Episode 178: Fran Cutler

0:00Fran Cutler: We live in a culture obsessed with dieting, weight loss, and exercise. And that can make eating disorder behaviors easy to miss. But the reality is, eating disorders are serious mental illnesses that take a major toll on your health and your life. But recovery is possible. Eating disorders are more common than you might think. Chances are, you know someone who is struggling with one. Or maybe you're struggling yourself. If you're concerned about an eating disorder in yourself or a loved one, I want to introduce you to Equip. Equip is a fully virtual, evidence-based eating disorder treatment program that helps patients achieve lasting recovery at home.

0:36Fran Cutler: Every Equip patient is matched with a multidisciplinary care team that includes a therapist, dietician, medical provider, and mentors. And you get a personalized treatment plan that's tailored to your unique goals and challenges. Equip treats patients of all ages in all eating disorder diagnoses. It's covered by insurance, and there's no wait list. If you think that you or a loved one could be struggling with an eating disorder, don't wait to get help. Visit Equip.Health to learn more. That's Equip.Health. If your eyes are the windows to your soul and your glasses are the windows to your eyes, then it's pretty important to find your perfect frames.

1:13Fran Cutler: That's why at Warby Parker, we've made shopping for eyewear as easy and fun as can be. Peruse endless styles in our stores or use our app to virtually try on frames and get personalized recommendations. To find your next favorite pair of glasses, sunglasses, or contact lenses, or to locate your nearest Warby Parker store, head over to WarbyParker.com. That's WarbyParker.com.

1:42Fran Cutler: Hello, I'm Safiya Despexter, and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women, who also happen to be mothers, about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons aged between seven years old and nearly 22 So I spin a few plates myself Being a mother can be the most amazing thing But it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything Welcome to Spinning Plates You know what, if you say one thing about me you can say that I get around Greetings from New York.

2:22Fran Cutler: How you doing? I last spoke to you when I was in San Francisco. Since then I've been to the Alps and I've been home and now today I've just flown to New York. I left this morning, it's Saturday morning, I said I left, got here actually Saturday morning American time and found myself in a very very pretty New York and not even cold there's snow here but it's all cleared in the streets there's just snow in Central Park and oh do you know it's really cute I'm just walking past where I did The Tonight Show with the Jimmy Fallon show that is adorable I didn't actually realise I was about to walk past that memories I'm here for a little thing tonight and then I fly home tomorrow back to work and then I do actually have it's a very New York sound in it very Manhattan um I actually have a whole week where I sleep in my own every night for a week so nice can't wait anyway never mind about me how are you how's everything been with you hope it's all been good hope you're feeling good about the fact that spring is on its way it's time in there I need a little bit of that and this week's guests oh so much fun I have known well, I've known of Fran Cutler since I was a teenager, so I used to pour over all the music press and there'd always be tales of what parties that Fran Cutler was at or throwing so she stood at this woman of myth really she sounded cool, she sounded connected and then I think we first met when I was in my early twenties I went to a party, there she was and I really wanted her she is loyal she's pragmatic she is exuberant and fun she's interesting and she's also really resourceful Fran's world and the way she lives her life is all of her own hard work and grit and determination she organizes parties primarily she's really good at it she knows what works she cares about the details started off with her organizing parties for oasis back when her very good friend meg matthews started moving in those circles and dating now gallagher and then getting married and now she runs does parties and events all the time she also has a daughter called mercy who is in her mid-20s and they're super super close and from our conversation you're going to hear about the rest of Fran's family and get a sense of why that family really matters and where her instincts of who to trust and who to start to sod off come from.

5:15Fran Cutler: So lots of fun for you this week while I'm walking around enjoying the sights and sounds in my, I mean I've literally got less than 24 hours in this city, but isn't travel fun? I'm a lucky girl actually, it's a good, it's a good giggle and sleep can write. All right, see you on the other side.

5:40Fran Cutler: Fran it's so lovely to see you and you my darling and as often I basically use the podcast as an excuse to hang out with you for a little minute

5:49Sophie Ellis-Bextor: that's lovely I love that I love that last time was Ibiza

5:52Fran Cutler: I know

5:52Sophie Ellis-Bextor: when you sang with Robbie Williams

5:54Fran Cutler: oh my word yes that was really fun

5:56Sophie Ellis-Bextor: that was amazing

5:57Fran Cutler: how do you keep a memory of that when you must be I've literally got a memory

6:02Sophie Ellis-Bextor: like an elephant I can remember my third act nursery school I can remember so many things and my family are like how do you remember that I was in Thailand for New Year and Tim Walker is an amazing amazing photographer I remembered a boyfriend from like years ago how do you remember his name and I don't know some it's just I think I don't know if it's my job which probably could be that I have to remember of people's names and things. Or it's just, I've not got a photographic memory, but it's just that I remember certain things.

6:38Fran Cutler: I actually think that's probably part of your DNA as well because I think how your memory works, how good it is. I'm being a host. You know, you're hosting.

6:46Sophie Ellis-Bextor: You're like, hi. Yeah. There are times when I don't remember and I say, hi, baby. I haven't seen you for ages. So that's quite a good boy, Al. darling have you been so they're my so if I say darling or baby you know that I've sort of forgotten you know I've given my bloody secret away there shouldn't have done that but anyway anyway at least I do it with a nice welcome I think actually probably more people will be

7:15Fran Cutler: worried about the fact you remember everything yeah yeah that's that's like oh no yeah that is

7:20Sophie Ellis-Bextor: keeping hold of all of it yeah that is true because when I met with a literary agent because they want me to do my book of course they're like have you written everything down I said well it's funny I've got diaries she said to me have you got diaries and I said oh my god yeah and she said did you write them like diaries I said no I just wrote them like meetings but I know if I look at them I'm gonna remember wow yeah I don't doubt it so it's quite a good thing I don't know if I'm gonna I'm supposed to be starting writing the sort of synopsis of it so then the literary agent goes away and sells it.

7:53Sophie Ellis-Bextor: It's going to take a lot of work. I'll bid for it. I bet it'd be amazing. Well, you know why? Because I haven't got Glastonbury this year. Oh, right. Okay. It's given you a fallow year to write your memoir. So I thought maybe I will. I want it just to be no nasty, just really funny and salacious. It's a bit like what that Miriam Margolis does. Yes. You know, she writes really funny stories. And I've got a lot of funny, funny, really funny stories. Like one book could just be on Glastonbury funny stories. I'm sold

8:22Fran Cutler: it would just be it would be hilarious and a woman that works absolutely I mean look firstly regular listeners are going to be confused by how silent this room is because usually when I record at my house we've got trains going by we've got cats jumping up on the table so we are inside the beautiful cinema room which is gorgeous

8:40Sophie Ellis-Bextor: so thank you I'll tell the viewers your listeners sorry not viewers your listeners that it's not my own I suppose it is my own cinema but it's in a block so the residents get to use it and you can just come and watch beautiful movies or watch the football or yeah the world cup next year i thought it'd be great to host friends of course well

9:03Fran Cutler: hosting is kind of the name of the game is it yes i do love to host so what is going on in your working life at the moment fan apart from starting to get your yeah working life january is always

