Episode 191: Caroline Hirons

0:00Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

0:37You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. When you're running a growing business, the right systems can unlock your full sales potential and make fulfilling every order effortless.

1:23Switch to ShipStation before peak season so you're prepped and ready before the rush hits. ShipStation connects Shopify, Amazon, TikTok Shop, and over 200 more marketplaces with one platform that does it all. You can manage orders, sync inventory, track returns, all automatically. Everything your operation needs, all in one place. Upgrade your shipping operations to stress-proof your biggest sales days and capture every bit of potential revenue. Go to ShipStation.com and use code AUDIO and get 30 days free. Hello, I'm Monica Reinagle, host of the Nutrition Diva podcast. Summer is here, and with it, the hot and sticky weather.

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2:30Hello, I'm Sophia DeSpexter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, aged between seven years old and nearly 22, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates.

3:05Well, hello. How are you doing? This is exciting. new series of the podcast which will take me all the way up to episode 200. I might get a pack of party poppers to celebrate and how have you been? I know it's been a little bit of a longer break it's because my summer was so happily busy so I decided just to pause and I started recording new podcast episodes when I got back so that meant that uh yeah September rolled around and it was time to hit the ground running. And yeah, so I've got some podcasts recorded for you now. So I'm ready to start sharing them. And I hope you had an amazing summer.

3:49I hope if amazing is a bit of a high bar, then I hope it was peaceful. I am not speaking to you from somewhere particularly peaceful. I'm speaking to you from Sao Paulo Airport. I'm just finishing up my final long haul trip of the year as it stands, which I have to say, it's been great to be back in Brazil. I haven't been here for yonks, and that's been really cool, and great to meet some new people, and hopefully we'll be able to come back here with my band. But also, I'm looking forward to being at home, and after this, I'm not away for any big chunks all the way until next year, unless something changes.

4:26So I'm feeling pretty chuffed about that. Hola. Oh, yeah. Okay, thank you. Sorry, someone's asking if I want to buy something. I'm okay, thank you. I'm talking. talking to my podcast person um yeah anyway sorry about the erroneous sound I'm actually doing a bit of guilt looking because I have bought things for all my children just little things except for one so I'm just trying to find something for that one child uh and that's slightly trying to suppress the anxiety of maybe I won't find something you know what it's a bit busy in here, innit? Anyway, yes, podcast. So kicking off the new series with such a fantastic guest and someone I had on my wishlist for a little while actually, is Caroline Hirons.

5:16Caroline, you may know her as a bit of a skincare guru. She really does know her stuff. She's super knowledgeable about skin and I have I've seen a few books in my time about skin but honestly her new book is one I'm going to keep hold of because it's got so much information for even someone like me who is 47 and has always been a little bit laissez-faire when it comes to skincare and what does what it really broke things down in a way that felt um packed full of information without kind of making me feel like I was supposed to have been doing things that I haven't been so I appreciated that and she also has a skincare range called Skin Rocks so she's an entrepreneur she's a successful woman she's very driven she's a mother of four she is also a grandmother of threes two at primary school one baby and it was lovely to talk to her about her relationship with work her relationship with building her business and how steadily she's done it I think I said it in my chat actually i found her career path very pleasing because everything just seemed kind of quite logical and steady so nothing had been rushed really took her time learning what she was doing before she embarked on her own skincare range and um it means that the foundations of what she's up to are very strong and actually uh as someone who gets um my skin can be a little bit funny with skincare sometimes if anything's a bit too heavy my skin doesn't like it but actually her products and my skin seem to sit pretty well together and she has not paid me to say that i'm just sharing sharing that feeling so anyway this is a lovely chat about yeah entrepreneurism skin um and the absolute joys of well parenting kids who are now adults so two in their 30s two in their 20s and the constant connection that she has with them but also the absolute magic of grandmotherhood, which I must admit I'm already looking forward to.

7:19I don't know if it's anywhere on my horizon just yet, but I'm really looking forward to being a grandma one day. Anyway, I'm wittering on because I'm just strolling with you through this airport. So let's have a listen to Caroline. Thank you so much to her for coming and being the first guest of the series. And also you're going to sometimes hear a little laugh that it's not me and it's not Caroline, it is Liv, of Caroline's assistant who sat in with us. And it was actually very cute because, you know, I like making people laugh and I think Caroline does too. So whenever we made a joke and got Liv laughing, even though I knew it would be an unusual occurrence of a third voice in our podcast, it was actually quite satisfying.

7:56So anyway, I'll see you on the other side and hopefully I'll be a little bit nearer boarding my plane so I can come home to my babies. All right, speaking of.

8:12firstly i'm thrilled you came and so is my skin because a little bit like when you're about to see the hygienist um i've given it extra attention my skin's like what this is usually so yesterday doing all the stuff this morning doing all the stuff oh for god's sake just to do my very best because i was like caroline's coming and i appreciate that well there was no need but thank you no it's so lovely and i've been itching to speak to you about so many things i want to start with your beautiful book which is so brilliant isn't it pretty it's great and it's lovely and dense there's so much information it's really clear it's really well broken down I love even the things with the hand showing how much of the product to use yeah um I tried it's wonderful what do you love so much about what you do I hate writing books great place to start I hate writing books.

9:04It's torture for me with my ADHD. I absolutely hate it. This is my favorite book, though. I love the colors. I spent so much time because obviously when it's book number four, with the exception of the teenage book, which is obviously different, the science doesn't change, like key bits of the science don't change. So some pages will be very familiar from the first book, but that's because I have to cover it all for someone who's buying this for the first time. But everything else is new, new chapters, new chapters on skin and menopause and GLP-1 and cancer treatment and hundreds I mean hundreds of product recommendations which is what a lot of people buy it for right and they've all been redone because some of the brands I recommended back in the day like think of Ren gone yeah what a tragedy so I I love this book I hate the process and because the success of the books it's really bad isn't it because people I know that there are people out there who would kill to be a best-selling author three times over and I don't take it for granted but I definitely don't appreciate it the way that someone who would crave to be an author I imagine with you you know with your career if you meet someone and they've always wanted to be a singer and you're like I'm not singing today I'm tired I'm a mum and you know and they're just like wow I wish I could have that life you know but people will say oh my god do you love writing and I go no I hate it well maybe as you said it's probably to do with your way of processing as well because if you're if you find it arduous just the idea of taking information out of your head and sort of downloading it into this format.

