curtains and acoustics to create the perfect environment for people to flourish and do their very best work you've got a project on we know how it feels reach out and we'll start to talk so Jacinta you have mentioned a couple of times that you love nature and that sort of thing

14:56Jacinta Ashby:so here we are this is Greenwich Park I love it I love it is this your like go-to room space absolutely yeah it's near my house um but it's just so open and so peaceful like it makes my heart so happy yeah yeah do you get inspiration here i do and i think it just allows me a bit of breathing time and just that break away that i need especially when i want to restore my cup or just take some time to think things through it's that weight off my shoulders in a way that allows inspiration or space for inspiration for me. Yeah. Like a bit of zenning. Yeah. Yeah. And are you a sort of person that goes here on your own or with other people?

15:41Jacinta Ashby:A bit of both. I'm not... Nobody can come to my park. No, no, no. Yeah. Like some friends I'll catch up with here and hopefully do some more picnics in the summer. Yeah. But yeah, some days I just want to be by myself in my own bubble, you know? totally how often would you come to a space like this oh i have to be in nature at least once a week otherwise i will go insane wicked like purposeful nature yeah yeah so you actively plan in yeah at least once a week to be somewhere like this yeah like i it's like i'm i've got an addiction and if i don't have it i start to get the shakes i was gonna say what happens if you don't go.

16:22Jacinta Ashby:I can't show up as my most authentic and passionate self if I don't spend time in nature like period. Nice and what do you look for when you're here? Just no thoughts? Do you think things through actively? What are you kind of doing? I think it's a good moment to give myself grace. I think I spend a lot of time putting pressure on myself yeah in like so many different scenarios of my life yeah this is my opportunity to be like nope no pressures whatsoever just exist yeah you know make space for my own peace and like I said before inspiration right so we got this view um it's yeah this is literally Greenwich Park if you've not been before just a massive expense of green tree walking up through those trees it's so calm isn't it and by the time you get to the top you're just like you've left all your worries problems stressors at the gates like it's just it clears the mind how do you capture that and put it in an office as in that feeling yeah that that's a really great question i think for me it's understanding why how how that journey we've just been on has been allowed to happen and what's allowed for that um purposely been allowed for that so natural like elements things like greenery natural light soft textures materials especially if you've got a vast space how do you create enclosures and different elements of pressure and release in the actual interior architecture because it's that journey and I think people really thrive when they're understood yeah there is something isn't there that's just to be said for human connection to nature like kind of all together yeah kind of natural materials it's just it's so zen isn't it it's so zen and I think what makes my heart really happy is coming from Australia like there are so many of different landmarks in my eyesight right now where I'm like pinch me moment like I cannot believe I'm here like you can see St Paul's you can see the gherkin you can see the shard you can see the o2 like for me I think it's also a really grounding moment of eyeballing these things and being able to step back and it also reminds me like we are just specks of dust on a floating rock like if you look at that there are like millions of people within this frame right now and when you think of life like that when you see life like that you take a lot of pressure off of yourself and you allow yourself to just exist and appreciate the world around you such a good such a good thing to say like so you see this you've moved when when did you move over again 2023 what was the thing that you least expected to like find that you did find myself Okay.

19:29You didn't expect to find yourself in the move?

19:32Jacinta Ashby:No, I didn't expect to find the version of me that I've grown into. That's amazing. And I've said this to people before, like, the person that I am now, there's no way I could be this person in Australia. Like, there's so many elements of why not. And I think I'm just continuously proud of myself, and it's really important that people are proud of themselves because, likewise, I'm sure you've been places and been through stuff that you never expected to have to go through and I think being really proud of yourself for going through that and standing here today yeah like I always love that saying a diamond is just a piece of charcoal under extreme pressure for a long period of time I love that we're diamonds guy we're diamonds we're all diamonds yeah we're diamonds we're all diamonds and it just moving whether you see it or not as pressure was pressure and it forms something in you that you can't be formed any other way yeah and I think it's special so yeah this is like almost like a celebratory moment it is isn't it of what's been achieved yeah like I did that you know me I'm such a big believer of people's well-being and being your own main character and giving yourself appreciation for everything you've gone through and I think this just sums it up like yeah it's just beautiful and I think the more you see life like that being a beautiful thing and being a beautiful experience rather than a destination like I think that comes with a lot of peace and likewise when I'm designing workplaces or I'm in general designing places for people to exist anywhere yeah anywhere yeah the most important thing for me as a designer is that people feel something in that space yeah that people feel that they can be themselves be authentic have conversations come together it might be a sense of place it might be some a smell that brings them back to another point in time yeah but what's important is that people feel and I think it's about memories and experiences rather than things yeah necessarily yeah like an Instagram moment's great like you know a logo is great but I think if people can walk away from work each day or once a week at least and be like that thing that happened or that thing that someone said to me in that room or like the sofa or at BW, like those standout memories are going to last with people forever.