9:14Sophie Ellis-Bextor: always the prep um I might get a curveball and someone said right we've got an event next week and you've got to do it I can do an event probably in three days I could turn it around if somebody asked me um and so January is prepping getting everything in doing the whiteboard which is all of planning right up until December okay and deciding what's going on there putting everything in doing all my meetings just doing all of my prep and I actually really enjoy it really enjoy it because you've come back I came back from Thailand where we spent two weeks Mercy and I and that was great because I have to be in the heat as well I have to be somewhere where it's really really hot and I can chill and I'm an overthinker my head's like a rolodex it just goes round and round and round in circles so I love that I think write notes think write notes and I'm technophobic so I don't own a computer or I don't look at any of my emails my assistant does that all and then relays them all to me I write notes on everything so I can write notes when I'm on holiday i can think i can just have little dreams about what i want to do and it's really

10:34Fran Cutler: nice and typically how many events do you think you get involved with per year well say

10:45Sophie Ellis-Bextor: three a month times 12 okay could be more yeah be less obviously covid didn't do a thing which was really strange for me yeah that must have been not meeting people and not doing anything I managed to get a little job that paid some money but I couldn't do anything and people were doing weird stuff I mean yeah some funny things were going on um but um I didn't do anything I stayed at home and cooked loads of vegan food because my daughters are vegan and that was quite exciting and looked after mum and it was really relaxing I must have put on about five stone but taking some time like that must have felt very unusual for you it was really unusual I had a really fun neighbor who's a really great photographer because Marianne Ovovanko who does a lot of famous people and great covers and he lived in the next street so we could get paralytic together most days which was great there was a lot of wine drinking and a lot of fun and a lot of walks and he was great to go and just pop round to I mean I probably wore my pajamas for two years

11:55Fran Cutler: pajamas and a just like a little gown yeah it's relatable yeah it was so nice to be sloveny but now that things are like normal pace so it's interesting the idea of three a month because in my mind I really didn't know how many you're going to say because I think the perception I had on coming to meet you today is that because obviously I associate with you lots of socializing yeah and so I guess these are there's events that you plan and then other events you'd

12:23Sophie Ellis-Bextor: part of too yeah there's it's really weird what I do because I invented a job that never existed you know no one had ever ever got paid to do a guest list for a party so it started with Meg and I who was Noel Gallagher's first wife we met and worked together in a shop in the King's Road called Jones which people from the late 80s 90s will know of and it was very famous and we we literally had everyone in there from boy george to george michael to fat tony to susie sue to everyone you could think of shopped in there and had every designer that was cool from body map to gaultier to john galliano to everyone and me meg and my friend chris we loved it we just had the most amazing time and the most amazing fun worked in shops and I was a makeup artist and I was a model booker I just went around doing anything and everything and then I started with Jeremy Healy who was a really famous DJ in that scene starting that scene as a little assistant that would go in twice a week and just do his diary I made him huge well he made himself huge but I helped and Meg in the meantime was doing her thing and she said I met this guy he's in a band called Waste I said oh I'm not going to see a band I'm a raver I go to raves so you know that's where I go I go to the cross and to Bagley's and to all these amazing clubs I'm not going to come see a band you're joking she went no you've got to they're amazing anyway went to the band with her she started going out with Noel then it got to the point where they were bringing out albums and she said why don't we do their parties and organize it all well cut to we did backstage at networth amazing that was our like events yeah and our first paid big event was lock stock and two smoking barrels with guy richie i remember that was our first big party in event yeah so So we did that together.

14:33Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Alan McGee at Creation, who looked after Oasis, gave us an office in Brimrose Hill. We had an amazing office and we were doing everything, everything together. But unfortunately, she got pregnant. And then I think she didn't really want to work and she didn't really have to, bless her. You know, she wanted to look after a baby. And she went, you can do it. I said, what? She went, no, you can do it all. I said oh my god what on my own she went yeah I said okay and I think because I didn't have time to think about it yeah and I didn't have a job and that was my job I just took it on but it's interesting because obviously before that you'd worn different hats and try different different hats I think that the the DJ thing yeah gave me a good start because that was organization and booking stuff in and doing things.

15:24Sophie Ellis-Bextor: So that was actually really good. And people and nightlife. And people and nightlife and hanging out. I was always a girl on the scene. Yeah. So that was really good, knowing everyone. Growing up in London, my mum and dad run a pub called The Spice of Life in Soho. And so I had that background.

15:42Fran Cutler: So did you grow up when they were doing that? Yeah.

15:44Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Yeah, always in pubs.

15:46Fran Cutler: That's quite a specific type of childhood, I would imagine. Oh, very specific. Yeah.

15:49Sophie Ellis-Bextor: I mean, you saw everything. Yeah, everything and anyone. And you knew. There was no secrets in my family about drugs and gays and sex changes. My parents were so open and really cool about everything. And they paid for two of our barmen to have transitioning. It was amazing. It was so cool.

16:09Fran Cutler: It's also what I'm thinking about with that pub life is actually about... You're entertaining again. You are, but you're also learning how to read people. Get really good at that.

16:20Sophie Ellis-Bextor: good people and not good people that is really funny because I don't know who I was talking to it might have been a podcast that somebody said to me how did you know how do you know who to let in and who not I said that's my job yeah you have to have a second like you have to think you don't always get it right come on let's be honest you're always going to get one oddment that gets into a party it's usually and I'm not putting anyone that's the assistant of the assistant of the assistant but it's usually someone that just gets a bit giddy definitely you know that works as an assistant to the assistant to the assistant and can't believe they've got in and they've had four cocktails and they've gone crazy and then they got to everyone pissed out their heads going I love you I'm such a big fan and then you're looking and you're thinking oh my god and then I have to be bad cop and got to them say hi darling do you mind coming over here and then getting the security to ask them to leave because they're too drunk and that has happened probably every single party oh actually i was doing something for the time style and they said how do you get rid of people like that because you're always going to get one yeah yeah always it's sod's law yeah it is but that then i think as i said like that pub culture

17:37Fran Cutler: would be just like people in people out and you've got to be able to kind of get a bit of a little bit of yeah a little bit of read do they seem trustworthy and I guess when people are um with

17:47Sophie Ellis-Bextor: alcohol yes it changes people so considerably yeah that you're in the same business you see people and you're out you can see them turn on a sixpence with alcohol some people could have two glasses of prosecco and they turn in someone totally different I mean I'm not perfect and I can but it doesn't I don't necessarily turn but you can see people turning into angry or then you get them super loving yeah they won't leave you alone yeah oh I love you oh I've loved you for years oh aren't you great I mean you you you get that and I've got that certain times and you just want to say I go okay yeah thank you very much um I've just got to pop over there because the lighting desk isn't working you know you just run off and how do you keep calm in the party because I imagine

18:37Fran Cutler: for you is it necessary that you're there I've got to be there because I am a perfectionist and

18:44Sophie Ellis-Bextor: I have to look well you can ask my daughter and my sister I'm never really calm at my event and also I don't drink anymore at my parties I might I might have a drink after but during I'm too anxious so I'm looking I'm watching remember you've got to see other DJs on the decks at the right time what's the door looking like are they managing that well yeah do the doorman know what they're doing do my people know what they're doing is there anyone famous stuck outside um is there any fights what politically is someone got in that shouldn't have got in that doesn't get on with someone how do I keep them apart how's the drinks going are the drinks flowing that VIP is getting drinks when they should be getting drinks are people worried do the is the music actually going well do people like the music so you're literally thinking of 101 thing isn't is the drinks going to run out yeah so you're literally up down round I can do 10 ,000 steps in one event amazing I've clocked myself you know and also the people in there that are underage I've really got to watch that nowadays because they really try and sneak in with older people or younger and I'm really on that and I've got to be careful of myself and I've got to be careful of the venue and you know you don't want to tell 17 year olds that are nearly 18 they've

20:04Fran Cutler: got to go but they can't you really can't have them in no and how have you kept your enthusiasm

20:11Sophie Ellis-Bextor: for the energy of that right absolutely that's another question a lot of people ask me it's because it's always different. I may work for the same client every year, like Glastonbury. You know, and I've had that area and worked in that area for 25 years. Yeah. And it's called Moonbow, but a lot of people call it Frantanamo Bay, which I think is hilarious. And it's never, ever the same. And I think that's what keeps anything exciting. Yeah, it's kept your relationship fresh. Yeah, with my relationships fresh with it all and the same with events. It's never the same twice if I do it even at the same venue.

