Episode 158: Ranvir Singh

0:00Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

0:37You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. This is Nick and Jack from The Best One Yet, and we are excited to tell you about Walmart business.

1:23Staying ahead of business trends means moving fast and adapting quickly. Walmart business helps you simplify operations so you can focus on building the next big thing. Find exactly what your organization needs with their ever-expanding business assortment and everyday low prices. Keep your momentum going fast with reliable shipping and fulfillment. Eligible organizations can take advantage of tax-free shopping, both in-store and online, saving you more while getting you everything you need. It's Walmart built for your business. Sign up for a free Walmart business account today at business.walmart.com.

2:00Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello. I think I'm slightly in trouble actually with Richard. Maybe not, but it is Sunday evening at seven o 'clock and this is the second week running when I've been really late with talking to you in time for him to um to the um the podcast edit and he's really kind and lets me do it really late but this is a bit too late and it's father's day so i definitely feel a little bit of a numpty and um richard if you're listening i'm sorry uh it's because we finished the tour on Thursday.

3:12I got up really early on Friday morning to do school stuff. Was so tired, like criminally tired. And then did another early start yesterday with Saturday Kitchen. I know these are all excuses, aren't they? I should definitely have spoken to you earlier. Anyway, never mind all that. Oh God, it's boiling in here. Our house is really stuffy. So I'm walking around. the kids have left things on that they shouldn't um i hope you're good uh the uk tour has finished it finished on thursday night at the royal albert hall biggest gig of my life biggest solo gig of my life pretty cool actually really cool very beautiful and i did an amazing job of actually taking it in and i say that because i really do feel like i can remember the whole gig um little screenshots in my head, little images, I should say, screenshots, sorry, little images of all the people filling the room and moments where I caught people's eyes or I could see people high, high up dancing.

4:17It was just really good fun. My band, my crew did a great job. It was a lovely, lovely tour. So if you were any part of that tour, thank you very much. Europe, I'm coming for you. I'll be there September, October. I've also got a London gig at Coco on the 8th of September, if anyone fancies that i'm going to be doing the whole album um and what else has been going on i've just been getting back into family life uh my 16 year old's nearly finished his gcse's um yeah we're kind of bombing our way through this term everything is fine it's going to feel good when kids finishes gcse's he got his last one tomorrow it's quite tense i didn't really have it with my eldest because of lockdown it kind of was a bit of an unusual shape so i've really experienced the whole exam thing properly this time around but he's handled it well and if you have any person in your household is going through the same I send you love um right this week's guest so I've been very fortunate with this podcast I love every conversation I have but I have to say I do think the chat I have with Ranveer really will always stay in my mind as one of my favorites just because when I started this podcast I really always loved the fact that we have such proper conversations it's such a privilege to you know press record close up the doors and just have a long proper long conversation with someone and I just have so much time and respect for Ranveer and she articulates herself so well and she has handled so much she is a TV news presenter on Good Morning Britain and I've met her so many times over the years and she's also a single parent to her 13 year old son and she was just very open, very candid but very, what's the word, I suppose very clear in her thoughts about how it felt to become a mum, how she felt about her work around that time, clear about narrating all that she'd been through, even though it had clearly been so, so much for so long.

6:32Yeah, it's a lovely conversation, and it was pretty emotional, actually, and I do feel, you know, it's such a privilege to have conversations like that with people. And I just, yeah, it just felt very special to talk about it all. And, yeah, I did cry quite a lot, actually. But it's kind of a nice feeling because it's solidarity. It's being allowed into someone's world for a minute and empathising. And, look, it's familiar tales in some ways, you know, all the sacrifices we all make for our kids and, you know, that sense of pushing forward even when you're feeling, like, so depleted. but I think with Ranveer I just yeah I don't know it just got me it did anyway um I will leave you with our chat uh Richard sorry again for taking so long and I will see you on the other side

7:40hello Ranveer how are you hi I'm really good it's so so nice to be here because we've been talking about this about probably about was it about a year ago we saw each other somewhere well I remember seeing you on set actually Lorraine and it was in the gap and we had a very quick chat sort of in the break leading up to when I'd be chatting and we immediately crammed that gap with lots of chat about the kids and what been happening with things and I was thinking oh there's more there's more to uncover yes but also um I think that those little conversations for me are like my therapy even if it's only in those tiny bits I really need all of those little moments just exchanging the shorthand of and the reality you know sometimes you just need a bit of the reality don't you that's what I love about doing what I do which is basically what you're doing now the interviewing yeah which is weird for me um but I always love the pre-chat the little because you just find a little bit out and you're like ah because you know we've had like Anne-Marie you know the pop stars you know she came in um a couple of years ago and um I said you're all right I said you see you seem a bit tired this is before we went on air she was like I'm really tired at the moment I'm you know I'm struggling a bit here and there was just a feeling in the air and that wasn't why she was on she was on to promote something that she's on about but she's a very sort of down to earth uh it's got an open book in lots of ways I thought and I just sort of gently broached I said and we came on air and I just went you know it's it's a bit tiring isn't it you're sort of a bit tired this morning and then we had a completely different conversation in which she told me about Ed Sheeran talking to her and giving her some help this is you know around COVID time mentally and all this and it made it into the independent and all and it started off all these conversations about mental health and what it was and it just came from a completely natural organic side chat yeah which was nothing to do which were you know that we were there to really talk about but it became a really real conversation and I think that's obviously resonates with what you enjoy the most definitely yeah 100 % and I think also thinking about your job like you've got though that quick turnaround of people and they come into the studio there's lots happening but you've got to try and create that little space that makes you it's just the two of us and we're just having a chat and I was thinking that's quite maternal of you actually as well to pick up on that with her just in that tiny moment yeah well Well, you notice sometimes if people, well, there is a sort of performance element, isn't there?

