Episode 168: Fiona Bell

0:04Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexta and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hola. I say hola because I'm in Mexico, but not for too much longer. we are waiting by the gate about to fly to Toronto and it has been such a lovely trip we've been here oh I think it's only been about 48 hours I know less than that we got here late on Friday night it's now Sunday lunchtime and yesterday we had like a 20-hour day basically starting in the morning going out for a good coffee a jack and tacos for lunch with the rest of the band And we went for a wander and saw the Day of the Dead parade of the aftermath of that.

1:14So people dressed up and things to sale and things that people have been carrying around on the parade. And then went to the venue where we were on stage at 1 a.m. for a big Halloween party. So sort of Halloween, Day of the Dead crossover party in a disused film lot. So a couple of thousand people really dressed up. It was great. I have not had much sleep. It was really good. And the band looked awesome because they had face paint and stuff. So it's really cool. And now, yeah, at the airport, waiting to fly to Toronto. Got two more shows to do before we fly home. So Toronto on Monday, New York on Tuesday.

1:54But everything's been going really well. I love the gig in Vancouver, San Francisco, Los Angeles. It's been really, really, really good. and we have three episodes left of the podcast. So this week, oh, it's a lovely woman called Fiona. Now, Fiona and I met, Fiona Bell, that's her full name. Fiona and I met back in, I would say 2004, 2005, when I was living with Richard and our newborn baby son, Sunny. We were living in Labrack Grove and I used to take Sunny out in the buggy all the time and wander around. And you know what it's like, those early days with a small baby, when you're just wandering about, you know, you'll have, like, something tiny for your day, like, I'm going to meet a friend for coffee, or I'm just going to walk around the block and get some milk.

2:40And then I would walk around the little shops that sold children's clothes, because I actually didn't buy anything for Sonny before he was born, so his wardrobe was quite scanty when he arrived. So I would go and pick up bits and bobs. And one of the places I love to go to is a little independent shop called Their Nibs, that at the time was situated inside a bit of Portobello called Portobello Green. Lots of really cute lot shops. Anyway, the founder of their nibs is Fiona. And Fiona is still making beautiful things. This time she has focused it to, well, I said this time, over the years, she has focused it to nightwear.

3:15Really beautiful pajamas. I love pajamas. I don't say this lightly. They are really gorgeous. Beautiful prints. Great cut. You can get them a sort of satiny finish on nice cottons. I've got some of each and I love them very much. And I think you can tell they're imbued with, you know, warmth and thoughtfulness, nice attention to detail. So Fiona, the founder, we crossed paths again recently and we started talking about her work with Coram, the charity Coram, which she has a very close relationship with because Coram helped Maggie and her partner adopt their daughter, Maggie, who is now 11. And she also has a 25-year-old son called Finn, so a little bit older than my firstborn.

3:58And I was, as soon as I started talking to my guest, I said, would you be comfortable coming on the podcast and talking about the adoption process? Because it's something that we haven't really covered, actually, in too many specifics. And I know it's something a lot of people go through, not least in my own family. I have an adopted sister, Dulce. She's now 28. So I have memories of that from when I was a teenager. but I suppose I haven't thought about it from the adult perspective in this way in this conversation for the podcast so yeah, really really perfect sorry about all the tannoy I'm going to hop off now so you can hear Fiona's lovely voice, not mine but it's an emotional, moving, beautiful story that begins and ends with a cosy nightwear which is kind of fitting for a wholesome ending to family life, you know That's what she's created with her home life and with her gorgeous business.

4:54So over to you, Fiona, and see you on the other side from Mexico City Airport.

5:07It's so nice to see you. And tell me about the world of their nibs, because for me, whenever I think of your brand, it takes me right back to Labrote Grove, sort of mid-naughties when I had my first little boy and I used to go in my buggy around the place all the time and go into a shop. Yes, I do remember that. So, yeah, so the brand evolved really from a bit of adversity. So I was left as a single mum when my now 25-year-old was two. His dad left unexpectedly and I had a big job in fashion I was a senior buyer at Laura Ashley at the time which meant lots of traveling lots of traveling to Hong Kong and it was just impractical trying to do both things be a mum and at that time there wasn't the flexibility of working like there is now in the fashion business you're either in it or you're out of it so I suppose I come from a family of entrepreneurs I sort of remember as a kid always wanting to think of business ideas in fact when I was about seven I walked up and down the road that we lived in at the time picking flowers in people's gardens and knocking on the door and trying to sell them to them their own flowers which which which is obviously a bit dishonest but it was the start of a seed in my head of like yeah I want to do something on my own um so I came up with a name because I used to call Finn his nibs which is the northern expression where you grew up um in Yorkshire so yeah so the yeah the kind of tones are still there after many years of being in London you'd ever lose them um so yeah so his nibs came about and originally it was a children's brand and obviously you remember that safety from your days when Sonny was little so we opened a shop in Kensington Park Road which was sort of fairly local to me I'm northwest London and the idea and the ethos of the brand is still very much embedded in where we are now so it's quite eclectic it was much more vintage inspired then in fact I had an area at the back of the shop where we had children's vintage clothes which are sourced from all over the place a bit from relic um who are local um very well established vintage shop so lots of the shapes were based on vintage lots of the prints were based on vintage ideas and it became sort of part of kensington park road for 15 years that must have been quite well i mean unpick that a little bit though because you said you started with adversity but going back so when you had Finn first of all you would that was when you work at Laura Ashley yeah and you must have been pretty young mum right did you always want to be a mother were you expecting to become mother at that time I did always want to be a mum and I he was you know it was the most joyful thing having Finn um and he still is a you know a joyful young man at 25 is is an amazing young man so yeah I always wanted to be a mum but I would caveat that by saying I also love my career and I was never going to be a mum there would be a stay-at-home mum I think I would have found that quite tricky which back then when Finn was that age I think I would have found that quite hard to say out loud actually but I went to back to work very quickly because at that time I didn't have a choice it was I needed financially to go back to work so so having the mixture which I did eventually when I opened the business of having a bit more flexibility being a mum but still winning my own business and having that excitement it was a perfect combination for me it felt like I'd sort of won the lottery with that because, you know, I could be there for him when he was still at nursery.

