Inside the Big Business of Sports Media

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1:57Welcome to the Sports Media Podcast. I'm your host, Richard Deitch. My producer is James Jackson. Two guests on this episode, but if you're interested in the business of sports media, honestly, no better than these two. Ed Dessler and John Kosner are the authors of We're Live Inside the Big Business of Sports Media. The book is out October 1st. Let me give that to you again. We're live inside the big business of sports media. I would think those names are familiar to many of the people who listen to this podcast. But for those of you who are more kind of casual watchers or readers of sports media, for some background, both Ed and John are very, very notable executives in the modern sports media industry.

2:42Among his other jobs, Ed spent 23 years as the NBA senior media executive, which would I mean, negotiated major television rights agreements as part of launching NBA TV, created NBA League Pass, was a big part of when NBA.com got started, and also was part of that league's global expansion into many, many countries. John started at CBS Sports, but eventually made his way to ESPN, where for 20 years, essentially the point person for that company's digital business. So obviously that means ESPN.com. Everybody knows what happened to that site. Became the world's biggest, certainly most impactful sports media destination.

3:23And I believe, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but under his leadership, ESPN Digital grew like tenfold or twelvefold or something like that. They've written many pieces on sports media for places such as SBJ, consulted on many major deals with many, many people in the sports media space. And then lastly, for a fun fact, John, tell me if I'm right about this. I believe your dad, Edward, was he not the top editor of Newsweek, New York, and Esquire magazine? And on top of that, was the editor-in-chief of Newsweek when the Watergate story and hearings were going on? Yes, and in addition, he was the editor of the New York Daily News.

4:03That was his last assignment during 9-11. So I grew up in a journalist household. Okay, and with that, I welcome Ed Dester and John. Is it Cosner or Kosner? Kosner, right? It's Kosner. It's Kosner. Thank you for asking, Richard. Okay. Yeah, terrible. My research department, which consists of me, should have probably been on that. John Kosner. Welcome, fellas. You've had better answers than this. I should have told you. Sorry. But I appreciate you both being here. All right, let me start. Ed, I'll start with you. One of the things that's interesting to me in checking out your book is it can be both for a commercial audience as well as a textbook for those who are in college who are interested in this space.

4:46There's a, I think there's a skill in being able to write a book which could provide both of those things. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but my take is that you guys were trying to thread that needle. So let's start there. Is it correct? Is it both sort of a textbook for college students as well as kind of your own thoughts on how the business has evolved? Richard, I would say that we focused on three audiences. You're quite correct. We started out focused on the educational market. There are thousands and thousands of students currently enrolled in a sports business or sports management or some sort of sports type curriculum.

5:36And there are no books that really explain the sports media business from the inside perspective, with the exception of things written by, say, an announcer like Al Michaels, or an executive like, say, Bob Iger. So we wanted to be able to tell the inside story of the business and do it for these three audiences. One, the educational. Two, we think that the subject of sports media is not well known even to those who are in the sports business that are involved in other areas. They may be selling tickets. They may be selling sponsorships. They may do basketball ops or something of the like. And everybody depends upon sports media and everyone consumes sports media.

6:33But that doesn't mean that they necessarily understand sports media. So that is that that's another target. And then our third target is what I'd call the hardcore sports market. This isn't for somebody who's just interested in the X's and O's or somebody who's just interested in following their team. But for those people who really want to understand the business that they're huge fans of, this is an insight for them as well. John, let me let me go to you and I'll re-ask the same question in a shorter way. Why did you want to write this book? so um earlier in my career you mentioned cbs sports ed and i also worked together at the nba and during those years mark mccormick who was the founder of img wrote a series of books called what they don't teach you at harvard business school and i found those books really inspiring and helpful when i was a young executive because they were filled with anecdotes about how the business actually operated and how Mark came up with his different strategies.

