Jimmy Traina on Tony Romo's future and other sports media topics. Plus, Liz Robbins on her new book with Billie Jean King.

0:00Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin? Or what that clunking sound from your dryer is? With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews, all on the app. Download today.

0:31Welcome to the Sports Media Podcast. I'm your host, Richard Dutch. My producer is James Jackson. Two guests on this episode, two very different conversations. Jimmy Trena, he's been on here before many times, is up first. He is a podcast host and writer for Underscore Media. He will tell us about how that's going. He just had a big first interview with Alex Rodriguez, who he's criticized in the past. So that actually could be a pretty interesting interview. And then we get into a lot of stuff, including Tony Romo's statement and where we think that is sitting at right now with CBS and Romo, some college football stuff as well.

1:08We also debate Dunkin' Donuts' menu. I don't know how we got into that, but perhaps you'll find that interesting. Jimmy Trena is followed by Liz Robbins, a longtime journalist, well-known writing sports for the New York Times, where she covered basketball and tennis. She has a new book out with Billie Jean King titled See It to Be It, 11 Champions Leading Women's Sports Today. That includes stories of Caitlin Clark, Naomi Osaka, and many others. And Liz interviewed all of these people for this book. So she had 45 minutes with Caitlin Clark, which is not an easy thing to get. And that is a book for all ages, basically 12 to 105 or something like that.

1:53But a very cool collaboration between one of the greats of all time, and Billie Jean King, and a really, really accomplished writer in Liz Robbins. So Jimmy Trena up first, followed by Liz Robbins, coming up on the Sports Media Podcast.

2:07Drink up, baby. Fantasy Football Happy Hour is here to get you wins and have some laughs. Matthew Barry here and my podcast Fantasy Football Happy Hour has the sleepers bust and start sit advice you need to win your league. We're diving into the tape we're crunching the numbers to bring you sleepers bust weekly start sit advice whether you're defending a title or desperately avoiding last place I've got you covered every single weekday. The bar is open it's Fantasy Football Happy Hour with Matthew Barry wherever you get your podcasts and as I said at the top excited to bring in Jimmy Trina. His first, I believe this is his first appearance after he's gotten content out for Underscore Media.

2:49He is, of course, a podcast host and writer for Underscore Media. Left Sports Illustrated, as I mentioned last month. After 20 years there, you can sign up for Trina Thoughts wherever you get your podcast. That is the name of the podcast. According to the bio, he says a train of thoughts is your front row seat to conversations with the biggest name in sports media. Jimmy, did you come up with that tag? I don't even know where that is. Where are you reading that? I believe that I believe that's on your literally on where I sign up for the podcast on like iTunes or something. Oh, like Apple. So you did not write that.

3:25No, I didn't even know that was the line. So you don't even get to like you don't even have to sign off on that language. I mean, does anyone read that nonsense? I sign off on what people are going to read and see. Okay. Well, first of all, welcome. You know, you give me such a nice intro. You have me on here to promote my stuff. So I feel bad busting your balls. But I do want people to know, like, you lie right off the bat. What did I say? As I said on the top. Why don't you tell people you're doing the intro after the interview? You didn't say anything. I'm happy to tell people that. This is the top.

3:58Yeah. This is this is the I'm I always try to be transparent on this in many podcasts that I've done and probably you as well. You might tape the intro or outro after you do the interview. Always. I don't always do it. But in this case, because I have a second guest coming on later today, I'd rather hear what you have to say. Second guest, who's Liz Robbins, by the way, longtime journalist, and then do an intro, which sort of comes off a little bit better. I'm going to try to bring it because we're taping this at nine o 'clock in the morning. I'm not well right now. I'm not well. So I'm going to try to bring because the last.

4:35The only reason I'm doing the only reason I'm even doing this ridiculous episode is just to give you promotion. There's no other reason. Why are you being so nice? I mean, I actually admire anybody, not just you, anybody who's sort of trying to do something new and like trying to, especially after, you know, because I can relate to it, especially after a long career at one place. it's not like it's also not like this podcast is going to game change anything for you oh you never know listen if i get one subscriber out of this that changes the game you'll get one you'll get at least one subscriber out of this i'll make that promise i'm gonna try to bring it because the last time i was on i had an a-plus performance because i predicted the nfl preseason game would be the field of dreams game the time before that when i was on i got a lot of shit from people because you were nice enough to have me on.

5:23You wanted to talk about the World Cup. I said I didn't watch that. Then you wanted to talk about Home Run Derby. I said I didn't watch that. And people were furious that I don't watch these fake events. Well, the World Cup's a real event. Home Run Derby is a fake event. And I have to say, looking back, I think it was a mistake, and I sort of regret not getting into the World Cup. I should have done that. That was a mistake. I will never watch. It's just absurd. You're a sports media writer, and some of the things you don't watch, it's absurd. Well, I will not watch Home Run Derby. But the next World Cup I'll watch and I'll get into it.

5:51And I will try to bring it for you today. Watch the Women's World Cup in 2027, which is on Netflix, which is also an interesting sport. Well, that's you. You might have lost me there with Netflix. My point is you're very they're just certain you're too rigid, I guess. I agree. I agree 100 percent. All right. Let's move on. Thankfully. Oh, no. First, before I get to Tony Romo, let me let me get a little bit of promotion for you. So you have started this, obviously. Tell the listeners exactly what they can get now with the Jimmy training experience. Well, the official launch is supposed to be on Tuesday, September 8th, day after Labor Day, day before the NFL season starts.

6:31But I did not want to be silent for like four weeks. So I did my first podcast for Underscore Media under the new Trainer Thoughts name last week. I did it with Sal Licata. The reception to that was tremendous because people seemed relieved that we kept that segment the same when we were doing it at Sports Illustrated. We're going to do it as just a show, a weekly show with underscore. And we kept it the same. So people were very nice. And the response was tremendous. And then obviously at SI, we did the interview every week with someone in sports media. You obviously are regular. And again, I didn't want to wait.

7:07And I wanted to really on the eighth, when we launch, have an NFL guest since the NFL season will be starting that week. So I wanted to do something different for this week. and I had never had A-Rod on before. And I had taken a lot of shots at A-Rod over the years. So I thought that could be an intriguing first guest. So that out Wednesday, the podcast with A-Rod on YouTube and Apple, Spotify, and everywhere you get your pods. Okay, good promotion. Let's get into it a little bit. You have knocked A-Rod for years, maybe decades. So how on earth is Alex Rodriguez coming on your podcast? Now, you have privately told me that Alex Rodriguez has listened to your podcast and is a fan of the sports media podcasts.

7:48You might even have said that he's listening. That's what he said. That's what I'm not sure I believe that. But the fact is, he's on your podcast, which is unbelievable. He knows that you've you've drilled them before. So how does this come about? Yes.