21:52Jacinta Ashby:And I think that's a really beautiful takeaway from environments we design. Yeah. Can you design in or how do you design in movement? So we just moved. And I think that's really healthy, like obviously physically healthy, but mentally healthy. So how can we design in more movement without just people trekking across the others? We're going to run. I think, like I said earlier, like it's being intentional about how you design the space. And I think we live in a world as well where convenience, like it's just around us. Deliveroo, Uber Eats, not sponsored. But, you know, like everything is at the touch of our fingertips.

22:30Jacinta Ashby:So I think really making people, not forcing them, encouraging people to get out of their desks and want to go to the breakout. out or want to go to the meeting room on the other side of the office because it has a really beautiful furniture arrangement and beautiful panelling on the walls and acoustics are really designed well like I think encouragement's a good word like encourage people to want to leave their desk and not feel constrained no I do agree and also think like how the space how easy it is to navigate not necessarily just that it's nice but like maybe the signage or the lighting or just even just the flow yeah can maybe pick people up and lead people there which might not have otherwise found themselves there do you know what I mean yeah yeah I wrote an article for BW recently about designing workspaces and the experience for employees and I related it to almost a hotel you know everyone can design right at the end of the day we can all pick something nice colors or relate the brand back to materials or whatever but it's that experience and what sets a Marriott apart from a height at, is the user journey.

23:37Jacinta Ashby:It's about who do they see when they first get to the hotel? How are they greeted? What does it smell like as they're going through the corridors? What is that experience? What are the touch points? What does their key look like? So I think when we can embed those elements into workplace design and how people do experience in user space, like again, I think that's encouraging people to want to show up every day and almost find something special. In that whole experience that you're saying, do you get a lot of outdoor spaces that you get to design? I used to I would say not so much in workplace terraces yes but my previous background was collaborating with landscape architects as well and a lot of the work that I was doing was bringing the outside in which I'm so passionate about like that's why we're in a park yeah yeah like bringing that outside is so important for people's health and well-being and I think where I'm not I guess having opportunity to design outside spaces I'm thinking okay how can I bring that outside in regardless of workplace or restaurant yeah whatever it is people talk about biophilia and they quite quickly think plants and then kind of stop thinking so I think it's so much deeper than that like biophilia in its whole what are other things that you would encourage people to consider other than just plants some of the things I've mentioned already I would say sounds natural light the fluidity of movement there's no white walls in nature like apart from the architecture there are no white walls so it's bringing in these textures and these tactility of the outdoors and bringing that in and that's what biophilic design's about it's about wellness and well-being and nature and it's it's that symbiosis of the two like you've got a real deep love of nature do you find that it's anything to do with your childhood and how you've been like raised absolutely yeah my oma and opa that's grandparents in german and hungarian they live in the mountains in a beautiful place called pakenham upper and like that is where i spent a lot of my childhood and learning about fruits and different flowers different plants and playing under the oak tree like exploring like the berries and the orchard that they had set up so I think my my sense of belonging my sense of place in this world is without a doubt in nature that yeah it's embedded in me almost yeah right from childhood yeah and that was Australia yeah and just purely due to the climate I'm guessing it's more outside living yeah I would say so I mean if you compare it to Dubai a lot of people are inside living right like and interiors are just off the charts there because that's where a lot of people spend their time true whereas in Australia it is more accessible to be outside and yeah I guess we're quite lucky or fortunate that we can pick and choose because we've got air conditioning and the right thermal climates indoors but outdoors like you just you want to be outdoors you want to explore and I think the animals kind of have their own identity in Australia but it's fascinating like you want to go out there and see a snake and be like whoa what's that the whole kind of like adventure like kind of um adrenaline is the word i'm looking for yeah yeah yeah no that's true and so coming over to uk was that a struggle because the climate being different no because i think it's quite similar i think just when you grow up in a place you forget about what is around you like greenwich park this right here this is one of many parks in london right and i think you just have to be intentional about spending your time in nature because london has some of the most incredible green spaces like people are just so quick to judge on the weather and base their soul identity or you know emotion or how they're feeling one day because the weather was gray yeah and also just getting would you still go out in the bad weather yeah yeah i met you this morning and it was pouring with rain and here we are the universe has opened up for us yeah and we wouldn't have had this experience if we had just gone oh we're not meeting up today yeah because the weather is rubbish let's do it again another day yeah don't wait like in life don't wait for anything just get out just get out don't rely on others like just have that internal ambition to be like you know what i'm gonna show up for me today and the worst thing that's happened is you'll get wet but big deal bring an umbrella always come prepared yeah wicked oh thanks so much Jacinta it's been really really great episode to be start off surrounded by people and then finish off surrounded by trees i mean what more that's good you asked for in life and coffee and coffee i think it's been the trifecta and um yeah it's been such a pleasure and sharing my space and outlook on life with you and all you guys watching and listening and yeah thank you so much for having me on it's been wonderful you're very welcome and obviously guys i'm tuning in thanks very much we're always so grateful to our guests amazing insights and also all of our supporters and subscribers and you know who you are always cheering on and sending in the DMs so thank you.