7:51So I had dreamed of being able to write a book somewhat like that. At the first NBA Cup, which is three years ago, Ed and I were in Las Vegas, and Ed proposed doing the book. And this is kind of how it came together. And one of the driving forces was we have a ton of work experience, a ton of interesting perspective and stories about stuff that happened. We were both inspired in our career by our former boss, the late NBA Commissioner David Stern. And it struck us that if we could bring some of this stuff to life, it could be helpful to a whole set of people in the industry in the same way that Mark's book, I think was similarly helpful to us.

8:42John, let me stick with you. One of the things that was interesting to me, and I imagine a challenge for both you and Ed, is the technology of sports – things within sports media, including technology, changes very, very quickly. Rights changes very, very – rights can change quickly. Talent can change quickly. And were you worried at all about the possibility that the changes in the business could outpace whatever the deadline was on what you were writing? We wanted very much to focus on the here and now and to use historical examples as a way of explaining why things were and what's happening.

9:32and work through a set of different set of theses about the business, including the fact that technology undergirds all of the growth of sports. It's just been a central theme. So our thought is that if you open the book, you'll see lots of examples from 2025 and from 2026. If the book has the kind of connection we hope it does, We're hopeful of doing future editions where we could update different things. We have a website that's available to readers and educators where there'll be updates from time to time. But you're absolutely right. You know, one of the big challenges is writing a book in an era where some of the target audience that Ed mentioned isn't reading that much.

10:28and then for everyone who is reading, how do you make sure that that stays relevant to them? We've written a series of pieces, sort of called Crossing the Rubicon, that make the point that change in sports media is accelerating. All that said, we think that's a rationale for a book like this that can help people sort of understand why things happen and what's likely to happen. Ed, one of the, I'm sure both of you guys have spoken to many colleges as I have. And inevitably the question, one of the first questions that comes up is, can you tell me about what you think the future of sports media is?

11:16Where is an opportunity for me to have a job? And so I think it's essentially impossible, even for you two guys, who have phenomenal experience in the business to sort of specifically say, well, here's what the business is going to be in 2031. But there are probably some broad strokes that both of you have thought about and written about for a while in terms of if you are a young person, what should you be thinking about in terms of potentially having a career in this business? So I'll pose it to you that way. If there's a 21-year-old listening to this podcast and really wants to get into sports media, doesn't necessarily have a specific dream – they don't specifically want to be a play-by-play broadcaster or something bad.

12:02They just want to work in sports. What would you tell them today as we talk in October 2026? We have an entire chapter devoted to answering that question, or at least informing potential aspirants about what they should know. Part of that is very much about giving them perspective into just how challenging it is to get into the sports industry. There's a lot more supply than there is demand. At the same time, it's also providing some tips on things that they can do to give them a better shot and to fish where the fish are. For example, the largest number of jobs in the sports business are in various sales areas.

13:02And so, you know, you may want to be the assistant general manager. But if you want to get your foot in the door, one way to do it is to actually get good at selling tickets or selling sponsorships or selling anything that it is that that a sports enterprise needs to sell. And and that's where you can expect to have for there to be more turnover. That's where you can expect more potential opportunities. They're just playing more jobs in those fields. That's great. Actually, great piece of advice. John, let me go to you. Yeah. John, you feel free to add. Yeah, I just would add because careers are so central to part of the audience of this book.

13:49virtually every chapter has a ending paragraph that's sort of what it means for your career or how you assess. And that's like different types of the business that might be interesting approaches that go into it. So the book is very career oriented. We also include examples of colleagues careers. At the very end of the book, we have separate chapters where Ed and I both lay out sort of like our path and sort of the winding course that sort of led us to where it did. But similar to you, Richard, we get lots and lots of calls from friends and colleagues. Can you talk to this young person who wants to get into business or is trying to figure it out?