8:04Well, so I can give you what happened and then I can give you what I think. So what happened was I had knocked him on a podcast. This was probably a year ago, I think. Almost a year ago, because you know what? It was his documentary was coming out. So about a year ago, I had knocked him on a podcast and he had reached out and asked if I would be willing to chat with him. And you know this from what you do. You have to do that when you do what we do. If you knock someone or you critique someone and it doesn't have to be nasty. You can offer a fair criticism. You do it. I do it when we you know, that's what we get paid to do.

8:44You always speak to the person and, you know, give them a chance to decide. So I had no problem having a conversation with him. We chatted for about a half an hour. It was a great conversation. He he couldn't have been nicer. given that, you know, I had ripped him. And I explained to him that my issues with him over the years, first of all, had absolutely nothing to do with steroids. I couldn't care less about steroids because my take is everyone from that era did them. So I'm not going to just single out one guy. My issue was more the Yankee stuff, the Derek Jeter stuff. And, you know, he understood that.

9:20And his whole point of his documentary, how is that there's two. Did you watch his documentary, by the way? A little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't watch the whole thing. But But yeah, I mean, I understand that. I know the premise of it. I thought it was excellent because it was what I saw was pretty good. I agree. It was well done. He was very honest in it. And he talks about there's a ride and there's Alex Rodriguez. So we had that conversation. And I'm never I'm usually not a fan of I think we may have talked. We've talked about this. I think I'm not a fan of like start a fight with someone and then have them on your podcast.

9:52I hate that nonsense. Yeah, but it's usually it's a little performative if you do that. Right. But this wasn't start of fight. I had taken shots over the years. I never thought he would hear us hear them. And then I did a podcast in April at the start of the Major League Baseball season with Gary Cohn, Ron Darling and Keith Hernandez, the SNY crew. Yeah, I remember that. That's good. And he sent me. I just got a text message from Christopher Chavez, former colleague, enjoying the A-Rod interview. So there you go. As we speak about. Nice. You know, Chris Chavez. Of course. It's mad. Give him a plug.

10:22Anyway. Right. And he sent me a very, very, very nice text about the pod I did with the Mets guys and he enjoyed it. And we went back and forth and we texted a little bit about the Yankees. And when I started this new venture at Underscore Media, I'm like, I got to come out of the gate strong. Like, yes, I can go to my reliables. I can have someone on I've had before. You know, there are great guests that, you know, are great. You know, Joe Buck is a great guest. Scott Van Pelt is a great guest. My guys, you know, Kyle, Brian, Peter Schrager, I could do sports media with you. People are going to, they love that stuff.

10:58But I wanted to do something different. I was thinking out of them. And I said, it's baseball season. I've never had A-Rod on. No one would expect me to have him on because like you said, if you follow me on Twitter, you know I've taken shots. So I said, let's see if that can happen. Now, a funny backstory on that is I sent him a text. It was blue. it went through but it never said delivered that was on a wednesday never heard anything friday i check still blue but still not delivered so i was telling people i think maybe block me i don't i wouldn't blame him he has every right to block me i sent him another text on friday blue not delivered and then i started thinking of another guest and that's sunday morning at like 10 30 he responded to me and was in from the beginning so he was very gracious very generous he should you know he didn't have to come on and the first five minutes of the podcast we talk about me taking shots at him and him coming on the show even though i've done that all right so so you so you would say interesting conversation for people who are going to listen i assume you talked about did you talk about baseball or his owners sports ownership stuff like that he gave me an hour.

12:11Wow. So we covered a ton of stuff. He told me he had conversations with LeBron, trying to recruit LeBron to the Timberwolves. That's cool. Interesting. Gave me some John Sterling stories. Talked about, you know, Michael Kay had this idea recently that he thinks A-Rod should come back for one at bat. So his Hall of Fame eligibility resets. So I asked him about that. He was not a fan of that idea at all. You know, got into him working at Fox. how nervous he was when he started and Kevin Burkhardt had to calm him down got into the Dodgers with the payroll yeah work stoppage the pain of oh four he has two daughters in college one's going to Michigan so I asked him how he feels about her not getting grades anymore you have Michigan ties what do you think Michigan now they don't give grades is that the deal what's going on Richard I'm actually not positive about that yeah I mean I'm a sort of a Walmart Wolverine in that I was there for a year on a journalism fellowship.

13:06So I don't have any specific degree. I don't know if I have any thoughts. Actually, I have to read the story. So there are no – not even pass-fail? I think it's pass-fail. I don't mind pass-fail, actually. I mean because great – because I think in the AI era, don't you think it's pretty easy now to manipulate grades? Yes. So I feel like maybe pass-fail is even a little bit better. Grad school, my grad school was Passivelle, which I like. Right, right. So, yeah, so that was the conversation. All right, so that's good. All right, so this actually sounds very, very interesting. Now, do you want to announce – you probably don't want to give away who your first NFL guest was.

13:43No, no, no, no. Okay, but that will be a fairly big name. We hope so. Oh, it's not booked yet. It's not Tony Romo. Well, yeah, I know, but it's not – the guest is not booked yet or the guest is booked yet? It's not Jim Nance. Well, yeah, I know. By the way, I don't know if you've done this too. I have been in touch with CBS to try to get some – I'm sure they were full of comments for you. No commenting on the Romo stuff. But I want to see who I can get for this podcast to start the NFL season, and they're not necessarily making a lot of people available right now. Well, can you blame them? I mean if you have J.J.

14:20Watt on, you're going to ask him about Romo. Same thing with Nance, right? Ian Eagle, same thing. The problem for them is every question, not every question, but questions have to be asked about Romo of people who are not Romo. If they gave you Adam Archuleta, would you ask him a Romo question? Yes. There you go. I think you have to. It's not like I'm trying to put Adam Archuleta in a jackpot. I think you have to ask. So if anyone from CBS PR is listening to this, give me the CBS guests before you give them to Richard because he's ready to bombard them with Romo questions. All right. So let's talk about Romo real quick.

14:52He came out, obviously, with a statement following his no contest plea to OWI. And what really got – no need to go over everything. I think people know what happened with Romo. They've seen the video, et cetera. You have your own opinions on OWI. Obviously, it's terrible to be driving drunk in any capacity. I think most sort of – hopefully, most people agree with that statement. But the thing that was kind of of note, Jimmy, was that Tony Romo expressed interest, obviously, in returning to CBS. CBS still has no commented. Now, again, a lot of people sort of in the industry who are going to be like, oh, if CBS really wanted him back, they'd put out a comment saying we can't wait for Tony to come back.

15:38I don't think it's that cut and dry. There's sort of still a lot of a lot of contract issues, legal issues. they you know you have to sort of navigate what's going to happen to romo over the next couple weeks so i i remain i you know i've heard oran and marshann and a lot of other people sort of say do you think he'll be back or not and initially i was like i i think he will be back for sure then my thought process after the cbs um seminar and stuff was like hmm i don't know i don't know about this um i'm now sort of back in the camp of if i had to guess if you're asking me if i had to guess i think he'll be back i couldn't tell you if he'd be back on the number one team but i think at some point he will be back on cbs i'm not basing on any reporting i'm sort of just basing it on tea leave guessing but i could definitely turn out to be wrong on that and i've already flipped for twice how do you see it it's funny because i sort of had the same reaction as you When the story first came out, I thought, okay, maybe a suspension for a game or two.

