Troy Aikman's ESPN run looks like it's coming to an end

0:09Welcome to the Sports Media Podcast. I'm your host Richard Deitsch. My producer is James Jackson. This is our usual Saturday roundtable. Far and away the most popular part of this podcast, I think. We have John Lewis, founder and editor of Sports Media Watch. Austin Karp, sports media reporter and columnist and podcaster for Sports Business Journal. Chad Finn, the sports media columnist for the Boston Globe. I've been told in pre-show meetings that John Lewis and Chad Finn might have workers at their relative abodes. So if you hear background noise of landscaping or something like that, blame those two.

0:48Don't blame Austin and me. Welcome, guys. How are you? I'm expecting my dog to not interrupt this time. Austin, your dog has had a massive cameo appearance on this podcast, And the dog will get residuals in a couple months for the appearance. All right. So here's where we'll start. I mean, obviously, we're going to start with what is, I think, far and away the biggest story in our world. And that's Troy Aikman slash Troy Aikman and Joe Buck's current relationship. I think if you're listening to this podcast, I think you've read a lot about what's been going on. In the quickest sort of shortest terms, I can do it.

1:22Joe Buck has re-signed with ESPN heading forward, so he's set. Troy Aikman has not. Troy Aikman came on this podcast and said that as far as negotiations with ESPN, he had not had any negotiations with ESPN after Joe Buck had signed his deal. This obviously has led to a lot of different places in terms of reporting. Ryan Glassbeagle of Front Office Sports reported that the two had an argument at Monday Night Football. Troy Aikman has since discussed not only with a Dallas radio station, but also with our buddy Jimmy Trena. He's pretty clearly said that like where the winds are blowing. This is to this is to train it.

2:12It just seems to be where they're going, meaning ESPN, that they're going to go in a different direction because there's no talks, no contract negotiations. We're in a Super Bowl year. The Super Bowl is February 14th. My contract ends in March. It just doesn't seem logical that if they were going to keep me, something wouldn't be in place before that. All right. I'll save my thoughts on all this until you guys are done. But Austin, I can't remember a time where we have seen such a prominent figure in sports media circles be that public about where a relationship is going specific to someone who has been one of the best, if not the best at his profession.

2:52How are you seeing all this? First of all, I do think he's the best NFL analyst out there in terms of A-boots in particular. but this is probably not how ESPN wanted this to go. This is not the Disney happiest place in the world approach that you want before the super bowl. They're now going to have to have this as a subtext for everything that they're going to be announcing around the super bowl. Like it's not all going to be hunky dory. You have a very big thing looming over you. Okay. In terms of your top analyst and your top play-by-play announcer, potentially being at odds with one another, they're not going to make a change.

3:27These guys are going to be the ones who call the super bowl. They're pros. They're going to do it right. If you don't know what's going on beneath the surface and you're just paying attention to the game, you probably won't notice a damn thing. But we knew this all was going to be a big issue. We knew that musical chairs among all these A-boots, not just ESPN, but across the board, we knew it was going to be a big issue this entire season. It's just we've gotten some nuggets. We got nuggets with Herbstreit. We got nuggets with Buck. But this one is, you know, this is page six material now, so it lends itself a little better to chatter like this.

3:57All right, John Lewis, Austin hit on a couple of different points there. One, I think something smart he just said is that there's really no way for ESPN to escape this now in terms of people talking about it, especially at the Super Bowl. You have the most sports media at one event, I think, of any of the major events in the United States. There's going to be reporters who are going to be asking about it, talking about it. I don't think ESPN can avoid it. And that is an interesting subtext because they have been waiting so long to do a Super Bowl. They have been pushing like – they literally hired a guy.

4:37I think Andy Tennant's job is basically just to think about how to present the Super Bowl in different ways. So now you're going to have people writing about your announcing booth because it's a big story. It's interesting. And John Lewis, this is fascinating to me because as I have written, like Jimmy Pataro's charter when he first came to ESPN was to fix the NFL relationship. And he did that magnificently, quite frankly, and Buck and Aikman were part of that. So it is it is incredible now as we tape this in the middle of October to think that one of the subplots of ESPN Super Bowl is going to be the potential dissolution of their top booth.

