The ESPN layoffs — and the media impact of LeBron to the Sixers

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2:45Welcome to the Sports Media Podcast. I'm your host Richard Deitch. My producer is James James Jackson celebrating LeBron James heading to the Philadelphia 76ers. James is a big Sixer fan, big Philly guy. We will eventually get to LeBron on this podcast, but the ESPN layoffs will be the major discussion on this podcast, and I have two excellent guests for that. Austin Karp, of course, is a regular on this podcast. He is a media writer, or the media writer, or a media writer, for Sports Business Journal. Jane McManus, longtime sports journalist, including a long run at ESPN, which is why she's a great guest here.

3:21You can read all of Jane's work on her various social media platforms, professor as well, working as an editor for storied sports. And she's been teaching a lot lately. She's welcome to give us a plug on any, apparently teaching to the point where I think she got some boondoggle, where she's in Europe, someone else paying for her. Kind of incredible. Anyway, welcome, Austin. Welcome, Jane. Glad to be here. Thank you for that intro, Richard. It was almost like I'm Ron Burgundy, A writer, D writer. Exactly, yeah. No, I've had more elegant intros. All right. You know, there's not a great, easy sort of way to segue this, but the reason for this discussion is, you know, once again, ESPN has had layoffs.

4:05Jane, I know you're certainly familiar with that, having worked there, having gone through it at ESPN. This one, you know, one of the things I was sort of thinking about, I don't have the exact, I don't have the exact sort of column in front of me, but I remember writing in 2015, which was a really, really bad layoff. And a lot of well-known people, as well as a lot of behind the scenes people were laid off. And I talked to a longtime ESPNer who gave me a quote that I will always remember. And paraphrasing, it was something, the fact of like, this was a company that was unique and special. And one of the reasons like being here was you really felt unique and special.

4:43We're just another company now. Like I remember this person said this in 2015. And every time ESPN has had a layoff since, I always think of that line because more and more, it's become more apparent that they are just another company now. There's a lot of reasons, obviously, for these layoffs from the larger macro, which is ESPN once upon a time being more than 100 million homes. Today, according to Nielsen, that's a shade of below 55 million. The NFL Network, of course, they purchased that. And whenever there's sort of a purchase or some kind of merger, you're always going to see people lose their jobs.

5:23And then, you know, there's a larger thing about they've made bets on big stars. And that means sort of the middle class, even though in the real world, their upper class has been cut. We'll get into all three of those kind of facets of this. But let me start with you, Jane, because you work there. And this I always imagine like a layoff is personal to you when you see this, even though you've been gone for a while. What were your initial reactions when when you saw this one? Yeah, just, you know, feeling for all of the colleagues that I worked with who were part of it. You know, people I respect, people that I trust as journalists and as commentators.

6:02I mean, Ryan Clark, you know, to me personally, just having worked with him and having so much respect for the thought that he brought, the thoughtfulness that he brought to everything that he said. You know, he was never about like the big audacious statements. You know, he was about who are the people, you know, that I'm covering? What's the accountability for the league? you know things that I think are important I think it's important to have those voices and so you know what I was kind of thinking is that boy the there are fewer and fewer voices like that measured voices responsible voices you know voices when somebody like Damar Hamlin has a life-threatening moment in an NFL game somebody that I would really you know feel comfortable you know having in that analyst chair to be able to deliver the appropriate gravitas the facts, and to be able to be a bit of a moral center, which I think you need in those moments.

6:59So, Trey, I'm not, you know, Ryan Clark's best moment on ESPN was absolutely DeMar Hamlin. I'm not always sure I would say that he wasn't someone who couldn't, I don't know if I would say he's always measured, you know, would take that for what it's worth. I think like a lot of other people at that network, he sort of got into a little bit of the hot take-ization of stuff. Now, if that said, I understand your point, Jane, you stated it well. Austin, broadly, you know, Jane, again, it's sort of personal. She worked with people like Ryan Clark. For you, you know, we all obviously feel for the people who have lost their jobs.

7:31But also me and you have covered this a long time. And I think we sort of know there's like larger macro forces at play. And I'm sure, you know, when you saw this, it's one of the things you probably thought about at least. First off, yeah, I think this was coming. As soon as they purchased NFL Network, you knew there were going to be some redundancies. It doesn't make it any easier. These are jobs. These are real human beings. But you knew this sort of thing was going to be coming. But some of the names that you see, like Carl Ravitch, it stunned me. That has been one of the ESPN stalwarts for, I feel like, most of the time that I've even known about sports.

8:07He has just been the centerpiece. Obviously, it was baseball, and they've dialed back some of their baseball. There's not Sunday Night Baseball. You know, baseball tonight is just not a thing anymore. So it wasn't shocking, but it still was surprising to see somebody like Carl Ravitch get let go. And folks like Stefania Bell, too, that made something out of nothing, like just created a whole genre through hard work. And, you know, she was somebody before Twitter that I would tune in to see because I wanted to know about injury reports and fantasy football. And, like, she created that whole segment, that whole sector, I feel like, on her own.

8:44So that one also cut a little deep, seeing somebody that had been there for 20 years and do that and develop that, get cut like that. But, yeah, these are macro level issues. And, again, not isolated to ESPN. This is a broader Disney thing. People were let go at ABC and Nat Geo and a lot of the networks across the portfolio within Disney. But, again, it doesn't make it any easier. It doesn't make it any easier to see as a fan of a lot of these people. Yeah, you know, it's interesting you say that. David Lloyd, for me, was one who, like, did you work with him, Jane? Yeah, I sure did. Yeah, and my thought there is that's a guy who just had an amazing reputation.

9:21Everybody seemed to like him. It was just like Charles Davis as well. Did good work, right? Didn't complain. Wasn't somebody who you read about fighting with somebody on Twitter or something like that. And, you know, it just – that place used to feel like it is the destination and a safe harbor. and you see guys like Dave Lloyd go and there's no safe harbor anymore. There also used to be this idea that when you're covering sports, you want that institutional knowledge. So you want somebody who's been there for 40 years and can look and say, yeah, that's the way it was done. This is different. This is something, this is a new kind of talent that we're seeing.

9:58This is somebody who can really break things apart from a longitudinal standpoint. And what they're doing now, and it's not just ESPN, but it's certainly at ESPN as well, is just the decimation of that type of reporter, the one that can really tell you what things were like, stuff that you can't find when you're just watching the highlights that don't necessarily come out of the box scores, but things that people know, that people who've covered the leagues for a long time know. And that institutional knowledge is just, it's disappearing and what's being replaced is somebody who can put together a TikTok.