16:46They'll do the fake apology, maybe the fake rehab thing, and then he'll be back. Then it became clear. I think once that video came out, he was going to be in bigger trouble.

16:59And nothing was said at that CBS seminar in early August in terms of his future, but the vibes and the feelings were like, this isn't good. Now, I don't think CBS is going to put J.J. Watt in the number one role as they had and then yank him out. I think once J.J. – now, a lot of this will depend on chemistry that Jen Nance has with J.J. Watt. So, does Tony come back and they put him on the number two team with Iron Eagle? Wouldn't shock me. do I think maybe that statement was, if CBS doesn't bring me back, we'll have a lawsuit? Possibly. Yeah. I don't think Tony Romo's broadcasting career should be over because of this.

17:50I agree. Far, far, far from the first broadcaster to have a DUI or DWI, OWI, whatever you want to call it. I mean, the biggest names working have had issues with that, not justifying it, but I don't like one mistake and you're done unless the mistake is something you really can't come back from. You know, you say a slur or something like that. That's a whole different ballgame. Yeah. Or if or if or if God forbid someone had been hurt seriously in an O.W. Oh, of course. But my point is, if he's saying like he has a problem with alcohol and he's going to try to work on himself and get that fixed, I'm not sure what more he's supposed to do like that.

18:35You know, if he would have said, OK, this was a one time thing and, you know, and blew it off, then you think, OK, maybe he's not learning a lesson here. But if you just go by his statement, it seems like he's aware that there's some issues that he's got to take care of. So because that's the case, I don't think you just throw him and throw him away. And listen, if he left CBS, I think another network would hire him, especially now that you have Prime out there. Herb Street's contract is up after this year. Netflix is there. You know, there's places for him to land. I, to be honest, like I know you're supposed to come on here and like give an answer and have that take.

19:07I don't know what's going to happen with him. No, that's the take. I agree. Right. If you tell me CBS says we're done with Tony Romo, I wouldn't be surprised. If you tell me, all right, Romo's going to be back week six with Jim Nance, I wouldn't be surprised. If you said Romo's going to come back, but he's going to work with Iron Eagle, I wouldn't be surprised. Yeah. But I don't think – the one thing I would say is I would be surprised if CBS is going to start jerking J.J. Watt back and forth, back and forth. I think they're going to leave – I can't – I would be surprised if they messed with J.J., you know, pulled him off of that crew.

19:39I think week three is a big week, too, for CBS because they have that Brazil game, Cowboys and Ravens. so I think if JJ gets past that like I can't see them removing him but you never know they're paying Tony you know and the thing that is the fact in this which is not my world it's more of the worlds of the over-ands of the Martian is how much money he's being paid and legalities of contracts and all that I that is out of my league yes they're paying him a lot of money were they going to pay him a lot of money to sit and do nothing that would surprise me so who knows what's going to happen all right so a couple things there um one I think I think some of this has to do with how J.J.

20:14Watt is with Nance, as you said, and how he's going to be good. Like J.J. Watt's going to be good. Had a had a had a had a person tell me, you know, sort of who's in the business to say, you know, what if it what if what if Watts a bust? You know, how does that change the calculation for a chance of that? Yeah, I don't expect I don't expect that. I don't expect that either. You mentioned the money. It's a lot of money. And like if they do part, CBS is going to you're gonna have to pay some kind of settlement you have to sort of settle where the money is and you're paying money to somebody to walk away as opposed to using them in some form or fashion i don't know tony's contract well enough to know that if he's working at cbs he get he is guaranteed the number one spot so that's another part of the contractual spot and then as you said too you know in terms of morality clauses and stuff like that how does like this incident um how does this incident fit in fit into that um i don't think romo has been as bad as his worst critics say okay and also and i i'll take the hit on this romo also wasn't as great as his sort of flag waivers said and i was one of those flag waivers at the beginning because i thought he was revolutionary for his first two years i still think he's a good broadcaster like i'm not not knocking the guy marcia and i disagree on this and that that's cool and you know i respect that But when he does a game with Nance, generally speaking, I still enjoy that broadcast.

21:38I don't think he's nearly as good as Aikman. I do think he's probably stepped back a little bit, but he still is an A broadcaster, at least from my ears. So that's what's interesting in all this, Jimmy, is that what does CBS think and how does CBS evaluate Romo? And do they think he is still that kind of broadcaster or do they think he slipped to the point where like, you know, why would we pay all this money to a guy we think is now a number three or number two? It'll be very, very interesting, like you said, when if we get to October and there's been and they say nothing or they've said nothing, then I start to think, OK, maybe he's not coming back.

22:18So the last thing we'll do on Romo is do you think there's a week where like sort of is the demarcation week where it's kind of like, OK, if Tony's not back, my thought is like week four or five. There's not some announcement or something. Then it feels like to me he's gone for the year. It's an arbitrary number, but that's sort of how I see it. Yeah, I would agree with that. I can't see that. You're not going to pull J.J. Watt week eight. Like it just makes no sense. No, I agree. Yeah. So I agree. I think week four or five, like you said. And the other fact in this, which we haven't mentioned, because of J.J.

22:50getting bumped up with Jim Nance, they have the new number two crew with Ian and Ross Tucker. So now they've worked together. One of the things I learned at that CBS Media Day is they've called about 20 games together, Ross Tucker told me. So you would think there's some chemistry there. There's some comfort there. But let's say they think that booth isn't working. Maybe fans don't warm up to Ross Tucker. They have Tony. See, I think Tony with Ian could actually be a great crew. I haven't agreed that. I actually think we both work with Ross at SI. I think Ross knows his stuff. He's always worked hard.

23:25He's done a great job at Westwood One, so I would love to see him do well. Right. But I have to be honest. I think Romo and Eagle, in terms of personality, are actually a better fit than Romo and Nance. I agree. Because Romo and Ian Eagle have a closer sense of humor. Would you agree the Nansen role? Yes, absolutely. And this has nothing to do even with Ross Tucker's sort of abilities, because Romo is making a lot of money. And in terms of name recognition, Tony Romo versus Ross Tucker is not. It's not close, not close. So I I'm very intrigued by the possibility of maybe Romo going to the number two crew with with Ian.

24:07And again, you know, someone's going to say, well, his contract means he says he has to be number one or they're not going to pay him number one money to be a number two. Like, I get all that. I'm just I'm just doing like sort of fantasy booking here in terms of wrestling speak that you love. By the way, one of a couple of things that we'll get at it. I believe CAA reps both Romo and JJ. So that's kind of interesting in terms of of how of how that happens. And then the other factor, I think, and it's a real factor is and I don't know the answer to this. I don't think you do, too. What does the NFL think on all this?