20:55Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Yeah. Never the same. Yeah, I completely get that. Different crowd because you're always going to. And also with a guest list, you can invite a very similar type of people. But I guarantee people that say they're coming never do. And the people that said they're not coming, they do. and it's always a twist of fate that you're going to get someone amazing turn up that you didn't expect and you're like oh my god wow that's so great and I get super excited about that you know Halloween's the funniest because you can't recognize people and you get all these people coming like we got I think a lot of the actors from the house of Guinness because it was like the biggest show at that time and quite a few people came from that and my sister didn't tell me till the next day that that gorgeous lure partridge was there and i didn't know and i was like so angry i was like why didn't you tell me she went i thought you'd know i said how would i know he was in disguise he was in halloween costume he's probably another one you said hi i'd have gone up to him so i was so upset so those little things are quite funny yeah well i'm sure there's a moment like and then you get your blaggers oh yes the stories of so-and-so said and that's that and you know they're famous you should let them in that I don't like I don't like

22:17Fran Cutler: you should let them in because they're famous I was with my um when I went to see Oasis the gigs they did recently my friends and I started this whatsapp um group while I was watching the gig that I was crying and laughing and reminiscing about the 90s. Yeah. And the stories that got told to us as impressionable young girls. One of my mates got off with a bouncer because he said he was Johnny from Men's Wear's Cousin. Yeah, well, everyone would have done. I don't think he was saying the truth.

22:44Sophie Ellis-Bextor: You know, I mean, I met, I remember with Goldie, that's when him and David Bowie become really, really good friends. And Goldie was doing these collabs with David Bowie. and we all went me I think Noel, Meg and everyone and I met David Bowie and he said oh so how do you know everyone I said oh I'm Noel's sister he said but you've got a totally different accent I said oh I went to private school private school with my Cockney accent I mean the bullshit that we came out with was hilarious and it was only just recently in Thailand that I met with Goldie and we were reminiscing about that yeah it's like so the people we met yeah and also the confidence of youth to come yeah because when you're not a fan of the band you're with the band you're treated with super respect yeah and so it's a different sort of entrance and access you get yeah with the band absolutely you know like you know if you're with Richard and they're playing it's totally different than being a band yeah you know fans get stopped at a certain door when you're with the band and you've got your AAA, you go everywhere.

23:51Fran Cutler: Yeah, yeah. I know. And I think you never forget those times when that's happened to you for like the first time.

23:56Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Oh, my God.

23:57Fran Cutler: And you think, oh, my word, that little rush of like, I've got into that door.

24:02Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Oh, it's like winning the golden ticket on Willy Wonka. Exactly. It really, really is. And I remember Jay Jagger giving me, it was when the Stones played at, I think it was Olympic Park, and she gave me a gold pass that said, this will get you wherever you want whenever you want and I'd never seen it before in my life and I was just running around on my own backstage down at the bottom at the top here there and everywhere and I'd never felt so privileged in my life she just put it on me bless her and it was the best night of my life yeah and you know what I did got people into the mosh pit that were in really bad tickets.

24:42Did you?

24:42Sophie Ellis-Bextor: And seats. Yeah. So I had some friends that said, oh, that seat's really bad. I said, look, I'll come and get you. And I walked them through and got them in. That's nice. So you could share it with people. Well, it's very important about sharing. Yes. What's the fun if you're doing it on your own?

24:58Fran Cutler: We live in a culture obsessed with dieting, weight loss, and exercise. And that can make eating disorder behaviors easy to miss. But the reality is, eating disorders are serious mental illnesses that take a major toll on your health and your life. But recovery is possible. Eating disorders are more common than you might think. Chances are you know someone who is struggling with one. Or maybe you're struggling yourself. If you're concerned about an eating disorder in yourself or a loved one, I want to introduce you to EQIP. EQIP is a fully virtual, evidence-based eating disorder treatment program that helps patients achieve lasting recovery at home.

25:34Fran Cutler: Every EQIP patient is matched with a multidisciplinary care team that includes a therapist, dietician, medical provider, and mentors. And you get a personalized treatment plan that's tailored to your unique goals and challenges. Equip treats patients of all ages and all eating disorder diagnoses. It's covered by insurance and there's no wait list. If you think that you or a loved one could be struggling with an eating disorder, don't wait to get help. Visit equip.health to learn more. That's equip.health. Taking care of your eyes shouldn't be a hassle. That's why Warby Parker is a one-stop shop for all your vision needs.

26:10Fran Cutler: Our prescription glasses and sunglasses are expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Stop by a nearby store or use our app to virtually try on frames and get personalized recommendations. Did we mention we offer eye exams and take vision insurance too? For everything you need to see, head to your nearest Warby Parker store or visit WarbyParker.com today. That's WarbyParker.com.

26:35Fran Cutler: well talking of that i was thinking because you've worked a lot with your sister yeah yeah for years yes and also you've mentioned mercy yeah your daughter so she comes yeah it's because i think if you involve family it transforms everything well family like yourself you're very we're very

26:53Sophie Ellis-Bextor: similar because both areas but we both are very very into our family we're family people family means the world to me I mean I would be nothing without my family I'd be the first one to say that my daughter and I is super close my mum my sister all her girls we're just really really tight and you can really see the difference in life with people that they've got different morals different compass when you've got a good family behind you I would totally agree with that it's like just a whole different way of being and you know I'm not judgy but you see you meet a lot of people and you just think god you've just really not had the same upbringing I have you know you really haven't not and it wasn't we didn't have a rich upbringing we didn't have a really poor upbringing because my parents are publicans but it was a family upbringing it was about family and really looking after each other you know and just being super close and so with that in mind did you always think that you would be a mum one day was that something you hoped for didn't really think about it because you know what I was too busy working yeah I was too busy working and being a party girl and I think what happened was when I did get pregnant and it happened I was like oh my god I've got to work twice as hard now because I've got a baby and my her father left me when I I was three months pregnant.

28:22Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Sadly, he's no longer with us. And so I literally had to do it all on my own. But what did I have? A great family behind me. Yeah.

28:30Fran Cutler: So we're thinking, it sounds like you're very close to your mum. My mum and dad were absolutely excellent.