9:20In fact, he was in nursery in Portobello Road, so the whole thing practically worked really well. So, yes, it was out of adversity, the sort of setting up the business in the first place, but it became really joyful for him and me, and he's got lovely memories of those times. It was, you know, it was exciting for him as well. and just in terms of setting up starting a new business um because i've spoken to quite a few entrepreneurs um for the podcast and i'm always fascinated at that bit where you take the leap because you're leaving you know law Ashley's such a recognized um brand and starting up on your own and now sitting here these decades later you can see that the proof is in the pudding but at that time was there like an overlap were you starting to sort of did you have a plan b or was it just like a kind of I'm just going to go for break and I will make this work I am a bit of a gambler by sort of my personality and I just thought I'm going to roll the dice um so I did leave Laura Ashley first it took me a wee while to set the whole thing up because I had to find the shop the concept was brewing for quite a while before so I knew what I wanted the look and feel of the business to be um and yeah with the help of my dad and my mum who were amazing in the beginning just absolutely amazing in fact my dad always said to me and this is something that stuck with me to this day and it's so true for any entrepreneur um in terms of your the way your business is working is turnover is vanity and profit is sanity and if you remember that adage you will always make sure that your bottom line is looking healthy and the rest of it is sort of irrelevant turnover is important what does turnover mean in business so the actual turnover of the the money that's coming into the business so the money that's coming into the business is one thing then all your expenses like staff obviously had the shop expense then all those kind of expenses rates to the council which are all part of the expense line so it's just sort of you know actually yeah exactly because musicians quite often don't learn this lesson as well everything's fine i just got paid yeah yeah it's what tax yeah it is honestly it's one of those things that you can get carried away it's like oh i'm making all this money it's like but i'm not making all that money because I've got to pay all that money out and that's what I'm left with and that's your net profit and that's you that's your staple to make sure that going forward you've got a credible business yeah um and you're always quite good at being I mean obviously I'm projecting my own emotions here a little bit but I can get a bit squeamish sometimes about money because it's such an emotional thing yeah particularly when you're responsible for a small person yeah yeah um I mean I suppose that must have really galvanized your your ambition a bit because you think I this is there's a lot resting on this so exactly right and and I think in my head once I sort of got around how this was going to work practically and I knew I could make it work and I knew I wanted to give Finn and I choices for the future that was such an important part for me that it would potentially if I put everything into this it would give us some choices which was really important because I would have been quite an absent mum if I'd stayed in the fashion world because it's so demanding and you certainly couldn't work part-time then there was no way you were you were in it or you were you were out of it yeah so it was important that I was there to thin because he was you know a little boy two and a half and he did really need his mom he had an absent father quite suddenly yeah so he really needed me around and my family weren't in London they were up north that said they were amazing came backwards and forwards and they were really supportive but not many of my friends at that time also had kids I was one of the first ones which was also a bit weird because I was suddenly in a whole new friendship group of people that I didn't really know very well yeah you know they didn't have history with me yeah um so and that's a learning curve when you're a new mum because you've suddenly got to go oh I've now got to go on with this whole new group of people yeah that don't that don't really know me yeah and initially all you've got in common is you happen to have you've got the same age yeah exactly and I can really resonate with that but I think also I think sometimes you look back on a chapter of your life and there's there's a sort of um I don't know if it's bravery exactly but it's like a sort of blissful naivety about things because now you're sitting here and your family has doubled in size since then but at that time it's a big deal I think to be in a city that's not where you've got your roots um to find yourself a single parent and to be making a start with business like that um do you remember if you had a sort of plan b or a kind of if it hasn't worked by then or was it just a kind of one foot in front of the other i i think actually it was one foot in front of the other i just sort of what was going sort of down this road of like this just has to work which sounds a bit naive because it could have very easily not worked and I don't think it sounds naive.