10:09For all of us. Yeah. You know, not just performing on stage as you do. That is obviously the uber end of performance, isn't it? But even when you're doing something quite natural, like doing the interviews like I do on television, on live television, there is still an element of we're here to do a job. So, you know, somebody's here to promote a book or they're here to talk about their show or whatever it might be or an issue. But then there is the real person who comes in just before, you know, as the as the as the PA is counting down to the moment you're going live, you feel something in the air.

10:46And you and I think it sometimes it's not the right thing to do because maybe somebody's too sensitive or. Yeah, you can see if that's. Yes, exactly. Safe area. Yeah, but I think I've always enjoyed getting under the skin of people, and that's my elixir. Yes. Yeah. And like you said, I often find that it's therapeutic for me. I find that really relatable because I'm a mess. You know, sometimes, a lot of the time, you know, you're not feeling imposter syndrome. You have all sorts of things going on in your head, you know. It also brings that humanity of what people are going through. Yes. I think that discovering what unites us is always very good for everything, isn't it?

11:32Yeah. And I always find it really, I find it's like a real responsibility to not portray success as a one dimensional, singular, platformed achievement. Like you're up that, you know, you've achieved it because I think that that's really detrimental, particularly in this day and age to people watching because I think success can feel so ephemeral so like can I ever get there will it be me will I ever be that good can I you know and it seems so but it's not because we've all feel like when we're reaching for something aren't we all of us yeah and um I'm always very careful I feel to not represent you know a guest's success as something that is this perfect parcel because I think that's quite alienating.

12:25It's aspirational, but it's also, also you've got to hear about, you know, when they were 18 living in a bedsit and thought they'd never make it because that is the reality for most people before they make it, you know, or whatever. So yeah, I'm always very mindful of that actually. Well, I suppose as well, I wonder if that's partly as we get older, the goals we've set ourself you're sort of always in the process of the doing and the thinking of the next bit and the next bit and now as I can see you know my 50s sort of in the my vision a bit on the horizon I've become much better at just actually enjoying the moment and not always thinking but where does this lead it's quite a hard habit to break yeah because I think if you've always been pushing pushing yeah you need you're used to the little drive but I think just actually enjoying stuff And I wonder with you, because as I've been, you know, learning more and more about your life, there's been so much drive, so much.

13:28And I mean, I was thinking even when you were younger, was there anyone in your family that was going into any of the areas that you ended up working in? My God, no. Yeah, that's in itself is extraordinary, isn't it? No, I mean, I don't think my family really understood at all what on earth this thing was that I was doing. because all it meant to my mum was that I would be coming home sometimes at 10 o 'clock at night, you know, from local radio, because the shifts were such, you started at two in the afternoon, you finished at 10. She's like, what do you mean? You know, I'm a young Indian girl, you know, culturally, that was completely not okay.

14:09You know, it was a terribly difficult thing for my mum to get her head round and she didn't really she she struggled with it she thought it it felt wrong well well why don't you just be a teacher then you can be home at five like then you have the holidays like that's what do that you shouldn't be out I don't want you why are you there you know and it was quite so it took quite a lot of um I suppose

14:37a bit of rebelliousness from me to do it I think you know I was careful what to say there but there was a bit of rebelliousness even going to university I when I was 18 um just said I was like I'm just gonna not just I'm gonna go and work in a bank because my older sister who's nine years older than me had done that and I was like that's what I'm gonna do I'm not gonna go I completely cut myself off from it I was like I'm just gonna 18 do my did my levels I'm just gonna go and work in a bank that's what I'm gonna do and I knew that my mum at that time it was during that time when all universities were opening up, you know, and it was this sort of every, it was open to everybody.

15:13It wasn't, you know, you could get a grant, you could go. And my mum's whole thing, which was quite ironic, was, I don't want people to think we can't afford for you to go to university, so you're going to have to go. She was like, what will the neighbours say? What will the community say? Because we were a single parent family. So she was desperate to keep up face you know she wanted she didn't want people to think that she needed me to earn at 18 which kind of she did we did yeah so that's why I ended up going to university but one of the things that she wanted was for me to come home every to live at home and go to university so I sort of dug my heels in and I was like no you know if I'm gonna go I need to go and so my compromise was that I went to Lancaster University I lived in Preston so it was 20 minutes up the road I went to university every Monday morning and I came home every Friday and my friends would be like that's insane like you're missing out on the weekends and you know you're missing out but I was like you have no idea what it took for me to get even this like to be you know 20 minutes up the road to be able to live away from home Monday to Friday um is a massive achievement for me because my sisters didn't go to university you're the youngest I'm the youngest yeah by quite a long way you know so generationally like enormous things have changed you know you have children of all different ages and it's different isn't it you it's difficult to treat all your children the same when there are big age gaps because society moves and thinking changes and so I think there was some envy you know from both of my sisters I got to go to university because it was a symbol of enormous freedom but also I suppose by going home you're being very respectful as well to your mum and to the family dynamic of what it meant that you were doing it yeah but I'll tell you what it was Sophie I mean the funniest thing was I don't often say this but actually you know I we went to the Sikh temple every Sunday and so I you know honest I shouldn't say this it's actually really funny I am old enough to say this now you know when you still feel like a kid who's gonna like confess to something you shouldn't confess but I'm like 47 so I need to get over this now but I would like I would like sit in the temple on a on a Sunday and I'd just literally be sitting there cross-legged on the water game dear God please forgive me for all the naughty things I did during the week and um you know for the boys and I'm really sorry and all of this.