28:38Sophie Ellis-Bextor: And so they lived in Bedfordshire and they were childminders. So that was really helpful. So say, for instance, I had a really busy week. I had a flat in Tufnell Park. I'd drive Mercy down to them and they could have her for three days while I did my job. and then I'd go and pick her up at the weekend, maybe stay down there and bring her back. When I was making enough money, I could have a nanny that lived around the corner. This is a really funny story. She worked for us for 13 years. And on Thursday, I was just going to my doctor's in Harley Street, bumped into her. Right. After all this time, I mean, we follow each other on Insta.

29:10Sophie Ellis-Bextor: She started crying. She was like, oh, I just remember you and Mercy. And I just show everyone pictures of Mercy and say, look at my Mercy. She's amazing. Look how grown up she is. And it was just, you know, I'm very much into those relationships. Saying that, I'm quite weird about boundaries. I set my boundaries. You know, I'm not always about everyone working for you is part of your family. So I don't believe in that. Once you find a good one, you know a good one. But I don't believe everyone that works with you should cross those boundaries and be part of the family. No. Because it doesn't always fit like that.

29:45Sophie Ellis-Bextor: And work is work.

29:47Fran Cutler: Yeah, and I think you kind of, you know, you're working for yourself. So you're... You're representing yourself. Yes.

29:53Sophie Ellis-Bextor: That's sometimes very difficult. Well, that's true. It always comes back to you, doesn't it? Always comes back to me. It's always my responsibility. It's always my integrity. So I always say to my girls and boys, like when you're at the door, you're representing me. They're always super polite. And another thing that I always have, they're always either been to school with Mercy or they've been friends of Mercy. so I've got a really good group that know Mercy one's just left that went to school with Mercy and another one, Katie knows Mercy through school and they're all really beautiful young girls that are really, really, really well-rounded individuals they're just really nice people

30:36Fran Cutler: Well what I'm picking up from her with that as well is that that's really Creating a sort of family That's what I was going to say you've got this sort of maternal take very much so I love the kids even if you hadn't become a mother yeah I think you might have still had that I suppose being an older sister as well yeah

30:52Sophie Ellis-Bextor: are you the eldest I'm the eldest but also I feel a little bit like never growing up my dad was like that he was always like really funny and a young spirit and I hope to always have that you know that young fun spirit does really keep you happy relevant you know and you know in our world we have to keep on a hamster wheel continually we're on this wheel of knowing what's going on who's the relevant bands why aren't those djs playing for me i better know this i better know that mercy and her friends keep me relevant that's what's really good about the youth and you've got that with your boys it's like they tell you what's going on that's very true but i'm picturing

31:39Fran Cutler: when you i mean look you know you said when you found out you were pregnant yeah it came by default a single parent only three months into your pregnancy yeah and now you're down the line where you can see that your relationship with mercy was so consolidated by the foundation

31:55Sophie Ellis-Bextor: which tells me everything but at the time it must yeah i can't even now when i talk to my therapist about it I can't think how I did it yeah I really don't know how and I put her in private school so I paid for everything as well and Meg was so kind and we didn't see each other for a long time then we really reunited at Cardiff the first gig and she's such a great soul and she said to me you know you you know you've done it all I'm really proud of you look what you've done and she's so kind like that you know she's had her ups and downs obviously divorcing from nile and going through that stuff i never married so i never had to go through that and um i always because when i'm always talking to cab drivers and why did you never get married you look like a pretty lady i said i'm a wild animal you can't tame me and i sort of believe i am somewhat like you know I just I like I like doing my own thing yeah but with my daughter we go on holiday

33:04Fran Cutler: together but what are your memories of that those early years how how did you struggle a struggle

33:10Sophie Ellis-Bextor: it was a struggle but I think you you know that you just got to keep your head down I mean I had fun I'm not saying I was a stay-at-home mum because I had to work at night so I really had fun and I had a lot of really great friends that had kids all around the same age so you know Kate had Lila and Sadie and Rose and all my friends all had kids and so all the kids grew up together and thankfully they're all really good friends still some of them are my god children yeah and they're all amazing but I think you just get down and do it you know you just get down and get on with it yeah because you can't everyone nowadays moans about everything you know oh this is going on or that's going on they're very self-absorbed instead of looking out and I think it is probably because of social they're looking in at themselves all the time you've got to look out and futurize

34:10Fran Cutler: and think positive well positive you've got to be positive yeah and I guess as well um you've created opportunities all along the way and that's something that means it can be really hard you have

34:23Sophie Ellis-Bextor: to create your own opportunities you're hustling let's be honest I'm a good hustler and if I needed to make money I think well how can I do that who can I call what can I do you know and it was a hustle I totally believe in that that's why I see some of these kids out there that are hustling I think good for you you're doing some really good stuff you're not sitting around moaning or you know or you know do it you know taking loads of drugs and just forgetting about it they're actually getting out there and doing stuff lots of them have got lots of different strings to their bow that's something we didn't do we sort of stuck to our lane and got on with it yeah i think but a lot of them they could be a dj then they might sing for a bit then they might do a bit of influencing or then they'll do you know a photo shoot and this that and the other Yeah.

35:14Sophie Ellis-Bextor: I mean, they're doing it all.

35:15Fran Cutler: I think, I mean, I think that's partly that sort of, if your career's a bit crystallized in the 90s, it's quite hard to get out of that mindset of one lane, isn't it? Yeah. Because that's not like that now. No, no, no. But then it was you very much, what do you do? You stayed in your lane. Stay there.

35:30Sophie Ellis-Bextor: You stayed in your lane because, what do you want to be, jack of all trades and master of none? And I think, could you imagine Noel and Liam going from being an oasis to being therapists in their part-time or being an oasis? I'm not sure that's the obvious profession. Yeah, do you know what I mean? It's like they stuck to what they know. Also, they earn a lot of money from it. But, you know, it's just funny, isn't it? I think if you're an actress, an actress is going to singing. Yeah. And singers go into actressing. That's a sort of natural flow.

36:08Fran Cutler: Well, I guess this most similar thing, I think, about your career path and the ones that Mercy and her peers will have is that you said, I went into a job that wasn't even really a job. It hadn't been invented yet. Yeah, I made it up. And I think that that happens a bit more now in terms of having to be a bit more reactive to ever-volving. Situations.

36:25Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Yeah. I think, yeah, I think so. I think how that happened is that there was a definitely, it was a Tommy Hilfiger launch of the flagship store on Bond Street. And I was doing the DJs and they said, oh, would you do a guestist if we gave you some money? And I did. And the oasis turned up and Meg and everyone. And then that was that. Yeah. And it was like, right, now we know sort of what we're doing and we can do it. But there's so much more to what you're doing than just who's there. Yeah. I mean, it's actually harder to do a party for 10 than it is for 500.

36:56Fran Cutler: Oh, yeah.

36:56Sophie Ellis-Bextor: so much harder yeah and you know and the client wants five a-listers and they want this particular brief yeah and you're like well if you gave me 500 people to bring and i can get 10 out of that that'd be much easier but when it's smaller it's so hard yeah what about when the client is your

37:16Fran Cutler: small daughter and she's got a guest list from school what were the parties like oh my god i

37:21Sophie Ellis-Bextor: did the best birthday parties i must say i would expect no less i even once got the winner from bake-off and we did an afternoon at the winner at bake-off's house and so we got a mini bus down to her house and taking 12 girls that's amazing right and that's the fact you got her and got her to use her own home yeah we went to her house and it was amazing so things like that we did we did such amazing like the cake's great but i'm not sure about your playlist yeah

37:51Fran Cutler: Yeah, exactly, exactly.