10:31If that's not how you would consume your information, then that's really hard to get in the headspace. But the irony is I love a good book. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, I love a good book and I'm always reading. I've always got my head down. And I think for me, the problem is an empty page. I'm not a writer in that way. So I like to say I'm not a writer. I'm an author. I can write, but I literally sort of gained success, if you like, from writing the way I speak. before dictaphones, I would just be like, well, I would do this, but I wouldn't do that. Do you know what I mean? To the point where, do you know what I mean?

11:05Spelt J-A, do you know what I mean? Is on the wall in our office because I'd be laughing and go, I mean, do you know what I mean? Because I knew I'd made the point, you know, I'd be like, oh yeah, but you know, like, you know, do you know what I mean? Very West London, you know? So I, I have to sit down with like a template, almost a skeleton and build out from that. That's how I do it. Okay. Yeah. So that, and also there's a lot of information in here. It's a lot of information. That's what it's like in my actual brain. But I think actually you're right about the tone that you have when you're giving advice and how you've put it onto the page.

11:38You're right. It comes from you. I can hear you in my head as I read what you're writing. So you've written, I should say. Yeah, no, you have to do it like that because I have such a distinctive tone of voice. I know this about myself now. In the early days, I didn't realise that was a thing, but now I know this about myself. and so where I had help so like the cancer section obviously I go to the experts yeah I'm not a doctor I'm not an oncologist so when they write it's clearly someone else it's very professional it's very you know it's as you would expect from the source of course and get it from the source so you know my spin on it is look if it ain't broke don't fix it like I can talk like that they can't so it's yeah it's very me and I think this is my favorite it's they've also slightly changed the shape from the previous books which has made it a bit stockier and I really love the shape and the style and it's so hard these days to get as it's I think books these days that look like this are similar to vinyl everyone wants it but it's so expensive to do yeah so the only the only way you really get a book like this these days is usually cookbooks and even then it's got to be a Jamie Oliver scenario yeah because it costs so much money to do a full color hardback with color and photography is the most expensive format for a book as my publisher is always telling me but it wouldn't work another way and I wouldn't do it if there was no pictures because that is with my ADHD that's also how I take in information yeah is visually so it had to be me all over yeah well it is it's brilliant honestly I think it's wonderful and I was gaining so much while I was reading through it and I really like the sort of hand in your back feel of someone just being like look let's boil it down to this so that you don't get overwhelmed because there is a lot about skin that can be really overwhelming i mean you must have seen so many shifts and changes since you started working in this field yeah it's just relentless but ultimately you know people just want the same thing they just want to feel good about themselves ultimately people just want to look in the mirror and be comfortable that's what it comes down to so my job i see it is just i don't want everyone looking like a surprise tambourine you know everyone just needs to be comfortable in their own skin and if I can help them do that oh yes okay yes if I can if I can help someone do that then that job done and what I found really interesting about your career which you've very much built alongside motherhood I mean you're a mum already when you embarked on what become now your whole world with that yeah is is how it's very um pleasing to watch because it really is sort of foundation layer by foundation layer and i wonder how that's worked alongside your clear work ethic ambition drive to keep such momentum but actually never rush any of the stages because everything looks very intentional and very you've always got a wealth that's been driven from each chapter of each part of your career and I think we're very used to looking at things and it being like oh my god you're at this point and you're you know 32 or something but there's so I think that's maybe part of what is so appealing is it's built on these layers of like I've had all the facials I've worked inside all these brands I know how this is all built up so how have you have you managed that your your engine level um I don't think I ever sit still literally figuratively metaphysically like I just my brain is always on and I do have to decompress I do have to lie on the sofa and put SVU on and just be like and not speak not be spoken to you know that's how I put petrol in the tank but the layer upon layer is exactly how it's done and it's not that it's even intentional because I think I'm actually more um because I think I'm more ADD than ADHD because I never got the, I got the diagnosis, but I didn't really score high in the high practice because I'm very good at chilling.

15:36But my brain isn't. And am I right this diagnosis came in your adult life? Yeah, when I was writing the first book, because I really thought I know what I'll do because my daughter was diagnosed first. She had an excellent teacher called Mrs. Hiddersay. Shout her out because she's still in her life. Good teachers, man. You've got to hold on to them with both hands. And they become a team around you now. Yeah, and she's still one of Ava's mentors. you know Ava's doing her yoga training and uh she messaged Miss Hithersay and said I mean we call we'll still call her Miss Hithersay you know it's a teacher you call her by their name don't you can't do the full respect no you just can't and she said Miss I need help I'm still you know Miss I'm doing this and she said okay this is how you learn your brain can't take in more than 45 minutes so you do 45 minutes I mean she's still getting advice from a teacher and she's 24 years old and so when Miss Hithersay said I think Ava has ADHD and if you get her tested she'll get longer in her exams I was offended I was like there's nothing wrong with my child don't be ridiculous I mean of course she gets it from me of course she does all of our kids have ADHD this is a really familiar tale as well that people think not suddenly how dare you and also like it's a negative because when we did the test so the teacher does a quiz the child does a quiz and the parents do a quiz and we did the quiz and I'm looking at it going oh god this is me every single question there was like it was like perimenopause you know there's like 38 symptoms and I had 32.

16:51And I was like, wow, this is me. She gets it for me. Time to wind your neck in, be humbled. Let her get a diagnosis. The irony is all the kids got diagnosed. None of them take the meds because it changes their personality and they don't like it. So they didn't want to take the meds and I'm not going to force meds down their neck. You know, everyone reacts differently to it. So she would take the meds to do her exam and then come home and just be like, I hate these meds. I'm like, don't take them then, babe. Yeah. And also you're out of school now. You know, I don't believe in over-medicating, you know, it has to be what works for the child.