14:53I just think it's like a thing. We've all got ways of framing things to help us keep focused. Yeah, and I think it's really important. And there was times when I felt really vulnerable just around where Finn was being brought up. You know, where I live in Kensal Green now is super gentrified. It's fabulous. Have you been in the same area the whole time? Yes. And he went to school literally next to where we live. my daughter is just about to leave that same school so but it wasn't quite the area it is now and I did have worries around that and I had this fixation about the duck pond in in barns and I thought I just want to move to barns because it feels and I couldn't have afforded to live in barns but I used to go there and sort of walk around that duck pond with him and think this is really safe I really want to live here because nothing can touch him here but as it's turned out he's he's thrived where we live he still lives at home he's got the same friends he's had since he was four years old and it's a lovely community so it's actually worked out pretty well actually yeah and I think also you must feel like now again with the benefit of sitting here 20 over 20 years on quite stealthy really because a lot of businesses might be more sort of shouty but actually to to keep doing what you're doing and to grow a business like you have is a massive achievement yeah well we've had some ups and downs massive ups and downs on the road and our house has been on the line and you know all sorts of stuff that I could write um I could write about that probably can't talk about it but it's just around all the kind of the the journey of trying to make something work and what you need to do in any business is try lots of different business models because there's no one size fits all you know we've tried lots of things like selling to smaller shops which is tricky to manage and you've just got to find that um that thing that fits your business because I made a big mistake in 2008 and opened a second shopping kensel rise just as the crash happened so that was tricky I remember that time and then and the other thing that happened with the original shop down in in Portobello Road is they brought in the congestion charge so all the people used to come in stop coming in because they had to pay the congestion charge every time they came into the area so that was quite a challenging time and once you sign a shop lease you are in the lease for however many years that is so you do have to you know you do have to make mistakes in order to grow but we've got a nice steady business in terms of we've got some great retailers in the UK like we're you know we're a proud stockist in John Lewis which is an amazing partner for us because it's got that lovely connotation of a gold standard yeah totally um so that's amazing um and obviously the website the transactional website I've got a really great team around me now that really help we gel and work together really well and that in itself is you know a challenge you've got to sort of it's always the buck stops with you and the momentum and the energy has got to keep going from you yeah there's nobody else well actually there is my sort of second in command Sia it's just fabulous she's just become a mum eight months ago to a little boy Monroe um so she's sort of back part-time um but you've you've just got to have all these layers in place to make the whole thing work it's not entirely dissimilar in my business yes in terms of like the momentum starts with me yeah and if i said tomorrow i'm not gonna do anything else people might be like oh but then then they'd move on to something else you know okay fair enough yeah well exactly i mean if we start designing pajamas they're like well i can go buy my shards from somewhere else so so you know it's coming up with the ideas it's coming up with like you all the other stuff you've got to do to promote everything that you do we've got a similar thing to do and um digital marketing has become such kind of black art i would call it you know in terms of getting your product out there um instagram slightly different because that's more organic marketing and that's you know that's sort or easier to control but the paid side with all small brands like myself is a bit of a minefield but if you've got a gorgeous product you've got to get in front of people yeah so they know you've got a gorgeous product like if you've got a gorgeous song you've got to get in front of people yeah so now you've got a gorgeous song yeah there's a lot of banging on saucepans has to happen yeah constantly yeah exactly and I mentioned that your family has doubled since those early days and I think before we started recording you said you met your your husband Charlie came into you and Finn's life when he was about four about four so the first of really significant shift in your family setup and it had been Finn and I for sort of two years on our own and actually I'd become quite sort of I isolated myself a little bit in that time just because well a I was starting the business and b I was sort of conscious of him his stability with everything and yeah um so so it was a nice time but obviously being a single parent is really challenging and having a new business and a little one it was two and a half three when I sort of started it was also very challenging because that's he was a really good baby Finn in terms of I could get him to sleep and he did all the right things that babies seem to do and then he hit three and became quite quite a challenging little man um he's yeah so so there was all of that and there was no three basically yeah just that three yeah and then waking up at five o 'clock in the morning constantly which became my kind of routine of so yeah so I met Charlie my now husband and he adopted Finn um a few years down the line but they sort of gelled straight away thankfully and in fact it's that awkward stage of when you first meet someone and you've been going out for a wee while and you think is he my boyfriend now or it's a bit awkward I don't know whether he is or not so we were walking to the park and Finn was sort of in the middle of his holding our hands he went so are you now boyfriend and girlfriend with me because and it broke the ice it was like oh I suppose we are really so that was that was quite nice he he introduced that concept to Charlie and I which was lovely so yeah so the years have gone on they are really close in fact Finn is now a cameraman like his dad which is wonderful so he's being brought up around you know filming and sort of all that side of the business so I'm really glad he's fallen into it and he's you know he's enjoying it as well which is great well also he'll know he won't even remember when his stepdad into the picture really he won't it's it's yeah does he just call him dad he calls him charlie he calls him so he did he he wanted to call him charlie actually but but what's really weird is just like physically they are really similar because they're both incredibly tall oh yeah so his birth dad wasn't so tall Charlie's about six foot four and so is Finn yeah clever genetics yeah it's really known how to bend yeah it's so yeah exactly it's so strange and lots of people are shocked when they find out they're not sort of related by blood but honestly there's so many mixed families now and I think families come in all shapes and sizes and we completed our family in 2004 18 sorry with our daughter maggie who's now 11 so she was adopted through a charity called quorum

