Episode 174: Kelly Rutherford

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1:50Hello, I'm Safiya DeSpexter, and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, aged between seven years old and nearly 22, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. I know it's really frequent that I start off the podcast introduction with a little note about the weather.

2:33But A, I'm British, it's literally I'm programmed to do that. And B, I often speak to you on my way home from school. Because it's the bit of the day where I can kind of have a couple of seconds to myself. And I often think about things as I walk home. and I think I would like to speak to you and obviously while I speak to you I am experiencing the weather today I'm experiencing whether I'm not into is this is part report part complaint it's cold it's wet it's windy um none of these things are good things and I had to choose quickly this morning between a waterproof coat or a warm coat my warm coat isn't waterproof and I went for the waterproof so now I'm obviously freezing so yeah just not really feeling that yes I do appreciate that all things considered this is not a bad thing to be complaining about as in I should just get out on the deck I just wanted to get out of my system because no one's around, just you and me.

3:46So there you go. But actually, okay, now you're going to really, if you're already thinking this woman is moaning about nothing, it's going to get worse because tomorrow night I'm flying to Australia where it's like 26 degrees. So I think you can put this down to a little middle of the week grumpy moment, actually. and actually you know what I think a little bit of pre-travel tension I don't know if you get like that I don't know if you find when you're about to go away it can actually be family holidays it doesn't have to be just for work trips but particularly before I go well for work trips we tend to get a bit tense because you're trying to prep things and you sort of can't really I feel bad for the house I feel like I've got this sort of cloud of busyness moving up you know up the ramp to jumping off, which is leaving to go to the airport.

4:43So there's parts of stuff, places. I'm trying to cram in appointments and sort things before I go. I'm going to miss a birthday, my second one. He's having his 17th birthday, and I'll be away for that. He's not best suited me. I hate missing birthdays. So anyway, sorry, it's probably down to that. Anyway, never mind all that. I hope your week is good. what did you think of eliza philby last week uh it's funny it's really we had that conversation and it's really changed the way i'm thinking about the future and one of the things that we did and i can't remember if i mentioned this to you last week or not uh but thanks to the conversations that emerged from the podcast so thinking ahead to you know when my parents get older which is parents get older um we booked in to have richard's folks had a complete declutter in their house because they had a lot of stuff that they were holding on to that they didn't really need or use or enjoy but also i wanted them to really enjoy and feel lighter in the space they're in in their in their home so that's been happening and i guess that's a little bit crossover with what eliza was saying about looking after your parents as they get older and how people tend to live longer these days so sort of paving the way for us and for them i think anyway i digress this week's guest so about oh golly must be coming up for two years ago now i had a very funny 24 hours and i think i i'm gonna repeat myself because i'm pretty sure i said this to kelly as well but I had to I didn't have to I was invited to come and sing uh at a very fancy do I do all kinds of gigs sometimes they are fancy pants and that was what was happening on this occasion I was in Venice I mean already pretty dreamy and I was singing and I was singing at the it's like a jewelry jewelry launch diamonds essentially i think actually i don't know maybe all kinds of jewelry god sorry that's a terrible description of my night essentially it was a jewelry firm and they were celebrating their new collection and i sang for about 20 minutes half an hour inside this beautiful building in venice and while i was on stage sometimes when you sing at what you might call a corporate event they can be a little bit more dry you know people are not necessarily there to enjoy a gig they don't necessarily want to dance so you know i'm quite chilled but i also like a little bit of interaction because it kind of loosens things up so i um that's funny someone's put a sign of hair have you seen this zebra oh it's a little soft toy called Bowie.

7:49Oh, I haven't seen that zebra. That's kind of sad. Someone's soft toy. Sorry, that was a real... I wasn't expecting to see that sign. Before I went, have you seen the zebra? I was like, is someone having a laugh? Uh, anyway. Sorry, yes, where was I? So anyway, as I was on stage, I could see a lady holding up her phone with what looked like a sort of teenage girl on the phone at home, like a FaceTime. and I was like, oh, that's fun. The daughter's having fun. So I sort of beckoned the lady over, picked up her phone and sang to her daughter while I was on stage. And the girl at home was like smiling away at me and it made me feel good and lifted up my spirits and it was fun.

8:33Anyway, I didn't clock at first that the lady whose phone I was holding was the actress, Kelly Rutherford. So afterwards, Kelly came up to me and said, oh, that was my daughter you were singing to. and we just got chatting and I just thought she was so lovely she's got that lovely calm grounded wise sort of energy around her you know when you just automatically feel very comfortable and you have a nice chat and it's just yeah just I just really liked her I liked her vibe and so we started following each other on Instagram and we kind of kept in touch and she's been very sweetly supportive and I really like where she's coming from in life and the more I uncovered about her especially in prep for talking to her for the podcast, the more fascinating and strong and smart she became to me because I could see what she'd experienced and what she's learned from it Kelly is an actress first and foremost and she has two children they are now in their late teens boy and a girl Helena and Hermes and she's experienced something that I can't really imagine actually which is that when she separated from their father thus began a protracted and fairly public custody battle, which eventually resulted in the father winning and it changing the course of Kelly's life, the extent where she moved to Monaco to be near her children and to see them the most as she could.

10:20And, of course, she did not choose for this to be public, but, as I said to her during our chat, I didn't know how to talk to her about her life and then just sort of skip over that bit because it was so public. And I thought, what does that feel like? What does it feel like to go through that and have it be part of the public domain when you're going through something where you don't really have a map? And it's a lot of emotions. And I honestly think, firstly, what comes across in Spade is Kelly's absolute commitment to her children and the philosophies that have helped her through and have to navigate the complexity of that situation.