24:40Because the reality is like, you know, we'll let people inside the curtain a little bit. The NFL essentially has to approve these broadcasters going on air. They don't make the hire per se. But if the NFL does not want you on the air for whatever reason, you are not going on their airwaves, even though those airwaves are CBS or NBC. I would think at this point, Romo, because he's been in that prominent spot for a long time must have allies in the NFL office. And so this would be the time. Well, Jerry Jones came out and I think defended Tony. Oh, I didn't see that. But that's the kind of thing where it's like if the Jerry Joneses and the Robert Crafts and people like that come out and say, we would like Tony back in the booth.

25:21I think Tony goes back in the booth in some form or fashion. Yeah, I think the NFL can I think CBS will know what if the NFL doesn't want. I think it's more about what the NFL doesn't want. Like, if Tony Romo goes to get rehab or gets help, cleans up his act, and CBS brings him back, I don't see the NFL having a big problem with that. I agree. I agree. Also, lastly, how do you like this one for a scenario? Let's say Tony's gone from CBS, okay? You see Fox swoop in, go Brady, Brady, Romo. Let's say Olsen went somewhere, like he goes to Amazon or something like that for the Herbstreet spot. But yeah, I could definitely see that.

26:03Imagine that Brady and Romo and Breeze as your one, two, three in some. Breeze is not that good, so I don't. But he's if he's their number three, I'm saying that's three very famous. He's not moving the needle for anybody. I think Fox loves Breeze. They're very high on him. I think we I don't want to speak to you. I would be shocked if Greg Olson is not at Amazon next year. Shocked. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I think Amazon. I think Amazon will absolutely offer him a, you know, I should like, again, I should be careful about sort of making these big proclamations. If the Amazon job opens, I would imagine Greg Olson is far and away the number one candidate.

26:49Right. Now, if the Amazon job opens, I agree with you, Greg Olson's the number one candidate. But if Tony Romo's not with CBS, he's a candidate also then for that job. I would agree. Now, the question, if you're Olsen, that you have to ask is, is the Amazon number one job better than the Fox number two job? I think it is because you do get a playoff game. And if Foxy just gets one playoff game, too, because he's on the number two crew. So you get a playoff game and you have a standalone game every week. He doesn't have a standalone game. And you're probably getting more money because you're number one.

27:22Right. Absolutely. the thing for NFL fans if you're into this sort of stuff that we're into it's really next year that's going to be fun because Olsen's contract is up at Fox, Herbstreet's contract is up at Amazon I would imagine this would probably be the last year for Al, we don't know it, he hasn't said anything but that job could be open, now you throw in what's going on here with Romo and CBS I think has the Super Bowl next year, so that's another factor in all this that we should have mentioned Marsha mentioned that a lot and I agree with him there it's a factor yeah yeah all right well Peter Raskin who's Greg Olson's agent's listening shoot me a text and let me know if the what's the better job here um see I don't know Amazon or CBS I I need to know you're from your from your perspective he's good Raskin is Greg Olson's agent he's listening I'm trying to have any messages for Greg Olson but I don't really you can probably get the Greg Olson's generally speaking very If you make the request through Fox, he's very good at that stuff.

28:21He'll do – he does stuff. No, I'm a Greg Olson fan. Who isn't? He's excellent. He's excellent on the air. And he's actually, in my opinion, in terms of the Brady stuff, could not have sort of acted better in terms of just being thoughtful to Tom and saying, hey, I still want to be number one. But I understand it's Tom Brady. He's going to be a number one. Could not have handled it sort of in a more thoughtful, classy way. All right. Last one before I get you out of here, and people will be not expecting. Why are we in such a rush? Why are you getting me out of here? I feel like we just started.

28:51We're 27 minutes in. How long do you want to go? 35? Because I have another guest. Normally, I would go 50 minutes with you, but I do want to get another guest into this one. I mean, I have a note here. Like, who's the five? Oh, you know what? Yeah, I do have one. I have two more things for you, one more sports media thing. Like, what's your broad thoughts on ESPN's really stepping into college football? and trying to, you know, sort of like from the busing with the boys to Josh Pate to, I mean, obviously McAfee at this point is, I don't think you can argue. He's the, he is their most prominent on air figure, far surpassing Stephen A at this point.

29:27But they're really, you know, they're really going for it in terms of college, college football. It's probably a smart strategy because I think in some ways they probably have in when college football is not happening. They haven't talked about it probably as much as they could have. Yeah, I don't understand that take. And I'm glad you brought this up because I've been out of the sports media loop for a couple of weeks here getting this new show going. But I saw Kirk Herbstreet say that he thinks ESPN doesn't talk enough about college football. And I'm just like, I don't understand that take at all.

29:57I feel like Kirk Herbstreet there fell into the trap of basing everything ESPN does off of first take. Like first take doesn't do a lot of college football, but they do – Like McAfee does a ton of college football. They have Game Day, the most popular like studio show outside of inside the NBA. They have Herbstreet. They have a million college football analysts. I didn't understand. And if you're going to do it like, well, they don't talk about college enough compared to the NFL. Well, no shit. I mean, you could basically do NFL 24-7. My sense is, this is just a sense. My sense is that the Herbstreit comparison and others would probably be more like, why don't you talk about college football as much to talk about the NBA?

30:39Maybe. Is that the thought? Well, I don't know. Again, like they have. They have the rights to the NBA. It's a it's a massive social media sport. I mean, they're going to talk and it's also draw and also the stuff that happens like off the court for NBA fans is generally more interesting. A lot of times on the courts that they love to trade stuff. They love the fashion. Maybe it's because I live in New York and it's not a college football hotbed. It's part of it. But I've never thought of ESPN as snubbing college football. And I've always thought ESPN – to me, ESPN is synonymous with college football.

31:16They have the best announcers. They have the most games. I think they blow Fox away when it comes to the coverage. They have the national championship game. And they have college game day. They've had Lee Corso, Kirk Herbstreet. Like, I don't understand the theory that that that ESPN has snubbed college football. Listen, you want to add in Boston with the boys, Josh Pate? OK, good. That's there's that there's nothing but positives there. I don't know if it was a concerted effort. Like, let's cover more college football. I think it was more like let's cater to the younger crowd that is into McAfee and into Boston.

31:52Yeah, no, I business strategy. I think it's smart. I think they're trying to appeal to 18 to 35 year olds, many men, particularly in the south. And I think that does bad beats every week. College Scott Van Pelt and Stanford Steve do more college football. I don't watch intentionally a ton of first take. And I can't say I've really watched a ton of get up lately. But I'm guessing like, do they they don't talk college football in a non college football time. Right. Like in June, those shows are not doing college football. Maybe that's the streets. But here's the other thing. Do you want shows to talk about something like?

