Episode 180:Helen Dukes

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1:49Hello, I'm Safiyela Spexta, and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, aged between seven years old and nearly 22. So I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. I don't know, this is probably pretty risky. I'm going to give it a whirl.

2:26I'm speaking to you from Saturday morning it's just gone 9am the sun is shining and yep, you're right, you can hear the voices of young children two 10 year olds and a 7 year old to be exact having a very excitable morning at the end of a sleepover I don't know how long I've got before I get interrupted but I'm going to wing it I have had about 4 hours sleep but I'm feeling really good because last night was a great night, I didn't get to sleep it's about 2 but it's because we were celebrating the feeling my husband Richard's band and their London date they played a sold-out Shepherds Bush Empire last night which happens to be my favourite venue happens to be on my doorstep these are happy days but it was so glorious so this was a tour that they're currently doing they finish in about 10 days and it's all to celebrate the 20th anniversary of their first record 12 stops and home 20 yes but what's so sweet is that the album firstly clearly adored by so many people.

3:26The whole of Shepherd's Bush was just a sea of arms in the air and singing along to every single song. And secondly, I think there are a lot of people out there who feel like that album, I mean, obviously it's very close to home, but that album really soundtracked the time Richard and I first got together and had our first baby, Sunny, who's now 22 next month. So as a family, we were all there, arms in the air, like dancing along to everything. just absolutely such a glorious and happy, happy occasion. It's lots of really happy memories baked into that record. And yeah, I just felt really wholesome.

4:08I was there with Sonny, my mum, my sister, my brother, some friends, and then the rest of the band. It became like an extended family these days. So yeah, a really, really good time. And Richard's home at the moment, but he seems to go back on the road to Brayton to continue the tour. They've got another eight dates left and I'm actually considering going again because I loved it that much. So given that I've got these kids in the house and I probably haven't got very long, I'm going to quickly tell you, well not quickly, I'm going to take my time and I'm going to quickly move on to telling you about this week's guest who's a lady who's called Helen Dukes, although to me she is Helen Disco Kid because Disco Kid is her brand and I first came to know about them in lockdown when Helen got in touch actually and sent me a jumper from the range and Disco Kids as a brand has just grown and grown it started off in 2016 when Helen was making t-shirts for children given that she has two children herself she couldn't really find on the high street what she was looking for sort of characterful fun music music inspired t-shirts for kids uh helen was born in 1970 and grew up during the disco era and absolutely loves music she also dj'd in the 90s and still dj's occasionally now so you know big big music lover and music is a big part of her life so her love of music is interwoven through the designs that are on the disco kids t-shirts and sweatshirts but it's now broadened out into other clothing.

5:40I think she has trousers and skirts and she also does gifts and fun stuff. Check it out if you haven't seen it. Helen herself, so entrepreneur and DJ, she has two daughters, Anya who's 11 and Lottie who's 19. But there's more to the story. She's not just an entrepreneur, she also has intention behind her brand because there's a lot of fundraising that goes on with it, namely a charity called winston's wish which she found out about when she was navigating the heartbreaking sadness and trauma around finding out that when her partner aid who just sounds like the loveliest man you will hear helen talk about him he sounds absolutely incredible um a year after their daughter lotty was born they discovered that he had a very aggressive of terminal cancer so a very bleak prognosis and sure enough by the time Lottie was only three years old she lost her dad so that's a lot isn't it and during our conversation Helen played such a lovely picture of AIDS and the happy happy times they had together as a couple and his new parents and how she had to learn fast how how it feels to be a partner coping with a you know another half going through that and then preparing for the fact that she'll be raising their child without him so how she navigated that extraordinarily difficult time and how he continues to be part of her world and Lottie's world and indeed Helen's new partner and her second daughter Anya's world.

7:28These are the people that make us and the love continues. So yeah thank you so much to Helen. We've kept in touch since lockdown and then I think I think it might have actually even been Helen that said I would be really open to talking to you about this for the podcast which is a great honor to me because I really appreciate how special it is and how valuable and how poignant when you know people come and sit opposite me and we talk about things that mean so much to them and give me the privilege of an insight into their world and the things that have shaped how they go about their their lives with their motherhood and their work so a really beautiful conversation with a lot of lightness around the edges I mean Helen and I got on very well and have a lot of shared loves music yes clothes yes family yes but also it turns out knitwear because this is crazy I opened the door to Helen my front door we're both wearing the same cardigan and I don't mean variations on the theme I mean the exact same cardigan and Helen I can't speak for you I own tons of cardis but on that day I was like I want my really bright this beautiful bright bright bright pinky red it's a gorgeous color and Helen obviously loves it too I was like oh my goodness we're wearing the same cardigan so I really recommend it as a way to immediately bond with somebody you haven't met before if you just wear the exact same thing and it makes you both happy and you both rock it so thank you to Helen and let's leave it to her and I for this conversation and Helen's words because she really did such a brilliant job of taking us into her world and expressing all that mattered to her in this conversation that she wanted to convey so here we are on that lovely day

9:34it's so lovely to meet you oh good to meet you too i was um just trying to think when i first became when we first sort of like started chatting a little bit i think it must have been during lockdown yeah your disco kids i think i think i might have sent you a sweatshirt before then was it before yeah i think so the one with all the helston yeah that's right yeah Is that pre-lockdown? I'm pretty sure. Oh, God, no, no, because now I'm my memory. My logical brain. But it's still very much in use. But yes, I was very much engaged in lockdown. And thank you. Can I just say thank you on behalf of probably everyone just for cheering our Friday night.