37:53Sophie Ellis-Bextor: And I'll never forget those girls remembering that. And then in parks, there's some me funny stories, having fights with people when you think you've got a bit of a park that you can do your party at, and then you get some weird drunks coming along, and one of them started weeing by a tree, and I went and punched them and said, get away from my kids' party. You've got your knickers around your ankles. and you know the kids don't really want to see that in Primrose Hill so one of the Louis Starkey reminded me that she said auntie I can never forget you hitting that punk rocker with the wing you know taking the knickers down that's a pretty memorable so that was a memorable one there's probably loads more like that because I was obviously really stressed as well because her parties were the most stressful yeah yeah yeah yeah which was hilarious you have to live with the client so great parties for her great parties for my mum which I'm organizing her 90th which um it's going to be a lovely lunch and and my sister are you all good if she's having a birthday or something I'll do something for her but actually when you've been speaking I was

39:00Fran Cutler: thinking about how when I said you know have you kept your relationship with your work so fresh and you said it's you know it's always evolving and it's never the same twice I was thinking actually that that's something that I have always found reassuring you know when people have got they don't always organize events very often and they've got their big thing, which is invariably something like a wedding, which is like everybody gets in a twist about. And I've always said, you can do all the details and all the planning, but actually your memories will be something you cannot plan for. It'll be a funny thing someone said or two people getting, you know, something unexpected.

39:31Sophie Ellis-Bextor: 100%. And also, I've always believed, because people always say to me, how do you get into the job? And it is something that you organically get into. do if you're so pretentious and planned about something which I do hear from a lot of people well I'm definitely going to do that and you know all right some people do but if it happens organically and naturally it tends to fit you better and it tends to last longer oh yeah because you've naturally done it so in an event I mean my sister's the one that's always calming me down calm down shut up stop getting all uptight because she's the calm really calm energy and I'm like you know thank god because I do have to let it flow because you've there's a point then what you've done everything and you can't do anything else except let it go exactly so you've got to flow and then at the end I'm like oh yeah I'll sit down now I'll have a little bit of a

40:26Fran Cutler: relax I can watch it and as far as you can see this will be something you'll continue to do

40:31Sophie Ellis-Bextor: because yeah I hope so I mean I consult on quite a lot of different things which is really exciting and thinking of what festival I might do this year instead of Glastonbury. But as you know, there's nothing like Glastonbury.

40:46Fran Cutler: No, I know. It's a very special place, Glastonbury.

40:49Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Yeah, I'm going to really miss it. Me too. But we've got next year and that's going to, I wonder who's going to play, maybe Oasis, Lily, because Lily's going on a world tour in March. I saw you did an event with her. Yeah, we did a big party for her for a Christmas party at Stringfellows. That's so cool. And she dressed up as Mother Christmas in a very sexy, naughty little outfit, bless her. And she looks so gorgeous. But I've known Lil since she was like 14.

41:17Fran Cutler: Well, does that feel, now that you've got to this point, is it nice to sort of reflect? Oh, it's a lovely feeling. Yeah. It's a really nice feeling because none of it's forced or fake.

41:27Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Yeah. You know, now I don't have to go out and meet new people and sort of, And also, I think, which is very, very important, and I take pride in this, when people come to my events, I'm not going to F them over on something and make a picture bad or a bad write-up in the press. And I don't do PR or deal with the press, though. I always make sure that that side of thing is really, really overseen by someone good. and I think when they come into something like mine, actually it's really funny because on the phone to David Sims today, who's a really big photographer, and he was saying, all my kids are all going here and everywhere.

42:06Sophie Ellis-Bextor: I said, but I know they come to your parties, they're going to have a really good time and look after us and I definitely will look after them. You know, and that's a nice thing. Definitely. For my friends to know that their kids can come and they're looked after.

42:20Fran Cutler: Yeah.

42:21Sophie Ellis-Bextor: And then they know most of the kids there. I'm not just saying they're all kids because we have, I like to be very inclusive. It's from, I'd say, 19 to 70. You know, in one corner, it could be Joe Corey, Harlan Miller, Nellie Hooper, who was a big producer back in the day. Two David Sims' kids and Mercy and everyone. But you look at that and that's what a party should be. Yeah. All inclusive.

42:47Fran Cutler: Definitely. And that's a lovely mixture.

42:50Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Age, sexuality, religion, colour. everyone all involved and having a great great time that makes my heart sing yeah that's what i love and just look back around yeah it's so fun and then they're meeting new people yeah and seeing like oh you know joe coric a guy's on oh i know your mom from back in the day and oh i think you know my mom and then people start talking it's a really great time to to sort of meet, you know, different people in exchange. I've done so many of those and created new friendships and things like that. Oh, I bet you've facilitated so many things. Oh, my God, yeah. Really have done so, so many of those.

43:34Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Some of them I'm like, oh, that's great. Then I was like, oh, God, I wish I'd have done that. I've already got on my nerves. Shouldn't have introduced them to. But that's bound to happen. you know you think oh what about me hello me over here I introduce you to and they're like all pally and going on holiday together and I'm thinking uh what am I chopped liver excuse me I introduced you to yeah but yes my daughter said you just gotta let that all get on that's life

44:01Fran Cutler: that's your job it's true I mean and I love the fact that you and Mercy are so close I mean I I've seen you been on holiday with us I have yeah and she's such a lovely lovely girl but I also love the fact that you you know you spend this time you holiday together yeah have that yeah she's

44:18Sophie Ellis-Bextor: got I think she might be getting a new boyfriend soon so what if I'm like not invited on the Christmas holiday I'm a bit worried I've got to find myself a new companion but I did say to her you know you can always have the spare room you and your boyfriend and you know I'm not boring so we can have fun she was like well I need to think about that so she's she's it is so ab fab by our relationship it's so sappy she's like everyone says it and it is true yeah it happens that way doesn't it totally because she's so straight it's hilarious but she does get on

44:53Fran Cutler: with all my friends so perfect yeah that is and I think you get that nice um thing where the ages

44:59Sophie Ellis-Bextor: or sort of cross yeah you're like that with your boys you got five right yes yeah I still don't know to this day how you've got five boys when you look back to old yourself how old's your youngest He's just turned seven. Oh, is he a mummy's boy?

45:13Fran Cutler: I think they all are, actually. Are they? Oh, that's good. Yeah, at the moment. I mean, look, who knows what will happen.

45:18Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Oh, but they love just being around you. Where are you? What time are you coming home? Are they like that?

45:22Fran Cutler: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. They don't really like you going out. No, they don't, actually. They don't, no.

45:27Sophie Ellis-Bextor: They like you being at home.

45:28Fran Cutler: Yeah, and actually, because I was thinking, I mean, I know when I had my first, I mean, he's 21 now. Yeah. when I had Sunny, I found going back and finding my identity back in my work life really tricky, actually. And I felt quite discombobulated. But I think for you, when you said you had so many girlfriends also being mums, that must have really helped.