32:30Let me see how I'm trying to phrase this, not in a mean way, but I'll just do it in a mean way. I don't want to hear Stephen A. Smith on college football. I don't think he probably watches one play on a Saturday. So why do you want first take to talk about college football? again like like you i'm from new york and so like i'm not you know neither of us like grew up like in you know baton but i watch every game every saturday i'm there i'm just saying like herb street is part of that world so he's going to say that but i would say is like there's a lot of sports that can make that claim like i i obviously have massive contacts in women's basketball and like that's they never get any generally speaking they get very rare coverage on the get-ups in the first take unless there's some kind of kate and clark controversy or something like that so a lot hockey you want to talk to hockey fans they you know until the espn got the contract back they were in the wilderness so i would say like i kind of understand where herp tree's coming from only in the sense that like they it is one of the three biggest sports the espn and if you and if you go on the sec network right or the acc network i mean there's a million places where you can get college football talk you just remind me they've pulled feinbaum on every single day Yeah.

33:41And then you're going to tell me they undercover college football? I don't get it. I don't get it at all. All right. Anyway, I got another six minutes out of you. So that's really. How are the tempo doing? Horrible. They're they're they're I think they're 11 and 29. The WNBA is on break, by the way, for the FIBA FIBA World Cup. I talked about that with A-Rod. Oh, you did? A-Rod's into it. He is very into the Lynx. Yes. Well, they're great. They're the best team in the league. He should be into the Lynx. And I told him that the other night I wanted to bet an MLB U.S. Open WNBA parlay. And I saw there were no WNBA games for like six days.

34:15I asked him what the hell that was about. What was the U.S. what was the part of the tennis part of that bet? Well, there was no bet. I didn't do it because there was no WNBA. But I mean, I've been dabbling with the tennis here and there. Usually parlays. I mean, parlays seem to be a sucker bet, though, right? Oh, absolutely. They're the worst bet you can make. Do you bet? You know, I know you're a big, far bigger gamble than I ever will be. Do you bet on horse racing at all? No. Okay. So you won't watch the Travers or anything like that? No. Any of the big races? See, I love to watch it. I'm surprised, given that you – I don't like that it's like a one-minute thing.

34:47I like the three-hour marathon. I want to get my money's worth. And what about you? So you don't do like the micro-betting stuff? Like you're not betting on pitches or anything or innings and stuff like that for baseball? I try not to. I have a problem with baseball, so I try to stay away from it. Are you up or down like historically in your life? Oh, down. No one's up for their lifetime. Are you down, like, dramatically down or, like, a couple thousand or tens of thousands? Well, first of all, I mean, I've been betting for 30 years. So that's, like I said, thousands or tens of thousands? Thousands or tens of thousands.

35:21I mean, if it's tens of thousands, it's probably, like, ten. But I don't know if I would. I mean, I don't know. What's your biggest win? Can Ed Limbo do a positive? Oh, I want a$200 parlay on a$10 bet on Saturday. Well, that's not your biggest one of all time, though. I don't bet big amounts. I bet small amounts, but I bet a lot of games. I'm a quantity over quality guy. I like to have a lot of action. Okay. Like, I'll bet every NFL game on a Sunday, but I bet, like,$25. I'm not paying. I honestly, like, again, I really feel like in some ways I'm very happy that the explosion of this, in terms of being able to bet on your phone, happened after my 20s.

36:01because I feel like it would have been terrible for me. And now, like, I find gambling fascinating. Like, it's very interesting for me to read what the odds makers say on stuff like that, but I rarely bet. Like, if I'm in Las Vegas for whatever reason, I would certainly go to a sports book for a day to have fun. But I'm not – I have no DraftKings or FanDuel account or anything like that. What do you think of Bill Simmons? I mean, like, I saw that thing. Like, he asked his daughter's boyfriend to bet. Like, I don't find that to be any kind of crime or anything. I guess technically it is. But are you bothered by that?

36:34Not at all. Not at all. People are nuts. Yeah. Why are people upset about that? Because you broke the rules? Because we live in a time where social media is gotcha. So if they can do a gotcha, they're happy. You know, when I left Sports Illustrated, just to follow up on this, and announce I was going to underscore, I got so much response from people about the hot clicks days, the hot clicks days. And I couldn't believe people still remembered it and mentioned it. And I was thinking so hard about it. And I realized like those days when I was doing hot clicks, everyone came on the Internet to have fun.

37:09It was all about having fun and having a good time and being creative. The blogs were doing such creative work. And now everything is coming on to be to be outraged or do gotcha. So that's what this Bill Simmons thing is. It's a gotcha. Well, again, social media is essentially conflict monetization, right? You agree? That's sort of what it's become. It's horrific. Again, if I had to do it again and I can't do it again, I would have invested in a different platform than X slash Twitter. Unfortunately, like my biggest audience in social media is there, but I've had to do it like that. It's just become in many ways also sort of useless even for promotion compared to.

37:46But if you have a take, if you have a conflict, if you have a conflict take, though, you get a shitload of engagement. But you're saying this now when it's just a complete shithole cesspool. But you didn't feel that way when it was good. Like, no, I know. I love it. When you went viral for posting the baby pictures. Yeah. When it was I loved it. Yeah, I'm saying that now. You're 100 % right. Feuding with Piers Morgan, one of my favorite things ever in the history of Twitter. Yeah. Talk about conflict. People try to make money off conflict. I didn't make any. Maybe Piers did. I didn't make money off that.

38:16All right, last one. He said, he goes, you don't even have a Wikipedia page. Yeah, I know. Knock me for not having a Wikipedia page. That was great. That's a totally fun. I have one now. I've never written it. It's not self-written or anything like that. But yeah, this goes way back when, which is pretty funny. A very funny shot in hindsight. Richard Deutsch Wikipedia. All right. Yeah, by the way, not self-written. Someone wrote it. I know it exists, but – Sure. But I'm Jimmy. I'm swearing my kids' lives. I did not – I've never written anything on Wikipedia about myself. All right, last one. Boring.

38:55I may have to add to this. No, don't add to it. Then I'm going to find yours if you have one and add to it. I don't know Wikipedia. Last one. you were you really were talking about this article this i think was new york times duncan is no longer for people like me and ben affleck where this uh writer wrote about hold on this writer wrote about you're misrepresenting already i wasn't talking about it people sent it to me but people sent to you so this writer is basically saying they were not happy with all these new drinks that duncan donuts has like you know whatever like all purple and blueberry or whatever right as someone who has been in duncan donuts a million times a lot of family in massachusetts and obviously if you're in massachusetts anywhere around there you can't escape duncan like so what like all right so they have all these other like like uh new items you still can get your coffee there your munchkins or donuts there so what is the big deal the coffee has not changed and by the way not that i think duncan knows is the greatest coffee of all time but it is better than starbucks and in my opinion also better than tim hortons now where i live here in Toronto.

39:57No, you know, listen, it's like Ontario forever. But I just got to be honest, Duncan is a better has better coffee than Tim Hortons. So this is a terrible, terrible job by you. You did no research on this and you're coming at me at the wrong angle. I did very little research. I agree. Terrible job. I'll explain it. I had put out a tweet on June 23rd. that said and just for some background i'm just looking the tweet has 6.6 million views don't ask me right i don't understand it 5 000 likes and 500 500 comments and the tweet was this hi dunkin donuts love you to death just a suggestion you should consider having a separate line for normal people who just want normal coffee so we don't have to wait while these ridiculous concoctions ordered by dopey kids are being made.