10:04It was a tough time for me, especially because my dad died. And it kind of, yeah, it just livened our week up. So thank you. I saw that when I was going through Instagram and sort of like delving a little bit more into your story about your dad. that must have been such a lot and he was it covid it was covid related you know it was kind of a blessing because he'd been in a home with dementia he had vascular dementia for about I think it was three years and you know it was it was yeah it was kind of inevitable we wouldn't have seen him for that period my mom you know he would have been so confused why why why is people you know I don't know but I think we feel now it was a bit of a blessing uh but yeah but it was still hard because you know definitely that's my dad and I think uh you know you agree when somebody has dementia anyone that has any parents that have dementia will appreciate this is that you kind of you lose them when you first you know they start showing the signs and they sort of forget who you are or they they aren't the real person you know anymore so I think that's really well articulated and you're right I must feel almost like you lose them twice in some ways that's right yeah definitely um and also I was thinking you know while you're talking about your parents and that you know and how hard that must be I was looking at you and thinking I think we're kindred spirits actually because you've got your disco necklace on and your music is the answer with a big disco ball t-shirt and I think you and I probably have the same thing where um we take such a there's such a tonic to be found in the sort of happy place that our work can take us to and absolutely music and I so how long have you been running your Disco Kids brand yeah yes so we started in 2016 so 10 years this year Lottie was reminding me on the train actually that this whole 2016 trend that there's a lot to talk about and I should be doing it so I think our journey home will be right what happened in 2016 well I did I did a little photo thing uh from 2016 on my feed and I showed my 17 year old nearly 17 year old he said you're doing it wrong oh i get that all the time yeah so that's not how you're supposed to do that so maybe lottie can guide you from the outset oh she's all right yeah congratulations on 10 years i mean i i've had quite a lot of um female founded uh businesses on my podcast because i am so inspired by entrepreneurs and people who've gone for it uh how does helen of today versus the sort of new beginning 10 years ago how how has it changed your relationship with business and also you know yeah what do you think you could advise to the person starting now that will be oh my goodness well I think you've got to have a passion for what you're doing and I I've always worked in retail and I've kind of slogged my guts off to whatever the term is other people's businesses in my time I've really worked hard in every career I've done And I think doing it for myself is now, you know, it's for me, it's for the business.

13:06And I enjoy every minute of it. I do say Disco Kids is like my third child. I love it to death. And I also have days when it's like, oh, my God, you're so frustrating. But it is like my third child. And everything I do for that business, you know, it's going to be the end result is how it carries on. I love that we work with charities. and I think if you're starting you just I guess your question is yeah you just need to want to do it I suppose there's gonna be something yeah yeah and when you're feeling exactly you know because there will be a lot of it where you feel like you're pushing the boulder and you've got to really have that passion exactly and as much as I've worked in retail there's lots of the business that I didn't really understand or things that I didn't know and I religiously listen to books talking books podcasts on you know businesses and and things that I could sort of do better and so yeah I've kind of always had an interest in it and just tried to push myself which is hard sometimes because I sometimes I need somebody else to go and just get me going but yeah at the moment things are good and I enjoy every day I've got a great team and you know it's uh yeah it's really it's good at the moment well I would probably say as well part of the skill is when you get that team around you that they are the people that can help you get the motivation when you are exactly yeah so I think that's probably another element of you know what you've got to build around you totally enough momentum because that's such a key element but what was the impetus to go it alone then what was the starting point what were your dreams for when we first started so I think uh well previous to that my partner uh Chris who's Anya's dad uh Lottie's stepdad we started a business called no way back which was a men's uh brand and it was kind of dance music culture inspired designs he was the designer because he's a web designer graphic designer and i was the kind of you know the salesy marketing and uh and i i yeah i'd never thought i could run my own business and i think he gave me that uh you know encouragement to do it and and had all the techs i'm so crap with tech that he could do that side of it that i felt confident to do the other side come up with the design ideas as well and and it was going really well and then had anya uh and thought oh that must have been quite early on into the the founding of the business am i right uh so what no way back was uh see because if did you say she's nine uh she's nine now yeah business is 10 yeah i'm guessing that the baby must have been quite a part of it i think it was maternity leave yeah so on maternity leave we were doing the nowhere back side of things and then And when she sort of hit one, two, it was like, OK, let's we need some T-shirts for you.

15:44Let's get you as a little model. And I think my friend Kira had suggested, well, yeah, do some kids T-shirts. We did it separately. And then Disco Kids sort of took off. We had women that wanted the roller disco design on a adult sweatshirt. And then that kind of became more popular. And then, yeah, I kind of went the Disco Kids way and Chris carried on with Nowhere Back. and yeah the rest is sort of yeah where we are today and for people that aren't yet familiar with uh your your wares what what can they find when they search up disco kids okay so now i guess it's changed over the years we started with uh t-shirts obviously uh music inspired designs uh on t-shirts and sweatshirts as we've gone on we've kind of expanded the range i feel like it's if somebody's going to a festival they're going to need jewelry a bag and all the things that go with the yeah going to a festival we've got some sequin uh jackets coming this summer again and fans uh we've done some cool bags so i'm kind of getting to know my customer more every year and trying to do the products that they're gonna like i guess yeah and when you're saying all the sort of festival where that i don't know from where i'm standing it looks like that's just been exponential in terms of what people are looking for and how it's been integrated into the everyday but also festival culture is just a lot more prevalent and people going and getting into that aesthetic exactly so what do you think's been driving that do you think it's because those those club kids have grown up and they've got families i think yeah i feel like i do think we did this sort of uh you know who is our customer and there's you know you've got kirsty who's who's the kind of that we aspire to sort of send things to or that uh you know she's she's our kind of one customer then we've got sort of I don't know whether it's myself because you know I want to produce things that I would want to buy and then there's the sort of the the old kind of yeah which is me as well the old raver and the clubber that used to go clubbing uh that you know almost wants to be showing that they love music I think when when I go to festivals I always see one of our t-shirts and it's just such a kind of oh my god can I say I can have a photo and I go running over that must feel crazy it is brilliant yeah that's kind of what I wanted to do you know produce something that somebody wants to wear and sort of be proud of.

18:00So, yeah, it's hard coming up with the designs, but I feel this year I'm really, we've had a tough two years, but this year I've got loads of ideas and, yeah, lots of things happening this year. I guess you must need a lot of skills in pivoting as well because you've got to be, you're so sort of plugged into what's going on in every direction. Yeah, definitely. And so being able to navigate the twists and turns of small business life must be. Totally, yeah. I mean, even colours, you know, we've just started manufacturing, but trying to preempt future T-shirts, we're lucky in that up to now, and we still do, we have a local printer.