10:29And there's absolutely a place for social media, but it is balanced with all of these different things. And, you know, if you try to put together 15 TikToks to tell you the story of, you know, what happened with the New York Knicks this year as they made the push of the playoffs and ultimately win the championships, you're not going to get the same level of analysis, of coverage, of understanding. And so I think there's a real, the history that goes into the history of the sports and the stories that we're telling, it's just not going to be there in the same way when today's young sports fan is older.

11:05Jane, one other thing, you know, this is I saw Linda Cohen, who's got a new YouTube channel. She had a pretty good take on because it was a personal take. She obviously, you know, as speaking of institutional knowledge, perfect example. And she was mentioning like the how I don't know the exact number, but whatever the number is of people who are behind the scenes, who are laid off in this, you know, people whose names we don't know. And, you know, I imagine it's I think she might have mentioned 150. I don't know what the number is, but obviously it's significant. it. So, Jane, I wanted to ask you this and Austin, you certainly can weigh in as well.

11:36One of the things that I've seen over the course of my time writing and covering this, and I'm not in the transactions game the way I once upon a time was, but I was blown away by how many people were just interested in who, like, we got to get the names of the people who are laid off. And it doesn't feel like there's any other sports entity where people feel that way about ESP, other than ESPN. And it's interesting in the sense that like on the one hand, yeah, they're not the 110 million Nielsen household powerhouse they used to be, yet they still play this role in American sports culture where they really are bigger and more dominant than anyone else.

12:18And I know it's like a very inside baseball-y kind of thing, but that was one of the things I noticed when I was paying attention to Twitter that day was how many people, like the second you saw another name like be mentioned, a well-known name, a million comments came in. And it's sort of reconstituted, if nothing else, like people are people do care about this place. They don't always love it, but they do care. And I want to get your take on that. Yeah. I mean, ESPN is America's sports section. I mean, that's really what it boils down to. And I think that, you know, it's harder to crack the starting lineup at ESPN than it is to crack, you know, the starting roster of a baseball team, you know, an MLB team.

12:57And I just think, so there's this familiarity, there's a, there's an intimacy there when it comes to like radio and podcasts and all of the different ways that you're encountering the people who cover sports at ESPN. And even, you know, when you're talking about editors and, you know, VPs, you know, they are the best of the best. And so it is this, it's a bit of a, I think there's also this kind of like, you know, Schoenfreude that goes through people's minds when they, when they see it. And so there's that fascination with it. But I also think it's like, well, you know, which of the people that I trust and respect am I not going to hear from in the same way anymore?

13:31And, you know, it's just a shame because I think, you know, it really was a murderer's row and it has been a murderer's row at different times. And young and talented writers and producers are and analysts are coming through all the time. So it's not like they're completely losing that ability to own the stories and the narratives and, you know, really be able to cover sports in a full-throated way. But, again, it is that kind of like the household names of people that you trust, like, you know, Mel Kiper or somebody like that when they get laid off. And it's just like somebody that you've known for so long.

14:00I do think it's, you know, it's kind of like, oh, there's somebody I'm not going to hear from. There's somebody that I trust and I'm not going to hear from. And it's, you know, it's kind of, you know, you pour out a little bit, I think, for that. Because as a viewer, you know, you feel like you know them. Awesome. I want to ask you about this facet. I heard from a number of agents, talent agents, even though I wasn't writing anything on this, who basically like in short, you know, well, I guess we could always get the explicit title on this podcast. They were like, how the fuck could like people find out from reporters and not from human resources or not from management?

14:36And that was one of the things that like I got to be honest, because both of both of us have been like this is not the first time this has happened. like I'm I know that there have been wait times obviously I'm sort of dating myself here 10 years ago whenever I was writing about this that people found out that they might have been on a list for my reporting so like the rabbit one is unbelievable to me because if you believe that I believe he found out from Marshan like that you know in terms of Marshan's reporting on this I don't even know where to start on that a guy who's worked for your place for 30 something years like how on earth can you not inform that person prior.

15:13And then the Ryan Clark one, the one thing that was head spinning to me, you know, let's say, so you believe ESPN said, Hey, we wanted to let our guy know that there were going to be stories written about this before he, he, he read about this. Why would Ryan Clark be then on the air on Monday or Tuesday? Like that makes no sense. Like why, what, like that's, if you're laying the guy off, like call him on the weekend, like that's it. Like, you know, Thank you, and it's a hard time for us, but you're not going to be on the air when this happens. So I don't know. This seems to happen to them and not other networks, and it's not the first time.

15:49So I got to be honest with you, especially the Ravitch one. I was like, holy shit, you got to be kidding. Three-decade employee, and he's got to learn about it from a reporter writing this stuff? ESPN does a lot right. This is not something that they have traditionally done the right way. whatever you think about Ryan Clark's opinions, like what the hell? Like, how did that go down like that? It is just, it is baffling to think that that is how that finally went down in the Carl thing. Just to hear about one after the other about these people. Wait, they found out on Twitter. They found out from a reporter.

16:22They got pulled mid-show. Like, it just feels like that part of all of this absolutely could have been handled better. like every facet of this it just feels like espn just didn't do a good job on the hr side here you gotta hope that they can learn from this but like you said things like this have happened in the past yeah so what is it that you know that they can do better next time so there are going to be cuts in the future we know that that's coming i'm not a media future nothing we're reporting on here but like we know that it's going to happen in the future at other companies i just hope finally like they can you know sit down and be like all right like how do we do this better next time.

17:01Sloppy and shitty as hell. Jane, can I ask you if you're willing to share how you found out when you were laid off by them? Yeah, I got a call. I got a call early in the morning and they told me personally before I found out even that there was a layoff. And that's the way it should be done, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, the way that this is being done is unprofessional, honestly. It's unprofessional because if the names are leaking, than somebody's talking. So somebody's talking to somebody and giving out a list of names before they go out. And it's just, it's completely, it's not classy. It's unprofessional.

17:34It treats people like they're, you know, names on a fantasy team. And it, that to me is, you know, beyond the pale. It just, you know, it kind of undermines your authority in the space as a company. It is like other companies do. And there's this, I mean, I understand, you know, when you, when you are purchasing another network and you're consolidating talent, you're consolidating producers, you're doing a lot of the same things, you're eliminating redundancies. I get it. I get it. They're going to be layoffs. But at the same time, there is this kind of corporate idea that you're just going to kill 10 % of your employee, of your labor force at any given time just to keep things interesting.