23:06well why don't we first talk about quorum because i find quorum such a fascinating charity um i think it must be one of the oldest charities that i'm familiar with it's the oldest charity in the uk oh wow yeah I didn't actually know that yeah it's founded by Thomas Corham in the 1750s and what was really amazing about this at the time when he was raising money for the founding hospital Handel did concerts and he was I can never say that word I'm triple on the pist raise money I'm gonna say um for for the for for Thomas Corham and his founding hospital and it's still on the same site in Corham Fields in Bloomsbury, in Brunswick Square in central London and the same site was all those years ago and there's an amazing museum next to the Corham offices, the founding museum and what mums used to do then, if they couldn't look after their children, they'd take them to the founding hospital with a token, like a button, they'd break in half and they'd keep one and give the other one to the child if they were ever able to get them back able to afford to feed them and so yeah it's a really emotive experience going around the foundling so they have these buttons they do they actually have all these little tokens yeah it's and all that love when you've got nothing but there's just something that says i'm thinking of you exactly yeah i know it's really that's an extraordinary emotional but you know as you know now modern social services is slightly different and lots of these children are faced with adversity often of the same kind actually um and it's just heartbreaking because there's still sort of 100 i think 90 000 kids in this country that are still in care they just need their forever home yeah and there's just a lack of adopters because the process is is quite long-winded quite rightly so yes I don't think that can be ever criticized because you you have to be vetted they can't get it wrong no they absolutely can't so it's an invasive process but you know we went through it with the eyes on the prize we had a a journey with fertility ourselves and unfortunately never managed to get pregnant so that's why we came to adoption but we came to adoption through maggie's godfather um our dear friend ben who has got a wonderful um daughter bella who was adopted also through quorum many years before so he guided us through the process and that was lovely having that personal connection yeah massive difference yeah it really did almost mentoring you absolutely it was amazing so we weren't going through it cold in terms of we had some advice away from the advice of the social workers so um so it is you know like i said the process is um quite long-winded but it really enjoyable as well it was you find a lot about yourself doing these kind of processes and then you finally get to the end of the process and you go in front of a panel and get approved to adopt which is one of the most scariest things ever because at that stage you kind of know you're there but you don't know the final outcome it was really nerve-wracking wow so you just have one minute sat in the lobby waiting to be called in yeah pretty much in front a big file well there's all these all that like you're around a table of you know doctors and all sorts of people that have to make the final decision on this board um then you're asked to leave the room and but at that stage like i said you the social worker knows she's got you to the point that you will get through so we we got through and that was all fine and then everything goes a bit quiet because you're like oh so now i'm adopted this child you know you have to then wait for the child that you're matched with that's what yeah there's no question no there's no matching so it's it's on a database and the social workers match you with because quorum isn't a local authority you match with children anywhere in the country so it could be anywhere in the country which is better in lots of ways because it spreads the net a bit wider as opposed to um so i think it was a couple of months went by a long time yeah no it's because it's not you know it just happens to be when that child is is right for you so that was a weird time because it was a bit in limbo yeah and you're thinking somewhere out there yeah you're already here they exist yeah they they are there somewhere you're chills yeah no it's it's it's a weird it's very weird um and then we have actually got matched with our daughter which was amazing and that process then starts all over again because we met her social worker that came to our house and she had to meet us and make sure that she thought we were the right family um as well so that's another process that's that's quite long and then you have to go to another panel to make sure that you're matched, you know, that the match, they agree with the match in the end.