45:48Sophie Ellis-Bextor: That helped a lot. That really helped a lot. But having five, you've got, you know, you've got one out and then you've got another four to go and then you've got, it's so good because then you've just always got them. And then you've got their kids. Yeah. God, Christmas is going to be really busy when they're all married with children. Well, you must have, how many cousins did you say you've had? Oh, yeah, but they don't come around for Christmas. We just go to the Walsley, the eight of us. My sister, her husband, her kids and mum and us. It was really nice this year. Really, really nice. But you're going to have a very busy Christmas.

46:21Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Where did you go for New Year?

46:23Fran Cutler: Actually, I had a gig in Florence.

46:25Sophie Ellis-Bextor: I love Florence. Which was really nice.

46:27Fran Cutler: And so we basically said, yeah, we all went for three nights.

46:31Sophie Ellis-Bextor: I did a birthday there. I love Florence.

46:32Fran Cutler: So pretty.

46:33Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Oh, the little bridges and the little shops and everything about it is chic. I know. Isn't it? Yeah. It's like you definitely are in a Renaissance painting. It's like you walk around and you're like, oh, my God, there's so much to see and the food. Did you love it? I did really love it. And was the people you played for nice?

46:54Fran Cutler: Actually, yeah, it was very sweet. Easy. I guess I have to do a little bit you know I play a small part quite often and if I'm lucky and actually I think I think if someone's chosen to have me as part of their event I feel like it's a privilege you know yeah because there's a lot of people out there they could have chosen so many people yeah so many people so no I always I always do appreciate that and I think also you know I really always wanted to be good at playing live and actually doing all manner of types of gigs as really the thing that sort of like helped me hone what I do let's be honest

47:27Sophie Ellis-Bextor: to get a gig on new year's eve was a bloody good one in Florence god I don't know what I lucked out this time I did new year I think I've even asked you this before because I've asked you I think did I ask you to do Maldives once for me because I did 20 years remember that because I did 20 years in the Maldives you might have to ask you again I did 20 years organizing in the Maldives and that was amazing doing all the the singers and the DJs and all of that sort of thing yeah I love the Maldives but I now don't do that that's why we ended up in Thailand but that is just like

48:05Fran Cutler: mental they're so busy yeah but I think lots of beach clubs I mean to be honest I think uh the playing all these different kinds of venues and events it's like I've got so many friends that work in that and do now you've got a lot of clients well yeah but also i just i really know where i am in the food chain you know i'm a hired entertainment those things and i have to i really want to get it right yeah and so when you said about the events when they're big the smaller ones hard yes it's the same when i'm on stage or if richard and i are djing if it's smaller do you like to dj together or do you just yeah you like we only dj together yeah it's like There's a little rule we have, yeah.

48:43Fran Cutler: Oh, that's brilliant. So that it means that we only do it, yeah. And it basically gives us a little bit more time together, but also different kinds. Oh, I think, didn't you do it together

48:51Sophie Ellis-Bextor: when we did the Sir Martin's Lane event? Do you remember in that little tea room when you did the band? I remember it was so much better than mine. Yeah, you did. You did it together. I think you just started DJing together. Okay, okay. And if you remember Sir Martin's Lane, it was before Bungalow 8 downstairs. You'd go straight ahead and there was a bar. You DJed together. Yes.

49:11Fran Cutler: golly I do remember that

49:12Sophie Ellis-Bextor: we're talking 15 something years ago

49:15Fran Cutler: yeah well we started 16 years ago that must have been then that's fun and what's your music type I suppose like party and clubby just good party anthems anything from some disco stuff through to you know modern classics what people want to dance to and I sing along to I'll sing as well

49:38Sophie Ellis-Bextor: do you yeah that's brilliant did you do that at max's uh yeah because you sang didn't you and then you dj'd yes exactly that yeah brilliant well i'm gonna have to put you on my roster sophie now that you've reintroduced free for new year this year yeah definitely god you're gonna be

49:54Fran Cutler: busy this year oh please oh yes but i think probably a bit like you i'm really hardwired to say yes to work because i always worry they could go elsewhere so i think it's becomes a thing doesn't it where it keeps a little whip on your back of like must keep moving like you said

50:09Sophie Ellis-Bextor: about the hamster wheel yeah you've got to keep on that wheel you have haven't you yeah i actually recently met with a really famous brand and they are incredible but they've just gone a little bit too heritage and forgotten about and i had a meeting with them about bringing them back and i could just tell this new guy's taking over he's the one that brought me in and i could tell all the other team are all a bit like oh what's she why is she giving us new ideas why is she saying that they just get stuck but I think also one thing you've said that I think

50:40Fran Cutler: is a really underrated quality for um keeping going is to remember how much you love it it sounds really obvious but actually I think it's really easy to get a bit eye-rolly or complainy or to take it for granted because it becomes, it's almost cooler, isn't it, to be like, oh, whatever. They do a lot of that, don't they? Yeah, but I think it just happens. And it's quite encouraged sometimes. You've got to be grateful.

51:07Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Yeah, exactly. Because, as we know, during COVID, it all dried up. And we've all experienced what that was like. And God forbid, touch wood, it's never going to happen again.

51:19Fran Cutler: There is no way to do that.

51:19Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Yeah, I never would like anything like that to happen again. No. We've just got to really keep on, keep on going.

51:26Fran Cutler: Yeah, but also I was thinking, you know, I knew about you before we ever met because like you were so synonymous when I would, I mean, I was such a massive music fan. Because you were in Camden, weren't you? Yeah. And I'm from Houston. Yeah, okay, yeah. So that's where I lived when I first left Hive. That was my first place.

51:44Sophie Ellis-Bextor: And that was the Hive of, wasn't it? Oh, yeah. I was obsessed with all of it. Because Amy was always in the mixer. Yeah. And everything was going on. And Noel and Meg lived up in Delancey Street. That was like their first little flat. And my cleaner lived in that flat. So she cleaned for them and then she come to clean for me because then I got my first flat in Tufnel Park Road. So we were all in the same and going to Coco. Yeah. Exactly. What were you saying? Camden Palace. Yeah. Sticky floors and all. Yeah, let's not show our age about that. Coco.

52:17Fran Cutler: Yeah. So that's so mad. But then I was thinking, so the first thing I was thinking is what, you know, it is a survival thing I think this is a real survivor yeah definitely but secondly and I think again this is something that I've always thought of you and I mentioned it before we start recording but um sometimes you'll send out me an invite and um and at first I thought it was almost like a sort of round robin oh no it's not so every once in a while I'll reply saying thanks so much for thinking of me but I can't make it I love it when you do but you know you always reply

52:44Sophie Ellis-Bextor: back exactly and i think that's another thing that element it's sign that i choose you have to do an event like you're creating a museum right and you have to think about the people you'd like to come now as i said to you earlier one day you're going to say oh do you know what me and richard are so into this we're going to come so it's just you just do these things and you think oh well i'm going to invite them i would hate it so if someone invited me for two years and then stopped inviting me you know because it's nice to be in the loop and be thought of yeah you know there's only one one person i think out of all the people that i send invites to that's ever been nasty really anyone yeah disappointing it was a man obviously and he was very sarcastic so i just thought oh you know what i'm never going to talk to you again really but that's the thing isn't a lot of people who have long careers because he was very famous and i think he's not he's not famous now he's been cancelled but at the time he was very very famous and I think well that was karma yeah but then most people I think to keep going most people are nice actually there

