Episode 187: Lisa Oxenham

0:00Host unforgettable backyard barbecues with savings from Whole Foods Market. Get the good times going with made-in-house chicken or pork sausages and ready-to-cook kebabs for hassle-free flavor. Grab tasty flatbreads and their new balsamic chicken salad in the prepared foods department. Keep things fresh with organic red cherries, strawberries, and peaches at their peak. And stock up on bug sprays and sun care must-haves. Make your summer sizzle at Whole Foods Market. The pressure to have a summer worth posting about is real. So is financial stress, social exhaustion, and the anxiety that sneaks in right when things are supposed to feel good.

0:39Grow Therapy can help with that. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the U.S. offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash ACAST today to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST.

1:21Growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer. They tune in every week. They trust the host. And that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is you just haven't been introduced yet. We're ACAST, where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, We let you browse shows, see who's listening, and book host-read sponsorships or run your own ads all from one platform. Transparent pricing, real-time data, complete control.

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2:11Hello, I'm Sophia DeSpectre and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, aged between seven years old and nearly 22, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. hey um i'm feeling a little bit self-conscious and i'm trying to find a little quiet space because i'm recording this waiting for a flight and i just hope if people see me they think i'm just like leaving a note for a friend rather than recording an introduction to a podcast not there's anything wrong with that you know what i mean just don't want to seem like i don't know a bit of a brat so i'm keeping my voice like this and i hope that's not distracting I'm coming home from Copenhagen.

3:15Just did a festival here today. It's been very hot. I flew out here this morning and I'm going home tonight, so that's good. I'm looking forward to being back in my own bed. Looking forward to seeing my kids, actually. It's been quite a busy week. I've had a gig in south of France earlier in the week, and then last night I did a show in Hampton called Palace on the outskirts of London, which was really gorgeous. I mean, so pretty. also so many fun facts for the beginning of the show so i had lots of fun facts which i won't bore you with but i really enjoyed doing the research it's a good way for me to do my little geeking out i get quite nerdy about these details and uh yeah during the sunshine um more gigs on the way it's quite a lot of travel at the moment so i'm just trying to keep my head above water really because it's also end of term so there's lots of stuff with that we had sports day this week summer fair today uh parents even i've got a monday so you know just yeah living up to the title of the podcast essentially um my guest this week is a rare thing which is someone i'm actually friends with mostly i've i've got some incredible incredible friends but i've always been a bit wary of interviewing them for the podcast because it's quite an unusual dynamic to introduce into a friendship but with Lisa she has got a public side and also so what I mean is so she's familiar with being interviewed and doing things like that but also her story's really interesting and I was like I think this actually is worthwhile so Lisa Oxnham was a beauty editor at Marie Claire for over 20 years what she doesn't know about beauty is not worth an hour.

4:59She really knows her stuff. It covers all areas of beauty and wellness. And she has a 10-year-old daughter called Eliza. And she also has a little bubba called Wolfgang, who is adorable. He is, oh, he must be, how many months is he now? I think she said he's six months. He's a dinky tot, but he's super pooch. That's lovely. Actually, no, he's older than six months. I'm going to say it's eight months. He's that lovely stage where he's made of circles um so nice and chubby spent all his time crawling around on the floor very happy baby uh when lisa was pregnant with him she decided to give up her job at mary claire and go alone with a youtube channel and with instagram um community all focused on wellness so follow her if you want someone who really lives what they speak and looks really well on it so there's a few things that are remarkable Lisa is a single mum Lisa made the decision that she wanted to give her daughter a sibling and spent four years attempting to become pregnant with Wolfgang so there's a happy ending but it's a baby that she had to go through IVF to have and all of this happened resulting in the fact that she had her baby the same year she turned 50 now she's a brilliant advert for this she looks wonderful but she radiates happiness um you will hear her talk about the fact that she did feel like she had to keep her foot on the pedal the whole time and she's only recently allowed herself the kind of slight moment of putting the brakes on going okay i'm actually really tired this has been a lot but she feels empowered she feels really good and she feels fulfilled by the life that she's creating for herself and her babies so i'm so so grateful to her for talking to me and i'm sorry i'm talking in such a weird her voice but i do as i said a fair bit self-conscious in the airport about talking um about all this stuff but it is going to be such a gorgeous conversation um i have actually just checked my notes wolf playing is nine and a half months older and i I think that's still pretty accurate because I only recorded with Lisa last week.

7:19So it's a pretty recent one. Oh, definitely worth mentioning that while we were talking, Wolfgang was crawling around the floor. So producer Claire had to, she was basically on her hands and knees trying to stop Wolfgang from going through the like, have a drinks trolley in the sitting room. He was grabbing at that. He was under the table. I promise you, he was safe. he was super happy and he was yeah Claire was beaming looking after such a beautiful baby but yeah it did provide the odd distraction but actually I think we managed to hold it down and still have a really good conversation so thank you to Lisa for that and thank you to Claire for looking after Wolfgang so that we could sit and have a good conversation and every once in a while he'd like go under the table and I'd put them on my shoes on my feet he was very very sweet anyway enough muttering here's Lisa and I have a chat and I'll speak to you next time

8:18I have to say it's really nice having a baby in the house at the moment I'm enjoying that this house has had so many babies in it but not my own for a while now that my youngest is seven um but Wolfgang's such a beautiful baby Lisa he is absolutely gorgeous I love him so much. He's got such an amazing character. He's really strong. He's a really big, strong baby. It's nice having a strong one. He's got the strongest hands. It's amazing. So did you always want to be a mother? Really, really wanted to be a mum, yes. I remember one of my first memories, I think, was talking to a friend that lived down the road.