40:51Okay. And I, now I see the picture when I was in Dunkin Donuts of a pink drink, a yellow drink and an orange drink. And my point was that if you are someone who wants to go into Duncan and just like, when I walk into Duncan, I go, can I please get a medium hot coffee with cream period? End of sentence. That's it. Or if you're someone, can I get a medium iced coffee cream and sugar pit? Those people shouldn't have to wait for 10. That's what had happened. I walked into a Duncan. There was no line. I was the only one there. No line. And I had to wait five to 10 minutes before someone took my order of a medium hot coffee with cream because they were making these concoctions with foam and colors and syrups and pumps and all this shit.

41:31So I think there should be a separate line just for the coffee. Then. So for some reason, that tweet got six point six million views. Crazy. Yeah. And then on August 28th, people started sending me this article from The Times about Dunkin' is no longer for people. like me and it sort of was about my point that they have all these other ridiculous drinks that take time to make and some people just still are old like me and want coffee all right i mean that's how that all came about okay you explained it a little better so now at least i sort of understand it a little bit more um yeah have you by the way i i don't know you probably haven't spent much time in canada have you ever had tim hortons oh they have tim hortons i have yeah what's your thought on that don't love it yeah i agree and starbucks okay so i have i this is me this is a very weird deranged abnormal thing here's my thing hot coffee i like duncan yep iced coffee i like starbucks that's not that's not so odd i don't like a lot of people like that i don't like duncan iced interesting okay yeah um and i just get regular coffee i don't really do you know the other stuff and because i haven't been in new york in like a little bit of time what is if you're uh what what is like a starbucks uh you know what's the price of a starbucks like iced coffee these days iced coffee i think is like foreign change probably no that's not terrible but that's just the right you know i will say this i was actually going to talk about this with sal when we taped this week i was in this city one day last week and i did a ton of walking I haven't been walking around the city lately because I've had massive back problems, but I felt good last week.

43:11So I walked a ton in the city. I cannot believe you can't go three feet without some fancy coffee shop. The whole city is just nothing but coffee shops. Fantastic. That's awesome. I'm not talking Dunkin Starbucks. No, I get it. I love it. I'm a big coffee person, so that's good. Everyone just walking around holding their iced coffees, their lattes, their frappuccino. Like it's just it's an insane business, seven, eight, nine dollars. And everyone's walking around with them. It's yeah. Now, both of us love New York City. I lived there for 20 years. Basically, the New York Post told me that it's basically it's red New York City.

43:48Like, are there communist signs all over the place? And it's like, are people still like, is there commerce still there? Or has it all been taken over by the by the by the swarm of communists? Well, the board is closed now. So, I mean, I don't know. So like, I know that there are, well, I don't know. Greatest city in the world. All I know is this. Today, forever, and tomorrow. I go into the city. I meet my friends for dinner. We have a great time. I come home. I don't see people shooting up heroin. I don't see people stabbing. I know there was a stabbing two days ago, but what I'm saying is, it is not a war zone by any stretch of the imagination.

44:28It's the greatest city that there ever was. Well, there are flaws. Of course. 10 million people. It's almost impossible to govern, but they do it. I'll tell you what I hate about this city. I say that regardless. Look, I voted for Republicans and Democrats when it comes to mayor. What I hate is since covid, they have the restaurants out in the streets and I hate it because you don't like that. The traffic is they're in the streets. Stop being an old man. It's good to have alfresco dining. Not in the street. That's not alfresco. That's, you know, putting tables in a parking lot is not alfresco.

45:06Jimmy Trina is a podcast host slash writer for underscore media. You can sign up for Trina Thoughts wherever you get your podcasts, as he says in the bio, even though he claims he didn't write it. Trina Thoughts is your front row seat to conversations with the biggest names in sports media. Jimmy, congratulations on getting Alex Rodriguez. We look forward to that conversation. You have a big NFL guest coming up in September and, you know, continue to sign up for Jimmy's podcast. Both of us are very curious if anybody at SI is going to take over that feed. My former feed, your former feed. I guess we'll see.

45:43I'm not going to comment on that. Okay. First time you haven't. I mean, I assume they're going to use the feed since they didn't give it to me. Well, they're definitely going to use the feed. the question is who will run it and who will host it and what will it be I don't know how you use a feed see when I took over from you we still did the same thing it was a sports media podcast so if it's not going to be a sports media podcast you're going to have people who are not going to be happy who are going to just unsubscribe quickly Exactly It's a sports media podcast We'll have to tell everyone not to listen to it No, I support everybody Shout out to Jimmy Trena on Reddit's community My guy Cam Occasionally text or email with him on LinkedIn And always appreciate him LinkedIn Yeah, LinkedIn is like one social media site Where it's not that toxic Jimmy, thank you and best of luck Richard, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you helping me out here And you've been very generous.

46:52So I thank you for that. Jimmy Traynor, everybody. All right. As I said at the top, I bring in my second guest on this podcast. First time, though, that she has been on. Liz Robbins is a longtime journalist, including a very, very prominent sports writer for the New York Times, as well as the Cleveland Plain Dealer. She's a tremendous basketball and tennis writer. If you Google her stuff, you'll see an inordinate amount of pieces on the Knicks and on some of the great tennis matches that exist, particularly at the U.S. Open, where I used to see her grind all the time. She is the co-author of a new book with Billie Jean King titled See It to Be It.

47:37By the way, Liz, is there like it's a colon and then some other stuff? Is it just see it to be it or is it more than see it to be it? It is more, Richard. Thank you for having me on. It is 11 Champions Leading Women's Sports Today. Okay. And that was a very deliberate subtitle. Okay. I know I never, sometimes the authors do not want, they just want the short thing, but not the subtitle. So that is Liz and Billie Jean King's book. Profiles include Caitlin Clark, Kevin O 'Coin Schofield, Naomi Osaka, Midge Purse. um the book is written for young adults but having um gone through it a little bit it is honestly for both adults it's really sort of for all ages and um the publicity so far has been really really good i've seen billy jean king out there i know you were on uh what was the cbs show that you did list we need to talk yeah that was good that was a good spot um all right and with that, I formally welcome you to the podcast.

48:38Hello, Liz. Hello, Richard. Very happy to be here. Yeah, yeah. I know Liz for a long time, so that's why this is a little bit familiar. Okay. So first off, how does one link up with Billie Jean King to do a book? Great question. So obviously, I have covered Billie Jean King and quoted her numerous times in covering the US Open, which I covered for 14 straight years. And when I took a buyout from the New York Times, I was then doing freelance pieces and still am right now. I'm doing the freelance pieces for the International New York Times. And every summer, they have a women in sports section.