18:15And I feel like that's pretty pernicious. There are better ways to treat people. We've gotten so used to people just being discardable next man up, et cetera. And, you know, and I, and it is tough. It's tough when you're dealing with human beings and to see that happen again. Yeah. I want to, I'm going to read something Mike Hill said to you guys in a second, but I will say this and I sent this out on social media. I will never forget a very high profile, high powered agent told me a long, long time ago about ESPN said, the reason why I negotiate really hard with them. And, and why I go for the kill shot is because you have to fuck them before they fuck you because they will fuck you one day.

18:53And so I always think like anybody who has leverage, like with that company in particular, you have to take it when you can, because there's, you know, there's going to be a day where Carl Ravitch, for example, somebody who built the baseball brand, right. There's going to be the, and again, like, I get it. Like we're talking about the 1 % of 1 % in the United States of America in terms of salary. No one is talking about somebody who's, you know, working retail, working on a farm. Like these are all first world problems. But even within that, there still should be a right way to do things. Jane, let me read you something like, you know, Mike Hill, who I'm a huge fan of.

19:27He's at Fox. He used to be at ESPN. He's a great dude. You know, like he was he was responding to people who are sort of like talking. And this always sort of happens, especially on X, like about the glory days of ESPN. Like, why can't we go back to the, you know, where ESPN was? And he said, I see a lot of people long for the glory days of ESPN. I agree, but stop blaming the network. Many of you bought into exactly what it is today. In fact, what sports overall has become a bunch of arguing, hot takes and debate. These networks look at ratings. I might have missed something. Basically, however, this is across the board in the landscape of all television.

20:01Cable news is like this now. Even the primetime shows are saturated with toxic reality shit. You want to know why? Because that's what most folks are watching. So maybe if you want to change things, change your habits, and the networks and streamers will buy into what you're actually buying. He's correct. He's dead on. I don't expect consumers to change. But there's a reason why Burke Magnus and Jimmy Pataro have made decisions to center around very much big personality players. Stephen A. Smith, Pat McAfee, you know, they're bringing in the Bustin' with the Boys guys on ESPN. And personality now sells at ESPN and certainly more than journalism, Jan.

20:42We, me and you may not like that as dinosaurs, but, but that's what sells the outside the lines world is dead in terms of like making money for them. And so I think Mike Hill's right. And I think that's part of all this equation to bet on a couple of big stars, big personalities who say a lot of shit and then try to survive. If you're part of the rest of the group. Thanks for becoming so cynical, Richard, You are now what you used to hate. I hope you feel good about that. I don't feel good about it, but I'm a realist. No, you're wrong, is what you are, is you're wrong. Entertainment still sells, absolutely, and there's a place for that.

21:20But the bedrock of what ESPN is is built on the facts. It's built on the reporting. And the only reason you can have those bloviators out front, you know, doing whatever they do shirtless, is because you've also taken the time to actually report what's going on. What scares me about this layoff is that it is messaging every single employee who's left inside that building and wants to pitch a story that should they go into territory that is no longer convenient for ESPN, they will be on the next list of layoffs. And so I think it is going to introduce, if it's not already there, a timidity into the reporting, et cetera, for the journalists who remain there and that all they'll be doing is puff pieces on how great the NFL is.

22:06All right. Let me just counter this. Okay. That was a great speech. I now want to go to journalism school again. Excellent. There's a place for you in my class, Richard. I appreciate that. Thank you. But can I not argue that ESPN ultimately is about live sports rights and everything else around it is just dressing for the live sports rights, which is the meat on the grill, including journalism and including even these hot take debate shows. OK, so then what makes ESPN different from Fox? Why do people go to Fox, not go to Fox to read about what happened? Why does ESPN have the digital platform that everybody wants to go to to find out about what happened?

22:43Because they are in all, and Austin, you can jump into this anytime you want, because they are like the New York Times. They are trying to provide a larger lifestyle brand for sports. They're trying to give you everything. And in their thesis, part of giving you everything is giving you a little bit of journalism and giving you a little bit of your vegetables in addition to like giving you Stephen A, giving you like the, you know, the corn dog at the carnival. So that's why I think they're different. Like I'm happy they exist. If they didn't exist, you know, in terms of like a television, like kind of property, no one would be doing this stuff.

23:17But yeah, I have become a little bit cynical. I just think their business, I think their business proposition at this point is about live games and then everything around it they they like they they kind of support but if push came to shove i think the journalism would be gone in a second if it was a question of like the economics uh model if they had to but then it would be like every other site i don't think it wouldn't it wouldn't have the competitive advantage over over all of the you know over fox and all these other places i feel like what makes espn has a fundamentally different brand Its brand is different.

23:54And if I'm sitting there and I'm trying to sell on advertisers to come and advertise on ESPN as opposed to Fox and other stuff, yes, you're going to lose out for like a World Cup slot and everything. People are going to go there as well to get that. But your day-to-day, your day-to-day is still ESPN. And it's because it's got that brand and it's because what underpins it isn't just that they're able to show Athletes Unlimited or Pickleball or whatever they're showing on ESPN 2 at 3 a.m. it's because you think there's more there, that there's a larger foundation built under what they're doing and that it's comprehensive when it comes to sports.

24:29That's my opinion. No, that's well argued. Okay, Austin, you've heard from the plaintiff and you've heard from the defendant. What's your thought? I think ESPN does have the brand that Jane is talking about. It is the top of the mountain. Maybe that's why everyone was going after it. That's why everyone wanted the names. It's, you know, take the king off the mountain sort of thing. It's the recess sort of fight. They're in a tough spot. I think, Richard, I kind of agree with you a little bit. I think live sports does drive the ship, and they're going to have to spend – it's going to be so outbalanced going into these future years, how much they have to spend on those live rights versus what they can deliver in journalism and other sorts of things.

25:11When Outside the Lines went away, yeah, that sucked. I mean, I threw a hissy fit when ESPN Daily the podcast went away because then they started farming out all of their audio too because that was like I felt one of the last passions of like original reporting, creative journalism that they were able to do from, you know, Mina and Pablo and everybody on down. But that's where it's going. Live rights does drive the ship. NFL games and NBA games and whatever have you, that's what brings in the numbers and you can kind of adjust everything else. And ESPN has a lot of other important talent decisions coming up.