18:37So we have been buying the T-shirts blank from UK suppliers and then printing through him. So we've both grown together. He started about the same time and he was in his garage. It's so sweet. And now, you know, he just does anything for us. turns around t-shirt prints in 10 days so we can without having to order too many we're we're sort of you know not over producing and just keeping it sort of you know nice and in-house and supporting local and yeah but it is and that's quite I think that's a plus to the business that we can react quickly we're not looking at spring autumn winter right now we're just we can I'm still doing designs for this summer so that's nice though you're so reactive basically yeah you can really be responsive to what was going on and and what I want to know a bit more about your relationship with music because am I right you were DJing when you yeah young as well yeah do you still DJ now I've just started again actually well yeah it's it's weird I had to kind of almost next door have you oh amazing well I've brought your vinyl to sign

19:41brilliant uh yeah so that all started when I was a student in do you want to hear the whole story a student in Liverpool yeah so I I was buying records and and sort of seeing female DJs in the clubs that I was going to not many and most of the DJs were playing the records that I was buying I was thinking hang on I want to do this as well and left Liverpool dragging my feet because my mum had said come back you've got to get a proper job I wanted to become a DJ and I spent I think the next year earning every pay packet just went towards the first pair of decks and then I spent my 20s working at Next but then the weekends trying to get you know get a job in DJ and I did I got I got a residency at a club called Wobble in Birmingham and then Wobble that is a great name yeah first all-nighter in Birmingham and so played there every week but then I started getting had an agent Phil got me an agent and then I'd play all over the country up to Newcastle down to Brighton but some weeks I'd have to literally drive back to work on the Saturday next which is what I was and then go and DJ the next night so I was how you do it well as a 20 something it's fine but I could not do that now and then I'm sure we'll cover the whole thing that happened with with aid in a bit but then I I've sort of started again more recently literally in the last few years because I sold my decks uh after he died and I just thought I would never do it again and and then had a bit of a get my mojo back in I think it was 2013 a friend let me play on a boat in Croatia and with yeah I think I've actually done those gigs I've done a club night on a boat in Croatia so coming back and just having the best time and thinking oh god I do miss this and did a few gigs with vinyl and then the whole digital thing happened and I'm so crap with technology as anyone that knows me will tell you that I've had to literally learn how to not DJ but how to use the equipment again because memory sticks files download yeah I just sort of doesn't weigh as much no it's all in one little stick but so that's been a challenge but I kind of yeah I got to play camp festival the year after we saw you there so whatever year that was And then last year I played at a local festival called Mostly Jazz, which is in a local park and played before.

22:04It was Dave Lee, who's a bit of a hero of a DJ. So, yeah. What do you go under? What's your moniker when you're DJing? The Lovely Helen. The Lovely Helen. It was given to me. I've not named myself the Lovely Helen, just to put that out there. It was a mix mag was a sort of a magazine back in the 90s. I think it's stopped now but Dan Prince used to write the Club Country updates and there was loads of clubs in that day and it was Helen and then he called me and the lovely Helen and it kind of stuck I was given it and then I'm I think that's good and I'm picturing you're playing like club classics disco tunes, a bit of sort of disco edits and nothing too kind of never went down the trance route always quite sort of more house and Spiller was always in there back in the day and yeah just sort of deep house or soulful grooves and uh and but but now a bit of everything a bit of kind of might be thrown in or yeah so yeah just uh candy stand yeah that sounds good i mean i usually um so you've got two daughters you said nine and 19 yeah and i usually would say so what was happening when you had your first daughter but i do think it's relevant that we scroll back a little bit more because you mentioned aid yeah and i know he's informed so much of still what your life is now as you know you mentioned how your your business also works with charities and part of that is in testament to him as well yeah so could you tell me a little bit about AIDS yeah yeah so I met AIDS used to go to Wobble that's how we met we'd I'd finished DJing and we'd just have such a laugh behind the decks he was he was a friend for god so from sort of 93 or 4 till 99 uh which is when we got together I finally realized you are the funniest person and I absolutely adore you and we got together swinging around to shed seven in in our dining room disco down funnily enough that's actually my favorite yeah and mine which is one of the t-shirts as well but uh and yeah that was the start of our relationship we had lottie in 2006 and then uh it was yeah a year I'd started a new job at Ikea and he found a lump under his arm and in national health absolutely brilliant they moved so quickly I think about two weeks later he'd had his MRI and we got the news that it was stage four cancer and melanoma and I just didn't know what stage four was it's like is there a stage five or and obviously it's it's a terminal cancer so everything kind of changed from that that moment.

24:45in our lives yeah so I'm so sorry I can't even begin to imagine how that must have felt but if we before that so it sounds like you and I had such a lovely slow burn with your friendship in the 90s yeah and then it's I always think it's so romantic when people say that they then were like actually it's always been you you've been the person I go to with news the one I want to spend time with the one who makes me laugh um so you have you know what I get my maths 13 14 years building up to your first baby all through this lovely romance and lots of you know playing together building your life together um did you always want to be parents was it always on something you were hoping yeah yeah yeah I think uh sort of yeah we we'd partied and we'd done all that and I think you know we oh no so timeline is difficult but I actually asked him to marry me uh because it was a leap year so whatever I think 2004 that's cool I know on the uh the London Eye we went up on the London Eye and I had it all ready and the whole thing sort of clapped after I died oh what in front of the other people inside the pod yeah so that's adorable I'm pretty brave actually I know yeah I think I just wanted to get things moving but yeah and just show my undying love but uh did you go down on one knee then I don't think I did I think I just nudged him and went sorry we got the ring out I think it might even been a toy ring or something but no uh yeah and that was that was so that was 2004 and yeah we then we didn't even talk about marriage for years had Lottie 2006 uh and then we did get married but it was obviously after we had that news yeah yeah wow and I think because obviously once you you know the chemo starts the operations start I mean he had brain surgery he had something around his liver the melanoma had spread everywhere so they just tried to sort of get it and and take it away and then start the chemo again so it was potluck when that wedding would fall but I think he'd recently had some sort of even the kidney operation was about two weeks prior so I can remember at the end of the day he was kind of exhausted and we were like looking through cards and I think he fell asleep there was no uh sort of rump and sex on the head or anything no everything changes right um I just well I am a bit flawed because I just can't even begin to imagine the the trauma of being headed in one path and then finding out everything is not the same as it was the day before and the cruelty of that yeah and and also it must have been so hard for you both to get your heads around when you've got this little one year old and yeah you're making plans and looking forward and adjusting to new parent life I mean that first year is such a yeah oh exactly a lifestyle change you know from just like night and day isn't it so you're finding your feet as new parents and getting to know your new baba and and also someone you'd been with for so long and suddenly seeing them as a parent and then seeing you as a parent that's a big shift in a relationship too yeah yeah yeah yeah I hadn't really thought about that but yeah you're right to go from new parent to patient and and for you to take on the enormity of uh where do you put your own emotions and fears when it's your other half that's going through the treatment um what was the support like for you amazing amazing I mean firstly he was the perfect patient because he was he was he just he was a funny person anyone that knew him and even if they just met him it was like you'd known him for for years he just you know he's one of these adorable characters and so he made it very easy for me and he made people laugh even when they were the ones trying to care for him.