5:18It's amazing. Well, I mean, it's it's it's an exercise in in mismanagement. And, you know, look, Aikman deserves some scrutiny here because Aikman likes to negotiate through the media, likes to discuss the ins and outs of his contract. And frankly, arguably has jumped the gun here because my understanding, based on what Andrew Marchand reported last month, is that ESPN wants to wait until the end of the Super Bowl to negotiate not just with Aikman, but with Kirk Herbstreit. And they're not getting rid of Kirk Herbstreit. So who knows? Maybe they've intended to keep Troy the entire time. But Troy obviously sees it as, I mean, obviously in his previous negotiations, he made a big deal about the fact that Fox did not communicate with him.

6:01So he does not like the lack of communication. I do think that when all is said and done here, ESPN has created a circumstance needlessly where it has alienated its top analysts, driven a wedge between its booth that obviously have worked together for 25 years and are long-term friends and created something that will overshadow that Super Bowl. You can't call that anything other than a management failure. Chad, one thing that John just said there that I totally agree with is Buck and Aikman are massive professionals. First of all, they've been friends for a long time. So my sense is that whatever is happening will heal anyway.

6:38But the one thing that won't be impacted is performance. These guys are going to be professional. The Bills-Rams game, you would have never known anything was going on in that booth. They just called a great game. And in some ways, like all three of us, all four of us on this podcast, you know, ESPN can rightfully blame because we're going to talk about it. So, like, they'll say, well, you guys are making it an issue because it's an issue. Like, I get it. That's probably fair criticism, but it is an issue. You're dealing with the most popular sport in the United States. They're the main booth on Monday Night Football, one of the most important sports franchises that exist.

7:15so the part i want to ask you about is performance wise do you think the audience at all when they're now watching the games is going to be thinking about whatever issues are going on with aikman contract wise whatever issues might be going on between buck or aikman or is there this um what's the word i'm looking for like you can compartmentalize it as a football fan you're just basically only thinking about the game and you don't get into that the other stuff Yeah, it probably depends if you actually have a rooting interest in the game, right? If you're watching it because you care about the Rams or Bills or whoever's playing, that's what you're more focused on.

7:55But if you're just kind of one of the millions of casual watchers or tuning in because it's Monday Night Football, you'll be looking for it. We're going to be looking for that tension now. I don't think we'll see it, but that's an element that's been added to this broadcast because of Troy doing something that a lot of really high-profile media figures don't do, and that speak publicly about how they feel about their negotiations. It's part of why I like Aikman so much as somebody who covers media and also just as a football fan watching his broadcast. The last couple of years, he's been in don't-give-a-F mode, to put it the simplest way I can, where he's honest about what he sees and very casual almost about being critical in a good way.

8:48And I think that's kind of transferred too to how he's talked about this situation. So I think it's a mistake the way ESPN is handling it. I don't want to see his team break up. I think it's the best one that the league has right now. But the way Troy talks about it feels almost like a fait accompli. Austin, let me go to you and let's try to take the side here of Jimmy Pataro and ESPN. Okay. So we'll put our business caps on and think of it this way. If Troy Aikman is asking for, I don't think he's asking probably for exactly what Tom Brady's making. But I'm going to play the game that CAA and Troy Aikman are asking for something, let's say, in the over$25 million,$30 million range.

9:35like whatever that might be, because that's the going rate for a top analyst as the market is set by Tom Brady. If you are Jimmy Pataro, even if you like the Aikman buck booth, do you sort of think about it monetarily and be like, okay, I think I might be able to get somebody else who is at least Troy's equal or at least close to Troy's equal for significant less dollars than Troy, why do I not just make that move, be fiscally responsible, save the company money, and maybe I even get the benefit of having a new booth and I can promote whoever you bring in as like, here's this new cool Monday Night Football booth we have.

10:22What do you think of that thinking, Austin? I agree with it. If I'm Jimmy Pitara, I am thinking about that. You signed up. Let me back up buck and aikman are incredible together they have been for 25 years i love them together they did help stabilize when i football for jimmy pataro okay that that is a entertainment and entertaining booth for for monday night football which has always been the most entertainment leaning window for the nfl that being said you locked up the guy that brings the most entertainment there and that is joe buck joe buck has shown he can do anything he can do dancing with the stars if you wanted to.