25:44We've already talked about McAfee getting his bag. A lot of that is production costs because he pays his own show out of that. But also you've had Joe Buck on your show talking about like he's in the last year coming up of his deal. And it's not just him. You got Troy Aikman. Those are going to be some very big salary, very, very big salaries that they're going to have to pay out if they want to keep those folks. Jane, let me I'm going back to my my cynicism here. OK, you can you can sort of counter this. OK, again, like both of us, like, you know, I just sent out like that excellent bit of reporting the reporters did on the Rooney rule ESPN, which I really admire.

26:18Like they went for that piece. I don't know if you read that, Jane, but they did. Kaylin Kaler and company did a really good piece on the on sort of how the Rooney rule is essentially kayfabe and in the NFL. But my larger point is that they've made a decision to, I think, to put their big bets on like the McAfee's and the Smith's and those kind of shows. And while they have higher journalists and, you know, including in the last year and a half, they've added a number of really, really good ones. I think there's a limit to like that kind of investment versus what they're clearly investing in, which I think is sort of more trying to attract a lot of men between 18 and 40, probably those who like college football and live in the middle of the country.

27:09and sort of trying to maintain their place in the sports ecosystem, which is obviously at the top. So I am a little bit cynic. Like, again, like I appreciate them doing this. I guess what I would say to you is I think if they ever had to like make a decision and like it was all on the line and they needed to cut stuff, like that stuff would journal and stuff would be gone in a second and they'd just be a live rights entity. I mean, for now, I think you're right. but you also are not, I mean, I'm just going to, this is just a debate show now. I'm just going to be in the other chair. This is second take happening right now.

27:47So everything I, everything I dislike I've become is what you're saying. Although I feel good. I'm just essentially like the CNN 10 o 'clock hour. So go ahead. But what I'm saying is, yeah, that's happening right now. I mean, I lived through, you know, I was there for almost 10 years. I lived through, you know, six or seven different initiatives and changing winds when it came to that. They're always changing who they are. They're always trying on a new hat. You know, if McAfee fails or if, you know, Stephen A starts to lose ratings, they will try something different. Maybe they go back to journalism.

28:18Maybe they go try something. Maybe they try something else. Maybe they try to, you know, actually pretend like women's sports exist in a full and robust way and try to get the other 50 percent of all sports fans that they leave on the table. A lot of the times when they when they make the programming decisions that they do. But I think, you know, this is definitely where they're going right now, but it's not forever necessarily. But if they undermine the journalism of the brand entirely, and I agree with you, I'm very disappointed in the decisions that they've made regarding journalism in the last couple of years.

28:48But if they abandon that completely, they become absolutely indistinguishable from all the bloviators out there. And there are plenty of younger, cheaper ways to just do hot air balloons. Okay. I mean, again, it's a well-argued thesis by you. Austin, sort of finishing up here, anything like as we're finishing up on the ESPN layoff conversation, did any – I mean, maybe nothing should stun you at this point just given who we've seen laid off. But was there any one – and admittedly, I'm focusing on, like, high-profile people for this. Was there anybody who really surprised you? Were you like, wow, like, I think that person was indispensable, and I can't believe they made this decision?

29:35There have been over the years a couple for me, like, you know, Van Gundy, Jeff Van Gundy, who was like – that made no sense to me. That was the best, in my opinion, on-air television NBA analyst, and it made no sense to me. So, you know, some of these moves do come up. There's always been writers I like who I think they've made some really terrible moves on. But in this grouping here, was there one that you're like, man, like, that makes no sense? I'll give you two answers for the price of one here. The one that made the most – I guess made the most sense to me was Tom Pellicero because you don't need three NFL insiders.

30:08You got Rappaport. You got Schefter. Like, do you need three NFL insiders? I get that. Move on. I'll get back to what I said at the beginning. the one that made the least amount of sense to me is Carl Ravitch because it feels like, you know, ESPN wanted to stay in the business of Major League Baseball. They are in the business of Major League Baseball. They want more teams coming in on the app. They want to stay involved in the next round of media rights. And when I think baseball these days, it's Carl Ravitch on ESPN. Like, when I think ESPN and baseball, it's always been Carl Ravitch. When I think Little League Baseball, it's Carl Ravitch.

30:43Like, he means baseball for ESPN. And so it was kind of head-scratching to me to think about what is the future. When I think about MLB and its future with ESPN, it feels like we're starting over essentially in terms of who's the face of baseball there now. What about you, Jane? Anybody sort of stand out in that sense? I mean, to me, Stefania Bell. I feel like what ESPN does is really kick people in the pants on the way out as after they've done nothing but try to build value for the network. That's something I've seen happen over and over again. And I feel like she was one of those people. Also, you know, not a self-promoter, not somebody, but did the job that she was doing extremely well.

31:28I had Kate Fagan in my class today. You know, Sarah Spain and I get together. I go on her podcast. I look around the sports landscape and I see incredibly talented people who all used to work at ESPN. And so to me, you know, they've left behind so much talent. And I imagine, you know, what would the network be? And, you know, obviously ESPN just feels like it'll be able to exist no matter what the, you know, who the players are on the roster. But they've had some incredible talent. And, you know, there's a cost to not maximizing that talent. I guess, is it cheaper to go with Pat McAfee than it is, you know, to build up a great magazine lineup and utilize that in ways and on platforms that connect with younger audiences as well?

32:13I mean, we'll never know because that's not the direction that was taken. But it's just there's a lot of talent on the on the cutting room floor, unfortunately. And what breaks my heart a little bit is that, you know, it used to be that the saying would be, oh, you know, you'll get picked up in no time. There just are not enough chairs in the game of musical chairs anymore. And not everyone is going to get picked up. And so to me, you know, it's sad to see the business where, you know, that I've loved and where I've made my living become a place that is no longer hospitable to those who have done groundbreaking work in the field.

32:46And unlike other industries, you know, we do that to the people who've contributed to ours. That's really well said. Awesome. One of the things that I took away from this, and it's again, no guarantee, even if you do this, but I think if you're a young person who loves sports media, and wants to be in the sports media business, you know, whether you're on air or behind the scenes or something like that, I think more and more every day is you have to own your own content in some form or fashion, you know, whether that's like your own YouTube channel, or you try to, you know, you know, you've create your own sort of, you know, social media empire, TikTok version, whatever, whatever.