17:49And, you know, I'd just sit there and I'd feel incredibly guilty because I was, you know, I was doing things that my mum would never have wanted me to do and all, you know, the partying and all this. Knowing full well that when I went back on Monday, I'd just do it all again. You know, like I said, it was a bit like being Catholic. You know, I'd go and confess, you know, internally every Sunday. And I'd be like, I'm such a bad Sikh. You know, I did that for three years. You know, it never changed. so it's just quite funny um so for me it was um it was it was an enormously um positive and brave compromise you know um and it started the route of um well in many ways I knew in my head I was like at 18 I was like if if I go to university and this is my fear if I go to university I will be out of the box and I will never be able to get back in the box again and you have to be in the box to sustain family life if you're a young Indian woman you have to stay in the box and that was my experience that was experience of both of my sisters that's experience of lots of Indian women of my generation you have to stay in the box um but I and I knew myself well enough to know that if I if I get out of the box it's going to be almost impossible for me to get back in and so actually my career came out of just being outside of the box I was like I can't be I don't want to be a lawyer I thought about it you know don't want to be a lawyer don't want to be a teacher don't want to be an accountant I'm rubbish with numbers like so as you say once you I'm just checking I understand that right that feeling so once you'd begun that path and And you're no longer in that world that your mum would be able to articulate, that she would share with her neighbours, with the people that she thought would...

19:42The safe space. The safe space. As soon as it went outside those parameters, that's it. I knew, yeah. It's kind of giving me chills because that's a big thing to be thinking, and I have not experienced that. I didn't have to think like that. I totally resonate with the little thing of rebellion. That feels me too. But I've been very closeted that all my life experiences pretty much have been able to slightly get them to be understood a bit by my family members. And I haven't had it where they say, sorry, it doesn't compute. Why are you getting home so late again? Yes. Yeah. That's a big deal. Yeah.

20:19Yeah. It sort of gives me the chills now actually thinking about it. Because I don't think I've realized possibly, you know, how self-aware I was at 18. But I think that when you are raised in that way, I come from a very religious family. My mum's incredibly religious. And religion and culture are very, very tightly intertwined. So they become the same thing. So in a sense that if you step out in one way, you know, you're rejecting all of it. You know, it's a wholesale, I get that, thing. You can't reject one part of the culture without rejecting the religion, without rejecting your family. like it all comes as one big package see what I mean yeah and so so it is a really big and obviously I wasn't rejecting them and I wasn't rejecting my culture but it was this thing of I just I knew that there was a part of me that would be released and that's why you'd go to the temple and say sorry about it and then do it again on Monday and you know what if anybody's listening to this who lives up north or who knows that part of the world I was always in the Carlton Club every Tuesday it was R &B night I was out every Thursday night you know I'd be the one going is anyone around is anyone because I was just like I've got these two windows yeah I can't wait till Saturday because I'm not here you know I get it I mean yeah I would have been going to those clubs yeah of course um so if we fast forward a little bit if you've got this fire in your belly and you're on this course and there's this sort of little whip in your head pushing you towards the next bit and you're working your way through regional and how does it did you always think I would like to also be a mum oh yes I it's a good question um because we're talking you know in my mind I've gone straight back to being um at uni you know so in my head then I'm thinking, oh gosh, I feel like I'm there.

22:16Not at uni, not until I had my career path, in the very early days, sort of my laser beam focused. So once I'd sort of corrected the laser beam, sort of I knew. Because the reason I know that is because as soon as you're out of university, there's a pressure to get married uh although was obviously I'm talking you know from my generation I think it's very different now there certainly was for me and so then there's this whole host of um um you know mums talking to other mums and trying to find out if there are any available boys and what they're you know photographs and details it's almost like this all through your 20s oh yeah yeah yeah through my early 20s you know it's just this thing and you know and my sisters would get involved and it'd be like you know how about this person how about this person he's really clever he's look at this picture and I just remember wanting to reject it all I was just like I just couldn't find it in myself I was like I'm I'm don't yeah I don't want this and I that again was very rebellious really it was seen as quite a sort of um it's not the thing to do yeah you know you've got to show willing you know you've got to do it you know So I really, so then, of course, at that stage, being a mom in your early 20s wasn't a thing.

23:39But certainly it came rushing in, you know, probably about 30, I think. I'm trying to think when. but when it came in it was so strong um that there was a very very real moment when I sort of gave myself six months or something something really weird I remember just standing in my flat in Manchester that I had at the time and I just thought well this isn't going to happen is it so right well I'm going to freeze my eggs or I'm going to do this I'm going to do it on my own like I really was sure because there was somebody at work who had done it you know the idea of surrogacy or or freezing your eggs or doing or getting a sperm down all of that sort of stuff had crossed my mind and I was like so that's how I knew that this wasn't an option an optional extra in my life were the circumstances right it was a thing that became totally integral to how I saw my future, actually.

24:47It's quite scary, really. Well, it's just a reason I was thinking about it as well because I think if you're talking about all these, you know, how completely driven you are, but also how you felt like you'd kind of shaken off a lot of expectations, it's quite a big thing to then bring motherhood into it when your ambition has become such a reliable force in you, giving you the next step. You're so, it's reliable, isn't it? It always, that's exactly right. But I, even now, like, my friend said to me, when I was pregnant, she said to me, Ranvier, she said, it's like waking up every morning and somebody's left a surprise bar of Cadbury's dairy milk for you.