28:55You know, he was always probably thinking about everyone else. Didn't want to be a burden. But we'd moved out to the countryside, which was, you know, part of the, you know, in between his work and my work. So we weren't actually in Birmingham. But all our friends from Birmingham would come over on like rotation and bring little parcels. I mean, I'm a terrible cook. Ade was the sort of cook in the relationship. And, you know, just them bringing something, it was just amazing. And just having that support, even though they were so far away. But yeah, everyone, friends, family, sister, everyone was just brilliant.

29:28Really, really. Yeah. And I guess, well, firstly, I think it's an amazing thing. He sounds like he was an incredible guy, but also to support you with that humour, because I think when that happens, it gives permission to a lot of different feelings because there's so much going on. But being able to bring a bit of, well, either gallows humour or just lightness into something that is otherwise so serious. Exactly. I think normality. Yeah, I think that looking back, it's the normality you want. You don't want people going, oh, are you okay? You just want them to be normal with you. And that's really hard.

30:03It almost needs to be an unwritten rule for everyone in life. You know, just talk to the person and be normal. You know, I remember where I was working, people would sort of almost like not say anything to me, just walk past me in the corridor. And it was, you know, you want just to be able to carry on as normal. Yeah. So when you think back to sort of early years of Lottie, how is your brain dealing with those memories? Is it kind of, does it feel they're just like a big wash of different things that pop up? Yeah, a little bit. Knowing I was coming here and me and Lottie have been to London twice this week.

30:44So on the train, we've sort of talked about it. And I've kind of told, you know, I've said, oh, this is what I feel you have, you know, experienced. And she's been very good in saying, actually, mum, no, or I didn't know that about daddy. Or this is how what happened at school. And this is how I felt. And this is what, you know, and it was quite because I probably blocked a lot of it out. You know, you go through it and then you're on to the next stage. She's off to uni. That's what I'm dealing with now. But looking back and reflecting, you know, it was, yeah, a lot of the schooling could have been better and how she was, not for me to do better, but I think the school definitely.

31:26But prior to school, it was all about making memories for her. So I just went, you know, if it was the 70s, I'd have had my old Super 8 camera around every minute. I was literally filming her the whole time and taking pictures and trying to build up a memory for her because I was so conscious that, you know, she'd need to know her dad. She's three and my earliest memories were five, I think. I don't think I can think back. So, you know, and all he wanted was for her to remember him. So it was like my job was just to try and join them together as much as possible. Yeah, that's a lot, isn't it? I mean, I can't even imagine, really.

32:07Was it something you and I talked about? Or was it just a sort of given? Yeah, I think he found it quite hard. I was the one sort of, oh, we need to do this, this, this. You know, after looking onto Winston's Wish website and seeing the things you can do, some of those things he probably didn't want to do, like write a letter to her. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, it's really hard. I just, I made him do it. And I think she is appreciative of that. But I don't know, it's really hard for that person. I shouldn't have pushed, I shouldn't have, you know, maybe done that so hard, you know, stuck with the videos.

32:44And even him talking to camera, I think you can see when I'm filming him, it's, it's a different aid. It's a bit of a serious aid. It's not the fun one that I've just told you about. It's the kind of he's probably, you know, what do I do here? Well, how do I talk to my, my daughter? of 10 years in future uh yeah it's also abstract as well isn't it when they're you know obliviously bopping around being one two three and i think it's such a personal experience and uh we'll touch more on winston's wish in a minute because it's so wonderful the resources that are out there but ultimately there's lots of um universal truths that can surround a lot of these really big life moments but then there's also the things that are so only about the three of you in that room yeah and for example um and i'm i wouldn't know this is not a comparison to your experience in any way but my only thing i can think of in my own life is seeing my mom and stepdad navigate um his diagnosis from cancer where we knew it that that would be you know unless he'd been hit by a bus in the meantime that was going to be what happened to him yeah um how they navigated that and how they never spoke about the after and actually my stepdad we shut it down a bit he didn't want to talk about that yeah but I guess it's a very unique thing when you're also raising a small person and also knowing that their memories will not be the thing that they can rely on yeah because I mean I suppose it's it's a mixed a mixed emotion because on the one hand if she'd been a bit older there would be memories but then at the same time there's something about the fact that knowing she won't remember those bits that means that you're simultaneously thinking well there's there's things about now that I don't really want her to necessarily carry all the time but also I need to build something in for when she does need it yes yeah yeah and there's nothing that can show the very undulating path of grief more than a child because they will the grief will raise itself when you're not expecting it and it's all the future events yeah the first times the needing advice the you know obvious things like weddings yeah these things are awaiting they're dormant but they will awaken things absolutely yeah the oasis gig was that for us because he loved oasis she has you know become a massive sense of who this guy is i feel like i probably got on the dance floor with at some point come with you he's with us now I'm sure whenever there's sunshine and we realized that you know just that connection of music it's it's an an intangible thing but Ade loved Oasis she is listening to music that he loved and it's kind of like brings up that emotion doesn't it she heard she just said yesterday she heard a record and an oasis track and it's sort of it was him talking to it's almost like a sign and if it gives her that warmth then that's a good thing and music is such a you know big drawer of emotions anyway it's just you know we all love music in our family and it's just yeah it brings a lot of things together and and brings up emotions it's an incredible thing like that music i've always thought i mean i i've i've often you know remarked to people that it's amazing that when it comes to big life events a wedding a funeral it's often music that we've chosen as the the art form that would accompany that moment absolutely we can be moved by so many things but music is the is a shorthand to so much as well yeah and I suppose it's because it's a bit of an evergreen in that way you know if you hear you know the way something's produced or the way I hear a lyric hits you or a chord shift yeah it it can get you there again and again and again I couldn't listen to your Murder on the Dance Floor after hearing it in lockdown.