28:39Do the whole follow thing if you're not and the rating thing because the algorithm likes that and with that we will cut off. So thank you Jacinta.

28:47Jacinta Ashby:Thank you so much Guy. Thank you guys.

29:03Thank you.

29:33Thank you.

30:03Thank you.

30:33Thank you.

31:03Thank you.

31:50Jacinta Ashby:I think for me it's understanding why, how that journey we've just been on has been allowed to happen and what's purposely been allowed for that so greenery natural light soft textures materials especially if you've got a vast space how do you create enclosures and different elements of pressure and release in the actual interior architecture because it's that journey and I think people really thrive when they're understood and I think what makes my heart really happy is coming from Australia. There are so many different landmarks in my eyesight right now where I'm like pinch me moment. Like I cannot believe I'm here.

32:30Jacinta Ashby:Like you can see St. Paul's, you can see the gherkin, you can see the shard, you can see the O2. Like for me, I think it's also a really grounding moment. It also reminds me like we are just specks of dust on a floating rock. If you look at that, there are like millions of people within this frame right now. When you think of life like that, when you see life like that, you take a lot of pressure off of yourself and you allow yourself to just exist and appreciate the world around you. The more you see life like that being a beautiful thing and being a beautiful experience rather than a destination.

33:06Jacinta Ashby:Like I think that comes with a lot of peace. And likewise, when I'm designing workplaces or I'm in general designing places for people to exist anywhere, the most important thing for me as a designer is that people feel something in that space. Yeah. That people feel that they can be themselves, be authentic, have conversations, come together. It might be a sense of place, it might be a smell that brings them back to another point in time. Yeah. But what's important is that people feel.

33:49Thank you.

34:19Thank you.

34:49Thank you.

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35:49Thank you.

36:36Jacinta Ashby:It is really beneficial to have an intentional space that is there for people's wellbeing. For me, I love finding my inspiration in nature, finding inspiration from being out and seeing how people function and come together, for me, that's what design is about. It's about people at the end of the day. This is my opportunity to be like, nope, no pressures whatsoever, just exist. Make space for my own peace. If you look at that, there are like millions of people within this frame right now. When you think of life like that, when you see life like that, you take a lot of pressure off of yourself and you allow yourself to just exist and appreciate the world around you.

37:18Thank you.