17:18well so the shape of diagnosis the aim of the diagnosis and not to go and go to medication exactly not just one of the options you have yeah beyond this is how you can and you know when I was diagnosed the doctor I had said you've clearly your self-coping tools have you know you've managed to cope this far I wouldn't particularly change anything but the irony was of course by the time I got the diagnosis and was able to have meds if I wanted them I'd already written the book wow I'd already written the book so I had all this going on at the same time I don't know how people go on holiday and switch off for two weeks no i don't know how you do it i would be by by hour two sunbathing i'm out of my mind with boredom i cannot do it i'd rather do it i'd rather go to new york i'd rather be surrounded by noise noise calms me you know i think that's why i've got 27 children and grandchildren because the noise calms me i'm never more peaceful than when i'm surrounded by i mean don't get me wrong i don't know can you just please shut the fuck up because for five minutes piece but actually it's quite I'm never more chilled than when they're all under my roof yeah and the bustle of it yeah yeah I can I can understand that very much and I think also maybe it's also partly why you've created a business that's shaped by you because I think then you can it sounds like you instinctively curated these bits when you said you know I know I need this time to switch off time before you knew a name for how you're how these things were functioning you'd already found oh yeah I mean the coping skills were already there because I already had business I already had the family I already had staff you know I was already doing everything and obviously but the overwhelm was just familiar yeah you know and I was like okay I'm overwhelmed I need to chill don't talk to me so was it a relief to did it did it change anything no no it didn't change anything it I was kinder to myself so I was kinder to myself and I remember things like when I was younger like blurting is a big bit of ADHD because you want to you want to tell people that you can relate to them but you can come across as rude because you interrupt you know and so that was a learning that has kind of lessened as I've got older um I don't do it as much as it were it didn't change anything for me but I was just a bit kinder to myself and maybe as well given the fact that your first instinct when Ada was going for this assessment was, oh, that doesn't seem right.

19:37You realise that unwittingly you've been modelling how to have a world that works around you. Exactly. So that's reassuring as well. You've been like, oh, I've already been doing it. Yeah, I'm already doing the coping skills. Some of my fears I can already soothe with how things are going. Exactly, and actually it's so normal these days. It is. You know, it's so normal. And the fact, I just kind of say, when I do meet and greets and parents say, you know, I get quite a few mums going, oh my God, my daughter's got ADHD, you talking about it It made me feel like there wasn't anything wrong with her.

20:06That's fantastic. And I say to them, don't worry about the meds. Don't worry about their exams. What are they passionate about? And they've all got an answer. What are they passionate about? Let her do that. One of my friends said yesterday, I said, well, she's 15. Her daughter's 15. She's got ADHD. She doesn't want to go to school. She hates everyone. She wants to go and live with her nan. I hate you. That stage, which I went through with Ava, 15 to 18, wanted to kill her. And she'll say the same thing, you know, not with the boys, just my daughter, because she was a teenager as I was perimenopausal.

20:34Yes. Just explosive. And I said, well, what's her passions? And she went, oh, she knows exactly what she wants to do. She wants to do the three sciences in A-level so she can go and be a Formula One tech. And I was like, let her do that. And she went, well, what she doesn't get, Caroline, is she has to do her frigging O-levels first or GCSEs first before she can do that. And that's what she doesn't want to do. So, you know, it's just that if they've got a passion, let them follow it. Absolutely. Not everyone has to be good at math. Not everyone has to enjoy English. but if they've got a passion, indulge it.

21:03I'm 100 % with you on that. Indulge it. Well, talking of a passion that's been indulged, before we start, actually do start talking about your big relationship with skincare. I do want to go back a little bit before that to when you had your first baby. So you're 22 years old when you have your first. Baby Ben. Did that seem very young at the time to you? Yeah, it seemed young, but my mum was 22. My nana was 22. two I just kept the tradition going well done because my mum was 23 my grandma was 23 and I was annoyed with myself and I didn't have a baby at 23 I was like I've dropped the ball on this one you made up the time though to absolve myself exactly um but it sounds like maybe somewhere in there was just like this 22 was a sort of maybe I mean I knew I wanted two kids before I was 25 I don't know where that came from but I always had this vision of I want two kids before I'm 25 I didn't expect to want another two that was a surprise but the planning of them wasn't I mean I'm type a all the way because you also you're one of two so sometimes when you've kind of got and it's a big gap I'm nine years older than my brother so I'm more like his second mum than his and his big sister you know and I know I wanted two and then there just came a point where I thought I want a daughter and I was the only word I can use is ravenous I was I want a daughter And if the thing is, when Ava and I were arguing, I wanted to say to her, if you knew how much I wanted you, you wouldn't be such a fucking bitch to me right now.

22:30Like literally, because I could taste my daughter like it was. I want a daughter. So I followed the girl diet, the girl sex. I did any any old wives tale, anything I could do. Got pregnant with Ava. Boom. And we I am hyper fertile. So I've had almost as many miscarriages as I have pregnancies as live births, as they would say. um but I I I know that I'm very fortunate in that way because I have so many friends who struggle and I didn't I could plan the babies to the month I mean literally I go you need to get me pregnant this month that's what it was like but I've never been as determined as determined as I'm in business is how determined I was when I came to planning pregnancies I mean like a machine I take the type a thing too far well no I think it's really nice to to hear about that and I think wanting a family and being lucky enough to have one.

23:23Exactly. I don't take it for granted. And I recognised with every pregnancy that went full term that I was very, very, very lucky, you know. But equally, it's a strange one. I don't know if you've had any miscarriages, but I've had three. I have had miscarriages. And with each miscarriage, I knew it wasn't going to term. Really? I knew. I would be like, this doesn't sit well. I'm not comfortable. Either it wasn't planned or it wasn't planned. Like there was just something. And they weren't late. I was lucky. I had a missed miscarriage. So the latest I went was like 12 weeks. But I was also very sort of just logical about it.

23:56I didn't grieve, which seems cold, but it wasn't because I never made the connection with the pregnancy. No, I don't think that does sound cold. I think that sounds like a self-protection almost. Yeah. And actually, it reminds me of conversations I had with my mum and she's always been very pragmatic. Pragmatic is the right word. Yeah. And I don't think that's cold. I think that I think there's a comfort in it, actually. Yeah, literally. Because you think if you imagine those pregnancies as the children you have, everything shifts. But if you imagine it as something that wasn't meant to be, something was up in your body.

24:32Exactly. And I knew. And so my reproductive era was pregnancy. So I had Ben, Dan, miscarriage, Ava, miscarriage, Max, miscarriage, abortion, like in a row. And so I've done all of it, swings and roundabouts for various reasons, you know. But I know I got pregnant so easily that I have nothing but the strongest wave of empathy for people who struggle. Absolutely, yes. Because I know what it's like to have the craving. Yeah. But my craving was satisfied. Yeah, absolutely. And I also have, you know, my heart goes out to anyone who hasn't found comfort in the way we have with that, if that hasn't kicked in.

25:11Because I do think some of it is luck of the draw for how you're emotionally wired with these things. It really is. I think again my and I think it is my ADHD brain always steps in to protect me I was saying this on a pod the other week how I when my mum died the three things that are immediately in my head my I had oh wow this is what this feels like this is one of those major life events this is the worst day of my life and thank God it wasn't one of the kids that's how my brain immediately went you're going to be okay this is horrendous part of you is dying inside right now but it wasn't the kids yeah well there's isn't that just like and it was immediate.