28:43Wow. So things can still potentially pivot. It could. So your heart's on the line for an extraordinarily long time. Because you're already so invested in that. You know, we were invested in that little girl. So I cannot. So when my stepmom and dad adopted my sister, So the adoption process in terms of that sort of, I don't know, for a first vetting period, it's about two years. Yeah. Interviews and paperwork. That was the same with us. Same. Yeah. It can be less and it can be a lot more, but it's not normally much more than that. I think it's about two years. but but the the most surreal bit was when you are when all of that's done you go through what's called introductions which I don't know whether you may have remembered that so we you go through the introductions which has to be in the town they're from um so we virtually kind of camped um out in this city for two weeks and went backwards and forwards to see her in her foster home but the most surreal moment is the moment that you knock on the door knowing you're going to meet your daughter I was going to say what's that yeah what's that emotion like it's so strange and we were so nervous there was this you know this door and behind it was our little girl and that's the first time you meet her there's no because lots of people found that really you know our friends found that really surreal it's just like so that's the first time you met her it's like we're not going to meet her and then we go oh well she's not quite right so you know children can't go through that you have to meet them for the first time in this way and all adopters will relate to this yeah that is the most surreal moment ever so we knocked on this door and and there she was yeah I mean I suppose I don't find it quite as look whenever you meet your small person and however you find yourself getting to parenthood yeah there's always a moment where you kind of meet this individual yeah and all in a way the I don't think there's any other version of it in some ways because all those preconceived notions of what your child will be like that you you know if you if you're a kid who's dreaming of like when I'm when I'm a parent or as you're getting older and thinking yeah no maybe now's the time right or even if you're carrying your baby you've got all this expectation and suddenly they're there and you're like oh pop all those other little thought bubbles just pop and suddenly it's like it was only ever going to be you yeah so i can relate on that level but i suppose what is extraordinary is the how profound it is to meet someone that is formed in that way and it be in such a visceral literal physical sense a doorbell yeah a door opening little footsteps and all the doctors obviously they have the same experience and then over those two weeks we got to know her by gradual meetings but it was so interesting in the first few days we took her into a park where there was one of the the little merry-go-rounds and so she was she was only just four at the time and she got on on a little horse going the merry-go-round and my husband and she didn't want us to go on and he was stood at the side and we videoed her and he kept saying to me she wants you to go on with you she's upset she's upset and I was getting really worried that oh she's she's on her own and she was going around and a little face was like this down sort of looking down in the dumps and she was winding us up she was actually and she went around and she started giggling because she could see so she's got she's she's quite a sparky little character yeah and and you kind of I saw that straight I thought yeah you're you're a sparky one so her character was forming in those two weeks obviously we were getting to know a little formed four-year-old as well which um which is challenging there's no easy way to say yeah oh it was all you know unicorns and rainbows because it certainly wasn't no and I guess you're second guessing everything as well everything making micro expression every moment very much because you've got to show this little one who's experienced things that a lot of grown-ups would find difficult to go through not least transients change for most childhoods big change is a huge moment and we don't know when we're going to first experience that experience of change so for a little one that you know they've already had to see now this is your bedroom and now this is your bedroom yeah and you have to show consistency um and and try and form boundaries and parents within also showing that you're going to show up for them and everything's going to be okay it's incredibly massive navigation incredibly difficult but you do she came from an amazing foster family and this woman is still a dear friend of ours to this day she's a warm fabulous person and she gave maggie a really good start in life which we're eternally grateful for actually and lots of little routines like she had to have certain things by the side of her bed like she had a little fairy um a little fairy glass ornament that she always had by the side of her bed always a glass of water so when she first came into her new bedroom which we spent ages decorating and it looked gorgeous and you know everything that she wanted in the room was there she wanted a ginger cat not a live ginger cat ginger cat's little toy um there were certain things that she wanted in her room that she'd said or when i have my new bedroom can i have a furry rug a ginger cat toy so everything was in place but we we put her to bed on the first night and she had the sense to turn to a bedside table and she counted all the things that were normally there it's so yeah it's really moving I'm thinking as well I mean my youngest is six I'm picturing him you know a couple of years back if he was embarking on this journey and obviously there's things that he a four-year-old would comprehend and then there's big things that we would see that he doesn't see and I think that's why it's so moving as well because you've got their innocence interwoven with such a life-changing thing and also you know you're holding on to the fact that she's been through a lovely foster experience that she's come into a loving home that she has the two of you her amazing big brother there's this whole cast of people waiting to greet her and support her but she in amongst it all has got to discover this yeah and she still take as long as she needs she still is you know she's 11 but yeah and that's challenging for the family because she was still so she mourned her foster mum for a long time because of course she did that was her stability and you know over the time you you just start to break the barriers down with a lot of help from post-adoption support from the core yeah you're not just thrown into it that there's definitely a lot of post-adoption support and that's absolutely invaluable and all the courses we've been able to access which we still look at now you know as she's coming into all these different stages of life we've got to make sure that the support is there for that um but you know you you you have moments that you remember I remember one particular really difficult weekend um and where everybody's at the end of the tethers and I just crawled on the floor and went into the fetal position because I was just at the end of my tether and it broke down the first barrier with her and I because she came over and gave me a hug which I wasn't doing it for that effect I was really absolutely on my knees so so and and actually one of the things that lots of children that come into care find hard when they're in their forever home is um is kind of adapting to a new family and having those connections because they feel if they have that connection, it might get taken away from them again.