11:02So, my right hand is absolutely frozen and I'm ready to stop talking and listen back to this lovely conversation. I recorded it just before Christmas. I don't think we talk about Christmas, but it is a really good chat and you're going to know just what I mean about this calm wisdom. It's a really nice spirit. It's a nice mood that's about to be cast around you. So sorry for waffling on quite so much, but I'm having you over to a lot more intelligent discourse from Kelly. All right, see you on the other side.

11:48So I think this is probably the first time we properly meet, actually, because I was trying to explain to Claire. how we came to know each other. And it's quite a wild one, really. I've always been lucky enough to have quite a diverse range of work that I get up to. And last year, I found myself in Venice, a very glamorous night singing. And you were a guest at this beautiful event, which was celebrating, I think, the launch of a new range of jewelry? Yeah, sure me. It was for me. Right. I, the next day, just so you know, I had to leave the beautiful world of Venice, obviously get the gondola to the airport where I flew home to go to a place called Plymouth.

12:30Do you know where Plymouth is? No. No. It's probably what you're imagining. It's very sweet. It's coastal. My uncle lives there. So lots of good stuff about Plymouth. However, on this particular day, even though it was a festival called something like Summer Fun Day, it was pouring with sideways rain. They nearly cooled off our show. And all I was thinking is, how did I start in the day in Venice for breakfast and Plymouth for supper in the rain but in the glamour of the Venetian world sometimes those events can be quite dry when you're on stage and you're singing and you're thinking I'm gonna feel it and try and make people feel relaxed but you know it's quite everybody's dressed up it's quite glamorous and I noticed that you had your daughter on face I don't know it's your daughter but I could see a young girl on FaceTime and I thought I'm going to sing to her for a little bit.

13:21It's so sweet. I didn't even realize it was your daughter. It's just so nice. Yeah, she was having a sleepover with her friend, Caitlin. And I was like, you'll never guess who is singing on stage. And she's like, Mom, I want to see. I was like, okay. So I turned it around and everybody was kind of standing up enjoying it. And you were so sweet. I guess you saw me holding up the phone and you took the phone and started singing to them. You like made their world. It was so sweet. Well, please pass back. It really helped me as well. It was so sweet. It's playful. It was nice to see you. No, and as a mom, you're like, oh, that was such a good moment for me as a mom.

13:55Major points, you know. Well, same here. And I think, yeah. So how old? I know your son is now 19. Is she 16? She's 16 now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you feel like you're kind of in a new chapter with them now that they're at this later stage of teen years? It's quite significant, I think. It is. I took a road trip with my daughter, I think it was two summers ago. And we went from Monaco to Rome. And at one point, I remember sitting in the hotel room, and she was sort of under the covers looking at TikTok, I'm sure. And she said, Mom, it's time for you to get back to work. She said, We're good. And it was like a Nancy Meyers movie.

14:30It was out of nowhere. I looked at her, and I said, I think I'm going to go upstairs and have an Aperol Spritz now. Like, I don't even know what in the world, where it came from. Yeah. It was like, and she's so been that oracle along the way. I remember when she was super young and I was traveling a lot and she said, Mom, you need a puppy. You need to get a puppy. And I was like, and she was like maybe eight or nine. And she was so right. Like I needed a little puppy. Anyway, so these are the moments that you think, okay, I'm giving permission now in a way because you still hold on. I mean, I was holding on.

15:08Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And waiting. Is it okay? Is it not okay? because of also what we do. You know, it's very, sometimes you can be home for a long time and then other times you're, you know, away. So it was a good, I just kind of wait for those. I'm a bit blown away actually. Messages. I think that's incredible. I think it's so, she sounds like a very emotionally sensitive person because it takes a lot to be able to see your parent as a person outside of that role, especially at 16. I mean, my word, I definitely wasn't giving my mum permission to, I mean, I think that way. I probably would have said you can stop now in a kind of, please stop checking what time I come in from a club kind of a way.

15:50But not in a, I understand that you need to spread your wings a little bit. Yeah. Or even just have permission to, I don't know. I'm trying to think what she would have meant by that, just saying we're okay, I suppose. Yeah, I think she knows that I was very, you know, I think, and like we were just talking about, I think there's always this like mom guilt when you work or you're away or, you know, you have to have time to focus on these things, even though, you know, all I ever wanted was to be a mom. That was like, you know, everything else is just, okay, partly practical, partly creative, you know, just an expression, right?

16:27So, yeah, so I think it was just she was realizing that I had kind of slowed down a bit and was like, okay, I just want to be with them. And they were thinking, mom, it's okay. like you know go have fun go enjoy go you know which is such a beautiful thing that your kids like you said can see you in that way absolutely can want you to have a relationship can want you to get back to work can want you to have a full life I think it's important for them yeah I would agree with that it helps them yeah yeah I mean from where I'm sitting you already have a very full life so I don't know what your my daughter's expecting you to next do I don't either I haven't gotten those orders yet I haven't gotten that am I not doing enough have you seen my Wikipedia I'm waiting.

17:11I'm like, what does she want me to do now? I think next is like get married and move to Tuscany, you know, have a house. She knows I want a house with like lots of animals. And you know, that was probably, that's probably the next phase. What animals do you have currently? I have two dachshunds. Sweet. Yes, Cappuccino and Twombly. And they're very sweet. And what has brought you to London on this trip? Are you working here at the moment? Well, my daughter's in school now, so she's studying. And so I'm here, you know, with her, hanging out with her a bit. Nice. Yeah. And what exciting things have you got going on at the moment?