9:04And I remember saying, I want four children. And it really was a conscious thing. I grew up with a lot of cousins around me. We used to see them every week. There were 12 of us, I think, if not more. And I've got a brother and sister. And so there were children all around me. And I really felt like motherhood was my purpose. I always felt like that. and then yeah and then I just moved to London in my early 20s knew that I wanted to get into magazines and then two decades went by really quickly so yeah that was that was the thing and did the world of working in a magazine did it feel like it was conducive to motherhood or did you feel like you had to be kind of quite sort of careerist for that time or maybe just enjoying it and not thinking about it at all yeah no I am I was always really set on working for Marie Claire um I really loved the title it was very much talking about you know the world and women's rights and female empowerment and all of that side of things so it had the glamour but also you know it had that other side which was really sort of purpose-led and and conscious and I really wanted to be part of that um and also creatively Marie Claire was incredible you know the beauty team would do these incredible shoots all over the world and these lovely cover stories and fashion shoots so I always knew that when I knew that I wanted to get into magazines I knew that Marie Claire would be the place that I really wanted to stay and and build my career there um was it always beauty that aspect and it was always beauty yeah and I used to shoot covers um and stuff like that as well but it was it was beauty that I I really wanted to be a fashion stylist actually um and then I got into beauty PR and then my beauty journalism side came off the back of that yeah um and um i yeah i really had to work hard on my career because it's such a competitive um area yeah i can imagine that publishing and particularly what i was doing and so i really really focused focused on my career yeah yeah and when you talk about beauty at beginning yeah was it always the same world in terms of wellness as well or is that something that sort of evolved culturally yeah definitely it's definitely evolved and um beauty back then 20 years ago when I first started at Marie Claire um before that I worked for InStyle as beauty editor at InStyle and before that was at More magazine do you remember More magazine I remember it very well yeah which is incredible i bought a stack of them from a car boot sale when i was too young to be reading more magazine oh really i used to hide it inside smash hits oh really oh my god that is so funny yeah yeah i mean quite funny moment because there used to be a model that they'd feature in it quite a lot called colette for some reason her name and her face always really stayed with me and then my mum when we moved to the house we moved into when i was 11 she got they got new neighbors and she said it was a lady called colette and the first colette popped up there was that colette and it is that colette no way that's hilarious she'd often be like you know they have position of the fortnight yeah yeah yeah you work there yeah anyway um yeah it was a brilliant brilliant brilliant title it was so huge you know we sold half a million every fortnight it was such a brilliant title and i started there as a beauty editor um so that's how i got into beauty and um and i just i just loved it i was never really into beauty.

13:06I was more into fashion. So it was a lot of learning about, you know, what my audience, what our audience would want out of their beauty pages. But I really loved the sort of shoot side, the beauty shoot side. I really felt like I excelled in that sort of creative environment, working with amazing photographers and teams. And I also really loved the business side. So more commercially I would build you know I would help the advertising team a lot and partnerships and that sort of thing and I've always loved that side yeah but 25 years ago it was definitely more about hairstyles makeup um there was just so many sort of very crazy gimmicky um marketing so much marketing language during that time that people just were allowed to say there was there was a lot of things like you know this smell is going to make you thinner all of that type of thing at that time and it was definitely more about makeup and then I always believed in it's not just what you put on your skin it's about what you put inside your body and it's about how you feel about yourself and it's it was all about that sort of emotional health and well-being and how that related to beauty yeah and so that's sort of what I really loved talking about at Marie Claire um so with all that in mind when you get to the point where you um meet someone and have Eliza um how are you feeling at that point about this idea of this sort of idea you had of these four babies and what your life might look like did it all kind of feel like okay well you know if things have followed a different path and here we are and sort of quite instinctive.

14:59It was quite, I feel like it's quite tricky because I went through my 30s having the most incredible time with my career and I absolutely loved my job and I was traveling all over the world with all these big brands and I was shooting all over the world and it was just so exciting, There were so many opportunities and so much access to like, you know, incredible women and experts. And I was at the time had a serious relationship with somebody called Nick. And he was amazing. We had a great time, but we split up at the end of my 30s. and um it was then that I suddenly realized that oh my god I don't have children and I think I think this happened to quite a few people that I've spoken to as well is that you go through your 30s and not you don't understand the urgency of time around fertility and I you know speak to speak to so many experts and interview so many people all the time but fertility was never on my radar and um and I panicked and I was like oh my god what am I going to do and I you know dated and then I met um Eliza's dad and um and we had Eliza and it was amazing and she's so beautiful and it was just I I just love Eliza so so much um but at the time we were renovating a property in the Cotswolds and it was very stressful and we ended up sadly splitting up when she was quite little and it was then that I was sort of grieving in a way, obviously the relationship didn't work out and it was sad and I felt sad for Eliza that you know she didn't have that you know traditional the traditional parents um like a family setup but I was also grieving the fact that I hadn't that I only had one child and I always wanted to have you know four um and then I just I was just sort of trying to work out how I was going to still make try to make that happen um but at that stage that was my early 40s and then Covid happened all the clinics shut and I'd sort of felt like I'd yeah missed my opportunities but I don't give up easily with anything yes and if I want something then I will try and try and try to to make something happen so I'm sort of picturing this imagining that's like a hum right so you're you've you've got your beautiful daughter and it's your life is blossomed into this whole other shape you're in a new place new chapter that world of how you've been living in your 30s is like very different to this entering into your 40s and you're thinking i cannot turn down this sound in my head of is is there the possibility of of adding to our family and what would it look like for eliza to have a sibling yeah what would it look like for us to be a you know a bigger us yeah and so are you having is it quite is it like conversations you're having with people sort of seeking things out or i mean i mean you say you don't give up but you if it was me i can imagine myself going very kind of very sort of stringent on research start just looking around how does this work what anecdotally can i find out about other women in my situation what have they done what options do I have so were you quite sort of yeah although it's thinking of it um I there weren't I didn't I don't think I spoke to many people at all about it I I just sort of was obviously working for Marie Claire at the time I had Eliza I was still dealing with the renovation in strategy we had COVID at the time and um