25:47I get that though because I think grief without, if loss follows the natural order of things, there is something to be said to the fact that it's not got the tragedy of... Oh, my mum would absolutely agree with me. You know, when my nana died, my mum was devastated. But if it had been me or my brother, she would have been far worse. So it was the natural order. It was too soon for me to lose her, but it was the natural order of things. I always think you need different words in the vocabulary for these different interactions with grief, actually. And it sounds like your mum influenced a lot of what followed in your life anyway.

26:21Oh, number one influence, easily. Easily, to all of us. Even, you know, when we were in hospital, I found a video the other day because Ava had the baby in June. And she was doing an impression of my mum as we were checking out the hospital and I videoed and we were both doing an impression of my mum and what she would be like if she was there. It was very funny and entertaining. But, yeah, my mum was absolutely my number one influence in everything. What's your mum's name? Cathy. Oh, it's Cathy. yeah Kathy Black there's a lovely bit I found online actually picture of your mum behind the beauty counter picture of your nan behind the beauty counter back in the glorious days like are you being served like leak everywhere chiffon everywhere everyone smelled amazing imagine I would love a little walk around that so gorgeous just my earliest memories are going to see my nana on counter and just the smell the smell like girlan just the fragrances just the heady fragrances and everyone looked immaculate and it was the service industry the service industry there was no shame in it it wasn't like oh it's retail you know everyone loved that job the fact they made a whole show around are you being served is you know people don't get it like it's the service industry I mean I always say if it all goes to shit tomorrow I'll go back to the shop floor happily well for a lot of people I've spoken to where they've had a similar experience of starting in that and then building a business later they often talk about that as a real halcyon period because of the interactions with people and how that would really...

27:44It teaches you everything. I think everyone should work in the service industry at least once. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan.

28:24There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

29:08Business is booming. Is your fulfillment ready for peak season? Switch to ShipStation now and handle more volume with confidence when it counts. ShipStation connects Shopify, Amazon, TikTok shop, and over 200 more integrations with one platform that does it all. You can manage orders, sync inventory, track returns, all automatically. Everything your operation needs, all in one place. Right now, qualified shippers get a real dedicated person to get you set up and switched over for free. So when peak season hits, you're ready to go. Switch today at ShipStation.com code audio. Hello, I'm Monica Reinagle, host of the Nutrition Diva podcast.

29:41Summer is here and with it, the hot and sticky weather. A morning working in the garden or maybe on the golf course can leave you more depleted than you realize. And plain water isn't always the most efficient way to restore the balance. That's where Liquid IV comes in. Its science-backed formula is clinically proven to hydrate faster than water alone. Whether you're exercising, playing outside, or simply surviving a summer heat wave, it's an easy way to stay hydrated. Shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV, hydration that goes wherever life takes you. Checking off the boxes on your to-do list is a great feeling.

30:17That's why a State Farm agent is there to help you choose a coverage option that's right for you. Whether you're getting a new house, car, boat, or RV, helping protect it is important. And State Farm is there to help you choose the coverage you need, whether you prefer talking in person, on the phone, or using the award-winning app. And with so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs, so you can continue to focus on what's most important to you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. So how old were your babies when you started working in Harvey Nichols?

30:55Max and Ava weren't born and Ben and Dan were, well, I went full time when Daniel started nursery full time at four. So he must have been about three. So they would have been like three and five. And did you go towards it as a kind of, I'll see how this goes? Or was it something? I just needed the job. Just needed the job. Just needed a weekend job. So you weren't looking for it thinking, I need an end to this world. No, not at all. No one was more surprised than me. and equally weirdly as much as beauty had been a part of my mum and my nana's life that we'd never discussed me working in it really never and so I got the job at the Aveda counter in Harvey Nichols and it was a Saturday worked on the Saturday you know shadowed everyone and on the Sunday because obviously back in the day Sundays weren't were quiet they weren't the day they are now and the other person was supposed to be working called in sick and I was on my own on the Aveda counter in Harvey Nichols and took more money on the Sunday than they had as a whole team on the saturday and i was like not only do i love this but i'm good at it and i'm not selling people stuff they don't need i'm just sharing my passion like smell this this is amazing smell this shampoo you need this do this and that was it really that i never looked back i literally on day two went i'm never going to work anywhere else everything i do has to be and somehow in retail beauty something and now oh it's so neat though i speak to you my peripheral vision with your fourth book it's very very perfect um and I'm thinking about the time as well when you're studying your beauty qualifications uh skincare qualifications and you've got by now you've had your third baby no I'm pregnant with Ava oh you're pregnant Ava yeah I'm pregnant with Ava and because I got pregnant with Ava while I was in the middle of doing college yeah I had to stop have Ava and then I went back to school and then got pregnant again with Max and I took my exam when I was eight months pregnant with Max and got my certificate like two or three days before I gave birth.

32:46So do you look back at that and think, that looks tiring? I look back and think, fuck me. Like, excuse my French, but Jesus Christ. I was, I mean, running on petrol just, just, you know, four kids. So three kids pregnant with another. I'd go and work all day and then go into central London, into Steiner in Wardour Street and do three hours of beauty twice a week, Monday and Wednesday night. and for like in the end it was over a three three and a half year period to do all the hours I needed to do to get the level of qualification I wanted because I'm type A incredible and how why pick the easy route yeah well I mean that is an extraordinary thing to be getting up to and how did you manage your how did you manage to keep a priority space for the thing you really cared about in amongst having such a young family because I think for any working parent that can be really challenging and I know that it's all very well to sit here now and say but I was working towards something and they've obviously got such a fabulous example a working mother and a working grandmother but at that time there's a lot of uncertainty in the air yeah the path is not already laid so what how are you helping yourself with that uh we needed the money i need to feed the kids that i'd been desperate to have i mean that's literally i don't come from money my husband didn't come from money we both worked like bootstrapped everything from the ground up um and we needed money so i had to go to work and when that has been such a drive the economy of it aside from the fact that clearly it's something you're passionate about and you're like i'm not doing anything else ever again but if it is economically driven how do you try to instill the same thing in your kids it's not as easy it's not as easy well the thing is as well like i i think as parents i will certainly i can speak for myself i don't want my kids to have to work as hard as i did i do want them i do think some struggle is good for you you know you do need a character i don't know if i'd go as far as doing like a bill gates and saying my kids are only getting a million dollars each when you're Bill Gates.