10:58He could host Sports Jeopardy if you wanted to. He could host GMA. He could host Jeopardy. The guy is a Swiss Army knife, and he's proven that. I think whoever they do bring into that booth, if Troy were to leave, he would elevate that talent, even if they weren't already an A. If they were B +, or an A-, they'd instantly become an A, being associated with Joe Buck. I do think he's that good. If it were to be a Greg Olson, yeah, maybe you save a few dollars there, but even if it's not Greg Olson, if it's somebody just beneath that quality of a of an analyst i think that could work for espn and pataro all right chad the same thing to you like is there if you again if we're taking this from the espn perspective and they're like we can get the same kind of booth but you know we can save 15 10 12 million dollars which i guess in theory would go would go elsewhere um what do you think of that yeah i i i understand the the business uh possibility of that for sure and you know the espn pr will tell you they're always you have to look out for the financial aspects of things right that's always a factor but um the stability that this booth has brought them i mean i i know that one of eikman's frustrations i think you probably do too richard is that he feels like he and Joe are a huge reason they got this Super Bowl, that Joe Tessitore, Booger, Jason Witten, those guys, that wouldn't have happened if they were still the Monday Night Football booth.

12:32They've brought, it's funny to say, but they've almost brought a bigger picture to ESPN than what they had before in terms of their prominence with NFL fans because of their presence as being together for 25 years as one of the great broadcast teams in the NFL. And Troy's totally right in that frustration. But if you're looking at it from the financial side, for sure, and from what ESPN's motivations are, you get why they might look for a little bit of a cheaper contract there. I want to ask you, though, do you think there's any chance that McAfee ends up in this spot? And it's another place where they spread out his 60 million.

13:19No, I think there is zero chance of that. And John, if you want to weigh in after me, because I want to get to you at this. No, I know there's been some reports, maybe, or speculation, speculations. Probably there's no I'll get myself burned by saying there's no chance, but I'll roll the dice and say there's zero chance of this happening. And you can call that informed analysis from me. And there's a number of reasons why. One, Pat McAfee has his own brand, including someone who is going to be doing his own Super Bowl broadcast with the people he wants to do that broadcast with. His own thing, yeah.

13:56His own thing, right? Where he essentially has creative control over his product. So that's part one. Part two, logically, it doesn't necessarily make sense for McAfee to continue to put himself on the road when he's already on the road for college game day every Saturday. If you add Monday Night Football, he's then going to another broadcast. Just think about it. Logistically and logically, it doesn't work for Monday Night Football because you need your analyst in that city to do all the prep and all that stuff prior to the game. So logically, it doesn't work. Then lastly, this. You may think Potaro, Burke Maddox, etc.

14:39make bad decisions. They're not dumb people. I can assure you of that. Pat McAfee style on Monday Night Football would absolutely clog the broadcast. Do we agree? And I'm not a McAfee hater. I think he's a very talented guy. It would be too much in a game broadcast to do that for what's your main broadcast when you're trying to attract 20 million people. So no, there's no doubt that it's McAfee's time at ESPN. He is far and away their most important product on air talent, much more than Stephen A. Smith now, I think unquestionably. But no, that move is not going to happen. And it just doesn't logically make any sense.

15:16John Lewis. Now here is something, I have not heard anything on this, but here is something, if you wanted to play the Disney corporate game, that I could see them doing. What if they threw a boatload of money to Travis Kelsey, because they want to be in the Travis and Taylor business? This is Disney, not just ESPN. They put Travis on Monday Night Football, perhaps with somebody else, whether it be his brother or analyst X, and you try to play the morphing celebrity and sports into your Monday night football booth because you have this incredibly famous player who's got an incredibly popular podcast and is married to the most famous woman in America.

15:58I can't see that working just because, one, you're asking a novice to come in and be really good at TV at a level that can sustain a national A broadcast. Yeah, it worked out with a Romo at first. Sure didn't work out with Jason Witten, though. And I don't think ESPN would want to do that. I do want to go back to something that Chad said, though, because, you know, the idea that Troy and Joe are the reason why ESPN gets the Super Bowl. Well, ESPN got that Super Bowl in 2021. won. At that point, that was Levy, Riddick, and Greasy on Monday nights. And there was no thought that Aikman and Buff were going to move from Fox to ESPN.

16:39Now, yeah, obviously, I think it would have been understood that at that point, ESPN was obviously going to improve that Monday night booth. But they did get it before Joe and Troy. I don't think you can necessarily credit them for it. I remember the things that Troy said on your podcast, Richard, that were so interesting when he noted that ESPN now had that 10 percent stake from the NFL. He definitely seems to see some level of responsibility for some of that relationship being patched up. But he and he and Buck arriving at ESPN is a product of that patchwork that had already been done and had already been effective.

17:21I don't necessarily think I'd credit them for it, even though obviously they're a big part of it.