36:43It was almost like a different record for me. And if you played it now, I'd probably start crying. I don't know why, I think it reminds me of the Kitchen Discos, but in a fun way, but also that I was... All the heaviness of emotions. Yeah, well, I actually worried about that a little minute at the time. Am I forever encasing this in amber for a time that's so difficult for so many people? And for me, is that what I'm doing for my association? but um let's talk about winston's wish because there's a big part of your your life now and part of what the brand has done so much fundraising for yeah um for the uninitiated what is winston's wish and how does it help people okay so they're a child bereavement uh charity that we found uh it was actually through a friend from school who had been through the same thing as me her husband had been diagnosed with a terminal cancer and she said oh you know he try look at Winston's wish because there's a wealth of information on there that will help you and and there was just from everything to uh you know should she come to the funeral should she you know how do you say something how do you explain to a one two-year-old to a three-year-old at this point your dad's dying you know what what is death how do you say that they're ill you things like telling the child that they're ill you is not good because then they associate somebody somebody being ill with uh or if ill is mentioned with another person in the family it's like oh my god no that person's gonna die so just little things like that uh they suggested the memory box which is something that lottie still has where she would put anything and everything in there to uh you know remind her of her dad so there's a little pair of her first trainers that aided bought her little nightcares uh at the funeral we had and this i think was probably them as well they suggested having memory cards that we gave out to everyone and bearing in mind the funeral was just packed there was you know the outside in the the the surroundings and everyone that filled was given a card and loads of people filled them out and sort of put some memories about aid so she could then read when she was older and it's lovely because we got them out the other day when I did that post on Instagram and it just reminded me of a lot of the things about aid and friends that had said some lovely things so do you think sometimes some of these things have helped you as well then yeah yeah true yeah yeah and we don't it might not be that present in that way if we're not so consciously building something for yeah the kids yeah left behind we do we do talk about him a lot and I think that's that's quite personal to people AIDS family aren't so much a sort of talking about things whereas our family are totally open about everything so you can't push people but I do believe you know my relationship with Lottie is is strong because I think we do talk so much and everything is open and we do talk about aid we every year we we kind of remember him and we do something or we every time we hear a record that is you know his record then it just you know sparks a conversation or you know she she told me yesterday she hadn't realized what our wedding song was it came on traitors that was right it came on traitors and I said oh this was our wedding song and uh yeah i hadn't told her that or she didn't i probably told her back in the day but uh i can never say it la rituelle by sebastian tellier oh gorgeous yeah uh and then that's a classy choice here comes the sun was played at his funeral the nina simone uh version so that is always quite poignant we've got a design actually here comes the sun which was kind of you know that's why when you said when the sun's filming it's weird at school just yeah on on the sun thing and signs whenever lottie had a school event the sun would come beaming in like this to sort of and i just start well you well up anyway at school don't you and then you've got this extra but yeah sorry i digress i told you i'd go off on tangents no no listen it's all it's painting such a vivid picture but i'm also imagining you as um newly well there almost needs to be another term for it because i was going to say a newly single parent by default but you're not really that you're uh you're still a parent with him but he's just not there it's not quite the same thing and I'd imagine I'd imagine that comes with a pressure or maybe just a way of grieving where you would want to I feel I'd be the same I'd want to involve his name and his world around us but also I would feel sometimes a responsibility yeah to him because he did not choose to leave you exactly he did not want to leave you so you're building him into the present tense yeah but that's on you to make it so yeah because as she gets older she's not going to the children don't live like that they don't draw on something from their early years and say let's make this part of no it's not an instinct that comes with childhood no so that's on you to say oh your dad liked this or this is where daddy would have sat or actually we went to hit this restaurant before with that any of those things whatever it might be yeah and also we've got you know I met Chris years after you know I died and then Chris became a father figure to her as well so it's kind of that you've also got that mixed yes you know I really want Lottie to remember her dad but she also has another sort of father figure in her life that you kind of you know you're sort of trying to not you don't want to talk about him too much because you don't want that person to feel you know in the shadow of of aid but also you know that they're both respected uh well in that like how how was it for lottie when you know well when they shouldn't not too personal to her but it must have shifted the dynamic a lot to have a little sister come out of that yeah that's a happy thing yeah and they get on really well now but yeah that would have been hard and i think even just me getting together with another person I remember one incident I'm sure she won't mind or he won't mind me saying this but she squeezed some pink paint in his trainers that were at the back door I think that was a little sign to sort of say hang on tiny I want mummy for myself you know because after he died it was just me and her for a long time and having somebody else come into the equation the dynamics change yeah and she'd be protective of you too because whether they take it on and consciously or not um I think it's a lot to see and she would have seen you know you go through so many emotions how did you navigate that how did you navigate those those early stages of grief with a small person um I think I probably tried to hide it a lot I don't I didn't want to uh for her to see me I just yeah she was the most important thing to me and I did everything I was almost overly you know with winston's wish i'd sort of make sure i was i wanted to do everything right i wanted her to to grow up in the way that would give her confidence and and just it not to be uh affect her too much but i think at the back of my head i was always and i am i always would think is this because she lost her dad or is this because she is this type of person you know it's really hard when kids are navigating through their school lives and school in itself was was quite kind of hard for her because you're that person that has something different about you you know any kid with something different is you just feel you don't want to be different do you just want to be normal so not having her dad and we looked actually on the way up here because I knew there was some stats about how many bereaved kids there are in school and it's something like one in 29 have lost either a sibling or a parent, which is quite astounding, really.