33:22it is. And again, most of the people who do that are obviously not going to hit it out of the park. And unfortunately, sometimes like the incentive becomes, okay, I'm going to be the next loudest person ever to, and just sort of hot take myself out. But the reality is like, that's your shot here is to own your own content and to try to try to be in a position at least where you're not every, every financial part of you is not dependent on a company like an ESPN or the athletic or SBJ or whatever. And at least you have something else. I'm sure Jane, you would agree with this too. Both of us teach still today.

33:57You know, the problem is like, even if you have your own piece of content, like doesn't guarantee you enough money to pay your bills. Like, so like, I get that, but that's one thing I was thinking about. If you're like, if you're 22 and you see all this at ESPN and if you're a young person, I think you have to invest in something that you own and maybe you become one of the five percenters where it becomes like you can make money. 5 %? Is it even 5 %? Maybe it's not 1%. Yeah, but everyone thinks they can be iShowSpeed or whatever his name is. If I'm giving advice to somebody like that, yeah, maybe you want to experiment with that sort of thing, but if you want to...

34:33If you're interested more in the journalism side, I'd say go take one of Jane's classes. Try to be a student and really try to learn about the business there. But ESPN also has shown that they can still develop writing talent into TV talent. I'm thinking like Emily Kaplan, who went from writer to, you know, ringside, and she's one of the best in the business now. So they can still do that. That also seems to be, you know, less and less and less the norm these days. But they can still do that. Also, Jane, if you're an Emily Kaplan, like financially, you have to try to go for TV, right? Like it's just like the incentives are such where like the only person I can think of who's like a long form specialist left at ESPN.

35:14I mean like Wright Thompson Seth Wickersham and Don Van Nadeau although the other two dudes are investigated like you know what I'm saying like I grew up in Europe as you did too and Austin's a little younger than us but like you know like SI was once upon a time like your dream that was my dream place but you could make a living trying to be Gary Smith or Scott Price or you know Tim Layden like that that job doesn't even exist anymore or if it exists it's like 10 people in the entire country yeah Liz Merrill Lissie, you're leaving out at Easton. There you go. She still does incredible work there.

35:46But yeah, I mean, I did a storytelling class today where we read some of Bill Mack's leads out loud, you know, for the metrics he actually used to use rhythm, as you know, in his storytelling. He felt like that was an important part of the piece. I can't imagine half the writers that are working now utilizing that. Grantland Rice, you know, none of my students had heard of Grantland Rice. But that's, you know, that's the world we live in. But what I will say is that for young writers and young storytellers, there is nothing like sports writing to train you to do something else. Also, it is a great place to figure out how to interview people, how to tell a story, how to how to find out things in the world.

36:29There are a lot of things about sports writing, it may not, it may not be able to support a professional class at scale right now. And that's fine. But there are lots of things that you can do with the first 10 years of your life that are a lot better. And a lot of people wander around in the wilderness for that long anyway before finding out what their purpose is and what they really want to do with their life. And so I would say we need journalists. We need journalists in sports. So this is not the time to shy away from that. The financial model that supports it is very different. But, you know, my hope is that there are going to be enough people who can figure out in the future how to do it where it doesn't just become, you know, people yelling about the last fact.

37:11You know, there's that that, you know, there's that meme about, you know, people arguing over the last fact once people are unable to determine what facts are anymore. There's just one left and people start arguing about it. So I do think, you know, we've kind of been it's so reductive right now what's happening and what the kind of entertainment is. But that is entertainment. It's not sports journalism. And sports journalism is still vital. And being reductive doesn't always work. Okay. Even if you look at some of the numbers for what a lot of these barstool shows have delivered to Fox Sports 1, the audience is not there.

37:41Well, it may be on YouTube. That has not translated to TV at all. Yeah. But they have other avenues to do that. But yeah, like there is a, what it sure shows us a lot of times is like, there's a difference between legacy viewing still or traditional viewing. Right. And like, and the, the newer world, by the way, I should mention, you know, I'm probably not mentioning, I'm probably being a little too hyperbole. There's obviously more than 10 probably sports feature writer jobs, obviously, to include The Athletic. There's a ton of them. Hallie Grossman at ESPN, who just wrote the Sophie Cunningham feature, which was interesting, is there.

38:12Liz Merrill, as Jane mentioned, and there are others. But my sort of larger point is there was a time that people really, like their dreams were to be these feature writers. And there was going to always be work in so many different places, including ESPN. And that has certainly changed. All right. I mean, unless you guys want to – this is like PTI. Unless you have 30 seconds on Kathy Engelberg this weekend speaking to the media, finally. Jane, I'll give you this before we get out of here. It's a total harsh right turn here on this. But I have to be honest. I'm really looking forward to seeing what the WNBA commissioner has to say because her league obviously has been in the news for many correct reasons.

38:59Also, obviously, there's some bad faith artists out there. But she has barely talked to the press outside of what looks like to me today. I think it looks like they set ESPN up with an interview prior to her talking to the broader press, which is smart PR. You want to get some of your messaging out there. But this is interesting. The press has a big opportunity here, right, to talk to Kathy for the first time in a long time. This is an interesting sports media story. Yeah, well, you know, it's the biggest weekend of the year. The All-Star Game has really grown to be something that people would have only dreamed about 10 years ago.

39:32She's done an amazing job in a lot of ways in that seat. If you look where the WNBA is now, as opposed to where it was when she came in as commissioner, it is light years beyond it. She is not able to be her own executive. The NBA still, you know, she's in the building with the NBA. You know, her staff is partly NBA staff. So she is not an autonomous actor in a lot of ways, like a lot of league commissioners are. So I get that. I think also women in leadership are in this double bind. If they are likable, then they do not seem to have authority. If they have authority, then they are not likable.

40:09So, you know, so she does wrestle with all those things. At the same time, she is looked at very unfavorably right now in a lot of different ways. fans, players. You know, she was really hard dinged by the CBA and the negotiations that came along with that. She has not been accessible in a way that it does her any favors. I don't necessarily know what the league's media strategy is. It doesn't make sense to me as somebody who cares about the league and watches and sees what they do. I think there's a lot of room for improvement in that and shaking up that staff in a way that would allow them to maybe seem less sequestered, less in an ivory tower.