37:44So they're obviously very wary of that. But with Maggie, as time has gone on, she's got the connections with us for sure. And she says the most wonderful things, you know, sometimes, obviously, like all children, she's not an angel all the time, but those moments where she says those things are so heartfelt. um they they really are heartfelt and you know all those years back I never thought we'd be we'd have such a close connection with her so it's it's worth the perseverance and it's worth all the help you can get if you're thinking about becoming an adopter it's it's it's an amazing thing to do it's an amazing thing to do yeah and and also I think to go into something with such um it's sort of quite a sober route isn't it to parenthood because you're thinking every step of the way you are being asked point blank how how will your life fit this how will you deal with that if this comes up what will happen yeah it's not it's not an easy route at all no um it's not an easy route at all because you know that there is lots of things with children that well I suppose like you know birth children as well but obviously with these kids they've come from a background that's that's potentially going to have damaged them sort of um and you don't know how that's going to show itself in years to come you just it's but you know our attitude is access as much support as you can listen to her the most amazing thing um that that and I can't profess to have done this but my husband does it religiously every night with maggie he's away at the moment and he's ringing her if he can fit it in with his schedule of work ring her every night um and it's questions what are your questions for today and more comes out in those 10 minutes than probably a lot of therapy would if i'm honest what are your questions for today what are the questions have anything on her mind yeah it could be anything oh it could be nothing yeah it could be something like oh you know so and so did that at school today or it could be a really really deep thing yeah that's really important to her so she knows in that you know that time when she's going to bed she can use that to ask any questions that she wants and I wish I'd done that with Finn actually because it's just so valuable it's so valuable and she she's Charlie's away just for a few days and she's she's really missed it but she's been no she she knows she's been able to access it you know he rang her last night to say I've got some free time any questions and actually she didn't have any because she was so tired because it was so hot in London yesterday she didn't know what to do when you're installing air conditioning yeah it was she was absolutely shattered so but it's lovely to yeah it's a lovely moment for her and the dad to have that it's a judgment-free communication as well isn't it yes what's been on your mind yeah and how was it for you um navigating your motherhood with the two of them because obviously there's another child in this equation too there yeah so he must have been a teenager at this point he was 17 18 yeah 17 um so that is a strange dynamic as you know as well it's a sort of balancing of of those different ages and he was absolutely desperate for a sibling so and he adores Maggie they've got a lovely special thing isn't it yeah he's yeah they've got a lovely relationship so I think the the sort of on the kind of side of when I'm trying to discipline Maggie and saying things right if you don't do that there'll be no sweets for at least the next two days and finn will say to her she used to say that to me she'll never carry it out so on that side yeah that side is tricky yeah and and i keep you know you know well you're not really meant to say that finn um so there's there's times that has been challenging because sometimes when she's not quite self regulating herself he's found that really hard and what the social workers also said is because you know you and finn have got this really close bond if this little person comes into your family and it's it's clearly affecting your mum mentally sometimes with the doctors it's physically finn would have found that really hard and sometimes i think he did so because he was older and he was you know he could see yeah it didn't he could see why she was doing it but he wasn't quite equipped enough to understand totally why she was doing these things yeah but they've yeah they've got they've got a lovely relationship and in fact when he turned 18 he said he started talking about wanting a tattoo and I was like well I don't really know if I want you to have a tattoo you're 18 it's up to you and then he told me what he wanted his tattoo to be and it was the day she moved in with us on his wrist so yeah I was like yep where's it I'll pay for that where's the tattooing so that that was lovely yeah so that's although he nearly got the date wrong his then girlfriend actually well as they were yeah he nearly got the year wrong oh no so that would have been a shame um but what a thoughtful thing yeah so he's he's he's a lovely um thoughtful young young man he's thinning I think it's really enriched him having Maggie in his life and it's funny lots of people at the time because the other thing about being an adopter is when you arrive with this little person in your community of which ours is quite a tight-knit one people couldn't work out at first who she was because she suddenly arrived and that's you know the social workers also said to us just say this is our adopted daughter maggie you know don't hide behind it that's exactly what she is it's and that is an odd concept and lots of people used to say to us oh isn't she lucky isn't she lucky and i used to want to say i think i think we're the lucky ones but people don't know how to react as well it's a strange concept for them people that known this for a long time um and the intention behind that is absolutely Because they're saying she's really come to a lovely, loving environment.