14:44And And in certain ways, the book is in part an answer to that. Here's a way of really understanding the business and all sorts of different angles to get into it. So that's very central to the point and premise of the book. Look, you get to a certain age and you want to be a little more serious when it comes to your shirt. Anybody who's worn a dress shirt knows just how uncomfortable it can be and how annoying it is when they bunch up under a sweater. So you must check out Collars & Co., makers of the Dress Collar Polo. Their shirts are four-way stretch, buttery soft polos with firm dress collars on them.

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16:26Hey, football fans. It's Vaughn Miller, Dallas Cowboys linebacker and host of the Free Range podcast, come hang out with me and my guy TJ Banks as we give you the best analysis, insights, and guest interviews from around the league each and every week. New episodes drop each and every Wednesday. Be sure to follow or subscribe to Free Range wherever you get your podcasts. I'm going to stick with you here, John. We'll get into some of the topics that you hit on in the book as well as just broader topics that exist now in sports media. If I'm a consumer, how much will Netflix, Apple TV, and Prime Video be part of my sports life in the 2030s?

17:14I certainly think that Netflix and Amazon specifically are going to be bigger parts of the sports viewing as I suspect YouTube will be. Apple has all this potential. They have the rights still for another couple of years to MLS. They just made a deal for US rights to F1. They have all the capability and budget to be a bigger player. But it's not clear, I don't think, to either Ed or I yet that they have something bigger in mind. One of the things we cover in the book is that you've constantly seen new networks, new businesses get into sports as a way of creating new opportunities. And we really believe over the next decade you will see new entities get into sports.

18:16The reality of the pay television, traditional pay television system and its deterioration means that the existing big players, while they may remain big players, they're going to be challenged by their own business model to stay in. So there's going to be increasing competitors from digital media. The last thing I would add is, as we saw with the NBA, the new NBA deal, when you have an entity like Amazon that's never been in, it's very powerful when they want in. So we believe we'll see more of that. And I'm going to go to you on this. I've had many people on this podcast, very, very smart people, in my opinion for now a number of years who continue to tell me that if they had to bet long-term on one i'll call it a digital player in terms of sports they would bet on youtube in terms of the longest term play they obviously you know gave me their reasons for that but i'm always struck when even in 2026 i see creators start their own youtube um you know a youtube page, YouTube site, and you can get a lot of, I'll call them customers, right?

19:41Or in this case, or, you know, subscribers, but they're really customers in some way, very, very quickly, especially if you have a little bit of a name. And so I understand where they're coming from, not to mention, and I know you both, you guys know this, you talk to any 15 year old, any 12 year old, any 20 year old, they see no, what we think of as TV is YouTube for them. Like they don't they don't make that designation anymore. So I bring this back to you, Ed. Give me your prospects over the next 10 years of what you think YouTube can be within the sports media space.

20:20youtube has the largest share of viewership today so they are in the position to leverage that in in any number of ways they also have this virtuous circle of the more people create content and place it in YouTube. And the more the algorithm goes to work, the more views they get, which causes there to be more content produced and their business model just gets better and better. So they're in a very good position. Now, if you're going to get into the area of of televising live sports. Now you're in a different area. And, you know, they've they have certainly done plenty of that with YouTube TV.

21:19They have, you know, I would say dabbled as it relates to central YouTube. They've done obviously also Sunday Ticket. But but in terms of of going out and bidding for, you know, the NCAA tournament or the U S open or, you know, or the, or, or the NFL, other than a, you know, standalone game, they haven't done that yet. Now, do they have the wherewithal to do it? Yes. Do they have the reach to do it in a big way? Yes. Do they have very unique ways of promoting? Yes. Okay. So it's really up to them if they're going to choose to apply more leverage into that particular space. But I would hasten to mention the guys who are doing it today are Amazon.

22:19And they have bought big ticket item packages of mainstream sports. And they have so many unique ways to monetize it. It's not just subscription money and advertising money. You know, every time they sell a piece of merchandise that relates to that sport, every time they uniquely get additional eyeballs to watch it by virtue of promoting it on the side of their truck or on a box that's delivered to your home, or any time that they use their database, which knows what the toothpaste you use and knows what kind of music you like and what other shows you watch. They've got a wealth of data and they have very unique ways of using it.