19:29i the only thing that i could do really was talk to the clinics and um because it's it's actually really it's a difficult topic to research still yeah um when you say clinics is this just like a fertility clinic yeah and what what what greeted you when you went in there and having that first those first conversations it's it was all very normal so I I would just tell them what I wanted and it was just me and I would have to use a donor for sperm and it's not unusual to any of them so they're very matter of fact they're like okay you can do this this and this this is where you can get your donor from um and they explain the process and it's just I actually went to about just three different clinics in the end to find somewhere that you felt had the atmosphere that you felt felt right yeah although I did start IVF at one clinic um and I moved to another one and then from that one I did most of my IVF there and then I moved to the London women's clinic in the end um who actually london women's clinic are actually amazing and um it was very uh easy there i just found the other ones quite difficult to work with yeah because i mean in a way and i'm really aware this is all i want you to feel you know you are leading the charge with how with what you're telling me and when so i'm trying to be I was very sort of um be as sensitive around it as possible because I think some of this is this is all obviously very personal but also I know there'll be people listening that will be thinking this is absolutely what I want to explore maybe they haven't got any children yet or maybe they want to add to the family they have yeah and so within that space what was your support network like in your day-to-day life?

21:35You know, is this through like your friends and family or is it something you were keeping really quite close to your chest at that time? I think I was keeping it all close to my chest. I mean, I've got a really incredible group of friends who I absolutely love. And if it wasn't for them, I might not have done this. But also I, you know, just came out of this relationship with Eliza's dad and um and then yeah we had lockdown so it was actually really difficult but I knew that if I didn't look into this then then it wouldn't maybe happen so I I um I'm just thinking about you know also the people that are messaging me a lot on Instagram and what's going to be helpful for them as well and um and what I probably say was that yeah I just knew that I wanted to do it so I literally did it step by step yeah so contacting the clinics contacting um the sperm banks and um and just going through everything yeah just just just step by step um and just trust you have to put so much trust in the doctors and the experts yeah and you have to have so many tests and you have to have you know there's there's a lot that you have to do during IVF and so just for the chronology I mean the the lovely thing about our conversation is that we are starting with a happy ending that little bugger the happy ending is literally roaming free around the sitting room as we talk.

23:18But I think it, I'm not surprised you've had so many messages because you've been such a glorious advert, for want of a better word, for how radiant motherhood can look. And to see the pictures of you when you had your 50th birthday with this bubba, it just just the the goodness absolutely beams out of those pictures and I think it's just such a a wonderful thing really glorious and I imagine that there's just so many people out there that will be thinking they want to know everything so what are the questions where does it normally start when people get in touch with you what are they asking you and then we can also move on to how it's absolutely radically changed your life in terms of your working life and how you're structuring your world around your both your children now and yourself and also making time for yourself too and the life the bigness of your own life too yeah and yourself i mean there's a lot of people that are messaging me firstly saying that they really want to do the same there's a lot of people that yeah um maybe haven't had children yet or have had one had a relationship uh breakdown and then they want another one as a sibling um and they're scared about whether they can do it on their own that's like a really big thing and were you scared about do you know what I said to somebody the other day that I don't think I I mean I said in that Vogue piece that this is the most self-aware decision that I've ever made and of course it is but it is also it is hard it's hard to have two kids with a career and build your own build your business and you know um and work it is really hard but equally it's incredible and I cannot believe that I went through it all and did it I know do you must do you even now just feel like absolute pinch me do you almost feel like you're living in like the version of reality that ended up with the baby exactly but I also can't believe how long it took me and how long it took me and the strength that I had to have to get here like I actually can't believe I did it because we're talking about four years is that right yeah it was four years yeah that's meaning the sort of more practical aspect of I guess the actual intentional you know starting the process let alone the bit before that of all the five years five or six years really yeah um so there's you know there's a lot of people that have said they're scared and they're scared of going through and they're scared of doing it on their own.

26:17And they're scared of having a baby on their own afterwards as well. And yeah, I was scared, but because I was so set on the outcome, I just plowed through and had it going in the background. It became part of my day-to-day life, that that's what I was getting up for every morning. I was getting up to look after Eliza and do my work, but also I was getting up to plow on with this IVF situation. But I would also say that I feel so proud and I have so much confidence now in myself because I feel like I've done it. And I'm like, oh my God, if I can do that, then anyone can. And also, you know, I mean, it's so difficult.

27:12It's difficult emotionally. It's difficult financially. Incredibly difficult. And it's also difficult to have, you know, to find the time to do it and the energy to do this. Imagine as well aspects of it pretty lonely because you, I think there's enough about parenthood that can feel really isolating anyway, but you are having to be absolutely present for Eliza, keep pushing the wheel with your work projects, building the life around you, but also how to navigate your own emotions without that sounding board of the other person that would be possibly there, like also you know yeah sharing in the same drink this is something you're like you're like a warrior basically with your doing it on your own terms and being so intentional as you said about how you're treating your body how you're looking after yourself every every bit of it is sort of geared towards this this this journey yeah a better word yeah absolutely i mean that's the thing I mean that's why my friends are so important to me because they are with me 24 7 like I have a really amazing group of friends who I love so much and I speak to on the phone every single day like more than once um which is amazing and I just don't think I'd be able to get through it without them yeah um I mean they are so generous to me it's just they've got so much love for me and that's just incredible i literally feel emotional talking about it that can buoy up a lot can't it yeah and um you know i just