17:46We can start with the here and now. That's always nice to hear about. What have I got? I'm just, you know, kind of doing a lot of the same things, doing campaigns and the fashion things. And it's really freed me up to be able to travel and, again, be with my kids. So I love it. I've always loved fashion. I don't know how it kind of, I think it was this, you know, what we're talking about earlier. It was just, you know, that time during 2020 when we all were like, okay, you still want to be creative. You still want to find things to do. You may not be able to do what you normally do. But, and that's how it kind of, I got involved with this girl who was doing a platform and asked me to help her bring on some brands and I was posting some things.

18:31So I think it just kind of. And these were like smaller independent brands initially, were they? Yeah, yeah. The idea was to do a platform for global brands and emerging brands. So I just went on the path of discovery and found all these beautiful. And, you know, you think about fashion. If you look, you know, you go to the museum, you see fashion. If you watch film, you see fashion throughout history. In our history books, it's so a part of how we represent ourselves throughout history. Or even, I'm sure, for you on stage, how you feel. you know oh 100 it makes you feel a certain way it's energy even you know if you walk into a vintage store how you feel versus if you walk in and buy something new and and how things whether it's clothes or this table or whatever it carries energy i totally agree with you so i mean you had me at vintage shop right do you like vintage it makes my heart beat faster oh in fact the other when i'm on tour that's what i do i travel and i'll wake up in a new city and i'll be like wears vintage shops near me and I will spend my day trawling well I love it a little too much too much I know it's good though it's a passion it's beautiful and I'm not talking high-end here I like I like things that have got stories attached for me it's about that and I feel like I'm a custodian of something for a little while yeah and I'll try and show it some fun and then it can go back into the world and go on to its next owner and I love the fact that you you can basically uh find your character because they're not being dictated I mean there will be fashion elements to it because you might have seen oh I recognize that now this is in vogue so I'm going to go back to that source but you're also taking yourself out of that thing of I had a brief dalliance with the more designer things when I first had my first full flush of success on my first album and suddenly you know people are inviting you to you know London Fashion Week And I just, I couldn't really do it.

20:27It didn't feel like me. And I couldn't really carry it off. And I felt that the things were wearing me a bit. So I think for me, vintage allows me to just not worry. It takes you out of all of that. You're just having a conversation with your own clothes and your own self, really. Yeah, well, you, and you also are bringing, yeah, it's, it's, it is, it's energy. It's kind of what you resonate with, you know? I mean, vintage is so cool. I mean, you can really walk into a vintage store and feel all the stories that are there. I mean, you look at one of these dresses and you're like, who was the woman that wore this?

21:01And what was her life like? And I think that's part of, as an artist, what we love about it is I want to step into that role or this makes me feel a certain way. Or there's certain smells or certain, yeah, for sure, vintage is beautiful. Even those, I love those like old vintage diamonds and things and stones and jewelry. It's so beautiful. Yes, that's really lovely. I think as well, you know, we're both singing from the same song sheet when it comes to the significance of what you wear and how it makes you feel. And when I was looking through your Instagram, I have to say, hands down, the most beautiful Instagram I've ever seen.

21:42it's so it's so intentional and it was so clear that this is all coming from you which I think is gorgeous and so for people that haven't seen you've got um what's the most sort of frequent is shots of you in this lift an elevator sorry which I understand is in Monaco is that right and then quotations and the more I looked I actually found it really moving because so many of your quotations are focused on love and a sense of expanding self and sort of trying to make yourself feel limitless but also trusting in the process if you live your life in a way that has meaning to you that attack that appreciates what's around you at that time you will not be looking further than that for happiness or something unobtainable would that sound oh my gosh that was incredible what you just said that's so beautiful but there is is there's so many quotes about about yeah i think the one i saw this week was is it kurt vonnegut about their everyday saints they're the people acting decently in an indecent society um it's about it's about being a good humanitarian really a good a good member of whoever we're sharing this planet with at this pleasant moment it's actually quite humanist i don't know if that's something that's part of the world i really i think i that's i really believe in in humanity right and i think it's good of people yeah and the connection to it you know i think we're distracted by so many things and when we come back to our humanity everything makes sense it makes more sense right and when we see each other through the eyes of love and and which isn't always easy because it also requires us to see ourself through the eyes of love, you know, which is, again, you know, unless that was reflected to you growing up or unless you found it somehow, it needs to be sort of recognized because it's the most important thing is to, and, you know, people talk about self-love, but I almost think it's just seeing the preciousness of yourself.

23:57It's like we're each precious in our own way. We're each the child of some mother who gave birth to us, who really loved us and had her own complicated story. Or our father had his own complicated story. So it's really just seeing. I think a lot when I became a mother, too, I thought, my God, I just started seeing everyone as somebody's child. Even the grown-ups. Yeah, that's quite powerful, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. each one and they were raised in a certain way under certain circumstances and they've you know somehow survived that whether it was good or bad or whatever it was I'm sure everyone had good intentions but so I think we all are in this place of managing you know what we were born into and also the society and our times yes absolutely and I think also I mean what I'm hearing as well is something that can really prepare you for what happened you know as you get older and new chapters of your life because I think that I don't know if I'm putting this clumsy but almost like walking in step with yourself like seeing yourself for your flaws for your good parts can really allow you um there's there's so many benefits in that for as you get older being able to look at yourself in the mirror or have your friendships or whatever however those roots lie whatever choices you make that they really um you're not kind of almost like how can I put this you're just not not kind of masking to yourself elements so that you can really say oh yes I did screw up there or no that was intentional or just self-awareness I suppose I think sometimes when people get older they haven't really done that as much and then it can flip bodies are clever minds are clever it will come to the surface if you're not keeping an eye on being realistic about the life you've led and what matters to you I think yeah I know it sounds a bit namby-pamby but it's something I think about quite a lot because I was speaking to someone not long ago someone I know really well someone in their 70s and he was saying I've always had a problem with authority and now I'm in this age and I don't know how to really navigate that because I've always kicked against it and I was thinking you've got to walk in step with yourself you know what did you think you weren't gonna reach those birthdays like you've got to have a self-awareness I suppose and the concentric circles the impact you have on other people's lives well it's our greatest contribution to society is to be self-aware and to um work on ourselves you know what I mean if you want to call it that it's kind of like just reflecting on it's also just looking at your life and saying, why do I have an aversion to this?