40:51They seem very inaccessible and unresponsive in some ways. And I think that humanizing her a little bit would go a long way, not just for fans, but also for players, being able to kind of see her for who she is, what makes her tick, what does she think? I just don't even know. That might be dictated by Kathy. And actually, there's a number of people in the WNBA PR apparatus who I like a lot and I think are pretty smart. But some of that could just be your, you know, if your executive doesn't want to do it, you can't do it. You know what I'm saying? Like, if your executive isn't one who loves that kind of back and forth that some commissioners do, you're in trouble.

41:29And also what's very clear with Kathy is that she, for as great as business skills as she's had, you've got to give her full marks for that. Her inability to connect with her own players is just her own doing. Like, even if you don't, even if you fake it, you got to fake it. You know what I mean? Like David Stern had Michael Jordan on speed dial. Adam Silver has a close relationship with LeBron and Steph. It's inconceivable to me that Kathy would not, at this point of her tenure, have a great relationship with Nafisa Collier in Asia. Well, like one of her star players called her out, like in Nafisa Collier.

42:01That's, I've never seen that before, you know? That's to you, Jay. Oh, that's to me. Okay. I was waiting for Austin to chime in. I agree with you. I feel like it's a real missed opportunity. What you don't want to see is that this tension hold the league back as a whole. And I think we're getting to a point now where it's enough of an issue. You know, people are constantly asking whether or not, you know, when she's going to resign or if she's going to be fired or what's going to happen next. and that's just not when you have so much momentum behind the WNBA right now that's just not a great secondary conversation to have going on all the time and you know and again I think there's a real opportunity there like I said I like Kathy I feel like she's done so much for the league that's been done right I don't know if it's a structural problem between the way that the WNBA is nested within the NBA that means that they can't be more flexible and responsive whatever Whatever it is, though, needs to change because it is now getting in the way at the moment.

43:03All right. Awesome. I'm going to give you the final word on this. Two quick things just for me. One, we're not going to get into it just for timing wise, but sometimes you need editors to save you. That's probably my would have been my thought on Nancy Armour column on Caitlin Clark. and then the last one speaking of Caitlin Clark once again as literally this happened about an hour before we taped this I saw her press conference at the All-Star game and I can't tell you just I am always blown away by how thoughtful and how good she is in her situation I don't think it can be said enough I know there's so many people who want her to be this and that she's an avatar essentially for everybody but whenever I see her face the world's media I always think of her equivalent as LeBron, that this is a very young person who's being asked to be essentially perfect in the biggest media hailstorm.

43:57And she almost always is when she's in those situations. So shout out to Kaitlin Clark. I think on that, as great a basketball player she is, I've been blown away just by how good she is with the press. All right, Austin, on all this Kathy stuff, I'll let you have the final word. And then Jane must get back to class. So we must get her out of here. Go ahead. You know, I think we've reported my colleague conference has reported that, you know, she's not going to get that extension, that she is going to be out at the league. He reported that almost a year ago. We'll see if she gets that extension.

44:25I don't know. Maybe they do need a fresh face to continue the momentum. Maybe that's what they need to do this. Or maybe it's some corporate sort of thing, like Jane was talking about, the way that it's nestled into the NBA. Maybe it needs to be spun off a little bit more, you know, increase the staff, the dedicated staff that are just focused on NBA, so they don't have to borrow people from down the hall that They're doing, you know, NBA is their day job or something like that. It has that feel with a lot of the WNBA, NBA interaction. Like, you know, we also do the WNBA. I think it needs to be its own thing.

44:56It's there. It's arrived. It's past due for that to have more staff, more focus just on that league. All right, awesome. Carp's going to stick around. We'll get into LeBron. We will bid adieu to Jane McManus. Great of her to come on. I literally just emailed her to ask her to do this today. My longtime buddy. I always appreciate it. Thank you, Jane. Enjoy clapping. Anytime, Rich, you know I'm on your speed dial. Fall's finally here. So boots are back, slip-ons get cozier, and you officially have the perfect excuse to switch up your look from heel to toe. At Designer Shoe Warehouse, you'll find on-trend and forever favorite fall styles to obsess over.

45:33Get reimagined loafers to gorgeously tall boots, wild animal prints to rich autumnal browns. At DSW, there's always something unexpected to fall for and always at just the right price. DSW. Let us surprise you. Head to your DSW store or shop dsw.com today. Hi, this is Jill Schlesinger, CBS News Business Analyst, Certified Financial Planner, and the host of the Jill on Money podcast. With the end of the year upon us, it is the perfect time to check in on your finances. And the Jill on Money show is here to help. Your questions make it possible for me to provide unconventional and entertaining insights on your money, and more importantly, on your life.

46:15Follow and listen to Jill on Money wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Jay McManus has to run. So we appreciate her time and an excellent conversation, I hope, for you guys when it came to the ESPN layoffs. But there are some other topics that I want to get to. Austin Karp obviously remains. Austin, as we were, not immediately as we were taping this, but just a couple hours ago after taping this, massive, massive NBA news. LeBron James announces that he will be going to the Philadelphia Sixers on a ridiculously great deal for that team. But for the purposes of this podcast, you know, the league was essentially waiting for LeBron to make his decision because it dictates what the national games are.

47:00And I looked up last year, Lakers and Warriors had, at least at the start of the season, roughly 34 or so national TV games. Unquestionably now, Sixers will be that top team for sure. So I wanted to just sort of get your sense of like, so what's this mean? Like when you saw LeBron to the Sixers and you're thinking of like in terms of media, what was your first thought on this? My first thought was win all around. Congratulations to NBC, which has all the opening night games as part of this new media deal. And we already saw what that benefit was for the NBA last year just by having it on broadcast TV.

47:34And it wasn't moving away from TNT where it had been for years. And that was the best opening night since LeBron went to the Heat back in 2010. So you can get an indication of what the audience might be. So who are you going to match them up against? Is it now 76ers next to open the season? If you put that on opening night, you're probably talking in the range of, I got to figure you're thinking 8 million view or something like that, which is crazy for an opening night, but it's not just NBC getting the win. I'm thinking, okay, who gets Christmas day? Yeah. Is that Celtics 76ers didn't even have a Christmas day game last year.