23:13And I think that they belong in the conversation along with YouTube. uh not they should not be excluded john i'm going to go to you and i agree with you on that ed i they're the they've their proof of concept in sports now is so high that no no sports league would even hesitate working with them so that's that's a dead-on observation um john we're right on the news on this and i know you and ed have had some thoughts but i'll go to you how will the So Paramount, assuming, let's make the presumption, the Paramount Skydance, Warner Brothers Discovery merger does go through. And at a certain point, we have a company that exists.

23:59They have, at the moment, a significant amount of sports rights. But what is interesting is that in whatever this merged company will be, someone at the end is going to have to make decisions on what sports rights they want and what sports rights they don't. There's two companies merging together, CBS and the Turner brand. It's not like CBS has any history of doing the French Open, like, for example, which is a Turner property. If you had to guess today, and we won't hold you to this, obviously. They used to do the U.S. Open. Used to do the U.S. Open. That's a great point. What do you expect from this company, which will have a lot of sports rights, theoretically a lot of money down the road to bid on sports rights, but probably coming up in the immediate vicinity, maybe they will let go of some of these sports rights.

24:48That's sort of at least my two cents, but I'm curious how you see it. It's a company that is going to take on so much leverage that I actually think they will be more focused on a couple of things, staying in the NFL business, trying to maintain the NCAA basketball championship as opposed to being an expansive player. They could be a powerhouse. We'll have to see how it all plays out. Ed and I wrote a column in the SBJ about a year and a half ago when Netflix and Paramount were both bidding for Warner Brothers Discovery. And we said WBD, excuse me, and we said the winner is going to be the loser.

25:46So I'm not sure exactly what's going to transpire there, but I don't believe they're going to become a significantly bigger player anytime soon. I think they're going to have to sort through putting these two entities together. There's going to be a lot of work to do that. That's interesting. Do you concur on that? Go ahead. Yeah, I do concur. I think they're going to have to pick their spots. I think, you know, the premise of your question was, you know, they're already a sports powerhouse. Well, they actually don't have all that much sports, really. Yes, they have the NCAA tournament. They have the obviously the French Open you mentioned, and they have the NFL.

26:40But, you know, there are plenty of things they don't have. They, I would say, but for those top headline properties are kind of also rands in the sports business at the moment. And they're going to have to make choices. I mean, as John mentioned, they've taken on enormous debt. and that and now they've committed based on the state settlement. They've now committed to spend a billion five, I believe, is the number on producing movies. Well, you know, if you're going to spend a billion five on producing movies, that's a billion five. You don't necessarily have to be buying sports. And, you know, not that I'm I'm saying that that you need to do one or the other.

27:30but you know you you are going to have to decide who you want to be when you grow up and you know this is they're going to grow up fast i'm going to stick with you ed on this one there's a like a tangential uh thought here in terms of the sports rights bubble which for the moment still has not burst but there are people out there who the supposition is the high-end properties like the NFL are always going to get paid, but we are going to finally come to a point where some of these middle tier properties, they're not going to get the money in terms of what people think they're going to get. And every digital player like Netflix, Google, et cetera, et cetera, is not going to bid on everything.

28:17As we're talking today in October of 2026, where do you see the sports rights sort of ceiling bubble, however you want to sort of use that phrase? Well, first, I wouldn't call it a bubble. Okay. If you take a historic perspective, this has been a product line that has been in growth mode, virtually unstopped for four decades. So really, ever since cable was a thing, it has been, you know, up and to the right. And so I don't think it's likely to be a bursting bubble anytime soon. But what we're seeing now is that various of the legacy players are going to be constrained based upon the old business model.