44:24It is. But then she was that one in that class. And, you know, as she's gone to her, when she went to senior school, there was about three other people that she found that had lost a father actually in the same year, which is a bit strange, I know. So it kind of, you know, it does follow suit. And I guess also it's not something you can see with the naked eye. So you might not always know what these kids are growing up with and what their home life looks like. but thank you for looking that up actually I I mean that's I think it's hard as well like we want childhood to be so protected you know as as parents we're doing our best to sort of put soft padding over any corners yeah and if anything happens that takes them out of that you feel you just don't want too much seriousness to be surrounding those early years but it's absolutely unavoidable sometimes yeah and school you sort of throw them into school almost don't you without you have to rely on the the school and yeah the curriculum doesn't include teachers aren't sort of trained on how to deal with grief children that have lost parents and I think that showed with Lottie in the fact that she had some situations where I think she was reminding me on the train actually that she's had a I have to get this right because she is sort of like a supply teacher or somebody stood in when the other teacher was doing uh getting papers together or something and this teacher they were doing something on uh death was involved or there was a coffin in this video and I think obviously that's quite triggering for Lottie and she was she was crying this was about year four I think so she was nine and yeah obviously couldn't hold about the tears and this teacher had obviously lost her husband and she said uh to Lottie my my daughter doesn't cry all the time uh and you know you can imagine lottie's i mean she was nine i don't remember the conversation we would have had or even if she told me but about a week later and this this was the first year that i didn't go into the school and say can you make sure the teacher knows that lottie lost her dad you know four years in i thought it would be common knowledge that you know everyone would know and this teacher was new her form teacher and she called me in and Lottie she said oh I've just got this picture I don't know if you want to have a look and basically they'd been set the task of a good world and a bad world and this was the same teacher that said this to Lottie and I think the this is the anger coming out in Lottie I can only think looking back but bless Lottie she'd drawn on the good side it was like aid coming down from heaven and she was like looking up and then the the bad side was a coffin with him in it and of course to this teacher that knew nothing about Lottie's background, she was probably quite disturbed as to why she was drawing these things.

47:12But you can see from, you know, if that teacher hadn't, you know, got so, you know, you can't stop crying type of thing and had that empathy. I know, I know. And so different to how we are encouraged to think now about small people anyway. I'm really quite aghast actually. Exactly. To put a shame into emotions is an extraordinary piece. And I know there's people like Mark Lemon who has an account, I don't know if you're familiar with him, he's an account that deals with grief. He lost his dad when he was quite young and he does a lot with Winston's Wish as well. That's another reason with The Connection.

47:47And he's campaigned a lot to try and get grief covered in the curriculum. I think it might have not got through. or that's a very smart initiative though yeah and it will set everybody up in such good stead yeah because i do think you know when you were saying before when you first got aids diagnosis and people weren't even sure how to speak to you at that point i mean i think there's so much that we need to do just to encourage communication and it doesn't have to be heavy-handed it's just a a willingness to be open to having that chat if it's the right thing. Yeah, one little section in whatever the, I don't know, sex education could just be put on the end of there or something.

48:30You know, it's not going to take, what's it going to take just to pop that in there just on how to, yeah. Well, because also if we don't empower people in how to deal with the shadows in life, then actually they become so fearful of them or ashamed of thinking of them. I know that with one of mine, he was having really quite dark thoughts. And as an adult hearing some of the dreams, you're thinking, you know, heads on spikes and things. But I was like, the last thing I wanted was for him to think there's something wrong with me for having these thoughts. Because actually, there's loads of there's loads of darkness and they've they've experienced grief.

49:11And I didn't want anything to feel like it was taboo or to be sort of pushed out the way or distract yourself with something else. yeah but it's normal and that yeah yeah I think uh I think that's a really healthy and I think a lot of other cultures actually are probably leaps and bounds ahead of us with that kind of thing I actually love the Mexican approach with having a day where you have photos of loved ones and you know you yeah they have the day of the dead celebrations is all about having a day where you almost um open the door to that that other world and you actually talk about your ancestors and relatives but it's done as a celebration of their life I think that's really healthy but yeah definitely that's a whole other conversation but I was trying to think as well I think for you as well one thing that must have been or I would potentially find really difficult to navigate is decision making because I think when you're in a partnership with someone raising a child together you're making decisions all the time big decisions and micro decisions yeah and I think particularly as aid sounds like such a radiant positive person i'd imagine after he wasn't in my life i'd be i'd be thinking he would know what to do or what would he think yeah totally and also for the your daughter growing up she would have this very perfect idea of a parent where she never got to see him yeah being you know down or cross any of the realities of how we are yeah but she would see it in you yeah when you have you know when you're being you know it was funny funny because the decision making thing i i i've been thinking a lot about recently as a single parent that yeah it is all the decision that's what is the mental load on top of the mental load even becomes it's like yeah decision making is hard for any mum isn't it because there are so many things going on and what we're dealing with but yeah sometimes even just a decision is quite overwhelming and yeah you're right he when you're not in a partnership it's that is really difficult uh yeah I just I guess I have become very strong through that and then you know Chris and I aren't together anymore and just being on my own I think I've really and hitting 55 and probably post-media pause and all of that I think I've become you know the strongest I've ever been in my life kind of thing through all the stuff that you know has happened to me it does give you strength and if the worst happens then you can only kind of just be positive about what comes and try and just embrace everything even things like me asking to come on this podcast you know I wouldn't normally do that but sometimes you just think right I'm gonna try and yeah live my life and do the things that I really want to do and push myself I can see that in you and I think that's really um it's very inspiring I'm thinking about other people listening where they might be um going through something similar and two things occurred to me one I thought how did you navigate the emotion of anger anger because I think if it happened to me I think I'd also be pretty furious yeah furious at all the other people that aren't having to go through yeah such cruelty like that yeah no definitely I think yeah I think things like because we we did a lot of things together we had a lot of we had loads of mutual friends obviously the wobble community where there's a lot of people I met there and I still have you know good relationships and friends through and what the thing I from a personal point of view was that doing doing things as a family going on holiday together we went with my sister and and her her partner who funny enough was a friend they met at our wedding and got together so it's a little connection there but uh is missing out on gatherings and family things that where you do with other people and and yeah I guess that's from a uh sort of my point of view but yeah for Lottie also because she's not then with other families we've got my sister's kids are at the same age as my lottie and anya give or take a few years so that's really nice that they've got that sort of close family knit but uh yeah so yes for navigating that that sort of anger sorry yes i totally digress no i was just thinking is that through through support and keeping it keeping good people around you to kind of yeah involve and i don't know i suppose it's just something that is part of the stages isn't it yeah I think you just gotta take it's it's happened to me and this is this is how it is now and you just try and yeah do the do the things that are going to make make you happy and and yeah you know and also you are you aren't the only one there are other people out there that have gone through it as well and I imagine um did you find I mean that woman who mentioned Winston's gift actually to you at the school gates or whatever saying yeah happen to her so you remember you're totally that you're not alone yeah and then the other thing I wanted to ask is about now that we're well I suppose about 16 years on from when I died um how does how does grief change shape over those years uh I guess it like anything there's that analogy isn't there of a stone that you become I can't even remember it but you uh you You actually, time does heal, as you know, with your own grief.