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19:19Austin, let me ask you about one more thing on this, and that's Greg Olson. His contract is up at the end of this year. It is very clear that Fox wants to keep Greg Olson. Brad Zager has been beyond clear about his fondness of Greg Olson. I did essentially a 3 ,000-word love letter, Austin, to Brad Zager and company and SPJ. And within that love letter, it's very clear of how he feels about Greg Olson. And I think Zager deserves credit for rolling the dice on Olson and putting him in that Super Bowl with Burkhart where he was unbelievable. And he is an A analyst. He is an A analyst who's working on a number two team.

20:04So I throw this to you, Austin. If you're For Greg Olson, you absolutely want to be a number one. You see what's going on with Aikman. So you know that there's potentially a spot there. We haven't even gotten to the JJ Watt CBS part. But the more interesting thing is ESPN. If you are Pataro and you see any kind of opening for Greg Olson, how big do you go there? I think you go big. I think if you want to maintain that as the booth that it has become and you want to stay in this, They're going to stay in the Super Bowl rotation no matter what now. I think now that they're in, and especially with the NFL having the 10 % stake in ESPN, I mean, Richard, they could put you with Joe Buck, and I don't think they're going to lose the Super Bowl.

20:46I will do that job, Austin, for$7 million, not even$30 million. But I do think you want to maintain the prestige of Monday Night Football. And you do, if you can, yeah, you go after Greg Olson. But there's a lot of good talent at ESPN, and there's a lot of good talent out there elsewhere. If the money makes sense, yeah. Yeah, go after him. Why not? But going back to what we were just talking about a minute ago, I don't think it's Pat McAfee. I don't think that fits him at all. I don't think that should be. He has kind of shot it down already, but I don't think that should have been a consideration at all.

21:16If you're Fox, though, what you're doing right now is I think you are telling Greg Olson, yeah, like, we love you. We want to keep you here. But based on the contract he has, like, he's not going to get a new contract now because, I mean, it'll just have the same stipulation that if an A opens up, they're going to let him go. So they're in a position where they can kind of let this play out. And you just you keep letting Greg Olson know how you feel about him, that you like having him around. And if it works out that he stays, and this is kind of what Zager has alluded to, if it works out that he stays at Fox, just know that you are welcome here and we love you.

21:51And we would love to see you stay here for as long as you want. Yeah. I mean, the problem for Fox is that you ultimately can't pay Olson what what you pay a number one. Right. It's just like that's just not how the finance is out of their hands with that out clause for an A for. an eight final spot, it is almost out of their hands at this point. And they'll just, they're just going to have to, you know, see how the cards come out. Chad, let me go to you and John, if you want to weigh in after Chad, you can, because the one element we haven't got to on this, and then we will, we will move off this eventually, I promise.

22:17But the one, the one place we haven't mentioned yet is CBS, right? So JJ Watt now it's clear, clear their number one, but work the entire season with Nance. I do think that that is not finalized in terms of JJ Watt is their number one long-term. I think that is to be decided. However, David Burson and the rest of the CBS executives or it's not even CBS now, the Skydance executives feel about their performance. But if they think that they can improve on that, you know, and J.J. Watt is a number two would be unbelievable. Right. And I think Ross Tucker's done a great job as well. So they even have a guy who's who sort of moved up.

22:57But I bring this all up because you do wonder if CBS becomes a little bit of a player in this and thinks to themselves, all right, we see Greg Olson out there in the marketplace. I don't know. Or we see Travis Kelsey out there in the marketplace. Do we try to go bigger with our A booth? yeah i mean uh you have to figure david burson at cbs uh and and uh their executives there have probably checked in with greg olson's agent just to uh see what he's looking for i think technically chad i don't believe you're allowed to but you know that could be yeah who knows yeah you're not allowed to get get get kawaii get uncle dennis from kawaii leonard to to check in that stops nothing.

23:43That does not stop it from happening. It just doesn't get to us. They're going to have a sense for what Olsen wants to do as will ESPN if that's who they're actually targeting. But I feel like they probably do need to try to go a little bit bigger. I like J.J. Watt but I feel like the CBS analyst lineup is kind of out of alignment where guys might be a spot higher than maybe they should be. I thought Charles Davis, I've mentioned in some previous podcasts, was the ideal number two there. Now Tucker's in that role. I'm not sure he's a number two, although Ian Eagle elevates everybody's width. I kind of feel now after watching Watt a few times this year and having seen him do a couple of Patriots games here in New England last year, that they might need to find a little bit more star power alongside Nance in that number one spot and then kind of get guys maybe back into um again the alignment where they belong john let me go to you i'll throw one more out here and we'll talk about prime video um i know andrew marchand reported that um they've i i have to read reread marchand's piece i i they i don't know if there's like a formal contract that has been signed on an extension but they whatever the clear thing is is like herb street can get extended with some outs that like obviously they have the ability to, if they see somebody who's available, who they love, you know, they always just pay Herbstreed off to, to, to not work, et cetera.