34:59Sort your kids out, but if you've instilled good character in them, you'll be okay. And my kids have all got good character. So I'm comfortable with that. Will they ever have the same drive I did? No. Of course not, but then not a lot of people do. I know I'm a bit of a lunatic. I don't expect it from my kids. I expect them to do something and get off their ass, but they now talk about me in fond terms in terms of watching me work when they were growing up all of them and see it as a me setting an example which is nice this is something well I and I don't think that's an aside I actually think that's a really reassuring block capital thing because I think with parenthood we're very encouraged to think about the early years as being so you put so much pressure on yourself about those early years but actually parenting is a long game I'm still parenting my kids are 34 to 22 and I'm still mum about 25 times a day on the phone so you have two in their 30s two in their 20s yeah yeah what does parenthood look like then with at that age uh you're a you're a bank teller and a taxi driver and that's kind of I always describe it as you go from being a manager to a consultant you know you go from being a manager where everything they do is under your control and you have to make sure they go this way and that way and this way and then you become a consultant they call you for advice and money that doesn't change I called my mum for money for years when I had kids I'd be like mom can you buy the uniform I'm skin of course I can babe you know and so I I I'm very we're very active in each other's lives and they know I'm here if they need me and sometimes I would step in and be mum and they don't like it a lot of the time because they're adults I don't care still you're still my kid you know I saw someone describe it once as like when you have a kid and especially because I've got four it's quite handy it's like the four chambers of your heart have left your body and they're out there walking around without you and that's what it feels like doesn't it it's like the first time they start going out on their own And you're like, okay, well, when they're coming home.

36:52Because when my boys were out on the road, there was no phones. You couldn't track them. It was just like, be back for so-and-so. You know, where are they? You'd have to call their mums. Have they been there? Torture. So when the kids, because three of them have taken me off of Find My, and nothing gives me more rage, I'm like, put me back on Find My because I don't need to know where you are. I just need to know that you're moving and alive, and I just need to be able to chill. So when they're traveling, like Ava, if she's traveling, make sure you turn on Find My. which you know my mum and dad would be like be back in at tea time and then you're gone for the day gone yeah you know if the lights were going dark and they'd be like caroline your mum's calling you be like shit quick you know oh my god i'm so glad it wasn't fine when i was young i was actually just picturing all of that where is she she's in a field snogging a boy oh she's in a field snogging Lindsay Adkins it would have been better if it was a field I would be like why is she in King's Cross it's two in the morning it's way worse way worse but I do think uh I've loved hearing you talk about um well firstly your family life but also grandmotherhood which looks like such a rich and wonderful role to be in it's the highlight of my life how can I've always struggled to get my head around the idea of this love that's somehow even sort of more richer for grandbabies sometimes without the complexity of those that you gave birth to yeah um how would you sort of sum up that well I saw a comment that said grandchildren are the lord's gift to you for not killing your teenager and never is anything wrong more true because they are it's just joy just joy the first time my son held past my his daughter to me because i picked them up from the hospital to take them home and it's because it was during lockdown we weren't allowed in so he was with lily when she had the section and then uh he brought the baby out and passed her to me to put in the car seat i had this immediate here she is here she is she was familiar to me you know like this is this is mine by default you know and then my son starts using words like boundaries whatever uh but the the baby the baby thing with the grandchildren is for me was all-encompassing powerful just a different level of love like you love your kids to the point where you would die for them but you love your grandkids to the point where I'd push my son in front of a bus to save his kids and he knows that he laughs he's like that should that should be mom that's fine like I love you.

39:29If the choice is there, I'll go in front of the bus. Don't get me wrong. But don't get me wrong. I'm not going to sacrifice you for me. It's not you, then me. Yes, it would be me first. But, and it's instinctive. And I feel it from, because we have a newborn and then I have the other two that are sort of, you know, primary school. And I feel it from them every time I see them. It's just this instinctive, deep awareness that we are connected. sounds very magical it's absolutely magical is the right word you know there's just and it's strange for my son because you know I share things with my daughter-in-law who I adore she's one of my own kids you know I share things that say you know like my son will say you know well who's the woman that raised me where's she gone and I'm like well she's not stressed anymore and now we have money so nanny's just going to spoil them rotten he said to me the second year he said mum look last year was insane we don't have anywhere to put all this toys and just all this shit you're buying them like just don't go mad I went son and I've told this story so many times but it rings true with everyone I speak to son I do everything you ask they don't get the food they're not supposed to get when they're here I don't over apply them with sweets they go to bed on time they have a bath they do their teeth everything you will never dictate how much money I spend on my grandchildren and he just went what's the fucking point I went I really don't know and I said to him you will be lucky if you don't turn up on Christmas Eve and there's not a fucking pony attached to that tree and he just went okay then glad we had that chat great don't even bother everything else you have a say financials no say whatsoever I will spend whatever I want to spend because I didn't have that with the kids yeah we were always skint and scrabbling and like oh god I want to get them this you know borrow your brother's uniform and all of that so now I'm just like it was my granddaughter's birthday this week and she I went around to see them because I'm going away for a few weeks for work and she was lying on top of me like this with you know the hand on the chin nanny in my face like here nanny and you know how they talk when they're that age everything so they they enunciate so clearly nanny did you get me a present for my birthday and i was like yes i did and daddy's gonna have to put it together to you for you because nanny won't be here so happy about i've got your card and she went is it and she went and is it a pink barbie truck and i went um no but you didn't ask nanny for a pink barbie truck did you and she went okay but i could eat them could eat back to the ravenous again ravenous but i mean i will i just i'm just saying to all my kids just have babies like not the younger two not yet you know but ava got in there so that's fine but i yeah obsessive is the word i'm one of those grandmothers i will pull out a phone you sound like a great grandma just love love love love them and i also think it's funny when you said about your son saying you have been trying to say can you just curb the the spending like no no you you don't have ownership of that um this way that you have of being very clear with your thoughts and what works for you and what doesn't which runs throughout everything that you do and the way you deliver your expertise um is this something that is if i if i'd met you like 20 years ago would that have been running through then or is this something that's grown with your knowledge and your way you know the chapter you're in I think it's always been there I think it's probably stronger now that I'm post-menopausal than it ever was I certainly have grown to be very comfortable with my own thoughts and feelings and being who I am and like any woman I think when you're younger you sort of suppress it you know yeah but I don't suppress anything these days if someone's not comfortable around me then don't be around me that's absolutely fine it's so good though and what i love is that you're of all the noise around skincare i really firstly i really trust what you say and secondly i know that you're not going to have any bollocks in there it's absolutely going to be tried tested um i just think uh you know it says on the book actually expert advice you can trust i think that is absolutely true i feel very solid with the information you partake and i also think compliment thank you very much absolutely and i also think um i mean i listened to so many interviews with you before you were coming today and i found you so captivating and i love how much humor is laced in there as well alongside all the knowledge always always has to be but well it's not always there though sometimes people get very serious about things and it's it doesn't ring as true with with some things because it becomes all a bit tonally one level so um yeah it's a real a real skill I think to be able to keep people engaged while they're also being told things yeah I think that comes from the sales floor that comes from having to talk to customers you know I've been in sales for 40 years literally 42 years and so I know how to talk to people I know how to gauge people I know how to look at people and go do they really want a sales pitch because a lot of people do obviously when people by the time they get in front of me, they're like, tell me what I need to buy.