44:29But she's hearing it and thinking. Yes. So I used to have to sort of slightly talk over them if people said that. But she's fitted into our community incredibly well. And she's, yeah, she's absolutely thriving. Yeah. And I mean, it's just an incredible thing as well of what family can be. Yes. You know, but you sort of know when you found it. it's like it's really beautiful it's beautiful and you know things you know finn because of what happened in his early life had this abandonment um issue which hasn't manifested itself particularly but maggie's got that so so they do have weirdly in different ways similar issues that they've had to overcome or well I was thinking that you've had to be incredibly consistent um and show up every day for them but are you also careful to give yourself space because it can be hard holding onto the reins all the time yeah look that is parenthood isn't it yeah uh once you're in it that's it but um but particularly if you've had times when you're on your own or if you're navigating a path that is slightly different to maybe your friends experiences sometimes that can feel quite lonely I'd imagine yeah very isolating and actually work has been a good backdrop for me in terms of losing myself in it I really I'm so grateful for that and I really love what I do still still love what I do after 20 odd two years I think or longer now I can't even think now it's been a long time um so I really enjoy that and I do try and look after myself practically with yoga and all that kind of good stuff with you know that that that's really important that's a really important part of any parenthood journey just to make sure that you're um you know you're in a good state in sort of mentally and physically as much as you can be yeah and I guess thinking you but from my perspective there's um there's a lovely sense I'm getting from you of someone who really knows themselves because you by starting out you know your business as you did and curating as you have and it being you know you and your son and then expanding your family you've actually got something that's completely like personal to you and when you are the master of your destiny in that regard you kind of can keep a preservation of like it sort of stops you from um i don't know comparison because you're kind of doing things the way that work for you and i think i think that's something that in the long run it really stands stands in good stead if you've got that in your soul actually i mean it is lovely we're a very family run business my son fin does all of the videos for the shoots my niece tabitha is is an amazing makeup artist in fact if she could see my makeup now she'd be stressed out because I can't put makeup on saved my life but she she's a makeup artist um my husband Charlie's also a cameraman so it's really lovely a lot of creative a lot of creative and yeah so that that works and it does feel quite you know I feel incredibly lucky that we're able to do that and involve all these sort of family members as well it's it's a massive blessing for me is that and and also Maggie can see those dynamics and she's that gives her another sense of family within the business yeah but she's you know she's models for us quite a lot of the time because she's she enjoys that so so I think that's been that's been another um sort of security blanket for her as well yeah and she's really she's really proud of the business is Maggie she's really proud of it which is which is lovely I mean she does get annoyed when I'm on emails and sometimes not quite present with her so I'm conscious that I have a cut off time if I if I can at night that's quite hard sometimes isn't it it's really hard because the phone represents your little office yeah it does so and as she's getting older she's she's starting to make comments about that and I am quite conscious of coming into secondary school you know that said I do keep saying to her well you know we do need to sort of live and put food on the table so it's it's a balance of both yeah and you're modeling a lot of you know being getting on with things and doing the work exactly um and we should also give a shout out to the fundraising that then it's done for quorum because you've had a lot of your nightwear that's also fundraising and am I right it's for a specific sort of mindfulness for parents course so so we donate to quorum for this particular course which Charlie and I didn't actually go on but I wished it'd been around when we were going through our post-adoption training because it's you are navigating all these incredible obstacles and a mindfulness course just helps new adopters so it's great fundraising first of all it's even better donating to a charity when it's a meaningful thing at the end of it and yeah I'm really proud to be you know part of Coram still it was such a big part of our lives for so many years and I I take Maggie back there quite a lot there's a um they do a yearly picnic for for kids yeah who go back year after year that have been adopted through I love that because then she'll always have yeah yeah place she can associate yes and the community she's part of yeah part of that as well she really i think she's getting older she wants to disassociate herself a little bit because she wants to be known as maggie not that little girl who's adopted but um she'll come back to that and if she doesn't it's it's fine yeah and also she might meet someone who has got a similar story and then it becomes like oh yeah because sometimes if you're the only you know you don't want to be the one the only one it's such a desire to fit in particularly when you get into double figures yeah you're all about that's been quite apparent as she came into double figures it was she didn't she she just want doesn't want to talk about it and that's fine that's also fine so yeah we've we've got this lovely expression for mags and and she still she still likes being called this and I've called her it since she was very little so we call her our warrior because she is one yeah but so are you guys as well and you've you've really had to you know completely give yourself over to it's quite a profound thing I mean it's profound becoming a parent and in any which way it is but I think when you've made such a conscious decision to to do this and engage in it and because of the nature of quorum it leaves you porous to all these other stories yeah so you're not just thinking about your family you're thinking about all these kids and all these families in a way that's very much so it's never part of the peripheral vision before it was never in your psyche there were just as many children but you're not thinking about it yeah in the same way that is that is very true so it changes you in every way forever You're much more aware of it and much more aware of the challenges that these social workers have.