29:02i think doing ivf on your own is very very difficult um but you have a lot of amazing people around you as well like the doctors like the guy in the pharmacy on baker street who was just amazing the pharmacist there he was so incredible I'd go in and I'd be crying to him about you know something or another and uh he would give me a hug and he'd say this is what you need to do and he would give me personal advice how lovely this pharmacist yeah he was amazing shout out to him um and but you know I think it is a lonely process because you're doing at home on your own and you're injecting yourself with a huge needle in your bum so it's like even you can't even reach behind to do it so you know it's that sort of thing and and did you have an idea of if this doesn't work this is how long I'm gonna or you know this is when I'm gonna just or you just thinking I'm just gonna stay in the moment and for as long as I feel okay and I'm looking after myself I will just keep moving forward yeah I mean you do with IVF because you've invested so much time, effort, money into it and energy and your dreams and you have to stay focused and positive that it's going to happen because you sort of think in your mind, if you don't think that, then it's not going to happen.

30:25Why would you bother? It's like, if you're negative about it, then there's just, you know, it's a very, you put yourself into a really difficult place mentally. Yeah, I suppose, yeah, I can see that, but I suppose we're humans, aren't we? So whenever we're dealing with anything where the outcome is uncertain, it's hard not to try and prepare yourself for every eventuality. Yeah. Because that's how sometimes how we, through all your positivity, you're also dealing with, I can see you're also quite pragmatic and you're having to, you know, this is a process. Yeah. So I think that's a lot to think about too for yourself isn't it in the moment um yeah the pressure to have a summer worth posting about is real so is financial stress social exhaustion and the anxiety that sneaks in right when things are supposed to feel good grow therapy can help with that whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you not the other way around They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends.

31:43Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash ACAST today to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Host unforgettable backyard barbecues with savings from Whole Foods Market. Get the good times going with made-in-house chicken or pork sausages and ready-to-cook kebabs for hassle-free flavor. Grab tasty flatbreads and their new balsamic chicken salad in the prepared foods department.

32:28Keep things fresh with organic red cherries, strawberries, and peaches at their peak. And stock up on bug sprays and sun care must-haves. Make your summer sizzle at Whole Foods Market. Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer. They tune in every week. They trust the host. And that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is, you just haven't been introduced yet. We're Acast, where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, we let you browse shows, see who's listening, and book host-read sponsorships or run your own ads all from one platform.

33:10Transparent pricing, real-time data, complete control. Start advertising on podcasts by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

33:23Weirdly, I mean, I always just plowed through. There's a lot of ways that it can work nowadays, and there's a lot, you know, and I sort of did plow through, but weirdly, I think it was when I had just turned 49. I, um... oh no sorry it was when I when I just turned 48 I was beginning to sort of feel like it wasn't going to happen and weirdly it was the first time that I just thought actually it's okay it's it's okay you gave it your best shot and there's other things that you can do in your life you can meet somebody beautiful you can you know make the most of eliza and like i just i became this um i just felt like it's okay to let it go yeah yeah and then it worked so how did that feel when it worked um i mean i was just absolutely over the moon and i did the test with eliza actually i was gonna ask about her involvement with all of this and how where she was because obviously the two of you must be so incredibly close yeah we are very very very close actually very close um and she knew every step of the way like she's nine now she's almost 10 um but at the time you know I never injected in front of her and I kept a lot of the IVF away from her but she knew what I was doing and um and yeah I mean she's just learned so much about biology now it's amazing yeah and also I think it's special because children don't see things the way we they we do and they don't project into different versions of the future so she would probably have just thought okay and then when she's older if you know she'll only remember it as a sort of a thing that was happening alongside all the things she's discovering about her world and herself yeah you know because we don't when you're little you don't take on your parents emotions to that extent because you're you're seeing everything from your own perspective yeah yeah true um I mean I never told her when when it didn't work um so I might have a little cry but I'm just but at this stage after doing it for so long you just sort of well for me anyway I just had a little cry and then I'd move on and carry on it wasn't like I was absolutely distraught in a way which is quite a strange thing because it was just a part of what I was doing it was so long it happened it went on for so long yeah and I guess so she didn't feel that sort of you know she didn't feel I hopefully she didn't feel how upset I might have been because I never sort of was upset in front of her um but when it was positive when the test was positive she was over the moon and actually we had the stick and I obviously tried it and everything and we took it to my mum's house and Eliza passed it to my mum when my mum was talking and mum didn't know what it was she was just waving it around finishing off her conversation and I was like mum look at the stick that you're holding and she looked at it she screamed and we were like oh my god um so eliza remembers that and it was just really a funny moment and everything yeah wow and then i was you know um growing this bump and eliza was kissing it all the time and she would read to it every night which was really sweet there's also something really lovely about that story with your mum about this of three generations of the all the women as well you know exactly It must have felt like what a lucky baby Wolfgang is to be born into this, such a sort of strength in that.