49:16Well, in the summer of 2023, that was the 50th anniversary of equal pay at the US Open, which, of course, Billie Jean King helped make possible. And she did that actually the year before because she's the one who got the sponsor. She gets things done, right? So he had$55 ,000 from Bristol Myers Squibb, and I think it was at that point they were doing banned deodorant. And she did not earn the same as Elie Nastassi. She earned$15 ,000 less for winning in 1972. So it stinks, she said. So I thought, all right, this is the story, right? 2023 and what's been happening since. And Billie Jean has been involved in not just tennis equity, but in pretty much every area of women's sports, from helping out the women's soccer team to just really supporting people, including the birth of the Women's Hockey League, the PWHL.

50:18And when I wrote about her for the International New York Times, basically highlighting what we see is that she's not done. Like she's still going 100 miles an hour and she loves it. She's passionate about it. So I wrote the story and not only did it run internationally, it also ran as a preview for the U.S. Open. And I had been in touch with Alana Kloss, Billy's wife, and also chief executive of the Billy Jane King Enterprises. Billy says, I dream it. Alana builds it. And I went to shoot my shot. And I said, Alana, you know, I'd love to do something writing-wise or helping out in any of your enterprises.

51:05And she said, well, Billy wants to write a young adult book. And do you have any ideas? I said, as a matter of fact, I do. And here we are. Awesome. When having talked to authors a lot on this podcast who have done like these with books, you know, like, you know, Mary Lemieux with Author X. Sometimes the with part, the author, really does everything. It's like tape long interviews with the subject, author writes the book, and then the subject never even reads it or edits it or anything else. Billie Jean King strikes me as someone who's far more hands-on than a sports figure who may just want a memoir book out there.

51:51What was the process like, like sort of the real editing and writing process involved with her? Well, first we had to decide who was going to be in the book. That actually was one of the hardest things that we did. And we had to pitch it, of course, and sell it. And so the first person that we talked about was Deanna Flores, the flag football player, because Billy had just done a commercial with Deanna at the Super Bowl. And it was great. Yeah. And so they had met. And to me, this was what the book was about. It was a Latina woman in a very patriarchal society in Mexico who is five foot two, overcoming all these odds and is really passionate about making change.

52:37And so that's what Billy wanted. We wanted to get athletes who were representative of the sport and very diverse and all matters. And so then we reached out to all the athletes and Billy and Alana kind of helped secure some of them. And it was really important that we had people who were household names like Caitlin Clark, but also people like Chelsea Gray, who have four championships in the WNBA. And Chelsea, Duke graduate, Team USA is black and gay. And that is very representative of the WNBA. Yep. We also have a Paralympian who's just incredible. What she's gone through, Mackenzie Cohn. So that was the first step.

53:27We sell the book. And then, yes, setting up all these interviews. And as you know, as a feature writer, you don't just interview the athlete. You interview the whole support network. And the parents are great. And I have to say, the one, I mean, there were so many parents who gave me hours, which was amazing. Jermaine O 'Neal, who I had covered when he was with Pacers as an NBA writer for the New York Times, we had an hour and a half conversation. He was crying on the phone. He was so passionate about Asia and, you know, his daughter, following the trend of many NBA players whose daughters are volleyball professionals or volleyball players.

54:07is Asia O 'Neill had gone through two open heart surgeries before she was 20. And, you know, Jermaine just talked about how that was his championship was getting her to the right doctors. So it was really moving. And to the process with Billie Jean, I would be sending chapters as I finished them. She would print them out and she would go through them with a pencil. and we would gather when we had critical mass and we would talk about them. And she said, you know, she had just amazing insight on what would be a great ending or why this worked, why this didn't, or, of course, correcting some of the facts that she knows so well.

54:51And she was overseeing it. She was making sure the cover was right. I think at 82, almost 83, she is incredibly busy and knows more people and knows more history than anyone. So she's really the perfect collaborator for this book. It's very clear if you read some of the chapters just how much reporting you put into it. This is not just a rip from the articles that have already been written and then sort of a rewrite. Like there's, you know, original, a lot of original reporting here from Liz. The one person I do want to ask you about those Caitlin Clark, who just, I know from my world, um, is not the easiest person to get just because of all the requests that, um, have gone to her.

55:37A lot of times when you're writing about Caitlin Clark, you know, you try to get to the Iowa people, let's say Lisa Bluter or Jan Jensen. You try to get to the high school coaches. Um, I haven't ever tried to get her parents, so I don't know if they're accessible or not. What was your experience with that particular chapter, given how famous she has become in a very short amount of time? Right. And when I got her, it was like peak celebrity. I think it was the day after or that day that she had talked to David Letterman. So, yeah, she was really into it. But at the end of the day, Billie Jean King.

56:17That's how we got her. And I had a 45 minute interview with her. And of course, you're like, oh, I should have asked this. I should have asked that. And I had a whole plan and it went pretty well. I had a 45 minute interview with Caitlin and she was tremendous. One of the stories that she gave me that hasn't been out there. It's just a small little piece of news. She actually could have been a tennis player, which bothered Billy very, very much. Because so we know and I discuss how she was really a big soccer player. She loved me a ham. But when she went to take tennis lessons, it was at a local clinic.

56:56And the coach was just not giving them balls to hit. They were doing all kinds of small little drills that did not interest Caitlin. And so she huffed off and was very upset with the coach and left and said, I'm not doing this. and she was telling me this and kind of laughing and she said her mom made her go back to apologize she's like i never went back to tennis she had been hitting against the garage a lot yeah boy was billy mad at that she's like that coach should have realized that she needed more and you got to make it interesting so i have no doubt that caitlin would have been an incredible tennis player but her heart was in basketball i think she i mean it's a good choice regardless i think it's worked out pretty well for everybody in women's sports and for her.

57:45For sure. All right. So the book is see it to be it. 11 champions leading women's sports today. You can get that pretty much anywhere, I imagine, where books are sold online. And if you roll into a bookstore, are you doing any kind of book tour or is Billie Jean doing any kind of book tour? Billie Jean is not doing a formal book tour, but I'm pretty excited that on September 3rd, which is tomorrow I'll be doing a wonderful panel event at rough and tumble a pub in Seattle. And one of the foremost women's sports bars in the country. And they do a lot of programs. And I know there's going to be a lot of soccer teams there.

58:30And we're going to have a couple of players, one from the rain and one from salmon Bay and Kate Starbird, a name that both you and I remember. I know. I mean, we covered her at Stanford. Kate Starbird then went on to become a PhD and is one of the United States' foremost experts on disinformation. She's really a genius in addition to being a great basketball player. She is. She is. And she's trying to preserve democracy by exposing how the internet ruins it. yeah yes i got a lot of time for that's awesome please send my best to her i'm a big fan of her i know i am too i'm trying not to fangirl i only did that once in my career with dr j and uh that was a little embarrassing as a philadelphian but i saw him at the nba all-star game and and uh when it was the 50th anniversary and i basically told him if you ever run for mayor of philadelphia you got my vote nice which can you vote in philly that really no not at all I haven't lived there since I was 18.