29:15They're not yet really harnessed fully to the new business model of streaming. They're certainly more than dabbling with it. They're committing ever more to it. But they're going to have to make choices, too, just like we were talking about WBD. And that is going to constrain spending in the middle. And exactly who you mean by the middle is open for interpretation. You know, clearly, you know, the upper ends, the NFL's, the NBA's, they are going to continue for the foreseeable future to be highly in demand. And that only drives their rights up. And, you know, we still haven't seen a saturation point for for digital coming in.

30:05And so, you know, let's imagine a day where you have additional spending by a YouTube, for example, that may very well offset cutbacks by others. So I don't I don't see the the upper end abating anytime soon. The middle end, I think, you know, you're probably looking at at flat kinds of deals. You may, you know, each of them may decide they're going to need more partners to keep flat or have some modest growth. There's been a shifting recently among three of the four leagues into more international from what has been historically regional television. Now that the regional business has kind of fallen off a cliff.

30:56So that programming needs to get repatriated somewhere. And I think that's going to cause some dislocation. But again, I don't think that's a bubble. I think that is just the marketplace reacting to changes in its component parts. And we've seen before programming migrate. It's migrated from broadcast TV to cable TV. We're now seeing it migrate from cable TV to a combination of broadcast and streaming. That's nothing new in this industry. John, one of the things you guys say in the book, and I certainly agree, is that sports can't be replicated by artificial intelligence. It's one of the sort of few things that remains very much a communal experience.

31:55You have to watch it live. It's, you know, you can't really, I mean, you could sort of tape it, but it generally speaking doesn't work. We're not, you know, you're not gonna be able to sort of. Hence the name. Yeah, right. Pop in a Gemini or something like that and create a sports experience. If you love sports, it just, it can't be done. That said, one of the questions I'm sure you get this too, that I always get from young people is like, how is AI going to impact the sports media business? And will I have a job in the business with this, you know, with this kind of technology? So I'll ask you that question, like, what are some of the sort of 10 ,000 foot things you think about when it comes to how AI will impact the broader sports business landscape?

32:35And already is impacting it, I understand. Well, we're already, you know, we're already seeing the impact of AI with things like the Hawkeye scoring system in tennis with automated highlight video distribution and creation with the way league schedules are now done. The impact of artificial intelligence on sports, I think AI is really going to commoditize entertainment content. It's going to, as a result, make live events and what makes sports special even more important. We are seeing the effect of AI already, whether it's the Hawkeye scoring system in tennis or creation of sports video highlights and distribution, the way league schedules are now done.

33:21I think it's going to create more opportunities actually for people in sports. There's going to be more personalization, more types of content. I believe overall it's going to be positive. It's also quite possibly going to result in new bidders. It wouldn't shock either Ed or I for an entity like OpenAI to become a rights holder in the next decade. So there's lots to worry or be concerned about in terms of AI in the world and the future of work and the job force. But in sports, it's probably going to be additive. you know dan losing weight can feel a lot like getting so close to the end zone and then losing the ball right before you cross the line winning the game is great but maintaining that success season after season that's where the real challenge lies that's right cesse noom the leading behavior change company pairs glp1 medication with behavioral tools bite-sized daily lessons and coaching to help you build sustainable habits it's like having a full coaching staff to help you lose weight and keep it off, even if you stop the meds.

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35:11Backed by a one-year, no-breakdown guarantee. From the team with over 35 ,000 five-star reviews. For all your heating, plumbing, and electrical needs, you know who to call. For all the right reasons, call 866-FOURSEASONS. yeah i don't know how i feel about ai owning sports but i think that's a pretty smart take just given the the market cap that those companies um have all right a couple more here and then uh and then also also richard richard yeah richard just one last thought you know our premise of the book and what's driving a lot of development of sports is advertising you cannot build a scale advertising business today without sports that's why netflix which originally wasn't going to do ads and wasn't going to do sports, is expanding its sports.

36:01So any entity that wants to have a scale advertising business needs to be in sports. That's going to drive a lot of the development of it, including potentially AI companies, which are going to get into advertising as well. All right. A couple more here and some fun ones. I'll let you guys go. Ed, what should keep Jimmy Pataro up at night?