37:20We have a very special relationship with my mum and she's just been incredible. And she has looked after Eliza a lot. She does a lot of the sort of pick up from school, take her to gym, you know, that sort of thing during the week. So I've been really lucky in that respect that we live really close by. and she's been a massive support and she knew about everything with the IVF and she's just been really amazing and understanding and she's always my mum has always said to me if you want something go and get it and I've always been like that apparently so she's yeah she's just been such a major support to all of us and she's like Eliza's second mum really yeah yeah and I think it sounds like for the yeah I know that she's someone I've heard you talk about before and you know you've talked spoken to me about your like that support system you have around you and how important that is yeah but also I think for you to be able to share that with her and for her to be able to be a sounding board and someone to kind of scoop you up when you need it as well and give you that nurture it's so important yeah exactly it is when we were approaching our meeting up today you sent me a very thoughtful I suppose a little map of what you wanted to cover in our conversation today one of the things I saw in there which I think makes total sense but I was a bit like oh yeah I hadn't even thought of that was talking about dating alongside it so what can you tell me about that and how that was involved in your life because obviously that's something you are still open to having as part of your world and actually would really like to share your life with someone I'm sure yeah absolutely I mean I really would love to have a relationship and I've always felt that way um I think it's been tricky for me because I live in Stroud and um it's uh it doesn't seem to be that um i don't know i don't it's quite difficult to socialize in the countryside that's the problem i live next to an amazing pub called the wall pack and have you been oh we've been there yeah yeah yeah yeah um which i absolutely love but dating is just it's just really non-existent and in fact you can't just hang out at the wall pack and see who turns up no it's uh it's really tricky it's and dating is a really difficult world yeah at the moment with dating apps and um I mean I know I've known a lot of people that have met on dating apps and they're really happy together which is amazing but it's it's quite rare that that happens nowadays it's very hard nobody goes out maybe it's just my age I don't know no I think from what I've heard anecdotally I feel like dating apps can be a place where you just get some really funny stories out of it, rather than like meeting someone where you're like, oh, this is really wonderful.

40:26I mean, I've had some ridiculous stories and my friends have had ridiculous stories as well. Like actually one guy said, it was on Raya, and he was like, aren't you pregnant? and it was when I was pregnant I had a bump on Instagram he looked at my Instagram and I said yeah and he said well let's meet up it's a story of nothing else and I was just like oh my god and um I had a lot of dates well I dated a lot actually during the time of doing IVF before I was pregnant because I also didn't think somebody would come in and swoop me up and say they want to have a child with me because I knew that that wasn't going to happen because you know I'd meet somebody I was older so it's I would have had to push through the relationship to let's have a baby stage really fast um and I knew that that probably wasn't going to happen um but I still dated because I still have needs I still wanted to be you know have intimacy or um or just have a bit of fun and yeah and that side of things um and you never know what that other person might have wanted yeah and I guess you know look it's always a different thing if you're dating as a as a single parent full stop let alone also going through a fertility journey at the same time I mean that yeah comes with its own complication but I think when you get to our stage in life everybody's got their own story going on and the fact that you're self-sufficient and have goals and you know a whole life you got planned would not it wouldn't be surprising for anybody but it's at the same time yeah it's something that would be a factor like if you're going to date me you date my my full life everything I bring with it so yeah exactly so I did tell the date um when we would meet that that was what was that was what I was doing um I probably shouldn't have been that honest because um I don't think I saw any of them more than that again no um I did date you know a couple of people and um more than once throughout the IVF and actually they were really fine about it all and they were really loving and kind yeah yeah um I had a couple of people say well actually you can use my sperm if you like um but they didn't want to date anymore um so it is it is very odd yeah that's a real mixed message i would say oh my god yeah it's very funny in there maybe exactly and i'd be like i don't want your sperm thank you for um suggesting it um very odd actually and i feel i do feel like it's uh it's difficult for men to commit at the moment for some reason um yeah but i suppose as well like look what um what amazingly sort of uh what i'm going to try and say if you're dating someone who's got such a full life but also such a intention of what they would like for their future i think that that can that can probably you know if people don't have this to share the same intention for themselves or maybe they're feeling a bit more woolly about their future that not everybody has such clarity of thought that they can match that.

44:05So I think it's just what happens to people when they're at different stages in their life or working out what they want. Yeah, well, that's a really big thing. Timing is everything. Exactly, timing. And talking about timing, since Wolfgang has been part of your world, it sounds like everything has shifted. so you left mary claire after 20 years and now everything you're doing is about embracing and bringing in your full 360 world into your work life too yeah so let's talk about where you found yourself with all of that and how everything's changed in every direction yeah it's been becoming a mum again i mean it's been incredible um i was so scared um like i've never found fear like it um leaving Marie Claire because you know I sort of felt like it was 20 years it was 2025 um it was a good place to stop and um I also was pregnant and I knew that I would have three months maternity leave and as a solo parent I um didn't have any financial support so I had to work out how I was going to make it work so that I could take longer off over maternity leave um so I left Marie Claire knowing that knowing the business that I wanted to set up I wanted to build a youtube channel i've been working for mary claire for so long that i'm talking about i've been talking about the same things that i really am very passionate about and really believe for so long so that's around sustainability in the beauty industry it's about emotional health and well-being and how that um integrates with beauty um i talk about um uh creativity and sort of purpose-led beauty and I've had that in my DNA for a long time being at Marie Claire because that's what I've always spoken about yeah but I can see that there's an area that um there's a bit of a gap when there there isn't this information out there for people that are creating awareness around um purpose-led topics in the beauty industry yeah so that's why I wanted to start the YouTube channel and I thought when I was pregnant it's a really good time to leave and build this for myself so that I can build the business before I gave birth and then take a little bit of time off and then have that business waiting for me to step into it and carry on during my maternity leave so it's a really complicated way of explaining that no no but it's funny I just no actually I'm really struck by the fact that you said that it's a really good time when you're pregnant to to move on from that and set up a new business I actually love the ambition of that because I think for some people that might be like quite a scary time but you must have just felt imbued with a certain kind of energy and focus and purpose exactly that makes sense and it's also so easy when I'm sat here you know to be thinking about you know intentional living when you're looking after your body you're thinking what's going into it you're basically wanting to make sure you're ready to get pregnant, to grow the baby, to be a strong, healthy mother for your children.