53:53Fran Cutler: are a lot of nice people because it's like you can't really otherwise in this day and age you

53:57Sophie Ellis-Bextor: can't be horrible no that's another thing you sort of have to be nice you do have to be nice even if you go back and get the pillow and scream into it for an hour you know you can be on some zooms and people say the most ridiculous thing and I have to pinch Katie's leg and she likes going bright red next to me and I'm pinching her neck and I'm like that thinking did they just say that I can't believe it because so many people don't have a clue yeah it's so true do you think Mercy has

54:27Fran Cutler: inherited the sort of family trait of being good with people and reading people like that yeah

54:31Sophie Ellis-Bextor: she's much more polite than me um she's very polite and very social um but she's not a night owl going out all the time she doesn't really drink she's gen z no they don't really that gen z no not interested when we're on holiday i mean we were ready for two weeks we got drunk twice and going back in the day i'd be paralytic from 11 o 'clock in the morning till 11 o 'clock the next morning and every single day. You know, on New Year's Eve, I'd be really drunk. We had two drinks and went to bed. I just haven't got the flavour. We used to call it the flavour in our family. When you've got the flavour, you've got the flavour.

55:13Sophie Ellis-Bextor: You really fancy it. I just, I gave up red wine two years ago. And I don't know what it was. After stopping that, I still drink. But I just don't drink like that anymore. yeah it's just it's just funny yeah my mum who was obviously a publican she drank and drank she could drink a bottle of brandy my mum was a big big drinker and my dad and I got the projectile vomiting from her it's another reason why I stopped drinking because I'm a great projectile vomiter um and she used to do that all over herself anyway she won't like me to say that when she's coming up to 90 but she stopped yeah she hasn't drank for 30 years yeah never smoked or anything like that and she i said why did you stop because you loved it yeah she had just one day i didn't have the flavor anymore and that's exactly what happened to me wow my dad carried on i'm still a bit stuck on the projectile vomiting actually i'm trying to work out i mean i had projectile I've vomited behind every part of the Chilton.

56:17Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Thank God it's being rebuilt. But every chair in the Chilton I've been sick behind. I've had Sienna Miller holding my hair while I puke up. I mean, and she's really been kind and held my hair after many and many puke. Wow. But I'm very famous. I've done it all the way along with passport control in every bin, arriving in countries because I've got too drunk on the plane. So, yeah, it's a very famous trait of mine. You can ask my daughter. It's like a family thing. Really? Yeah. But since I give up the red wine, don't do it anymore. Thank God. So it did come in handy giving up the red wine. No more projectile vomiting.

56:58Fran Cutler: And I wish in every passport, you say passport, keep it in.

57:02Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Honestly, it was just, oh, it was so embarrassing.

57:05Fran Cutler: My God, Fran, your book is going to be so good. Yeah, I just want it to be funny.

57:09Sophie Ellis-Bextor: I just want it to be funny. you know and those sort of stories there's a lot of that the projectile vomiting wet myself and all that sort of stuff at the same time imagine what i was like when i was pregnant when i was pregnant i was doing that naturally yeah king so it's i must have something wrong in my stomach i must be allergic to something because i wasn't drinking but yeah since i stopped the red wine been peace peace must be an age thing because you know I'm nearly 45, 50

57:40Fran Cutler: wink wink

57:41Sophie Ellis-Bextor: say no more I say that to Mercy she gets so angry because we were watching the football on Saturday in the George the pub in Great Portland Street and this guy went are you sisters? I went oh yeah if one other person keeps saying that you know they're lying you know that they're lying I went oh don't say that she gets so pissed off I don't know she's probably busy being happy yeah exactly exactly but I do also believe that age you know you when I grew up the family parties were of all ages and that's what I love about my things is that everyone's very accepting of all ages being there they don't look down no like the youngsters are not looking down at older people being there and dancing no you know which is actually which The 20-year-olds are loving that the older lot are there.

58:35Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Or there's someone like really classic there. So it could be like Bobby Gillespie or Noel or Liam or someone like that. You know, they love that.

58:45Fran Cutler: Do you think having, because I was an only child until I was, well, eight on my mum's side and then up to like 19 or whatever, my dad's. So I had a lot of adult company. Yeah, she's the same. And I think it makes you grow up a little bit different actually.

58:59Sophie Ellis-Bextor: 100%. I think she's been the adult in the relation. Yeah, well, you learn how to hold your own a bit more. Very confident, very confident around people, very confident at dinners. And also, she's a master of physics from Imperial, so she's got a lot to talk about, which I don't understand. So to other people, you know, they're sort of drawn in, and she can have amazing conversations with people. But I can do the jokes. she you know she does books I do looks

59:34Fran Cutler: well cheers to both of you and I think that bears repeating she's got a master's in physics from Imperial is flipping impressive yeah quite impressive isn't it right yeah but also well done to you because you know I'm sure there's so many layers to that time when you roll back to when you know you realize you're having a baby yeah you find yourself on your own you're thinking your

59:56Sophie Ellis-Bextor: first thought is I've got to work twice as hard twice as hard twice as hard and you back in those days let's be honest you don't you didn't get the respect as a woman on your own there was no respect there because it wasn't woke people could say what they liked to you and also I still find it a little bit now not having a partner and a husband people do treat you sometimes a bit different being a single woman really yeah because they know you haven't got back up like a man that could maybe ring up and have a go say if I get not saying bullied or picked on but say if I'm in a group or someone might say something or have a go at you I've not got a husband standing behind me that can has got my back I have to stick up for myself yeah I can understand that's quite a modern thing because everyone would be married but me on my own you know fan on her own with the daughter they feel sometimes they can say what they like to you because what guy can I get to come and have a gut them back yeah so that's made me quite tough well I guess also you've got to have the resilience

1:01:00Fran Cutler: of water when you get home who do you share it with this is exactly what I mean that's why I've

1:01:06Sophie Ellis-Bextor: got a therapist that I talk to every week I mean it was my sister but I think she just had such enough of me you know she's got her own marriage in her own life and it was mercy for a while and And that was very, very, it wasn't cool to do that. I can't burden her with my problems. But I did do it for a while until I realised that, you know, it's just best to have a therapist that you can chat to. You can't put the burden.

1:01:29Fran Cutler: Yeah.

1:01:30Sophie Ellis-Bextor: And actually, she told me, being the grown-up that she is, it's that time you've got a therapist and told them things. And it worked. You find it really helpful. Yeah. Oh, my God. Life-changing, probably, actually. Life-changing. Absolutely life-changing. because you get taught to handle a situation that I'm quite fiery, that I would do the opposite to what they're telling me. And that didn't get me anywhere. And it just calms me down. Silence sometimes is a bit of a good one to take, a good aspect to be just a bit quiet because I can be leery. But when I reflect on that, that's only because I've always had to stick up for myself and fight for myself.

1:02:14Sophie Ellis-Bextor: So I know why I became that person. And I can see exactly why I progressed into that. But now I just have to take a little seat back. But single women out there with kids will know the same thing. You're fighting consistently for yourself and your baby. I mean, that's why I feel so sorry for these women that are trying to get flats for them and their kids and get their kids into good schools. It's like not only do you have to work and earn the money, you're constantly, you can't delegate that to your husband to go and do. You have to do that all on your own. Constantly, constantly, I want to get them into this school.