25:34And you can't believe your luck. she's like that's about a baby about having a baby okay she was like she was like that's what it shouldn't be so incredulous yeah she was just like it's like waking up and finding somebody's left you this like there are definitely days where the chocolate would be preferable maybe not five or six bars of chocolate but just the one you know some days just some days but i've always remembered that and i always just thought that's a really that's a really beautiful way to sort of feel about it yeah and an excitement and an excitement and I think that because I wasn't always sure that it happened for me even now 12 years later I do look at him and I just go I can't I can't believe my luck I can't believe it happened there he is yeah there he is and like as he knows and he knows so much about me because you know we've been on our own for a just the two of us from the very beginning, you know, he says, what would have happened if you hadn't had a baby?

26:33Like he asks me and I say, well, and I know this for a fact, I would have moved abroad. I would have, I would have moved abroad. I would have lived somewhere else. I've gone to the Washington Bureau. I would have, you know, not in a purely career sense, but I just think I would have found it. And I say this with some trepidation, I would have found it incredibly difficult I think to be around friends and family yeah uh and I feel that very keenly for for friends who have had difficulty and continue to have difficulty and I've got some um and I'm always very keen to um I'm very very proud of my friends and those women in the public domain now who are really really vocal about the life how it is so fulfilling without children and And I'm really a massive fan of those women who speak so powerfully about the fact that, you know, motherhood is not the only way to fulfill your life.

27:39Because I always see there's a parallel version of me who would have been her. And I want her to survive and I want her to feel great about being alive. And I want her to feel the version of me that sliding doors, you know, sliding doors, having a baby. It could have happened. It might not have happened. I totally understand. So I feel like a huge sort of weird, I'm a weird sort of huge advocate of people being really clear to women in this day and age that actually there are many, many, many ways you can change culture in your workplace. You can actually do more sometimes if you don't have children to effect change in the world because you've got time and you can.

28:18There's also, I've seen the most maternal friends of mine don't have their own children. Isn't that amazing? And so I think, you know, if you're, there's other ways you can bring some of the best thing qualities. Absolutely. Of mothering without being a biological mother. Absolutely. I'm sensitive to that too. So I, like you, I've got lots of girlfriends where they, now that, you know, I mean, I'm nearly 46 and it's like, okay, well, that's a little likelihood that. Yes. but they there's so many ways that they can be involved in young people's lives or changing things or legacy or relationships all these things all this is fulfilling yes so I'm careful with that because even though with the podcast it is a bit of a prerequisite that you've you've brought someone up or you're bringing someone up but I don't want to make it seem like it's a club that if you're not part of it that there's something you're being excluded from but in some I do I'm aware I've got one girlfriend actually she's now in her 50s and she listens to the podcast and I think for some women it might be a curiosity or some people a curiosity what what are the conversations that I might have been having if that had been my life oh you know because it's it was all there to explore this is Nick and Jack from the best one yet and we are excited to tell you about Walmart business staying ahead of business trends means moving fast and adapting quickly Walmart business helps you simplify operations so you can focus on building the next big thing mind exactly what your organization needs with their ever-expanding business assortment and everyday low prices.

29:49Keep your momentum going fast with reliable shipping and fulfillment. Eligible organizations can take advantage of tax-free shopping, both in-store and online, saving you more while getting you everything you need. It's Walmart built for your business. Sign up for a free Walmart business account today at business.walmart.com. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most.

30:22Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability.

30:59And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Isn't it? It is. And actually, you know, it's really interesting because when I talk to my girlfriends about it, I say, you know, the thing that got me through, obviously, I was a single mom. So that's a completely different aspect of raising a baby and stuff like that.

31:47It's sort of very difficult, obviously, at times. but I would say to people and I say it to myself really you know is that you have to almost crave it because when things are hard you have to remember why you wanted this and I just say like I've got friends who who would say you know I would like children I would have liked children but I never met someone and I can say categorically that I was in the other camp that like regardless of whether I'd met someone or not I was going to have kids right so that to me I'm aware that my drive was really really like fundamental and really strong that this was something I wanted to experience in my life yeah but I'm aware that actually I think that you have to crave it because when it's hard you know I think it's and I say this as the child of somebody of a mum who wasn't always enormously maternal that it can be hard to be on the receiving end of somebody who maybe had other ambitions and maybe having a child wasn't didn't fulfill those ambitions so I think to be on the receiving end as a child of those feelings can be really difficult and I would never ever wish that upon someone to have that you know feeling with their own parents so I wouldn't want to be that you see what I'm saying here it's not just about you it's about the child's experience of being mothered god that's I suppose that's the ultimate in that saying about you know to really love someone you have to love yourself isn't it it's about your resolve and yeah what you're looking for and what you think your children are going to bring you that's gonna yeah missing piece you know yes and I think that what I what I'm really I feel like progress truly is in this area that we're talking about, about the fact that having kids isn't just the thing you do.

33:43You know, it was always just that you get married, you have kids. It's the next logical, and I'm using quotation marks, it's the next logical step. And I'm so relieved, and I hope it remains the way that it doesn't remain, quote, the logical step. because I think that that hems some women and some fathers into having children when they didn't necessarily feel like it was something that they craved it was something that you just did um and I see that a lot and I really make that makes me sad yeah because it makes me sad you need to learn you have to be willing to really put in the the framework of how to be the best parent you can be yeah and if you're just doing it as a this thing I do then you're probably going to pass down some generational absolutely absolutely right absolutely right there yeah yeah and I was thinking as well I mean you mentioned being a single mother from the beginning which is a really profound way to enter motherhood but also if you're in a relationship when I got together Richard we'd only been going out for six weeks when we found out having a baby which was a bit of a okay uh you know what's your surname yeah exactly i hadn't even met his parents um yeah and i said to my mom oh i'm pregnant and she said it might not be the right man it might not be the right time but it's the right baby oh i feel like maybe that advice that could have been shared with you too and then if you're thinking you have this drive i want motherhood i would like that to be part of what i'm doing it's always going to be seismic to become to have you know to have a baby but it's probably even more seismic if it's part of the an end chapter of a relationship that you'll know is closing and then it's like oh my word but here we start this whole new journey with this person this baby yeah who if it'd been if we'd moved the calendar 12 months in either direction it's like yeah completely might not have been a baby at all might not have been a baby at all it's quite that's quite a big deal isn't it and I want to talk to you about what was happening when you had, because I could, I listened to you talking to Kate Thornton and I could not believe that you had, you'd taken on this job.