47:57It seems so natural when I'm talking to you, like, well, of course you work in the beauty industry, but actually the fact that that was always the thing you were doing, it's almost like the full scale of all the choices you've made throughout your adult life. it must have felt like all roads were almost leading to this point yeah exactly which is kind of crazy because all these strands you know you could have maybe you did end up being the fashion stylist um maybe you did end up staying in a different relationship with a different outcome but now that we're sat here and now with this beautiful bubble crawling around and you know nine-year-old eliza and your your your full life but such intentional living and i'm using that word a lot I know but I think it's because it really is so crucial I think to why it all feels so so woven together all these threads that um yeah it must just feel like you've hit this point where it's like you know there's that old adage of like life begins at 50 yeah it actually does feel like this chapter of like okay all this stuff is leading to now yeah exactly I weirdly I was on I've just come back from being in Lanzarote for the week.

49:09And because I've been so, so, like, gung-ho about my career and about my business and about looking after Wolfgang and Eliza and so, so busy and so, like, you know, focused when I was pregnant and then when I had him and then really busy building the business and it was the first time that I actually stopped. and I just literally just cried because I was just like oh my god I can't believe that I've just gone through all of that my life I mean I'm used to working really quickly I'm used to having a really fast-paced life because of being a journalist in a magazine that is just so so fast um so I'm used to working like that but it's I feel like through this last year and a half I've been suppressing a lot.

50:03And when I was in Lanzarote, I was like, I literally felt like this explosion, like a volcano in Lanzarote that I was just like, oh my God, I can't believe that I've just gone through all of that. And one thing that really came up was my 40s. And I was a bit like, oh how did I go through my 40s like that I just I feel like there was a lot going on

50:33and I've learned a lot from all of it so the first part was you know trying to set up my new life after a broken down relationship with Eliza and then there was COVID and then I mean I guess a lot of people feel this because of COVID um and then the second half was all about IVF and you know I just feel like that's a whole decade yeah and so I was sort of like releasing yeah that on holiday as much as I could looking after two kids by pool um and then but now I just sort of feel like a lot lighter and like it's okay to feel like I'm letting go that decade of like that was really hard um so do you feel like you've had a lot to carry in terms of proving to yourself and to lots of other people that not only could you go after this but also that you were going to be able to absolutely carry it no matter what because it could be easy for people to say, you know, I mean, people say stupid things all the time.

51:44Anyway, they're very tactless. And you know what it's like. I mean, I remember when I was pregnant with my first baby and I bumped into someone and I said, oh, any advice? And you went, get out while you can. No, you won't be able to leave the house in a bit. And you just never forget these things, do you? And then you're like, right, okay, pack that in my, put that in my rucksack. Yeah, I know. And so you're sort of scooping up these comments and you're thinking, I have got to just push on, show up for myself, show up for the kids, keep on, keep on. And it is a relentless mindset. And that's when I've got, you know, I remember when you messaged me, you said the one thing you're really feeling like you need to get really nailed now is the support network.

52:25Because I guess in the bigger picture, I know you've got your friends and your mother, but your daily thing, that punctuation mark of, as you said, I think you mentioned it to me, this sort of 6 p.m. kind of like, right? hand on your back, like, how was your day? You know, that bit. It's a lot. That is a lot. There's something that I'm not surprised you get on holiday and you're like, oh my word, I'm letting a decade out now. And also coping with circumstance change. And you say a breakup of a relationship and it's constantly like, right, okay, well, I'll scoop us up then and we'll make sure that there's food on the table and, you know, you're uniform ready for the morning.

53:01And it's a lot of things I think that um well it traditionally not always but traditionally falls to the mother to provide those things and to be quite unflagging and scooping up so that the little person in their life is just as unaware as possible and everything's kept as consistent and smooth exactly yeah exactly um so because i've written about this quite a lot in the press um i have had the odd troll and um they do talk about like you're so old you're going to be so tired uh you're never going to be able to look after your children because you're of your age you won't have energy and I have more energy now than I've ever had in my life I have more clarity I have more focus I have more confidence than I ever have and that's only a good thing to looking after kids um so the confidence is a lovely thing to celebrate yeah and do you think that comes from trusting yourself and from knowing yourself like you do now and from experience as well yeah both and I just also I also feel like so many people want to celebrate this amazing you know um journey and they they would want to do it too and I just feel like oh my god well I've done it and this is how you can do it you do wonder what motivates someone to write those comments anywhere I mean that what motivates them what is what is that about like what is going on in their world well exactly that feels like an appropriate thing to exactly but what's what I've found really incredible is that um you know I've left those comments on all of my posts and I just think look the world needs to see this and so many women have my back on this and they're like you know and they're saying the same they're like what motivated you to say that this is from you this isn't about her this is about you absolutely with trolls you know and it's just um and I feel confidence in that as well because it's like I'm allowed to do I'm allowed to have a baby whenever I want in my life and um and yeah and so is everybody else you can do you know you can you can do later motherhood whenever you want and I do think you can be a mother whenever you want absolutely and it's a lot more it seems to be a lot more prevalent as well we see so many examples of high-profile women in their 40s having babies it just feels like that that whole it's really shifted I don't know if it's because I'm in my 40s I'm more aware of it now but it just feels like there's a lot more of that that's being written about and and it's not with the the side on look anymore it's just a kind of it's not commented on in the same way certainly from where I'm sitting anyway yeah no I don't think it is I don't think the celebration is important too I think that's a lovely word yeah talk about celebration I think people as well can feel threatened by people who seem to be living their life in a way that's working for them well that that doesn't necessarily follow what they would call a a typical of tradition traditional trajectory people just find that unnerving and i don't know if it's because they felt like they weren't allowed to explore all their hopes and desires as they were younger so they've shut bits of themselves down i don't know it's just a very sad way to live i don't i don't understand the psychology of it I think people sometimes do just feel a bit threatened and want to knock spots off people where they seem to be listening to themselves and actually acting on what they're hearing matters to them.