54:37And you find your own way of kind of, you kind of put it in a box, don't you? And sort of try and forget about it a little bit and then bring it out when you're happy to do it and think about that person. Certain things can always trigger me. Like music, again, just totally gets me and floors me some days more than others. I find when I'm running as well, I kind of, I put certain music on, it reminds me of people. and yeah I just uh yeah did you think there are some days where it might be like I actually want to go into that mood and just let it all out and look at pictures I think I was looking at something the other day and I had the time to sort of absorb myself and just look to old photos and and stuff and I do that with my dad as well you know you just kind of want to you want to remember them don't you want to kind of it feels nice to bring those feelings yeah you don't want to time to go forward but then they're just left in the past you want to bring them along with you and just yeah and talk about them i i heard somebody it might have been yeah on i think it was on a podcast recently that at christmas they all bring something to you know the family event might be all going to that is reminds them of that person that died and i thought that was a lovely idea to sort of keep that memory alive and why you brought that thing and what it reminds you about the person that is no longer with us.

55:58That's so sweet. Yeah. We used to do, actually, every year on his birthday, it sort of tailed off a little bit, but the first year after he died, we did a festival called Aidstock. And we had, I DJed at that, actually, and had a big tent. It was quite a big, big, big event. And every year it got a little bit less. We did, then it became a lunch. But yeah, every year we did. That's actually incredible. I guess like flaxstock. Yeah, yeah. But ours was Aidstock. I always think that that's such an incredible testimony to that person that they, you know, for you and his relatives and friends to get together to remember him.

56:36You couldn't say a more gorgeous thing about the kind of person he must have been. Yeah. That that's that's the energy that surrounds their absence and getting together and just saying we want to just come together and celebrate and toast his life and all that he meant. Yeah. I think that's so powerful I love that and um I suppose it must be um I've been a bit of a a turning point now that Lutty's a grown-up technically I know they still seem level when they're 19 uh as a mother of 21 year old I know that feeling well but I think um you know that you can now have the you know the style of your relationship and also the conversations you can have surrounding it and even to be sat on the train you know coming here and and and talk about what do you remember of this and is that how you felt about that it's a funny feeling isn't it when they can really look back at childhood as a sort of it is a completed thing yeah and they're nearly the age when aid and i might have sort of met kind of thing how old were you when you met them well well i started at wobble at 20 i was 23 it's quite good i'm 1970 baby so it's really easy to remember but what year i'm 79 which is really clunky yeah so uh yeah so i would have been about 24 i think and she i know it's five years off but it's like just the fact that she's an adult and she's talking about going to leeds festival and so oh my god yeah it's really strange but i think even her she's quite sort of she doesn't go clubbing loads and she's not like the party animal that i was when i was her age yeah their generation are a bit different with that totally we were wild we were too wild paying the price I don't think it could have parented me oh dear yeah I'm sure we could have some stories maybe that could be a different podcast it could be somebody needs to do that don't they before it went on the gram or something it'd be all the things we're really glad didn't end up on on social media I mean they say that people don't have evidence I actually took a pic I used to take a camera virtually all the time so I've got some not yeah just when we We used to go back to somebody's house after Wobble.

58:45God, I bet they're brilliant photos. Yeah, they are. They are so good. They come out. They're the ones that Lottie maybe doesn't need to see. But yeah, there's a picture of Ade actually on a massive mattress. We were at some park in Smethwick or somewhere random. And there's just a picture of him in a sombrero. This is probably nine in the morning after a big night out. And he's just lying on this mattress, but it looks like a piece of toast. Classic photo of him. And when you came to be mother for the second time with your second daughter, did it feel significant seeing her hit the same ages that definitely yeah absolutely yeah very strange and and almost almost having that it was quite light as being a parent that I've got somebody with me and you know she's she was an easy baby as well you know very smiley and just I don't know their second children I think always are aren't they they're quite relaxed or you're relaxed so they they're relaxed too and it just seemed a lot easier uh because i but i was also very caught that was when lotty was probably hitting i think when she hit nine they and winston's wish pretty much i think said this that you almost hit another level of grief so it's kind of the hormones are raging and i think they she got really angry then you're talking about anger and i think that was what showed first with her when she hit nine and it was like why is this happening and and she had some more counseling at that point and I think it's just that why you know not understanding why her dad's gone and why me and so yeah quite a quite tricky with two and and and one having one situation and then of course Lottie's always got that well I haven't got my dad around and uh I think Anya now she's nine she's she's able to sort of commute compute everything that Lottie has been through a bit more I didn't really think about that but of course you've got these two daughters navigating such different emotions and then and you know um for for lottie you know going through those those stages turning double figures and teenagehood and sort of yeah you you you're so self-reflective on you've like all the things about you these are similar to my friends these are things that aren't similar these are things I really wish were different yeah um you know there's so many hormones racing around then anyway let alone if you've really got something pretty huge and different to a lot of your girlfriends no doubt to yeah to carry as well and I think I was the there's one other friend that had a boy her son a year ahead of me I think we were due to have I had a miscarriage before Lottie and I think we were due to have kids at the same time so I was only the second of our gang to have a child so you kind of you're sort of on your own aren't you when you you meet other mums but They're not your sort of the friends that you kind of know you really well.