44:36And that isn't normally how I operate. Normally I operate by you need this, you don't need this. That's where all the packaging came from. Oh, you don't need that. Try this, you know. And it's certainly got stronger as I've gotten older, but then it's just more experience. You know, I'm 57. I don't suffer fools. I sleep well. I think my moral compass is very strong. You know, I've never lied about a product. I've never sort of taken money to sell a product that I don't think would work for people. I've always been very clear. You know, every time we get a brief through for ads, we look at it and go, well, I'm not going to say any of that, you know, because they want you to follow a script.

45:11And I'm like, I'm not going to say any of that. Give me three key points for me to get across and I'll do it in my way. But, you know, we get things through from like usually American brands and it says all over it because they once once sent me a wrong contract this year. I got sent one that was for an American influencer and it said all over it. Do not declare this as an ad. do not declare this as an ad and i was like i don't think you're talking to the wrong person here babe and they're like oh sorry no that's the american contract illegal maybe literally and i was like it's also illegal in the u.s why the ftc saw this you'd be torn to shreds don't declare this as an ad don't use the ad tool on tiktok and i'm like wow you guys really do this shit we just said no so not only can i not say any of that i'm not gonna not declare an ad so yeah my moral compass is very steady well it's an asset isn't it yeah it's a good feeling to know yourself like that and I do think um I think it's really brilliant to sing the praises of you know getting older for women because there's so much power and joy in it that I don't think was really um I don't think I saw those that that uh lighthouse flaring from when I was young no I didn't either and that's why when I was going through perimenopause I didn't know what it was I was just piling on weight.

46:22I thought carbs and red wine were in my food group. And I was, I had brain fog. I had no energy. I mean, every cliche, vertigo, my vertigo was so bad. They called an ambulance and thought I was having a heart attack. So the fact that menopause is spoken about so openly now is the reason women, I think have really changed their direction. You You know, menopause information and social media are really galvanizing women in a way that men hate. And I'm here for it. Those kind of men, not all the men we love. Those, those, hands-made, hand-made tail men. Not the ones we're raising. Not the ones we're raising.

47:02No, they're fantastic. But, you know, that kind of the sort of typical cliche stereotype man in business who, you know, there's a reason that all the wealthiest people in the world are men. Yeah. With the odd Walton family in America who own Walmart, you know. But I think the tide is shifting. I mean, the Lindsay Clancy case has been key in this last month, you know, for women just being like, oh, the fact that it was 11 to 1 and the 1 was a man was no surprise to any of us, you know. And all the women saying it was so clear how much she loved her children. Even her mother-in-law defended her in court.

47:37That was really difficult. Horrendous. Thank you for watching that, wasn't it? So, you know. I was trying to explain that to my boys, actually. I'm not sure I was quite the right guy. I was just saying to say, like, don't engage too much in what you think about the case. Look at where it resonates. That's what I'm trying to draw attention to. Because obviously the case is horrific and terrifying. The thing is, though, I find when you're talking to women about it, we don't even need to mention the children because we all know what she, we don't know what she's going through, but we know what the result is of the actions.

48:06So it's not that the children are forgotten. It's that we don't even need to talk about it because every woman, especially a woman who's had, you know, multiple children, especially in her case, gets it. Yeah. Us talking about her and what she went through is not taking away from the children, not being here anymore. Quite the opposite, I think, you know. So, yeah, that kind of thing. And then the abortion movement for me is key. It's if I was going to, you know, sell the business, retire and have a lot of money, I would put it all in women's rights. All of it. Women's rights worldwide. you know how dare you try and tell me what i can and cannot do with my own body how dare you think that i will leave this world with my granddaughter having fewer rights than i had in the you know in the 21st century absolutely fucking not yeah yeah absolutely and obviously those are very those are the extremes but even in the as you say about how social media has galvanized i'm i'm quite fascinated by that because you're right i think all these conversations around perimenopause menopause you know it means that all these um conversations and communities that previously would have got quieter and quieter have now got spaces we can all find each other yeah and have these conversations and we're all out there and we all feel the same way for it absolutely absolutely and if we go back to skin um is is perimenopause up there as like some one of the biggest sort of skin changes along with your sort of teenage years yeah and for women hormonal changes are key and perimenopause I developed acne out of nowhere when I was in my early 40s and still didn't put it down to menopause I didn't know what was happening um I went to the doctor I got antibiotics I took them for a few days and then went hang on a minute what are you doing change your skincare you know the irony of it happening to me and then not not doing what I tell people to do you know and then I changed my skincare and I sorted it out myself and I didn't take the antibiotics I came off everything cold turkey which you're not supposed to do but that's very me and then I started slowly to realize hang on is this my hormones and then a couple of friends said to me in the same space of a couple of weeks oh you should go and see the hormone doctor so and so because we did and it's life-changing but that took years years I mean I was 50 before I got HRT and if I'd got it in my early 40s my god I'd be a weapon now I think that's awesome can you imagine but what if you're so most people who listen to my podcast are in that demographic if you're someone like me who's been a very um what's the word yeah because they're slightly negligent owner of skin um is it too late and what should i be doing more of it's not too late i would go and see a professional if you haven't done anything with your skin because a lot of people are intimidated to go to a beauty counter and I understand that or to go into like a space in care or Sephora because you feel like you're going to get sold to and for the most part you are so if you haven't done your research or you're not sure you've still done your research you're not sure then go for a facial go and see a professional I always say you know we brush our teeth it doesn't stop us going to the dentist you know you we brush our hair and wash our hair it doesn't stop us going to the hairdresser but I think the you know the media has also done quite a bit to put people off going for facials as if people who study skin aren't important unless you're a dermatologist and it's just nonsense you know makes sense our basic training is like 300 hours physiology anatomy all of it so i would go and see someone you know we've got skin rocks pros around the country there's a find a facialist tool on the website and they're all trained in the product and how to do the advice and you know not that they needed our training they were already qualified but it helps to have someone to talk to to go oh yeah that's totally normal or maybe that product's not for you you know just an extension of what we do online really you know it's um i would say sort out your washing as in your face you know like if you're using wipes please throw them away or keep them for a festival um but yeah sort out your cleansing check you're using the right moisturizer and then go from there there's no point in going out and spending a load of money on a really expensive serum if you're not doing the basics right and that's kind of where i start with everyone what do you wash with what do you moisturize with do you use an spf those are generally the first questions that come out of my mouth yeah and you know and what aren't you happy with yeah because i'm not going to stand i'm never going to stand in front of someone and critique their face that's not what i do i just say what what are you concerned about and how does how does having a baby affect your skin well it depends if you're having a boy or a girl really weirdly yeah um because the hormones that rage around your body are slightly tweaked so when i was having ava i was i this is for me i my skin was i mean the bounciest juiciest it's ever been because I was overflowing with estrogen is how I felt.