48:08You know, they were two years ago. They did play the Celtics. Maybe they run that back. You got the Jalen Brown angle outside of LeBron. A lot of permutations there beyond just like tonnage of national gains. But, I mean, make no illusion, though. Yes, the NBA was waiting on LeBron to make this decision for a lot of the tentpole reasons that we were just talking about here. So sort of thinking about this, like usually you want the champion, right, on opening night. Like that's right. You should be on opening night. Yeah. So then in thinking about that, I know that there's probably a bit of an appeal of a West Coast, East Coast thing, but I think in that sense, I think it's a no-brainer.

48:47LeBron's first game with the Sixers would be itself a massive event night. If you combine that as an opening night game against the champs, I'm with you. I'm a big believer when it comes to if you can do it for these leagues. Go for it on opening. You know what I'm saying? Like, don't try to like, oh, we'll keep the Bills back or we'll keep the Chiefs back. I like the mega opening because I'm a big believer in momentum play for viewership. So I'm with you on that. That, to me, is the game. What's bigger? Nothing's bigger than that. In the late window, you start it early. You go with an opening at 7 o 'clock.

49:23You go with that 76ers-Knicks. And maybe you come back with Spurs-Thunder with a late window. Gives you that Western Conference final matchup. Richard, another thing I'm thinking about is when LeBron first went west, when he left the Eastern Conference, what you saw in those early windows, whether it was TNT or ESPN, you started seeing a lot of slippage in that early window of the doubleheader night because there was no big name to kind of drive that. And I'm talking about a slip of around 30 % in viewership right off the bat when he went to the Lakers because there just wasn't a marquee attraction.

49:55Yeah, I mean, the Knicks sucked at the time, so you just didn't really have a big draw. Now you can slot LeBron in so many of those early windows, and the West is still the West. They're going to have plenty of marquee names and talent and teams and when Ben Yom and whatever to draw in the back half. So I think the NBA, which is coming off an incredible ratings game already. A lot of that was having to do with their new media rights deal, NBC into the equation. They may be thinking about, hey, maybe we can keep this gravy train going. Well, I'm glad you brought that up because that literally was going to be my next point.

50:26The reality is, as great as LeBron James is, you are hurt by the fact that the Lakers start at whatever, you know, 1030, 1005. because there's still whatever the number is, 60 % of the people live east of the Mississippi. So now to me, and during the heyday, you also had Steph Curry there. So you really had the two biggest draws in the league on the West Coast. To me, I now expect a legitimate viewership pop in 2026-27 because LeBron's games, at least when they're home, are going to be early. Like I'm sure the NBA gurus who do the broadcasting subs world thinking about this, but for the last couple of years, you know, you would lose him a little bit when you're playing in LA, especially if the Lakers weren't playing great and you just like, didn't want to tune in now, even just the casuals.

51:17I feel like if you're just, you know, channel surfing or something like that and it's seven 35 and it's LeBron versus the Celtics, LeBron versus the Pistons or whatever, you know what I'm saying on East coast time. I think that's awesome. That was one thing that I, that I was particularly looking at was like, would he sign with any, I don't love it as a, you know, someone wants to see the Raptors do well. I think the Raptors just took another step behind the Sixers. But, like, I think it's actually great for the league in terms of viewership. Great. I agree. And just thinking from a young viewer perspective, in my house, I have two rabid NBA fan sons who are 10 and 14, and it's the middle of the school year when a lot of these games are on.

51:51And, yeah, they want to stay up to watch Steph versus LeBron, but the thing wasn't starting until 10 o 'clock, 9.30, the earliest, like you're talking about. But now we can start a game at 7 o 'clock and they can actually see LeBron play. And, you know, is this his last season? I know there's a player option for next year, but this might be the last crack where they can actually watch him on a regular basis. And we know the NBA skews a little younger. And maybe, yes, that helps some of the West Coast audience because rabid NBA fans will stay up for that and young people can stay up as long as they want.

52:19I need to get my beauty sleep. But I think it helps these Eastern Conference games in particular. Totally. And the Sixers would have been a good draw anyway with Jalen Brown, Joel Embiid, Maxie, et cetera. Now they're a super draw. Now they're – They'll max out on the number of TV appearances. Yeah, I'm just trying to – I'm trying to do it in my head. Obviously, Steph Curry will always be a massive draw with the Warriors. They're the league's best draw. You know? I'm just thinking off the top of my head. As great as the Thunder are with Shea, they're not a bigger draw than the Sixers. As great as Webinyama is, he'd be close, but I don't think it's a bigger draw now as the Sixers give him the star power.

52:55Knicks are a draw, but even these guys, these guys are the biggest draw. The Sixers have become the biggest draw in the NBA. But you would see in the last season, they try to get some Spurs games because they're in that central time zone into the early window a little bit sometimes, maybe start them a little earlier. Now with LeBron being the focus and the Knicks probably maxing out on games coming off the title, you're going to want to see, if you're an NBA scheduler, you're going to probably want to put a few more of those Spurs games as late as possible to buttress. So, yeah, the Western Conference, those late window games.

53:26All right, let me get to a couple of other quick topics before we get out here. I had Donovan Bennett and Arash Madani on. We did go pretty big on sort of what does the World Cup viewership and excitement and engagement mean heading forward. But those are Canadian-based guys. You're my U.S.-based person. You're more of a – no offense to those two knuckleheads, but you're far more the expert on this. So World Cup final draws nearly 63 million if you include both the English and Spanish broadcast. But essentially, Fox and Telemundo Peacock, those numbers obviously were massive. I think at this point, if you listen to this podcast, you've already seen that, at least on social media or whatever.

54:07You know how massive it was. One of the statistics you probably didn't know, but I'll give it to you here. Fox averaged 7.737 million viewers for the entire tournament for all 104 broadcasts across Fox FS1 and 2. That's incredible. Think about that. It's nearly 8 million viewers as an average for this tournament is just unbelievable. That was up more, I mean, 200%, whatever it was. It was up from like 3.5 million in 2022. Obviously, different times, different measurement, et cetera. All that said, Austin, I wrote this. one of my last pieces at The Athletic. I do still believe it. I am a believer that this is an event.

54:48It was an incredible event. One of the great events we've seen in a long time. I am not one who believes that there's going to be a mega carryover to whether it's MLS or the Premier League, where all of a sudden you're going to see double the audiences this year. Now, I would love to see that as a soccer fan. I would love that to be the case. I just don't buy it yet, but I'm looking for some counter arguments. I'm curious how you see it. You're not going to get it here. I totally agree that this was a moment in time. This was an incredible event. This was an NFL season's worth. Not everything was a Super Bowl.