59:34I know. That's the thing. Well, it's okay to fangirl with Kate Starber. I think that's legit. All right. A couple things here before I let you go. Obviously, you're really an OG when it comes to writing about women's sports. You were writing stuff, certainly when it comes to basketball, let's say, before the real explosion. And Caitlin Clark, obviously, is a massive, massive part of that. You see, obviously, the media rights deals and the viewership numbers and all that stuff, Liz. In your – one thing – so here's – like this is a little bit of a sort of a twofold kind of thought here. On the one hand, from when me and you were covering women's basketball, and I covered more college, I think, than you.

1:00:18You covered more pros than me. The amount of media coverage is incredible now versus what it was if you were covering this in like 2005 or 2007. No one would argue otherwise. That said, compared to men's sports, it still is significantly lacking. And if you turn on just to use ESPN as an example, one of their morning shows or something like that, usually the only talk is when there's something controversial. It's not like, hey, let's dissect how good Kelsey Mitchell has been in the mid-range. It's like, here's the latest WNBA controversy. So as someone who really – you're not at the beginning with the Melissa Luckies of the world, but you're like that second generation or third generation.

1:01:03Where do you see stuff? Is it great that there's more coverage or do you look at it like, man, it's 2026 and there really should be more coverage than it is now? I think it's complicated to break that down because what do we mean by coverage? So in the late 90s, there was a lot of coverage, but most of these newspapers don't exist anymore. And a lot of it was smaller papers, medium-sized papers. I covered the Women's World Cup, and that was an overflowing, in 1999, it was an overflowing press box. I remember Robin Roberts was, you know, heading all of the NCAA tournament coverage. So it was big.

1:01:49But what we're seeing now is completely different. Obviously, there's influencers, there's all kinds of online stuff that's happening. And proliferate in a way that was years ago. So it is little apples and oranges. However, I will agree with you that the discourse has become quite political and doesn't always focus on the basketball or stuff. But I think that's OK. I mean, I do think that that's one of the prices that has to be paid when you have these deals that are happening. So you get coverage on six different networks now. And you'll have some that are breaking it down better and, you know, goats on Amazon talk, Cynthia Cooper's about her time and Cheryl Swoops.

1:02:53So I think that discourse is expanding, and I'm not going to say there are women's sports writers who have been doing this forever and you guys don't get it. I just think that the discourse has become a little less civil, but that's across the board. It's not just women's sports. Yeah, well said. Um, you, um, you told me that you recently just did a piece on the new women's pro baseball league. Um, what did you find in your reporting? Well, it's not out yet, but it will be by the time we discuss this. So the piece, actually, I pitched it to the international and sports section about the 10 new leagues, the 10 new women's sports leagues that have started up.

1:03:49I mean, it's really incredible if you think about Unrivaled and you think AU Softball League, the Upshot League, Donna Orenders Basketball League, lacrosse, can't forget the sport I played in college, lacrosse league, and we've got rugby. I mean, I could go on. But to me, I was like, I wanted to see what was going on with the baseball league. and the women for baseball league i mean we haven't had one in 72 years since the league of their own uh league and so i went to springfield illinois i saw two things i saw amazing fans and community and girls and mothers and brothers and i saw a lot of people i also didn't see enough people in the stands.

1:04:35It was a little disappointing on a couple of weekends. The big thing, and this is what you do, the big thing is television exposure. I don't think they're getting it. They opted, unlike the Hockey League, they opted to not be on YouTube, at least in the United States, and go with ESPN Select. And I think that's hurting them. Also, Springfield is not the easiest place to get to. You fly to St. Louis and then drive an hour and a half through cornfields. It's great that it's the birthplace of Lincoln and also Andre Iguodala. Fun fact. Did not know that. But, you know, they played at a neutral site to keep costs down.

1:05:16And I think the other big thing is that there's some internal strife and you can't have that in a league. You have to be really, really directed. And some of the internal strife is, you know, about personnel, but also about finances. And so there's a lawsuit going on about the non-disclosure or not enough disclosure of where the money is going. And that does worry me, but I know that there are good people behind it. The players are incredible and they didn't even practice together until this began. Most of them have other jobs or going to college and every single one of them, they have great stories.

1:05:58So I think it's definitely possible. But and it's also an offensive bonanza. It's so fun to see this. They're playing with metal alloy bats, aluminum bats, crushing home runs. And as one fan said to me, you're not going to see this at a men's baseball game. This is fun. And it is. It really is. Look, it's a startup league and startups have to start somewhere. And I think they're going to get things together for the second year. It should not be a referendum on women's sports. Not all startups are going to last. And there's a whole other issue, which is who's funding women's sports and who's funding men's sports as we see, you know, billion dollar price tags and private equity going into the Yankees as if they need more.

1:06:50Right. And you're not seeing those numbers on the women's side. And so this is all very complicated and also is very systemic about women in sports. you know, the system was never really designed for women's pro sports. And so a lot of the models have been following the men like the WNBA. But I think if they go away from that and it's very clear from basketball and soccer and with the NWSL's valuations and also their TV, their TV rights deal, it's there. It's there. And if it can just trickle down to the others and with softball coming in with Major League Baseball funding, I do think there is something to be said.

1:07:38And then the last thing I will leave you with on this is you have to look at the youth participation. And that's what a lot of funds right now are looking at and including aerial investments, which is terrific. And they basically said, look, we're looking where young girls are playing volleyball, flag football. Those two are the sports that are going to be growing. And so there's a lot of money coming in. Of course, volleyball has two pro leagues. You can't have that. As we know, the NBA showed us that. The WNBA showed us that. Hockey showed us that. So it's growing. There will be growing pains.

1:08:23But I'm so excited to see that this is finally happening. I appreciate your insight, Liz. The book is See It to Be It, 11 Champions Leading Women's Sports Today by Billie Jean King with Liz Robbins. Your age range for this book is 12 and up. It is everywhere where you shop for books online, from Amazon to Barnes & Noble to Bookshop.org to Walmart, et cetera. uh, Liz, I'm rooting for the book to do well, but, um, from what I read between like publishers weekly and some of this other stuff, the reviews have been good. So congratulations. It's very, very exciting. And, uh, and thank you so much for joining me today on the sports media podcast.

1:09:07Thanks for having me. Great to talk. All right, back in the studio, my thanks to Jimmy Trena and Liz Robbins for their time and, uh, their insight to very different interviews, two very different people, but appreciate them both all the same. Head to the archives if you like these kind of conversations. Previously, we had – we'd done some stuff on college football in terms of the beginning of that season. Chad Finn, Austin Karp, and John Lewis were on, and we talked about a number of different things, including also who is the face of ESPN. In terms of guests lately, Jason Hare, director of The Last Dance, on his newest film Novak Djokovic the Wolfen winner Maxwell Jacob Friedman on the art of doing media as a pro wrestler uh and then obviously we've done a ton of stuff on Tony Romo and what's going on with him and we will continue that want to thank uh James Jackson for all his hard work on this podcast thanks to everybody at Odyssey for their support and most of all thank you for listening we'll see you soon on the sports media podcast

1:10:19Thank you.