52:49And when I was having the boys, I very clearly felt some testosterone. I just, you know, psychological people might say that's nonsense, blah, blah, blah. But actually, you know, you're growing this, this person in your belly and the hormones are there. The blood exchanges are there. And I just, you know, I got more spots when I was having the boys, just little things like that. But essentially you have, you go through the biggest hormonal surge and drop when you give birth than you ever will. And so that period when you're given birth I would say just take it easy on yourself don't try and do too much don't try and introduce actives give yourself time you know they say it takes nine months to have a baby and nine months to get over it I think it's a bit longer you know especially if you breastfeed yeah I would say it's longer hormonal surges in your body are huge it feels like at least a year at least a year to sort of start to feel okay I remember who I am now I'm not just a cow yeah yeah I'm not just udders yeah and also just who am I again after I mean when you were having your babies did you ever worry about how it might affect your ambition not really I mean I had moments where I thought I should be further along in work but I'm not because I've had a baby but that's fine I'll get there that's your own drive speaking that's my own drive speaking yeah but no I always felt like I could do both and when they were little were you going back into studying pretty quickly then yeah so I had Ava at home I didn't have her at home I mean when she was at home and I would you know I would be working and then I'd go into uh started college again when she was a little bit older I didn't go straight back so by the time I went back to do my final year was when I got pregnant with Max so it was a it was at least 18 months two years later um and then I got pregnant again I was like wow okay the school are like are you are you going going to keep having kids or are we going to finish the course I'm like no I'll finish the course this time it'll be fine I've looked at the timings I'll be very big and so when I did my exam they had to put me at the front of the room because I couldn't fit behind the bed so they had to they had to so when if you go into an exam room there's like long layers of beds like a hospital ward bed bed bed bed and you sit behind it and I couldn't fit behind the bed so they had to put a bed out in the front like alongside and then I so I could be seen by the examiner but also fit behind the bed because I was so big with Max.

55:05I'm actually just marveling at all that you were going back home to the three babies. Three babies and work. And work. And I think, no wonder you're tired. And I know you've got a very pragmatic mind. What's the pragmatism with the bits that, because there is always a bit where you're like, right, I'm going to, I have to go out again. I know you needed to put food on the table. I understand the economic thing, but the mother heart that's like, I know I won't be at that school pickup or, you know, bedtime. I didn't mind missing school pickup. I didn't miss the school playground at all. At all. I picked a bad example.

55:37No, I think I'm like Danny Dyer. That clip he talks about, I just want to get in the motor, pick up the baby, get in the motor, done. I've heard you talk about soft play and I feel exactly the same, by the way. Soft play can go fuck itself. It's the absolute worst. When I think of the worst aspects of parenting, that is where my mind goes. Soft play. Yeah. It looks all the edges off you as well. You could be anyone sat there. Yeah. It's so hard to bring your sense of self to that environment. It's the poo and the wee and the ball pit. And the way it smells and the sounds. the noise the screaming the birthday parties and then I mean some of them Lord of the Flies style sending them in they come out holding something oh someone kicked me oh like what's going on in there it's the old style I mean some of them come with me no no I don't want to go down a tube slide some of them cottoned on and started serving booze during them remember yeah yeah so which seems to me to be honest I don't want to get drunk there either no I don't want to get drunk with the kids I just don't want you to be here I just don't want to be there we went to soft play in Longleat with the grandchildren and we walked in and my grandson was hurt within 30 seconds I get out we're going we're not doing this again ever again why do I even bother I hate soft play yeah hate soft play I think for me it was also the loneliness of it because you see they run in and then they run off and you're just sat there at those little tables with some shoes um and everything's sort of sticky and you think what do I do now I just sit here and wait and then I just start thinking about knits and I start itching and I think oh god so yeah no soft play is not for me but in terms of the kids and all the different sort of all the different bits of you know I never missed a play I never missed a PTA not the PTA I never missed like a parents evening that kind of thing but you know there would be things where I'd say I can't drop you off today and I'm not going to be home for pickup tomorrow dad's going to do this you know so by the time we had Ava and Max Jim was doing all of the the sort of parenting with the day in and the day out um so I did the first two he did the second two we kind of just switched because I was earning more money I was more ambitious um but I was always there you know if there was something wrong if they're not well oh yeah if they're not well it's easy because their dad's at home but you know for example Max was hospitalized it turned out he was lactose intolerant but he had pneumonia when he was a baby and he was so well and just vomiting and couldn't keep anything down and of course then yeah I know I'm in bed with him like I'm living in the hospital that's different oh yeah but um And I found it quite easy to compartmentalise.

57:53Which is, again, one of those things, I think, if you're lucky enough to have that style of brain, it's a big asset, I think, being able to compartmentalise. And I think my ADHD comes out in, I mean, I blame it on the ADHD. It could just be me. But, you know, I don't, I'm very good at rescuing my brain from going too far worrying. So I don't really get anxious. I don't really get stressed. Like, oh, God, what about this or that? I'm like, it'll be fine. We'll work it out. That's always been the way I am. hmm and with your skincare range what was the impetus of that because presumably you could have stayed within a sort of consultancy expert role what what made you want to take the plunge with that it just got to the point where I'd reached the peak of the blogging world as it were I'd done the book I'd consulted for all the best brands in the industry you know the brands I wanted to consult for.