1:01:37So that was always kind of, yeah, I'm on my own. But also a positive because those friends were able to come and support. I think it's very different when you're, if all your friends have kids, once you have kids, it kind of as much as, well, if you live near somebody you can support. But it's much harder to then sort childcare to go and support that person. So I was really lucky that they could all just zoom over to where we were living from Birmingham and bring things, you know, without the kind of added thing for them of having children that were teething or, you know, they were trying to potty train or anything like that.

1:02:12No, that's very true, actually. And I bet some of those friendships were so solidified by, you know, being by your side during that time. Yeah. And they all, you know, they all talk about AIDS still as well, which is lovely for Lottie too, because they've got stories. Yeah, and I think there is a comfort, isn't there, in that, I mean, when you talk about the festival, that sort of collective grief, like they meant the world to me, but they meant so much to so many other people. Yeah. And isn't it incredible how, you know, we can let in these emotions, we can let these people in and love in that way, so that when they are not there, you realise how open you've been and much of them you've been allowed to let in.

1:02:53Absolutely. There is a real power in that. I mean, it's hard to know. You never experience anything like loss. It's such a huge thing to carry. But it is the other half of love, isn't it? The grief is continuation of all of that. And I think, you know, thank you so much for painting such a picture of AIDS. and I'm wondering as well if the memory boxes and all that work that went into making him 360 for Lottie as she grows up did that influence as well for for your younger daughter how you would maybe I don't know want to put memories in for her yeah and how have you how have you made him part of her life too yeah I guess yeah she's because we've always spoken of him and I suppose and when she was old enough to understand we you know we explain and she she gets it now but I guess she's still she's nine she's 11 sorry so she's she's kind of can see Lottie in the effects and and it has on her and how she might speak about him but I guess yeah because they've they've had Chris in their lives together it might be quite I think she probably needs some talking therapy to sort of to to understand that even herself because it is quite hard for a you know 11 year old to to take on and understand so yeah and what I think is um I really I mean it's probably completely intentional but I didn't really think about it so I know I was gonna see you today but you started the disco kids when you know it was about making little t-shirts for little people but obviously it's also you it's you and aid being those disco kids yeah have you read that somewhere because that is I don't say that but disco yeah I am a child of the disco basically excuse me so disco kids had that sort of double connotation of yeah it was disco kids because it was kids tees but it was also really about me yeah and that's why we didn't change the name I sort of thought oh should we not be disco kids anymore but I think we've been we'd been going along enough that it was yeah it's just gonna stay as disco no I didn't I didn't read that but I was thinking about it and and thank you for bringing us into that world because I really feel like I got a real sense of aid but I'm also really wowed by you because honestly it's it's it's enough to build a brand and have it go for 10 years and have your own business in that way but to have also been dealing with so many things and navigating with your little girls is awesome so I bet they're super proud of you and um and I haven't even mentioned the fact that when I opened the door to you today we were wearing the same card but not just like a version of the same card again or from the same shop but absolutely i mean if we pick each other's up we'll be still wearing the same card again so that's a nice thing too brilliant thank you so much for talking no thank you i really appreciate it thank you stick around to have a go on the decks oh huge thank you to helen and what a special business she's built uh as a female founder but also all those women that work with her.

1:06:06And no wonder the business feels like her third child. I completely can understand that. Yeah, super, super grateful. It was lovely to be speaking to her. And how impressive, you know, running out in Brown for a decade, all while she's had so many things she's had to deal with. I'm absolutely, yeah, in awe. I'm in awe of you, Helen. Congratulations for all that you have built and how you've really made something so special out of times that have been so challenging. But, yeah, what a tribute to aid.

1:06:46Meanwhile, have they got quieter? No, they have got quieter. Thank you for bearing with me. I'm really sorry about the noise. I just had to seize it, really. I'm going to be on my own with the kids all weekend, so I suspect this is my reality, unless I try and wait up till the house is quiet tonight. but I actually think they're going to out they're going to be able to stay up past my bedtime because I've had about four hours sleep if that so when Richard gets up I'm actually going to sneak up and grab a coffee I think it's time and the weather is pretty still cold but today is beautiful the magnolia's out the blue sky looks good the sun's shining feeling peaceful and actually you know what if the sun is shining on this cold day and so i still need to wrap up i'm actually going to go and find the cardigan that um helen and i really like it's another good day for that card garden that card again and i'll be thinking of you guys and thinking of helen so thank you so much to helen jinks for talking to me this week thank you to claire jones for producing it and for being a good dance partner at the feeling gig last night that was fun wasn't it claire thank you to Richard Jones for editing a podcast but also playing bass so brilliantly with the feeling last night thank you darling I loved it and thank you to Ella Mae for the gorgeous and beautiful and joyful artwork oh my word I've just realized this is the last one in the series isn't it oh thank you so so much what a brilliant group of 10 guests again I mean whoever books these guests is doing a wonderful job that's me but honestly thank you to all the guests i adore these conversations as you know i am starting work next week with i have a couple two or three i think it is recordings with new guests for the next series which will be coming your way at the end of april but um yeah thank you so much keep your suggestions coming i have had more than ever actually in terms of people suggesting and even if uh they don't end up making the next series I promise you most people that get well actually everybody everybody gets suggested to me I check them out I start you know following their careers as soon as you just introduce me to some amazing people and then when it's serendipitous I will have them opposite me if they will be so willing but also you shape what the podcast is so every interaction you have with me matters even if you're just saying please don't record your introductions and your outros when you're I'm hosting the end of a sleepover.

1:09:22It's too noisy and we don't like that. Feedback, all feedback is welcome. Take care. Have an amazing little break until we speak again. Thank you for lending me your ears and I hope wherever you are, you're feeling good about things and life is peaceful. Please wish the same for me. Lots of love. Bye.

1:10:12We'll see you next time.

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