26:44Is it because of something in my childhood that I go, oh, okay. And then you look further and you think, oh, well, my parent had that because of this. And then you realize it's just kind of a domino effect of energy that you're carrying. And so to think of what legacy we want to leave, and when you think of legacy, it's really the energy you want to leave on the planet. It's really energetics. It's individual energetics and the frequency that you carry within you you know and you can feel it we feel all these things go through our bodies and emotions and things um so it's how do you purify in a way yeah for lack of a good impact um those those energies so that you're a clear channel you know that that you're a clear channel for expression that it's not you're not up against this or up But you're not up against anything anymore.

27:37Yeah, because there's nothing more dangerous than harboring those emotions and carrying that negative around with you. Not that long ago, I had someone. Because I was thinking about, I totally agree with what you're saying. But I was thinking sometimes the internet can be quite odd with some of that stuff. Oh, my God. It's its own frequency. That's for sure. I know. And it was not that long ago. Someone had put, you know, you're always supposed to pretend, aren't you, that you don't read anything that put people online. But obviously the temptation to see what people say about you when you're not in the room is like pretty fascinating.

28:10Especially also the sort of person who gets up on stage and says, do you like me? So not that long ago, I saw someone had put a comment, obviously not meant for me to see. And it was something to do with my kids, which obviously is going to make me, you know, mother tiger. And I wrote this really quite long response, but not mean. I said, you know, I'm supposed to pretend I haven't seen this. you're not intending me to see it however here we are I've seen it you wrote it and for you you have to really be are you okay with the fact you're the sort of person goes online makes convert someone else's kids and then goes about your day I said look underneath your comment there's all these other people who've said you can't say that so you've affected all those other people they've taken time out of their day to interact with your negative comment maybe you're completely fine with this but maybe just maybe there's a part of you that thinks I don't really want to be that person today I don't want to put that out there and cause this concentric circles all these like little ripples out from that drop anyway I was quite pleased with it all told a friend I was like I felt better I did go all angry I was just trying to reason like what are you doing anyway so I thought I'm going to go back online and I'm just going to screenshot it just in case I need it again they blimmin deleted it they deleted their comment which I guess is what you want because you're like great let's go I was like really could have done with that little uh I was just in the right frame of mind to put it in the same way.

29:33I was like, no, I can't remember anything I said. But anyway, the point of the story is that I think that version of just all those little, as you say, the legacy. If you can just, what is the point? To leave the world a tiny bit better than you found it is really like, if you can do that. And the love, the love you leave. I remember feeling that overwhelmingly at my grandpa's funeral. Just that is the meaning of life. Who you loved, who loves you. It's true. I mean, the rest of it is fun, too. Oh, yeah, come on. It's all fun. Anyway, back to the girls. But ultimately, yeah, I mean, that's it.

30:09But I know what you mean about all these comments, and we're living in a time where people, you know, everyone has an opinion, everyone has a comment. And, again, that goes back to sort of self-reflection of that person. Do you know what I mean? I know, yeah, of course. So, you know, you think, okay, you almost want to send them love and say, wow, this is how you're choosing to spend your time. And it's what we realize is that, you know, the more we just heal ourselves, again, we're wasting a lot of time with all that stuff. And that's what's crazy when you could be loving and you could be supportive.

30:44And again, it's a lot society has been teaching us this whole thing. You know what I mean? It's kind of this. It's in movies. It's in music. You know, this kind of energy of that. so it's like how do we elevate that energy by by not giving it energy yeah you know the thing is not to give it energy i saw a bukowski poem actually about that and i'm trying to remember exactly but it's something to do with there are some people who get so angry and they will look for the thing in the day to make them angry don't they realize there's so little time and all that time they've wasted on that they will never ever ever ever get back yeah it's really good it's only short I haven't quoted it exactly but it's just how you see life you know what I mean if you see it as every thought every every everything you do how it does it may not feel like it and we're certainly not taught this um but every you know thought and feeling you're having is creating your reality so if if you know we if we actually even just try that and practice that for a bit or write about it or yeah you know then you realize that there is a lot of truth to that it's like if you look for miracles they're there if you look for the good it's there if you look for you know instead of being upset or jealous with someone you think oh I'd like a little more of what's going on there you know instead of oh I don't have that or there's a lack of that but like hey I would I would like to take on a little bit more of what what's going on with this person or that person definitely into my world you know and thank you for thank you for reflecting that to me because it's sent emotions through my body strongly and that means there's a reason.

32:25Yeah. There's a reason, right? Definitely. That I'm noticing this or this is in my reality.