56:53Yeah, yeah. I'm not, I think. I have to say as well, while we're talking, we've now got this absolutely cherubic bubba sleeping in your arms. I mean, look at him. Oh, my goodness. Look at his little mouth going, thinking he's still on the boob. It's very sweet. I do think there is a lot to be said for knowing what you want in life and going for it. And that's a really big, I think it was during COVID I put a vision board together. Have you ever done a vision board? No, I haven't. But I've thought about it because I hear people talk about it quite a lot. And I guess it's a way to give a bit of clarity.

57:37It is. Is it literally, did you have a sort of large bit of paint card and just start? yeah exactly I had a cork board and I just had a load of pictures and I printed them off and cut them all up and stuck them on this board and it was so I would sit in my kitchen desk and the board would be right behind the screen of my laptop so I'd always look at the board so it had a baby on that it had and this was like six years ago I think had a baby had a house near a lake it had um me filming um me filming in um africa or something in a little village um with a baby on my back and holding eliza's hand it had all of this stuff on that that i really you know saw where i want my future to go sort of thing and um it had a youtube channel, picture on there, it had filming on there, it had, you know, me at parliament, like fighting for causes that I really cared about, all of this stuff.

58:41And within a year, things started coming and started happening. And it was so incredible. And I would tell people about it all the time. And I'd be like, I can't believe that this is happening. But of course, it's like, I'm seeing all this stuff that I really want to do. Of course, I'm going to build my path towards it that's extreme it's just I cannot believe how I've made this stuff happen yes and it's so easy in a way because you just decide well I mean the hardest part is about deciding what you really want to do and that's what I need to do now is find out I was gonna say what's next then what's the corkboard um well that's the thing and I wonder your holiday was such a release because I think you put so much into this, you've almost got to now give yourself a chance to like, just let go of a lot of how focused you've been.

59:34Yeah. And all of that time and energy and intensity of thought, you know, and all the injections and the monitoring and it's a lot. Exactly. So like, yeah. Release. I need to give myself a proper break. And that's from everything, from the dating apps, from working so relentlessly. And that's when I really decided in Lanzarote that I was going to do. And that's what I need to do for myself because I literally felt like it was just too much. I mean, we've been quite sick this year, which is probably because I've been doing too much. I'm sure I've had COVID a couple of times and we also had the norovirus so on the way to Lanzarote Eliza was sick on me on the train and oh it's always on the way to the airport and all that it's disgusting like literally all over me and Wolfgang I was like oh my god we just sort of left the carriage um and uh I just feel like yeah now I could really just do with a break from everything and stop like maybe stop focusing so much now so that I can just sort of yeah just be just be and let things flow for a bit without forcing stuff and um because there's there's a there was a lot of that in my 40s yeah so um yeah and also just allow yourself to sit in the where the path led you like it's actually exactly you're there now like okay exactly and even with you know even with my youtube channel it's like i'm i'm excited just to let that flow and i've got like a team of people behind me now and you know that was a really big thing actually leaving mary claire was um not working in a team it was just me yeah um but actually i've created my own team and they're amazing and they're people that i love working with and it's just you know so it's just even with youtube now it's i love doing the work but it's not sort of um it's not you know going full speed at everything anything and everything all the time anymore yeah yeah yeah and I was thinking as well it must be amazing seeing Eliza as a big sister and how that's blossomed as well Eliza's incredible she's absolutely amazing you've known Eliza since she was a tiny baby and she's so cute and um she's just stepped into this sort of big sister role and she's she's gained confidence as well um it's like we've been yeah we've worked in we're in parallel with each other um and she absolutely adores wolfgang i've never seen anyone love anyone's like she's just so so sweet uh with him and she sort of picks him up carries him around she hates hearing him cry she won't let him cry she just you know she's she loves feeding him she loves bathing him she's just a really cute little mum it's really sweet it really makes me smile because it so reminds me of how I felt about my brother when he was born when I was eight and that was my first sibling and I was absolutely obsessed with Jack honestly it's just so cute that we work together now it's really sweet but it's like absolutely changed my life and yeah I just I was like that I would put him to bed I'd give him his bottle I'd bath him am I just yeah absolutely obsessed amazing you have a really good relationship with him and you like I don't think you know she's never once been jealous of him like you can just tell you can see it um she's just very yeah she wants to keep him very safe and yeah very happy he's a lucky bubba he is um yeah I mean I suppose one of the things you touched on actually is about how we need this honest conversation about motherhood and about how it's I suppose you know you've given so much of yourself to the pursuit of motherhood but also about making sure you've got room for yourself and I guess when you touched on the necessity the not luxury the necessity of support that falls under that banner too because having support is about part of giving yourself what you need so you're not just this I think sometimes with especially with motherhood when the children are young you can end up feeling a bit hollowed out at the end of it on days and when you're tired and you know you put your needs so far down the list so I think it's important I think you're right that having an honest conversation about about all of ourselves that we are and how all of that needs attention as well rather than just sort of being this sort of I've often felt like a bit of a husk sometimes yeah I mean it was really difficult when I had Eliza I remember thinking that I just lost myself and I I felt awful and I just I think it was a combination of lots of things we were renovating a house at the time so there was dust everywhere and I was constantly trying to hoover it up and you know and I just I just didn't feel like myself at all um my hair was so thick and dark and it's just like my hair was a really big thing it really changed the way I looked I felt and I felt um so this time around and actually it was around that time that I just got super healthy I really wanted to eat well sleep well um I gave up drinking alcohol at the time um just because even having a glass of wine made me feel awful in the morning um so at that time I sort of did all this stuff to change my life so that I felt better yeah like I felt like my mental health was better and I felt like I looked better and I felt just felt generally I had more energy um so this time around I had everything that I knew how I would feel better about myself so you've been conscious about making sure you prepared that for yourself exactly I prepare I over prepared um before he was born what did that what when you say over prepared what do you mean by that I just prepared everything his nursery the food I mean I was literally batch cooked stewed apples put them all in the freezer I was like I was literally trying to make everything easier for me so that when he was born I could just eat those stewed apples and not reach for like croissants and like pastries and um I just felt like I really knew what what made me feel good without sounding too twee do you think that means that your relationship with yourself is better as well I think so yeah definitely a hundred percent I think we often don't think to yeah to to think about our own nourishment in that way exactly I mean I mean, going through everything in my 40s, the good thing that came out of it was that I knew what made me feel good, mentally and emotionally and physically even.