35:58I mean, wow. Sorry. So you've taken on a job. Your relationship is ending. So there's all that stuff that comes with that. You're two months from having a baby and then you have the baby. And then by the time he's five weeks, you're at Westfield Shopping Centre. No, earlier, three weeks. Two weeks. Two weeks. Yeah. Shopping for wardrobe. Yeah. oh my goodness with my body like jelly and your mind I mean yeah it was the last thing you're thinking about is clothes right yeah but this is the thing I suppose is that um as as time well my as I realized as it went on is that my first love was my this job this career this thing that had happened upon this brilliant thing of being able to broadcast and do news and I it sort of it lit my life up you know when I sort of found it it really was like a light bulb moment for me you know and funny enough I was in the Sikh temple you know back in the when I was in my second year at uni and I was doing English and philosophy and this girl said you know what you're gonna do you know she's an older girl I really respected her I thought she was really cool and she's like what you gonna do after uni I said oh I don't know she's like oh my friend works for the BBC and I literally can and I it's like almost like like I went but it would always been this thing that other people do it's in the little box it's in the radio it's not something that I can do and all of a sudden it was like oh my god I can do that so for me that that excitement feeling was always there and so when it came to having you know to being pregnant and then sort of essentially being headhunted by ITV when I was about four months pregnant

37:40um it was like these are the two things that I could only have ever dreamt of happening they just happen to be happening at the same time so I get a job on national television to do live news um my first ever national job and I'm having my first baby it turns out my only baby um and i just thought logic i thought logically i'm not thinking very logically well everybody i talked about breakfast telly says oh my god it's so knackering oh my god you're gonna be so tired you know and everyone talked to about being a new mom oh my god it's so knackering oh my god it's so tiring you know you'll be a zombie for two years okay well then how tired can i be how how tired can one person be you know i just we just combine it all you know what i mean and the thing with it is you've got to be peak tired you've got to be peak tired but also the thing is as as you may recognize is that you think well what if this opportunity never comes along you know when you're freelance when you're doing sort of jobs like we do it's not like that there's a formal application process or that you go for the next job when it turns up and you you know you see it on your internal newsletter and you go it's not like that you're either spotted and you're you're you're you're taken on for something or you're not you can't it's not something you can actually I think that's probably fair and those things do just you know and it just yeah so I was just like these two things might only ever happen this time around 2012 it might this might be the year that these things are only ever come to me I'm having the baby this job I I just thought I can't I can't not do it but also you know I had a baby to raise on my own you know I had to I had to nail it I had to nail it because there's no safety net safe no safety net I don't come from any money in fact you know I've supported my mum you know so it's not there is nothing if I don't do well nothing that's pretty I mean I suppose you can look back now and see quite how vulnerable that position is but at the time I suppose you were just in the doing and you're and and how when you look back on it now what's what do you remember of that feeling what do you remember of that time well interestingly um I remember sitting on the driveway when I would get back with the I'd come I'd come back from work um let's say 10 o 'clock in the morning you know the show finished at nine half nine or whatever you do the meeting you get home but I get home for half 10 or something and I would sort of say to the driver of the taxi, I'd just say, can you just give me two minutes before I get out of the car?

40:24Can you just give me two minutes? And I'd just sort of close my eyes and I'd just be like... Because I would have been up since three and it's now half ten in the morning and I'd be like... Right. And I'd just, you know, in this house, you know, the door's just there, in this house is this little baby waiting for its mum you know tiny baby at that point you know toddler maybe you know years and I'd go right and I just and I'd just shake it off whatever this thing is and I thank you thanks very much door shut in pick my baby and that's it and then you're on the go um and I did that up until and obviously he's grown up but I did that essential that process time and time again five days a week for 10 years oh my goodness yeah I mean obviously he went to school and then things but you know things do change but essentially in those early couple of years before he went to you know a nursery and things like that um I would think aren't I lucky That's the only way that I could do this is to say to myself every single day, how lucky am I?

41:41How lucky am I? How lucky am I? I have a job I've always wanted and I have the baby I've always wanted. Aren't I lucky? Aren't I lucky? Aren't I lucky? And that is the only mantra that could, I'm going to cry. it's the only thing that could get me through the tiredness and sometimes the loneliness it's I'm so I'm so lucky and I still think that I am so lucky I am but I'm it's funny because I was just listening as I said to you I was just listening to the wonderful rugby player um Abby Ward yeah and um in your intro to her you said her mindset her positivity is something that's gonna you know know blow your socks off you know just wait until you hear it and that is the thing that hooked me I've got to listen to this because it really is about how you frame yeah framing yeah how you frame thoughts but I can tell you honestly Sophie there were flashes of moments when as a news person you cover some really dreadful stories and I'd covered so many dreadful stories really sad stories But I can honestly tell you, you know, there were flashes of moments where I thought, imagine being 19 and lonely in a tower block with a crying baby that you cannot stop crying.