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35:19And is this something that came from part of your acting training? Because obviously if you're an empath, you're opening up to other people's energies, their stories, their emotions. Yeah, always. From the time I can remember. And it was weird because I didn't really have anyone to talk to about it or I didn't quite understand it. My grandmother a bit, Mimi is amazing, she understood it a bit and saw it a bit in me. You know, she was like, oh, there's something here with, with, and, but now, I mean, as I've gotten older and I've read a lot about it and, and, you know, done some yoga and done some, you know, all this stuff.

36:00It, it, it definitely in meditation and creative visualization and all that stuff, it made me realize, oh, okay. And it took a while, you know, because you're in society, you're undoing a lot of stuff that you've been told and, you know, generational stuff still. and I suppose when you first start acting school because you're only 17 is that right when you were in New York and on your own there it's just so I mean that's so cool I did move out 18 but I don't think I could have gone to New York on my own where did you go did you go to London well I lived in London so I've actually in some ways been very untrepidatious because I even now I live 10 minutes from my mum right oh nice I know she's kept the she's kept the tie is very strong yeah and my eldest boy who you met just before he lives with my mum so he lives down the road with his grandma oh my god and um yeah but you know i needed to get out and have my own space but when you went to acting school i'd imagine you know in your lovely your grandma sounds lovely mimi noticing you as this observant little thing but then you're you've simultaneously got to in your lessons be open to all of that but then with your if you're if you're driving you know if it's driving a career there's a lot of the you're encouraged and it's the same in music to look both ways who else is going for the same jobs how do I feel about getting that not getting that why did that person do that you know it's that world as well isn't that yeah for sure you need to be really resilient I mean look in what we do for sure you know yeah you have to be but I loved it I mean I think it was one I believe it was a a way to express it was a way to express it through other people even you know because if you could see it in other people I could see it in other people and it was how do I express this how do I express being able to see these things yes so and it was and it was it just made so much sense to do so yeah the acting I mean I didn't know if I would like it or not but I went down that path and and absolutely loved it and of course yeah we have to navigate the business side of it and all of that what's your favorite role you've had do you think I really liked all of them in their own way you know I've liked all the women that I've played I've learned something from them and grown from playing each of those roles and been able to, you know, express different aspects of myself that maybe weren't expressed before, you know.

38:17Yeah. So it's great. Yeah. And what was going on in your life when you had your first baby? Oh, my goodness. I was, well, Hermes was six months old when I started Gossip Girl. So we were doing the pilot of Gossip Girl. and then Helena was born I think the third season so so it was you really went for it with the busy work and the babies it was a lot of mother energy I was playing a mom being a mom it was really cool what are your memories of it now when you think back with your with Hermes when he's only six six months did you say oh it's tiny I remember sitting and knitting him a little gray poncho when we were you know I was in the trailer you know I was kind of doing both, you know.

39:01I hope you've kept it. I did. I did keep it. Good. Poncho. What baby doesn't need a poncho? No, it was a little gray one with a little hood on it. It was so cute. So cute. And did you, you said you always wanted to be a mother, but did you always feel like you were going to, I mean, did going back to work like that feel quite a natural thing at the time? No, it was a lot. It was, it was a lot to juggle. And at the same time, I mean, somehow I had the energy to do it. I don't know how. You know how it is. You just do. It's like this energy is moms that we have. I don't know where it comes from.

39:37But it was such a beautiful time because to be a new mom, to be playing a role of a mom that I really love that character. So it was really, it was such a beautiful time in my life. It was challenging and balancing it all, obviously, but really beautiful. Did they come on set with you? Oh, yeah, always. They were always there, mostly. That's fun. Were there other people that were having babies around that time as well, or were you there? Yeah. You were providing the main babies. Well, my co-star, Matthew, his wife had a baby while we were filming. And who else? I think that's it. But I know if I can remember, yeah.

40:14Because everyone else was pretty young on the show then. Now they've all had kids. Yeah, that must have been so sweet. But when I was reading this, I was thinking, my word, that's a lot to be taking on you know such a high profile as well because it's you know it's one thing to be in a in an acting job it's another thing if it's an acting job that continues not all those jobs will turn into things that last but also so high profile and what was it like to be in the middle of all of that because Gossip Girl had it felt like even from here it was a big fever around that program it was really big it was culturally you know very impactful what's it like when you're in the middle of that feeling I think because I was so um it was I would go to work do my work and then I was full-time I was just mom so when I wasn't working I was mom and that was you know and even when I was working obviously I was mom but it was and they were so kind to me on the set and I only did 10 out of the 13 episodes so I would have like two weeks off at a time I had yeah they were super respectful too that I had little ones um so it was it was doable yeah it was doable it was a lot but it was doable and I guess with when it's that sort of um show it's got such a structure to the units and how it works and the days and I mean I suppose you know if you get anything like a steady job in in acting it's it's like okay well you know one of the fortunate ones to know the predictability and okay another season right this is how it's going to roll out and and the hours and all that kind of thing yeah because I'd have days that were super long and then I'd have days full days off so it was kind of a nice thing with the kids really you know you'd have a lot of instead of having let's say a nine to five job where you'd be gone every day nine to five I would have a lot of time in between so I'd work intensely but then you know and sometimes they they would come to the set sometimes they would just go play and do their thing and yeah no I think that's really sweet I like the idea of them coming along and it's nice to hear that it was such a supportive environment for sure and it's interesting because you know as I said we we met briefly last year for kind of through the medium of yeah the gig and the phone and then I was looking up again about you know all your involvement with fashion and of course acting and then of course you become up against all this information about the fallout of your relationship with your children's dad and I'm really respectful of that I'm the daughter of divorced parents.