36:29he needs to confront the decline in the pay tv bundle um he has done so thus far by focusing attention on his new streaming service um but i don't know if that will be enough And so I think he's got to deal with the realities of the broader business. And I think that may drive him to have to make choices that he'd rather not make. But that's why he gets the big bucks. John outside of the sort of big four sports or big five sports you know you know NFL college football NBA MLB and you know put put put put the NHL wherever else you want there give me for you in the 2030s a sport that you think is undervalued right now that could really be an interesting sport in 2030?

37:39The WNBA. And, you know, Richard, you have a big background in covering women's basketball. I was watching some of the playoff games last night and the quality of play, the athleticism, it's all beginning to come together. WNBA faces a challenge in terms of when its season is played, but a lot of the things that Ed and I hoped for at the inception of this, because we go way back with this property, it's happening. And I think Ed agrees. We believe it's undervalued. Yeah, actually, as you were asking the question, Richard, I was thinking the same thing that just came out of John's mouth. Ed, let me go to you.

38:29For the next NFL contract, whenever they cut that deal, for however long they cut that deal, will a streamer get a Super Bowl?

38:45We think that assuming things continue as they have been, that someone like Amazon is in a position to have a Super Bowl, say, in the mid-2030s. So, yes. I mean, remember, we're looking down the barrel of ESPN now having its first Super Bowl. And it's the fact is that Amazon has more subscribers than ESPN does today. So it's quite conceivable and perhaps even likely as as the world of broadcasting is just not what it used to be. John, let me ask you an opinion, something about your old employer. You guys don't always – you generally – when you guys write and when I hear you guys, you're almost always talking about broader issues and not talent.

39:53But I do want to ask you a question and just get your thoughts on one talent-related question. What's very clear about ESPN – and you're also seeing this at some of the other – some of their competitors as well – is that they've invested significant money in a handful of talents, whether it's McAfee, Stephen A. Smith, Scott Van Pelt, Mike Greenberg, Joe Buck, Trey Aikman. And on this podcast, I've talked about this many times that there's a penthouse sort of world that exists. And the middle, if you want to call it the middle class within this world is getting sort of smaller. And then there's obviously entry level people.

40:30Understanding all of these are still first world kind of problems and everybody's salary is way higher than your average American. But I wanted to get your take, John, if you think this trend continues when it comes to these sports networks where they will invest significant amounts of money in a smaller and smaller handful of people, and then everybody else sort of gets what they can get depending on what they do and their agent and et cetera, et cetera. I prefer the model of ESPN that I joined in 1997, where nobody was bigger than the mothership. And there was a really wealthy, there's a real wealth of young talent, all of whom I think were being paid less than they thought they deserved, but hungry and talented.

41:21And that group of people built the network. Going to a sort of network model of a few really well-known, well-paid announcers is certainly an approach. We see it frequently in the business, but I prefer the old ESPN approach. all right we'll finish up with this and i'm going to give you an nba question to all your long-term experience with the uh with the nba um i i'm a fan of the sport so i will watch an nba game whether it's december whether it's june whether it's october there are certainly a lot of people who make the argument that there is too much inventory that um you know that you're not getting players playing in all 84 games 82 games and it's just too much of a slog and that's the reason why you know the viewership of the uh of the games in the middle of the season can be down i want to ask you just what you think of the nba model right now nationally in terms of multiple partners obviously a very very long season and for them the hope that even if the regular season feels a little diminished, the playoffs can still be spectacular.

42:40And the one thing I will just know for this audience, as they know, is their last finals. And some of this obviously was because the Knicks obviously won. It's an amazing story. Really put up a massive viewership number in 2025.

42:58So I know pundits love to complain about the length of the NBA season. the reality is I got involved with the NBA starting in 1977. Wow. And they've had the same number of regular season games since then. So, and back then the teams used to travel commercially and they had to take, you know, the flight at 6am to get to the next game. And And they played more back-to-backs and occasionally three games and three nights. And I would say that the schedule was far more grueling back then than it is today. Now they're very conscious about spacing things out. They even have back-to-back home days so that teams can maximize the amount of time where they can sleep in their own beds.