43:06Not that I'm just saying that I, in a moment of deep, dark empathy at 1am with a teething baby, I've got a great job. I earned good money my mum had moved in with me partly because I couldn't leave her getting old up north so it was more to look after her than the other way around but she was there I had my sister not so far away I had a support network and I had a job I loved and I'd been you know I'd had an education like all the things that were I had all the framework really to give me resilience I think if you don't have that and I think anybody listening to this will know what that that flicker of I can't do it you know that feeling is like and it gave me a massive insight into how lonely it could be if you don't have support if you don't have something else in your life um so I have always felt I am really lucky you know I'm really lucky yeah that's really moving now he's really got me I think um uh I can totally appreciate why that mantra was so essential and yes but it's also such an insight into all that you were doing that you that you were giving yourself a mantra yeah you know I think that's why I find it it's like it's like the secret side of things isn't it um the private side the thing that you were doing for yourself just to walk back in through that door yes there is that bit where you're like okay yeah here we go yeah yeah um and yeah and I suppose I'm also thinking about how life can be funny because you do all the or the work that's I mean it's immense I think to move away from the expectations of your family and the path that's laid and you've obviously done a lot of work to keep this keep this you know the ties with your sisters and your mum and to never be never disrespect the choices but also So to listen to all the things that mattered to you, that's to keep the connections.

45:27Yeah. I mean, look, it's messy. You know, it has been messy. It's fantastic now. But, you know, I also think that and I think people resonate with this, too, is that, you know, when you when you step away from things that are expected of you, it dislodges everybody in that system, in that ecosystem. It makes everybody feel nervous and makes everybody want to shut that part of you down. Because, and I've learned this, is that because, you know, it, I don't like the word trigger, but it certainly, it triggers things in those people about their own unrequited passions, the things that they have pushed down in order to fit in, in order to not upset, in order to, you know, keep that condition.

46:20love from a parent from a partner from a you know whatever it might be and I think that and I think that that's why people making different choices uh makes people feel very angry sometimes it makes people feel very annoyed with you it threatens their sense of what what was right what's wrong yeah um but um and it takes yeah but I just don't know how else I would have been me I don't I don't know how else to be yeah the truth be told and believe you me um there is so much that I don't talk about um and I probably I and one of the things is you know I always say too much you know in terms of you know this is sounds silly to you but in terms of PR in terms of you know I've got somebody who looks after some press for me occasionally you know poor George the girl who does it she's got a head in her hands here she's like why would you say so much but there's a sort of truth serum in me but there's so much I can't say so believe you me my god I've tried to get back in the box for the sake of my family but it leads to enormous rupture for me internally it never leads to a good thing for them either so I think if there's any lesson to learn and it's really difficult and it is you know is that going your own way is really the only way because in the end you'll end up resenting yourself or resenting others.

48:03And I've seen too many people in my life who have become bitter and difficult to be around. And as I've grown older, you know, you think, oh, what's wrong with you? God, why are you so difficult? And now I have enormous empathy for those people because I feel like I would have been you. I know why you are you because you never, ever, ever had the chance or the bravery or the courage or the system or the society. Whatever it is, timing is everything. You never had the chance to tap into who you really are. And that is tragic because you make everybody's life a misery around you and you have to reconcile yourself with your own misery.

48:48Yeah, and actually, especially in your 40s, I feel like that's the time, isn't it? Right. That is the time because it's funny, isn't it? you know and blame you know the blame game yes and the years go by but when it comes to family dynamics you go you are still that kid it's crazy the years i mean sometimes there are things about my family that will do that and and i'll say to richard i'm a grown-up why am i still bothered so bothered by these ancient yes yes i've had i'm sure i've had this conversation once or twice before and I do think it's interesting to talk about bitterness and resentment because actually I think this is the time when you've got to be so careful well if there's big in myself really mindful of just being okay with all of the messy bits 100 % and forgiving yes you don't keep carrying those bits and you're not angry or so it's just not it's just not a good way to carry out the next few decades, I don't think.

49:51No, it's not. Let it go. Yeah. But it's tricky. You know what, years and years ago, Richard and I, we did a DJ gig, I promise this is going somewhere, over near St Paul's, and they put us in a hotel, and every once in a while, I think one of those glamorous things, and I'm a Londoner, but a night in a hotel in London, I'm like, that's peak glamour. I love it. I don't know, it's only happened a handful of times, but I really like it. Yeah, because they always make you go home, presumably. Yeah, exactly. So if I'm like, oh, breakfast in a hotel, and then you see London in a slightly different way.

50:18Like a tourist. So we walked into St Paul's Cathedral and they happened to be, there was a vicar giving a sermon. And he told this story, and this time I must have been in my early 30s. He was telling a story about the masks people wear and how people, when they get to their 40s, that's when the mask slips and you have to really deal with who you are. And I was like, wow, that's really profound. And the older I've got, the more truth I see. And that stayed with you for years. It really stayed with me. and so I think this is the bit where whatever you've sustained whatever you've put in place that's maybe a little dysfunctional you have to actually you have to face it go through all those boxes in your head too yeah you have to countenance it for sure and I definitely think you know um part of that um is mothering actually because then you're facing parts of yourself in your child you know and the interactions there uh and you you know and it is that old adage you hear your mom in yourself as you're telling them off when the way you're doing it and you go why am I doing that I didn't like you know that's not how I want to be so you know but also some really good things you know you hear yourself doing things that you think well that's what that's the way I was and I still believe that so I think that's okay but I definitely think that and that you know and a shout out to anybody who is um dealing with their own hormones in their mid-40s and with a preteen or you know my son's gonna be 13 this year that's a whole I mean it's challenging oh my god I adore my boy but it's also hard because they still got the baby and I can still see the little one in there but to them that he's yeah exactly the next chapter started but yeah and also in yourself you know like until you get all your pills and potions and gels in the right order you know then you're like oh this is horrible you know you can't you don't know yourself anymore you know for periods of time it's true it's a cruel way it works It's such a cruel thing.