42:38I know you are too. And so I felt like I'm very much going to take your lead on what I can navigate with it. But at the same time, I feel like it would be a really odd thing, not to mention, but also as another mother, my heart just went out to you. And I think there's so many ways to become a mother. There's so many ways that motherhood impacts us. For some people, it's you have your baby, you scoop them on your back, you keep going. for other people it can introduce them into a whole new worlds you weren't expecting and so I suppose do you feel firstly where you're sitting now with your 16 year old and your 19 year old who are saying to you go and get your find your guy in Tuscany and your animals do you feel you can now reflect on that time in a different way and how were you how are you putting one foot in front of another because I think my heart just was the idea of having it dictated about where I have to live and how I'd see it and by the way all I I think all I could see was love I mean it was it's so clear how much you adore your children which is gorgeous I don't even know if everyone would feel they can do all that you've done in that way it's a lot thank you so sweet no but it's true I mean it's you don't know when you become mother you don't know what's going to come your way but to have everything change and including where you literally sleep at night that's huge yeah well I think being an actress prepared me for that part because we always had to move around and be somewhere else and you know adapt very quickly so I had that part thankfully I wasn't it wasn't so crazy but yeah it was a super challenging time I'm thankful that I was a bit older I had my first I had a no no I'd almost when I was 38 and Hermes when I was 40 so I was a bit older I um it was super super duper challenging I don't even know how I got through like when I reflect back I don't even know how I don't even know how but you do and I think how I got through was really the love of my children do you know what I mean yeah because nothing else made sense so um the love of my kids is is is uh you know nothing else really matters i mean to me if if my kids if i you know my kids say i had the i had a great mom that's it i've won do you know what i mean i do everything in life that's literally all i want my kids to right that's it like we love our work we let we do it we're really it's it's a blessing what we get to do You know, it's such a fun thing.

45:10But I think motherhood is probably the most important thing because for all the things we talked about early on in this podcast, you know, for all the things leading up to this, that's why. Because you want to start them off well. Definitely. You know, as much as you can with the awareness that you have, right? So that they have less to have to fix later, you know. Hopefully. I mean, what was it? Like Michelle Pfeiffer was saying, I put money in a little, you know, bank account for them for therapy. Because as much as I think I'm being a great mom, I know I'm probably, you know, have a lot of stuff.

45:48I do. I've definitely made jokes similar to that a lot of days as well. You know. You know you're going to get things. I mean, every kid's got something. No, and we need them. And I think we choose them. You know, if we look at how, if you think of like, okay, we choose our parents. And it's also kind of through this challenging time, I thought, okay, well, what if they chose this? because they need to be do something here on the planet that's super whatever. And so they needed this experience. I needed this experience. You mean it's a learning experience? Yeah, like we, you know, if we can look at things, obviously a lot of it was looking at my own participation in it because, you know, once you get past the pity party and the blame and the whatever that this is happening and it's whatever, what I think saved me was okay you you need to look at yourself here because you can't just blame this other person for everything and even though I was I felt and most people around me felt fully justified in that right but yeah and at the same time you have to really and I've you know just talking to a friend about this too and how that's the healing yeah is looking at yourself and saying, oh, where was I super immature?

47:04Where was I, you know, what was my part in all of this? And because you can't change anything else, you can change yourself. You can look at yourself. And that's where you grow and you evolve as a person. Not by blaming other people, but by saying, okay, I chose this. I, you know, acted in certain ways. And how can I grow and move on from this in a way that's good and healthy? And it's healthy for the kids. Well, this is the thing because obviously it's ultimately all about them. Yeah. And about the fact that, you know, they have two parents. You know, it's a lot to navigate. And I think that makes complete sense to me.

47:45and you know you are so not alone but I still think that um it's a really difficult thing to navigate and I think for a lot of people it's not something that's very front and center it's not something we speak about very much I mean my my early childhood years there was a lot of issues with custody from my parents and back and forth and going back to the courts so it's some of those some of those things are really familiar to me but it's still not something that I think I remember ever talking about outside of you know around the table at home that would be it you know yeah and I think you know look we a lot of people are quite simply wired you know and if you're doing small talk about families and dynamics you're expecting quite a straightforward answer if you sit next to someone and ask what do you do and how does and I think and for anyone where you fall outside of the traditional you've got to now okay what what's the way to what works for me and how to navigate this?

48:42Who can I then, who's going to be part of my support network? Who are the people where you just don't really need to know any of this stuff? It's complicated. It's a bit messy. My kids are loved. Yeah. And it's beautiful. And in the end, you know, I think if, if we can look at times like this, whatever those challenging times are, right. Cause everyone has challenging times, whatever it is, right. And maybe a divorce that might be work and who knows how I think, And how do I get through it in the most graceful way? How do I love and how do I heal? And how do I look at this from a higher perspective of what good can come out of these things?

49:21And with kids, I think it's true. You think, I just want my kids to be healthy through this. That's it. That's the main thing. The kids seem really good. Right? Yeah. How do I, you know, I could only do my part, but it's not going to help by me blaming their dad. That won't help them, right? Even though, oh, my God, I was not always in that place. But as soon as I could get out of it, I would get on to, okay, let's not play that. Let's not do that. Because so much of things in society, you know, we're blaming everyone for everything. We're wasting our energy. We're encouraged to really as well, aren't we?

49:57We're wasting so much powerful energy. Yeah. You know, on things that really, you know, if each one of us said, what is my contribution to society? And that is to be a channel of love in some way, the best I can. Do you know what I mean? And because everyone, and you know, you can look at every celebrity, you think they have money or you think they have this. They have their own, believe me, you don't know what's going on. And on Instagram, everyone looks whatever. You really don't know what's going on. So it's important to just bless everyone and move on the best we can. It's not always easy.