52:10I mean, it's an absolute minefield. But I think Quorum are so important because they are trying to do this work within adoption, but also all this post-adoption work, which requires a huge amount of funding. I mean, it's purely a charity. yeah they don't have it's they they base everything that they um run on charitable donations so um which is which is why you know i'm a very small part of it but i'm still extremely proud that we can give back to something that's given us so much as a family yeah um and if there's someone listening who's thinking about embarking on this is there something that you think would have been helpful to know at the beginning that you learned on your way um I think think about this well I suppose you had your your friend the godfather yes who helped you a little bit with mentoring in terms of what to expect but I'd imagine I'm trying to think how I would feel if I was going through a similar process because on the one hand there'd be part of me that would almost find it quite reassuring that this whole panel had decided it's okay you are able to do this yeah but I think um there's always moments when you find yourself responsible for kids and you think am i any good at this can i do this only you do doubt yourself yeah i think i would have those days yeah i'm sure i'd be in the fetal position and yeah i mean that i have been already yeah that again that that that fetal position was quite a profound moment of i suppose actually that was quite a profound moment of like oh my goodness but then some chinks of light start to come through and it's you know being I suppose being an adoptive parent you've got to be selfless because you've got to accept you might not get very much back um but it you know if you work at that you definitely do I think that's a brilliant bit of advice actually because I think that's something to cling on to and if you if you go into it with that in your head um and it might be a bit of a corny question but can you remember after ringing on the doorbell to meet your daughter the first moment you thought this has all been worth it so i think when she when she she it was about the time of Halloween actually and she waddled into the little sort of playroom back room of where she was living um with a little box um a little sort of like Halloween thing of sweets and just offered it to us and opened up her open up her arms and said mummy and daddy straight away which was nothing that we were expecting I thought we'd have to earn that which felt I mean it nearly knocked me off my feet but she was so desperate for her forever home that and she'd met us over video sorry I would caveat that not talking to her over video but she'd been shown videos of Charlie and I and the house and the bedroom she'd sleep in and her border terrier who's who's our pet dog and her big brother so she'd literally been given a tour of the house so she knew what we looked like but obviously to a four-year-old that's quite abstract as well it's just like you know and and her lovely foster mom showed her that video quite a few times she was very um sort of used to seeing the house and seeing us there was a lot of funny outtakes when we made that video actually which I must find someday um so and she'd seen Charlie read the The Tiger That Came to Tea, which was her favourite book at the time.

56:06So it was, but I just wasn't expecting that moment. It was just like, oh my goodness, this, I think this is going to work. And another corny thing. And I keep reminding her of this as well. So when we left her foster family's home with all of her stuff in the back of our car, and it was literally crammed full of, imagine the stuff that a four-year-old little girl has, the toys and dolls and everything else and as we drove away a rainbow this sounds really corny there was a rainbow that I could see at the corner of my eye and I always say that to Max every time I see a rainbow do you remember that's your rainbow oh I love that yeah so so I think you've got to be a bit corny as an adopter because you've got to fill in these gaps that they just didn't have they just didn't have so yeah it's a bit of corniness goes a long way you know being a birth parent it goes an awful long way being an adopted parent because it just means so much to them and she might go oh don't be silly mummy but and I know her face and I know well that actually means quite a lot to you yeah yeah and those are anchors as well and i think you know you there's a the early years you don't have that shared memory so once you begin to build those shared memories yeah do you remember this do you remember that moment and that's wonderful that's what we carry as adults isn't it we think back to things so being able to have that shared experience shared memory well it's all that thing at christmas when you start your christmas traditions and are now really embedded in our family and she because the first Christmas she was with us we were expecting her to be up at four in the morning like Finn always was and of course she wasn't used to that so Finn had gone out to the pub before came back early in preparation for this like four o 'clock her rushing in but of course you know that that wasn't what she was experiencing in her foster family so eight o 'clock we were like well where is she can wake her now but actually having said that last few years she does get up yeah so that has changed oh well i really hope that uh there's a pajama print with um rainbows and ginger cats that will be a lovely pajama print in fact one print we would love to do and um this was an idea of one of the lovely girls that works so there's Phoebe in the office and I think it's a great idea to do a print of the tokens that were for a little yeah I thought that was a really I can't own that that's Phoebe's idea that is lovely yeah that would be a nice idea for a kid's print yeah yeah because we're just so proud of that association and it also plays tribute to all those little stories all those absolutely does all those babies yeah totally that's a nice thing to to be to acknowledge those those stories as well well i i do think what you what you're what you've built um is incredible actually i do i'm really grateful you've shared your story oh no it's been a pleasure i've really enjoyed it thank you no it's been lovely thank you well here's to your family thank you and pajamas and pajamas

59:27yes here's your family and pajamas what a toast and actually talking about christmas um you know maggie waking at christmas it's just making me feel a bit christmasy um listen i want to thank fiona so much she shares her story so beautifully and I found it incredibly moving and lovely and I know there are so many families out there where there's so many ways to become a family and it's lovely to have Fiona share her story but also it just speaks to a part of me actually the idea of, I don't know, how would I phrase it? The families that can come together in that way and then it just feels like it was always meant to be.

1:00:13I'm going to keep this brief because I'm now on the plane and there's this horrible tone which I'm sure sounds ghastly in your ears so I just want to say thank you so much to Fiona Bell thank you to Claire for being an excellent producer thank you to Richard for editing it even while we've been on tour thank you darling shout out to Ella May, he'll be back soon with the artwork and of course mostly to you thank you for lending me your ears we have two more guests and then it'll be time for me to start a bit together in the next series. Keep your suggestions coming. Also, I had a little look the other day on where you can get your podcasts on Apple and I saw some lovely reviews and it's like, it's so nice for my morale.

1:00:53So if you can be bothered to write something on there, I will see it. I appreciate it. And I think it's quite a nice thing because when I look at podcasts, I sometimes look at those before I choose if I'm going to listen. So if you like it, don't hide. you're like under a bushel because it's all good and also you know this is like my passion project basically anyway enough of that I will be landing in Toronto soon sorry about that horrible noise lots of love see you next week take care

1:01:37Thank you.