52:13Come on. It is. It is such a, you know. But actually, it's quite funny. I was just telling my son then, I mean, we're so open with each other. Because we sort of have to be. And we're kind of like each other's pocket. We're in each other's pocket, really. And last year, he quietly went on the internet and he made me two badges. And one says, I'm hormonal, tread carefully. And the other one I call it, he says, hi, my name is Ranvir. I'm hormonal, leave me alone or something. And then he did, they arrived in the post. And he went, I've got you something. I went, what? He went, just open those. He went, don't shout at me.

52:51I went, I won't. And I opened them. And I just thought it was really lovely. So now literally, I literally put them on my, you know, and you always know because it's like my oversized fleece hoodie. You know, the one that's like, you know, one size fits all. And I just put that on and I mope around the house. And he's like, are you all right, mum? Oh, he sounds adorable. He is adorable because he kind of has. He's thoughtful. Well, because I've had to just go. He's good sense of humour too. He is funny. So, yeah. And actually, I posted it on Instagram and loads of my friends were like, oh my God, can you make me one?

53:20I can do with one. You know, just like a little, like, I'm just feeling a bit tender today. You know, like, it's not you, it's me. That's so sweet. But also, I love the fact that even though I can see, you know, wow, it's a lot to be a single mother. but it sounds like it's also like the bedrock of your relationship yeah and actually it's really interesting because over the years you know in newsrooms here and there whenever I was you know traveling abroad and all of that and I'd spend my time in between work chatting to crew chatting to the director about their lives I'd be like and you know you'd find out oh my god you were your mum was single like oh right wow like what did she do because you've turned out great like what is it what is it what is it you know like always searching for like am I missing something what do I need to do and you know one of my directors at ITN said to me you've got to get him a dog I said don't say that no don't say that he's like you've got to get him a dog if he's an only child you've got to get him a dog anyway you don't have to have you done that I did for his eighth birthday and now obviously you know I walk the dog you know but he does it so but you know I just go do you want me to take your birthday present back you know I've got these lovely cockapoo he's like four and a half but um so I did you know I literally did I bought him a dog for his I thought he's got to have something and I'm the more I read about it apparently that is one of the things that you know it's really good for them to have something that's their own you know that they bond with as an only child so yeah um yes I've always been trying to figure it out from people I admire around me you know how did your mum do what did they do what did they do it's made you always curious and if they talk about that that's the thing yeah yeah absolutely absolutely um did it make you see your mum a bit differently too that she was because you were so your dad died when you were only nine yeah I think that so we haven't spoken much about that time no no I it's a big deal to lose a parent you're so yeah I think that I think that now uh now I understand her more and I've largely well no I'd say I've totally reconciled with it because she prayed a lot and that was her solace but it also was quite isolating because prayer is a very solitary thing and prayer is done from a prayer book and it's done for hours on end and it's done daily and so you know my mum would be upstairs in a in the prayer room praying a lot uh so I'd be on my own a lot in the house downstairs and her other solace as I realize um was the garden and I and that was quite hard because you you know you're on your own a lot and I was never included you know and she cooked so she would cook in the kitchen so lots of things that she did were on her own for herself but you know I think that if you come from a religious family or you have any of that sort of ilk in your family I think prayer does give enormous comfort to the person doing it and I think that they think that they are doing the best they can for you in that moment and I so I'm very aware that now whilst I was lonely and alone and sort of craving her you know craving her to be want to be with me I now realize that for her that was all she had left if you see what I mean to give me food and prayer food and prayer food and prayer um and so whilst it doesn't sort of change the past it certainly makes me understand that that was her way of mothering me that was her way of mothering me um

57:37and so and I heard someone once say that you can't this was a big thing for me as you say about bitterness I was determined not to be bitter at 40 because I there was something in my mind about I think I'd seen older women in my family I thought 40 seemed so old you know when I was like 25 I was thinking I'm never gonna be bitter and you know spitting tacks at everybody when I'm 40 you know I said it to someone over the phone I won't tell you who I said it to someone over the phone when she was 40 I was like I'm not I'm not gonna be like you I'm not gonna be like you I was a bit like her when I got to 40 I was still quite angry you know I still had quite a lot to deal with.

58:20But I was, I thought, I've got to really get underneath the skin of this, because otherwise, I'm just going to be repeating, repeating, repeating, and I can't do that. So yeah, I realized that we do the best we can. We do the best we can. And it's not always what the child wants at the time, but it is the best that we can do. But I think you have to learn today, sorry, you have to have some self reflection as you get older. And you have to be able to face yourself for your own failings as a mother and as and maybe as a child you have to also reconcile that if that person can't self-reflect you have to be able to let go anyway yeah you can't wait for them to say sorry you can't because they might never say sorry exactly you've got to find your own way to deal with that yeah yeah yeah um but and I hope that my son does that you know I'm hoping that as he grows older he will find a way to reconcile my parenting because it isn't perfect well no but the fact you've got like even that little thing of the badges shows how he's seeing you that's actually really lovely I mean my 12 year old said to me the other day are you angry and I went no and he went oh just you look angry all the time yeah you get that i was like this is just my face now right this is just where i found myself isn't it you're so oh it's so funny yeah it's funny but it's a little harsh it's a little harsh it's also a little harsh when you actually feel all right on that day exactly i thought i looked quite peaceful i thought it was being really nice just wandering around i was just my neutral really yeah exactly um isn't that funny oh bless him I think we've had, this conversation has been really lovely.