50:38We have to have our little pity party, I understand, and have our moments. Sometimes you need to vent. Sometimes you need to rant. But we need to recover and apologize. Even with my kids, if I do, I always come back and say, I'm so sorry I was in such a state. And thank you for being so kind and allowing me that space to feel all that stuff. You know what I mean? I think that's very healthy. And it teaches them that, yeah, you're going to feel it. Yeah, you have to express it. And it's not always going to come out perfectly. But how you recover from it is super important. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's what I was thinking because I was, you know, obviously looking through everything you've experienced.

51:19And I was thinking, wow, that's so extraordinarily tough. But then when the word you use, grace, is absolutely it. because I thought this is somebody who's really worked so hard to distill the good bits from these experiences and use it as an opportunity to make things good. And you can give no bigger gift to your kids with that, really, because otherwise what are they going to do? Like the Michelle Pfeiffer thing, you know, carry it forward. Okay, let's have some conversations about the times when, you know, they didn't ever replace that or we weren't allowed to talk about that or there wasn't transparency or my feelings were confusing here.

51:57And actually, if you're a child growing up in an environment that becomes quite adult, which is what those, you know, when your parents split up when you're small, suddenly it's an adult context. Childhood, you hope, will be this little secure bubble and that makes it different, you know, speaking firsthand here. But if you can give them permission to feel all the feelings, let it sometimes get scrappy, let it sometimes be confusing, all that stuff, the worst things are when kids feel like they've got to clamp it all down. that their mum and dad don't really address it and it's just not given that space.

52:28So I think everything you're doing with these conversations but also how you put yourself out into the world, I genuinely think it will be helping other people in the same situation. I think they will find such huge comfort in it because sometimes you have babies with people and then things change and you've just got to brave new world. Okay, the days will pass. you will find all the little everyday work on how you frame it. It will come good in the end. It does. It just does. Well, the greatest, absolutely, because the greatest gift we can really give anyone in our lives is to be happy. The greatest gift you can give your children is to be happy and fulfilled yourself.

53:11Because I remember, you know, my mom, you know, both of our parents were divorced, is when she was not happy, I couldn't concentrate in school. it was like hard you know to live with a parent that wasn't happy so the greatest gift you can give your children your the love in your life anyone in your life is to find your happiness yeah and to be you know in a as much as you can you know to reflect that back to them otherwise they have to carry it yes and it's not the greatest thing you know to give them it's better to say okay let me work on myself here so that I heal yeah and I'm whole and complete so that the kids don't have to definitely and I wonder as well if you know you mentioned you had your babies at 38 and 40 you know maybe 10 years earlier that would have been way harder to navigate yeah you know if you haven't got to that point where you can be a bit more measured know the good people around you these friends are great yeah you know these relationships I have yeah they all really help don't they oh my god thank goodness yeah thank goodness for our friends and our support things as well sometimes definitely and I think you know that's what I was thinking about um as I mentioned you're cleaning and asthete you know you see the world in visual ways you've got your love of fashion and what it presents and sometimes we put on clothes because they're reflecting how we're feeling on the inside and sometimes it's I put this on and then I'm Turning up for myself.

54:40So sometimes with your pictures in the lift interspersed with these quotes, I was thinking, this is like a, what do you say? Like a way of putting something out into the world that's steady. Like, I am here. I've taken time for this. These things matter to me. It's very, like, peaceful. I kind of really got that feeling. Well, there's so much noise, right? Like you were saying, do we need another podcast? do I want to start a podcast? Obviously you need this one, but otherwise be gone. That's what I'm saying is that you're so good at it and I'm glad somebody or just these conversations are so beautiful that you're having with people and it is peaceful and it is real.

55:25And for me, that's what I thought, what can I do on Instagram that is not adding to the noise? You know, it's even now they're saying, oh, you'll get more reach if you put the music on. And I'm just sort of like, and I'm so many times I'm trying to read someone's quote or something and the music is going and I have to like go like how can I read this quote when this song is is going at the same time so it's a lot a lot of layering of noise I think it's also because people don't always know what's working when so sometimes it's a bit like I'll do everything all at once I know I know so I've just said let's just create something that's some it's it's a place where you don't it's less noisy Yeah.

56:01And also you mentioned about podcasts and for me, like the whole thing I wanted to achieve was all representations of motherhood on parenting and ways you can either become a parent, ways you can raise and things that can affect you. And I think, you know, obviously most people's first port of call is like quite a cookie cutter version of what family life looks like. But actually, for anyone that's gone through separation and then had, it is a new thing to navigate. But it's also, you're so not alone, you know, with that feeling of being so 100 % present. And then the bit where the kids go and you're on your own.

56:39And, you know, I've got a girlfriend going through it now. It's really tough. And I think it's good to talk about it because it affects so many people. I didn't even really think about it personally until I had my mum as one of the very early conversations I had. You're like, oh, yeah, now I see you in that equation, actually. Interesting. Yeah. But then probably, you know, when you're at the centre, when you're the kid in it, you're just busy getting on with your life and it's all just coming at you straight on. And you can have no better proof in the pudding than how clear it is that your relationship with your children, that, you know, you've seen lovely pictures recently of your son and then your daughter saying, it's okay now.