1:02:52Sophie Ellis-Bextor: I'm going to fight for this. I'm going to fight for that. It's a fight. Yeah. You know, and that can be very, very tiring as a woman. But thank God I've got a lot of energy. And it's sort of, I got through it.

1:03:05Fran Cutler: Yeah. You know, thank God. I really did. Well, I take off my invisible hat to you. Oh, thank you. That's very kind of you.

1:03:12Sophie Ellis-Bextor: No, I can see that much of you. There's a lot of girls out there going through the same thing. Yeah, they are.

1:03:15Fran Cutler: And I'm sure only people in that situation can truly get there.

1:03:19Sophie Ellis-Bextor: I respect them 100 % with what's going on. You know, these young girls, not young girls, but, you know, any age girls that have got kids and they're raising them on their own.

1:03:30Fran Cutler: Yeah.

1:03:30Sophie Ellis-Bextor: You know, it's bloody hard. You know, I do a lot of charity work for lots of different charities. And, you know, they're the ones that get a lot of my money.

1:03:40Fran Cutler: And it's also the stories that are untold a lot of the time. They're behind the doors. You don't know what's going on. You don't know when they've had the long day, the stressful thing, the altercations, and then picking themselves up and finding energy.

1:03:50Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Working and then bringing up kids and then fighting at nighttime to get what you want from maybe the council or your landlord or, you know, going to a food bank or the kids have got mental health problems. It's never just one thing. It's always, I tell you, when it rains, it bloody pours.

1:04:08Fran Cutler: Yeah.

1:04:08Sophie Ellis-Bextor: And that's the thing that we must understand. Even when someone's a bit gnarky with me, I sort of nowadays try and sit back and think, something's going on here. Something's going on. That's not what they usually be like. And then when you unwrap it all, yes, there is something going on.

1:04:27Fran Cutler: Yeah. Well, that's compassion, isn't it? Empathy and compassion. You don't have it so much when you're young.

1:04:33Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Exactly. I didn't really have that.

1:04:34Fran Cutler: You have to go through the fire sometimes to understand it.

1:04:37Sophie Ellis-Bextor: I've learned a lot about empathy and I found it, yeah, I wasn't very empathetic to people and I found it harder to be empathetic to strangers that would tell me something and I'd go, oh yeah, right. Okay. But now I'm actually finding it easier to be more like that, you know, to people. But it's these great podcasts that I listen to that I can get loads of information from as well.

1:05:03Fran Cutler: Yeah.

1:05:04Sophie Ellis-Bextor: You know, like yours, like, you know, I do listen to a few murder ones, which maybe I shouldn't do before I go to bed. Do you?

1:05:10Fran Cutler: I don't want to sleep to them. And I do too. So I start off with, do you ever listen to Case Files, the Australian guy with the very monotone voice?

1:05:17Sophie Ellis-Bextor: And about the mushroom, mushroom, mushroom tapes. What was she like? I know. Oh, she's given me so many ideas. Yeah, that one. So many ideas for foraging.

1:05:27Fran Cutler: Excuse me, why is your plate orange?

1:05:28Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Yes, or was it the grey one? Right. And then she said, oh, yes, I had diarrhoea on the way to the airport. Well, you didn't because you never mentioned that in the hospital.

1:05:37Fran Cutler: No.

1:05:38Sophie Ellis-Bextor: So she got life, didn't she? Yeah.

1:05:40Fran Cutler: I'm actually reading a book called The Mushroom Tapes at the moment.

1:05:43Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Is it on her? Yeah.

1:05:44Fran Cutler: Where'd you get the book?

1:05:45Sophie Ellis-Bextor: My mum just finished it and she lent it to me. Oh, will you text it to me? I shall. Because I want to read that. Oh, I'm definitely up for a bit of mushroom. I can read that at night. Your projectile vomiting would have come in handy. Yes, I would never have been poisoned. I would have got away with that. So you can't poison me, guys, if anyone's thinking of it. because I'll projectile vomit it out. There you go. It's got a value. There's that one and Lady Killers by Lucy Walsley, who I love. She's really good. So, yeah, and yours, obviously.

1:06:13Fran Cutler: It's quite funny, though, because I'll hear the guy, your Australian guy, talking about it. He sends you right off. And then he'll be talking about setting the scene, and then I'll fall asleep, and then I'll wake up and be like, the body was discovered. I can't mess to all the details.

1:06:25Sophie Ellis-Bextor: I wake up in the morning, and there's five episodes or six episodes, and my battery's run out. It's gone right through. It's been going on all night. But then I've had dreams about the deaths. Of course. Because they come into your dreams. So hilarious. I'm desperate to wash now heated rivalries. Yes, I've heard that's good. Yeah, I've just downloaded that. So that's on tonight. It's about sexy gay hockey players. Yeah, there we go. So I'm dying for a bit of that. I don't mind that in my dreams. So you can imagine what I'm going to think about during that episode. I'll stick with that. Yeah, I'll stick with that.

1:06:59Sophie Ellis-Bextor: That's going to be hilarious.

1:07:00Fran Cutler: Thank you so much. You're welcome. You're so welcome. I'm left with a good laugh, wisdom, and some recommendations on my TV watch. Yes, exactly.

1:07:08Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Some life lessons there. In all directions. Sexy dream in the night. Thank you.

1:07:23Fran Cutler: Oh, yeah, what a good chat. Come on, you can't say I don't give you variety. Sometimes we're talking about early motherhood and other times we're talking about partying and projectile vomiting, but it's all fun. And thank you so much for Fran. I knew she'd be a really brilliant chat and that it would be really insightful. And I just love the way that she's put all her values in amongst what she does for a living. Another example of how when you really care about the friends you make and trusting your instincts about good people to surround yourself with, that pays back dividends when you have a happy, balanced life in each chapter, right?

1:08:03Meanwhile, here am I, still wandering through New York.

1:08:08Fran Cutler: I can see lots of snow on the sides. Because it's quite warm now and the snow is melting, it's actually dropping on my head sometimes. So I'll be walking past the building and then you get a very big drop of cold sleet on your bonce. That's what happened as soon as I got the taxi. But, yeah, it's still quite a lot of fun. and that being said, I am very much looking forward to next week where I'm in my own bed every night. I mean, the travel has been wonderful. I'm not complaining, but it's time to have a little bit of an anchor now. I need a little bit of consistency. I want to organize myself.

1:08:40Fran Cutler: The pile of clothes I have waiting to be put away is embarrassing. So I just need to get on top of it all, really. I'm looking forward to it. In the meantime, I'm going to take in a little bit more of this beautiful city where I've got so many memories and next week I'll speak to you back from Blighty although if I've got my chronology right the one that the guest I will follow with next week is actually the first time we've recorded the podcast chat outside of the UK so how's that for a flip anyway lots of love to you whatever you're getting up to this week thank you to Claire Jones for producing to Richard my lovely husband for doing the edit thank you darling sorry the intro thank you to Ella Mae for the gorgeous artwork Thank you to the New York Sun for shining today.

1:09:27Fran Cutler: Thank you to you for lending me your ears. And thank you to Fran for being such a good guest. Keep your suggestions coming. You know I always read them all. Thank you, thank you. Lots of love. Bye.

1:09:57You're welcome.