1:00:12I knew we'd have a good conversation. So for, I set you free, or embark on hour two. I was just thinking it'd be nice to end maybe, firstly, it feels a little bit like all the conversation we've been having have also led you to being a bit more open about that early, those chapters. massively yeah and and just I think it's at the time it can sometimes feel like you don't want to let a chink in your armor with work you know don't don't think I can't do the job because I've also had a teething baby at one and at home don't think I can't be a present mother because I've been doing the job and now you can say oh my god I was doing all of that for a decade yeah totally right it's also partly for me is that I've been learning um with some help you know to release some of the shame um which is a whole other podcast but um to not I didn't realize how much I was labelling all of that period of time as something embarrassing and shameful and instead of brave and beautiful and powerful and, yeah, what an, you know...

1:01:41Such an achievement. An achievement. I totally didn't see it as an achievement, you know, until quite recently, really, until I've been sort of seeking some help to sort of, you know as you say I slowed down a bit with work in the last couple of years you know sort of still there doing my job but I just sort of decided I didn't want to travel away as much and things like that and what happened was that in those empty spaces um well it's just empty you know there's just all this space and I started to go you know what am I doing you know it's hard to let go it's hard to yeah because what if I'm not striving what am I doing yeah I didn't know myself without striving and without a sense of urgency to correct to do everything I didn't know who I was anymore without that and actually what's happened is that I've had to be patient with that space and be allow myself to just like be bored and be a bit more self-reflective and have a breath and all those things I don't really want to do and cry a bit and look back a bit and then now actually you know it's taken a while but I've you know managed to I think as you say just look at the next few years and think well you know I have to find a new way of dealing with my life because it's dealt I've dealt with it in a certain way but I think purely in fight or flight purely in survival or catastrophe you know in the two extremes you know it's one or the other it's one or the other it's one or the other you know always and now I'm just going okay there's a way to accept some things aren't perfect there's a way to accept that I can be good without having to be knocking out the park every day you know there's a way to just be somewhere that's comfortable but that's not normal you know being comfortable isn't normal for me so I'm just like having to learn to be comfortable yeah and also myself and able to be a little bit more 360 with the people with everything you're dealing with yeah yeah and actually I suppose um as I'm learning not compartmentalize myself too much and just be like oh I'm a whole person like I don't have to be exactly one or the other yeah I don't have to be a success or a failure yeah you know if I'm not successful therefore I'm a failure you know like those binary choices aren't actually that healthy in the end yeah it's funny isn't it you think you're doing something for yourself when you're putting all that fire under your feet to keep dancing but actually end up just people just looking on thinking are you okay with that yes I'm over here not doing that yeah you don't have to live like that yes exactly exactly yeah and it always comes up doesn't it in ways it does but for anyone listening who's in the taking two minutes before they put the key in the door kind of bit um you know how would you feel now looking back that you're in the bit where you're in the after of that intensity that's really nice to put it that way um if i was back there looking forward you mean or someone's listening and just yeah okay sort of have a little glimpse into the bit where that because at the time i don't think you can think you just feel like oh this is it this is it because you haven't got the resource to project or fantasize about you know where it all leads because you're too busy thinking that that implies i've got through it all and i didn't lose the job and I didn't crap any crap as a mum you're just in the I have you're just like holding on getting it done yeah rollercoasters holding on holding on I think that um

1:05:12what I'd say is you're doing everything you need to do right now and one day you will look at yourself in the mirror and you will realise how unbelievably strong

1:05:43you were. Can we finish so I can give you a hug? Yeah. oh thank you oh you are so strong

1:06:05so lovely to listen back to that I told you it was an emotional one I mean that we both finished crying just you know asking Ranveer any advice out there for anyone who needs to take a couple of minutes before they put the key in the door. I think it's also just, you know, look, there's many ways to become a mum. There's many ways to become a family. There's many ways to raise a child. But I think sometimes you just look back and think, wow, I really, I don't mean me personally, Ranveer really articulated so much of that feeling when you've just, I don't know, you're just running on empty so much, pushing forward your work and filled with so much love for your child and you're just kind of all about that for days months years so yeah I really appreciate her her clarity of thought on on all those difficult days it was a real pleasure and I hope someone out there might have benefited from hearing some of those words because I think we've all had days like that haven't we and we're all dealing with different things and you don't always know what's going on with folk and you know um but ultimately we do know we're lucky people if we get to have love in our lives with our with our kids and with our work too hey anyway i've been sat here in a very hot room listening back and also with my little puss cats wandering around my two kittens uh somewhere out there my kids are running around it's it's kind of summer evening so it's staying like till really late but we've had a lovely day I went to see my sister and her husband Gabe and my new little niece Alba she's only two and a half weeks old she's such a puppet I love being an auntie so much already it's gorgeous and seeing my kids holding their cousin was very very sweet and yeah I'm feeling good I'm so satisfied with how well the tour went so thank you again and also I'm excited I've been having a few more conversations about the album and Perimena Pop and I honestly do credit this podcast with giving me a little bit of fuel in my tank really when it comes to this chapter of my life and I don't know thinking about things in a slightly different way and helping me find a map so much appreciated meanwhile we have another couple of episodes left of this series and I'm already starting planning the next one but have a lovely week sorry again to Richard for being so late congratulations to Ella May for her becoming a mum her baby is now in the world a week and so Ella May again won't have her artwork on this podcast but I'm thinking of her and her family and yeah so thank you to Richard on Father's Day thank you to Claire Jones for gorgeous production on the podcast Ella May thinking of you and of course biggest thank you to Ranva of course being a lovely guest and to you, headline for your beautiful ears.

1:09:11Thank you for lending them and I'll see you soon.

1:09:37Thank you.