57:20I'm like, it's actually incredible. Like, the more you know, the more impactful that is that she said it. Yeah, exactly. It is. It is. It's so beautiful. But that's what I mean. They're aware of our happiness. It was a reflection of, hey, mom, we see that you're kind of hanging out here, but we're good. like you're you can now go you know how intuitive and how you know she seems pretty sorted yeah she's super sorted way sorted she should be running the world oh my god she and all of her friends are like so amazing i'm like oh my god i know that generation sometimes they can really surprise you yeah yeah but it's good isn't it because it can influence the way you see things too well i think i've always thought my kids were here to teach me you know i mean i think they come in with all the new knowledge.

58:04My voice, women were sort of portals to the other side. You know, we're the ones that sort of from wherever we come from to earth that were the portal for that. And how powerful that is and beautiful that is and how the kids really will tell you what's coming and what they're here to do if you listen. I mean, my son, when he was about four or five, was doing a drawing of robots. And I said, oh, that was intricate. It was so detailed. I said, wow, that's amazing. He goes, well, mom, you know, like in 18 years, we're all going to be robots. And I'm like, okay. And now here we are, like in this interesting time.

58:43So we've got three years left till his prophecy comes true. Oh, my God. But they really, they know what they're here to do. They know if we just, we think we know so much, you know, we're sort of an old operating system. We've been here, we've been conditioned, we've, you know, and they come in so. ready for what's coming and what's next you know that it's so important to listen to them and honor their what they're saying even if it seems out there yeah no i totally agree well i think there's been a lot of wisdom here so thank you so much for sharing so much and just end on something incredibly superficial um but also important to me i loved your collaboration with corral they're one of my favorite brands um so yeah that was very cool have you got a favorite brand you've worked with um not favorites i love them all really i love i love all the brands i mean they're i mean obviously i love corral i wear it all the time yeah they're so good for you oh my god i can see how yeah you love you must yeah yeah i do and i think for those listening don't know so corral is like french primer they do do handbags but they're primarily shoes very cute kind of 60s inspired so little Mary Janes with maybe two or three buckles different heel heights nice and flat sometimes little like they do a kina which is like a little cute I just wish they were a little bit cheaper they are really nice and all the colors they're like sweeties no I know they're beautiful they're beautiful when I did the collaboration I was like how can we even do something different you've been around for so long and there's so many colors and so many things like what do you even add to it you know they're really just that French thing as well it's like you feel cooler when you're wearing it yeah it's nice it's like you can almost wear it as like a teenager but then a grandmother can wear them like my mom does wear them right yeah completely like such a span is your daughter into your wardrobe yet a little bit but she's kind of she's got her own style of course you know but she does come in and be like i'll take this this and this and the rest yeah well she's the same shoe size okay thank you so much thank you thank you

1:00:53See, don't you feel all nice and calm? I feel like Kelly is exactly the sort of woman you want in your life. Philosophical, good listener, empathetic, interesting. I loved our chat. And a lot of what she said, we recorded that back in, I think it was in November. And I've actually found myself thinking back to our chat quite a lot, actually. And I've also thought about how Kelly sings the praises of her group of girlfriends. and how much support they've given her in all their adventures in life. And also her kids just come across so well. I know they sound like lovely young people. So, yeah, cheers to you, Kelly.

1:01:34And I am now speaking to you from, well, actually, at the end of what's been a really nice day. So when I spoke to you at the beginning, it was yesterday morning. It's dismal now. It's been a blue sky kind of day. I feel much better about everything. And, yeah, I'm joined by my cat. I can see Don Draper, my fluffiest little cat. He's lounging on my bed, which is something he's probably hoping to do the whole time I'm away. But I might have to shut him out because last time I don't know if it was him or one of his little cat friends. But we got back and basically I think one of the cats had like weed on the duvet as a sort of like little protest against us being away.

1:02:16So, Don, don't get too comfy over there. I also recorded another podcast interview for you today another lovely guest what a lucky bean I am and I've nearly finished my packing I'm heading off for a few hours in the in a few hours to go to the airport but I think I'm feeling a little bit more in the zone I also chopped off loads of my hair yesterday funnily enough I think that helped I had a really quite radical haircut not that radical it's not like I've shaved bits of it off or something I've had a bob it's really not that radical god that's that's like middle-aged radical isn't it it was long and now it's a bob a long bob at that so yeah but it does feel different it's like a different kind of energy to have it a bit shorter a bit more like nippy my friend Lisa did it for me and she said she'll give you a sexy bob and I was like you had me at sexy who doesn't want to have sexy hair come on so me and my sexy hair are going to head over to Australia and I'm actually going to record one of the podcasts while I'm there which is a first so that's exciting too but listen the next time I speak to you next week I'll be somewhere else I'll tell you I'll try and paint a picture for you as best I can about where I find myself I suspect I'll be in New Zealand by the time we we speak again so thank you so much for joining me this week thanks to Richard for doing such gorgeous editing work to Claire for such brilliant production to Ella May for the lovely artwork thank you to Kelly for being such a gorgeous guest and for being so generous with her her wit and her wisdom and her stories and thank you mainly obviously to you for your ears I know I am banging on about this but every time any of you contact me put a comment out about the podcast tell me who you'd like as a guest put a review on something I read it because this podcast is very much my baby it's like my passion project so I really do love your feedback and I do read it all and you have shaped exactly what this is what this community is so thank you and uh yeah I will leave you with that I'm gonna go off and I've actually been a bit clever if I do say so myself and I haven't filled my bag up that is in preparation for the amazing vintage clothing I will be finding when I'm in Australia and New Zealand so yeah watch this post all right I'm blathering on as usual lots and lots of love to you all and have a wonderful week wherever you're up to and I will see you very soon with another episode

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