55:20Johnny Infantino is, you know, doesn't know what he's talking about when he says there were 104 Super Bowls, but it was 100. It was close to 104 NFL type games like it put on the equivalent of that sort of thing. You can even ask the expert, the real experts out there, whether it's Mike Moldehill, Flora Kelly, they'll tell you that sort of thing that these numbers were really good. And you have to include the Spanish language, by the way, because this is not some event where it's getting like one, two percent of the audience, the Spanish language. We're talking about 40 to 50 percent a lot of times in the audience.

55:49So the Spanish language is incredibly important here. But we already saw the first evidence this past Friday, right, or a week ago when you MLS came on. They had Friday night windows, you know, a doubleheader on Big Fox. Neither one of those games got to 600 ,000 viewers. It got outdrawn by ION with its WNBA coverage. Yes, it had some Caitlin Clark, but even that got over a million viewers in that 730 window, almost doubling what the MLS game had. So you're not seeing that sort of effect yet. It's not going to have an impact on Apple. I don't really think it's going to have too much of an impact on the Premier League on NBC or USA or a lot of these other leagues.

56:25I don't think everyone's going to be downloading the Fandango app to watch Bundesliga now that it's headed over that way. That's such an interesting experiment, though, but that's a topic for a couple of the time. Yeah, but I think the broader question is who wants it next? What's it going to look like? Who does it make sense for these next two World Cups? Because it's not going to match what you did here. Everything matched up for U.S. audience. Now you're talking about stuff that's five to seven hours ahead for the next two World Cups. That's a tougher sell, but it showed what it can do with the U.S.

56:59audience, which is incredible. you um you spoke with mike mulvihill their director of strategy and analytics i spoke to brad zager the president i mean obviously they both were you know allulient in terms of just like how great a tournament it was and if you're fox you know it's a home run i talked about this on your podcast i mean um you know you have to give them in terms of like how they felt about it's an a plus for them unquestionably but you're right the next real interesting question there's a couple interesting questions like one what's the number of teams in the tournament heading forward because that relates to media to hydration breaks which i absolutely think are going to exist again i'd be stunned if it didn't there's too much money to be made but the one that like people the consumers people who listen to this podcast really care about it's like where it's going to air and so everybody has said that they want it you know fox said to me they want it um espn's been public like they want it netflix obviously is going to be interested that they They want both languages.

57:54Right. NBC has said they want both languages. They talk to you. Netflix already has the Women's World Cup, so they're clearly going to be interested. I haven't seen or read anything yet about Amazon, but in terms of like – I'm sure it's been reported they're interested. I just haven't seen any person quoted from Amazon, but I would imagine that's a yes as well. Austin, I'm always of the belief that when push comes to shove, organizations like FIFA and the IOC only go with the most money. They can say, we loved how you did our broadcast. We think you treated our sport or our event great. But when have any of these places ever, generally speaking, not gone to the highest bidder?

58:31So let me ask you, who's in a position to be the highest bidder for this specific property, 2030 World Cup, 2034 World Cup? I mean, it is really tough to bet against somebody like a Netflix, a Prime Video, if they wanted to get involved because they have just, you know, Scrooge McDuck levels of cash sitting around in a bin that they can dive into. And ESPN has the money. They're very sensible on what they have spent money on. They've let things go that were good and would have drawn numbers like the Big Ten and had a 40-year relationship there. But the numbers didn't add up, and they let the Big Ten go.

59:10They've been smart about what they've got. Fox and NBC are kind of a different calculus here. I don't know what Fox looks like in 2034. I think right now they're well-capitalized. they have done a very good job as a steward of the World Cup. They have. Since 2018, since they first aired the Men's World Cup, they have done a really good job. They don't really have the Spanish language side, so if FIFA decides that they want it all in one house, I'm not sure that Fox and Portes is at that level. I just don't think it is. Fox and Portes just hasn't accumulated a mass audience over these years. And NBC, you know, NBC made those comments to me on the record, out in the open.

59:51Like we were interested in the World Cup, but that came a day or two after Comcast announced they're kind of going to be spinning off the NBCU side. So who knows what NBCU also looks like down the road. But these are huge companies. OK, these are all big companies. They all have a lot of money. There's also NFL rights, NFL renegotiations coming up. Not just for, you know, what it'll look like right now or for the next couple of years. But now we're talking about the NFL rights deal after that, because regardless, it's probably going to be up after 2033. These NFL deals we're talking about right now are just buying out those look in years after what, 2029 for most of these networks.

1:00:31So we're talking about two versions, two potential NFL media rights upticks during the course of what would be this FIFA World Cup deal. A lot of calculus there for somebody like Fox, NBC, ESPN and others, because ESPN is also interested in other things that are coming up. We know March Madness, that'll be up in the early 2030s. They're very much interested in that. They are the regular season home of college basketball. They are more than anybody else. So a lot of future questions for a lot of these companies. Awesome. Listeners are either enjoying me and you, like, being on podcasts together twice in one week, or they're like, enough of these idiots.

1:01:09My God. My God. Can't these two idiots get better guests or different guests? Anyway, I appreciate your time and insight. Obviously, follow all of Austin's work on SBJ as well as various platforms, as well as the, or I should say, as well as the Sports Business Journal platform. Same goes, obviously, for Jane McManus, catch all her work on social media as well as storied sports, et cetera. If you like these kind of conversations, please head to the archives. We will have now done two podcasts on the ESPN layoffs, including one sort of a Canadian version, which was a couple of days ago with Donovan Bennett and Rashford Donnie.

1:01:51Hopefully that was of interest to you. Jimmy Train was on this podcast the week before. Derek Ray, one of the best soccer broadcasters in the world. And he will be part of the Bundesliga World Feed. Now, obviously, with that, rights holder, partnerships changing. Gina Oramma was on this podcast on July 6th. I'm trying to think who else off the top of my head who you might be interested in. Stan Van Gundy on in June as well, speaking of basketball. Anyway, if you like this stuff, please leave us a review and a note. That's how the podcast continues. I want to thank James Jackson for all his hard work.

1:02:30He is a massive Philadelphia 76ers fan, so he is very, very psyched at the news today. I want to thank everybody on our CPF Sport. And most of all, thank you for listening. We'll see you soon on the Sports Media Podcast. Okay, here we go, guys. Thanks for doing this. Awesome, thank you. Here we go. Five, four, three, two, one.

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