1:06:41Yeah, and I think you might have said it in your Vogue article about how important it felt to recognise yourself looking back at yourself in the mirror as providing a touchstone to keeping a sense of who you are and your identity and feeling good. And that was a really big thing for me this time was about my identity, really, which obviously is really difficult when you're leaving a massive job after 20 years.

1:07:10It is very much about keeping your identity. That's really important to me. And that's what I have done. um in fact I'm even more I'm over the other side now um where I do feel like I yeah I really know myself and I know what makes me feel good and I know my values and you know I'm very aligned with everything I'm doing in my life which feels really odd but I'm just that feels great and I suppose it sounds like a very different way to enter your 50s from your 40s for example just to kind of have that sense of like that like preparing and thinking about yourself in that way yeah exactly so i feel like it's not really um you know when you're uh what's the word when you're um changing who you are um like reinvention it's not it's not really a reinvention for me it's more like this is me i'm going to go for it like a full speed yeah if you know what I mean um but I definitely think that you know I make sure that I really look after myself um however saying that it has been really difficult to find the support that I need um and it is very difficult to um yeah sort of find find the support in terms of people to help me look after wolfgang um in stroud um even though my mom is there and whenever i need her she's there which is incredible um but like on a day-to-day basis it's i find it quite difficult because i'm traveling to london i'm commuting a lot with him i'm commuting all the time with him um and going to meetings he's coming to meetings with me um you know I have a lot of events and he's in the next room so he's still really little he's you know nine and a half months and and also when I was in Lanzarote I was like actually I think I'm going to spend this time with him until he's one trying to be with him even more than I have been even though I've been with him all the time but um I just I just felt like I I just want to see him grow a bit more now and um and then work out the plan yeah and it's so precious and you know how the days slip by don't they really yeah exactly before you know you blink and they start like running about exactly exactly and so for anyone listening that's thinking about embarking on something similar what do you think would be a really helpful thing for them to know that you've learned along the way I just feel like I just want everybody to have the courage it's um it can feel so scary but once you feel like you've got the courage more courage you get more and more confident the more and more steps you take and um i just feel like it's if you feel like you want to do it do it no matter how old you are it's you will always give that child the most love it's just you know he was i've said this in all my features that he was so so wanted and um and i think that shows now you know and i just so i just feel like take take each day as it comes take each step as it comes but you will gain that confidence and that courage the more you get into it but just do it yeah it's hard to have anything other to add to that because it's just so sweet I'm so nice to have this conversation with him actually being in the room I'm really glad he's he's here I know he's snoozing but he's he's listening to it all as well I think being a wanted baby is the best kind of baby to be oh yeah exactly yeah oh thank you so much lisa oh thanks sophie thank you that's such a nice chat it is it's so sweet it feels so wholesome

1:11:16oh thank you so much lisa thank you for sharing your gorgeous story and for your generosity and wanting to spread the word for other women in your situation. I think that's definitely going to reach people and make people want to take the plunge. I mean, you've shown so much strength and obviously everybody will be fortunate enough to come home with the baby. But I do think it might encourage people to explore more of the what might be now that you've shared what can happen and and the positivity of the outcome not just having a baby but how it's given you confidence and yourself and your abilities and your strength all really valid stuff um I'm now speaking at normal volume unlike the beginning of the podcast because I'm back in London town it's Sunday it's Father's Day and uh yeah I'm walking to grab a couple of bits because Richard's folks are coming up today.

1:12:23We're going to cook them a feast. And it's a very hot day in London town. Bloody hell. It's already scorching. Thank you so much to Lisa for talking to me this week. Thank you to Claire Jones for such lovely, not only production actually, but also shout out for your babysitting skills as well. She's very good at keeping that little Bubba Wolfgang happy, crawling around while Lisa and I chatted. Thank you to Ella May for the artwork, to Richard for doing the editing. Thank you, darling. Happy Father's Day. And thank you to you for lending me your ears. Whatever you're up to, take care. If you're in the UK, be extra safe this week.

1:13:04It's going to be incredibly hot. I think it's going to get up to like 38, 39 degrees. So look after yourselves. I am here, there and everywhere this week. What have I got on? I've got a gig in the south of France, two festivals in the Netherlands, and something at the school, and then something, a private party on Saturday night in the UK. And then on Sunday, I rest a day of rest for the Ellis Bexley Jones household. Yes, whatever you're up to, lots of love, and I'll see you next week with another glorious guest. Take care.

1:13:51Thank you.

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