43:54I, you know, I recognize that if at some level the travel is a rigorous demand of the job and the schedule is tough, but I don't see either the players nor the owners being all that motivated to give up revenue, which is what would be necessary in order to shorten the season. The NHL is going the other direction. They've added games to the season this year. So I don't place a lot of credence in that. I mean, it's sort of an easy argument to make.

44:37And actually, the whole thing about, you know, load management is a relatively recent phenomenon. In the old days, everybody played every game unless, you know, they literally couldn't walk. So we're in a, you know, maybe that speaks to the, you know, the generation of the players these days or the differences in media. I'm not exactly sure. But I do think that the NBA is in a great position. It has an increasingly appreciated product. I go to games and I have to say the caliber and the speed and the physicalness and the finesse of these players is jaw-dropping. And I think that, unfortunately, a lot of that doesn't get conveyed in media representations of the game because you're not quite appreciating the speed and the physicality.

45:48But this is a tremendous product. And there's a reason that the NBA has achieved the status it has achieved. Back when I started with the NBA, the NBA was at best a second class league. You wouldn't say that today. You mentioned the NBA today in the same breath with the NFL. No, they're not the NFL. And in some respects, not not even close. But they're there. They are as professional as the NFL. They're certainly more worldly than the NFL. And I've been liking what I'm seeing. So, you know, yes, they've got more partners. Yes, they're adapting to changes. They're having to deal with regional TV changes.

46:38All that is the nature of the beast. But but they're smart people. They work very hard and they will figure it out.

46:49And I will say, Ed, given NBA TV here in Toronto is very, very valuable. We get both NBA and WNBA live game inventory here. So it is a valuable channel to have in Canada. The book is We're Live Inside the Big Business of Sports Media. The book is out on October 1st. You get this anywhere you get books, including online, the Amazons of the world, and everywhere else. And again, it is recommended if you are interested in the space as well as if you are a student who ultimately would like to pursue some kind of job in the capital S, capital M sports media. As Ed mentioned at the beginning of this podcast, there's multiple audiences for this book.

47:38Fellas, I wish you the best of luck. um you know i'll say publicly whenever i have needed um some very high level analysis of some of the stuff i've worked on you guys have always answered my emails and answered them quickly i will add and i cannot uh i cannot thank you enough so i wish uh i wish you the best on this book and uh thank you so much for joining me today on the sports media podcast richard a pleasure thank you richard chatting with you and we always enjoy thinking about your uh your your issues and i would just uh tell your listeners um we're live book.com is where they can find out more about the book uh and uh see the table of contents and learn a little bit more about us yeah i saw that stick around john and ed as i as i as i lead us out of this podcast.

48:32If you enjoy these conversations, and again, Google both my guests' names, you'll see, obviously, in addition to just what they've done career-wise, they've done a lot of writing on this subject, including, obviously, one of the places I'm working for right now, SBJ. And it's always interesting. And they're really very perceptive and thoughtful on this stuff. So check that out. Again, if you like these conversations, head to the archives. We just had Jeff Cameron on, who's the director of the excellent NFL film short on Dennis Miller. Highly recommend that. That was very, very well done. Troy Aikman was on this podcast September 20th.

49:08Got a lot of attention, obviously, because he talked about his contract. Damian Woody was on this podcast September 15th. Susie Colbor on September 10th. And obviously, we have done many, many roundtables now at this point on what CBS may or may not do involving Tony Romo and then other issues in terms of college football and the NFL and the start of the NHL season, et cetera. reviews and star ratings are always welcome. So thank you for that. I want to thank my guests, of course, my producer, James Jackson, everybody to Odyssey for their support. And most of all, thank you for listening. We'll see you soon on the Sports Media Podcast.

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