58:47And I got to the point where I was fixing everyone else's problems and just thought, I know what I'm doing here. So why don't I do it myself? You know, I know how to get a product started. I know what I would do. Why don't I just, instead of making everyone else's fortunes, why don't I think about my own family? You know, and I hate the story that you get when people launch a skincare brand and they say, oh, it didn't exist. So I had to create it. Piss off. Like, oh, you've come to rescue us, have you? Because no one else is doing it right. I just knew I could do my best work and that it might be successful.

59:20So why not give it a go? You know, I really love that. I love that you've you've acknowledged that there were things you're just like, if I pull this and this and this and this, there's something that can make that. Yeah. And does it feel like it's allowed something new to take flight? Kind of. I mean, if people say, did you always know you'd end up here? I say no. I always knew I'd be successful. I always knew I trusted myself in terms of work and work ethic more than anyone else so I always knew I'd be okay I just wasn't I was never really sure or fixed on how I would do it if that makes sense I was never really adamant about I've got to do this this and this I've always been good at pivoting yeah and it's it's so exciting to let life surprise you a bit actually yeah and be like oh okay not in terms of like one of our girls in work has just found out she's pregnant and everyone was giving her a big cheer yesterday and she said she doesn't want to know what it is and I'm like oh I can't relate I had to know what mine were really yeah when they wouldn't tell you because when I first had Ben and Dan it was back in the days where they wouldn't tell you what you were having you'd have to go for a scan and they'd say the baby's healthy and that was it yeah and I'd be like what is it is there a penis I just need to know what I'm having and then by the time we had Ava and Max they they would tell you what it was I had to know even though I knew instinctively what three of them were I and I would only ever had like I only have had girls names for Ava I only have boys names for Max I knew Max was going to be Max before I even conceived him I was like obsessed yeah I'm a bit obsessed with name things I've still got a list.

1:00:42It's hilarious. Crazy, isn't it? Some of my ideas of baby names are really funny. They're like really out there. Like very old fashioned names, but like ones that nobody's using anymore. I'm trying to think of a good example. I think I had like Pam on there. Nice. Sue. I really, if Mickey had been a girl who's going to be Sue, I just thought, come on. Brilliant. There's no baby Sues. Brilliant. I wanted to contribute that. Baby Suesy. but um i think when my mum had my sister who's in her 30s so same thing with the your older kids with not knowing she just said to the sonographer um i already have a boy should i be keeping hold of his clothes or something like that something and then one was like you might not need to do that or something like that so that's a sort of codey way of finding out with me i just got really good at i could see the scans i got yeah i'm actually quite good at reading yeah because you're like oh i can see a penis yes there we go i mean They weren't going to tell me with Ben, but as soon as they put the scan on, it just so happened that he was upside down flying with his legs in the air and I could see a penis.

1:01:42Yeah, there you go. And I said, oh, is that a willy? And they went, well, we can't. I went, oh, it's a willy. I knew he was a boy, you know. Well, the running thread throughout all of this is that you seem very good at being able to know yourself in these things, which is such a glorious attribute. And I think that's also something that people gravitate towards because there are so many times in life when you don't really know. So when someone's like, come over here, this bit I've got, it's very reassuring. Before we finish, I have one final question for you. And actually it's not coming, it's nothing to a skin.

1:02:15But I realised that there's loads of songs with Caroline in it. You've got so many songs and I wondered which one is your favourite? I get Sweet Caroline, obviously. my granddad used to sing carolina moon to me which i didn't even know she was like carolina moon keep shining and i'd be like i've never heard it since i don't know who sings it i thought it was just him making it up it might be i don't know it's not ringing any bells but i don't know and then there's pretty in pink oh yeah caroline loves and she's raining all day um psychedelic fuzz and there is there's caroline no by the beach boys but actually it's oh caroline by the 1975 ah good one yeah because my sons are huge fans we're all huge fans and denise is a girlfriend of mine and so we've been at their gigs we're all the family and everyone turns to sing it to me and stuff so and at one point denise said that one of her mates on loose women said did matty write this about caroline meaning me she was like no no it's one of xyz's old girlfriends i was like that's kind of that's the flattering bless his heart i could be his mother you know but probably O Caroline by the 1975 good one I'm glad I asked oh thank you so much and thank you for writing such a brilliant book thank you for having us it's going to stay with me sometimes when I've got podcast guests and they've written books I'll read it and then I'll be like okay I can share but I'm not I'm going to keep my copy well thank you very much I'm honoured thank you for having me which sounds like a really backhanded compliment but I do mean it because I just want to be able to refer to it no please keep the book I'm going to write your name all over it so no one else can take it oh yeah please do it yeah thank you

1:03:54Yeah, you see, I've been thinking to myself, I bet Caroline has got a favourite Caroline song. There are so many. I think mine might have to be Caroline, which is the Fleetwood Mac song. I always like that one. It's on the album Tango in the Dark, the one after Rumours, which is actually my favourite album of theirs, for fans. I've still got a little minute before boarding so thank you for sharing this time with me thank you so much to Caroline isn't it lovely to hear from different stages of motherhood and the path that can follow and actually I love the fact that Caroline worked so flipping hard when her kids were young but really shows you about how the depth of those relationships can really benefit what happens later on when you've for adult children i think so often when we're about to have our first baby and you want to have some something you're growing for yourself or you need it economically or you're in the middle of things or whatever your story is um that person had their phone on loud um you can really get so wrapped in the the guilt of of how it can all work but look she just shows you the path is long and your kids grow up with a good work ethic and i think caroline is such a good example of that so lovely to hear about that and also lovely yes to hear about her relationship with her grandbabies very very cute and congratulations to her daughter because I think her baby's only a few months old maybe she could be a future guest one day listen we're up and running the new series like System Go I've got some lovely guests coming up for you ranging from an activist to a singer to a midwife to a chef.

1:05:47I'm just thinking at the top of my head. Names you're going to know. People I'm maybe going to introduce you to. The usual gorgeous, eclectic mix of wise voices sharing their stories with generosity. And you are being super generous with your time too. So I appreciate it. Lovely to be back. I'll see you on the other side. So I'm going to head to my gate. Lots of love. Thank you.

1:06:18Thank you.

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