25:18But when I think about prime video and I think about like the potential people who are out there, man, if I were those guys, I would try to bring in Ian Eagle and Greg Olson and just go so big. No, you know, money's not an issue for them. And just basically put your stamp down and be like, we got, we got the best booth in the NFL. And you can catch that on Prime Video every Thursday. I'm making the presumption that this will be Al Michaels last year. I'm a big Al Michaels guy. I hope he works forever. But I do think there's a very, very strong possibility that this is it. But how do you feel about my little fantasy baseball idea, John, where you try to convince Ian Eagle to come to you full-time?

25:58He's already doing Amazon NBA. And then you go really throw it down and try to get holes. Well, you can't get him full-time because he's going to want to keep that NCAA tournament. That is the hook. That's the only issue. You're correct. I do think, I mean, he's already at prime on the NBA. I don't think it would take a lot. He might probably have to drop his CBS NFL duties to do it, but he's the number two guy there. So you're getting a playoff game every few years. With prime, you're getting a playoff game every year. You're getting a primetime game, standalone window. Everybody who's watching the NFL is watching that window.

26:30So I think there's a lot of value to that. And if you get Eagle and Olsen, they'll win all the Emmys. Now here's the question. Are you here to win all the Emmys, which is kind of what we're interested in as people who talk about sports media, or are you interested in meeting the general audience where they are? The general audience doesn't have an appreciation in that same way for what makes an Ian Eagle Greg Olson booth special. Are things that people who are aficionados and sports media would appreciate. Not so much things that the viewer who just cares about the game and doesn't know Ian Eagle from Noah Eagle from Sam the Eagle, right?

27:14They don't necessarily care that much about it. What about the NFL, John? As we just earlier stated, the Buck and Aikman pairing, I think the NFL saw that and were like, we're going to give you better games. Do you think Olsen Eagle convinces NFL broadcasting department? because Curb Street ultimately at the end of the day is still a college guy, I think, in many people's eyes. Olsen's an NFL guy. Yeah, but, I mean, the fact is it's not like Prime isn't already getting good games. Their schedule is improved every year. Very much. You know, they were just talking about it yesterday on the Dan Patrick Show when Al Michaels was on it, talking about the improvement of the schedule and the fact that the NFL needs streaming to work.

27:53You know, I don't think the NFL needs to be incentivized to give better games to Prime because they need to make sure that the streaming component is everything it can be. That's the future, right? No matter how many letters to the FCC come from Fox, streaming is still the future of this business. And the fact is, for the NFL, having a situation where you have not the best games on streaming, you don't want to be crazy, but a good, solid schedule on streaming services, that's something, no matter who's calling the game, that's going to be something they want to do. All right, Austin, I'm going to go to you.

28:29We're going to move on. We'll be talking about this, obviously, in the next five months. So I feel like we put 25 minutes in. We'll certainly do this, I'm sure, over the next many, many weeks. But also, I want to ask you about the NFL viewership numbers. After being below last year, I believe they're finally in positive territory. Now, games are averaging, as we talk here, 18.8 million viewers. So that's a little bit up. And some of the numbers for Prime Video, CBS and ESPN are really, really extraordinary where they are sitting at their best viewership numbers for their respective packages, like in the history of those packages after week five.

29:09What do you make? This will be for you and John. What do you make big picture, Austin, of the NFL viewership right now? I think it's impressive that given that they were down around 13 percent, something like that coming out of week one, that they were able to dig themselves out of a hole so quickly. I mean, this was coming over the last couple of weeks that they were going to be back in positive territory pretty soon. In past seasons where we've seen that happen, where there was a big hole coming out of like week one or two, sometimes, I mean, it was a couple of years back, they were down something like 20 some odd percent.

29:39And they spent the whole season just trying to get back to like down 2%. And they thought that that was a win. To see them back so quickly, the league, in positive territory, it speaks to the strength of that league, the the parody about how there's a lot of people that people want to see you know regardless you put any team on there and people want to watch nfl football but uh they're only up one percent i mean this could easily flip they have a bad week maybe they go back back down a little bit but to see them hovering above where they right where they were last year which was a big deal because that was the first year of big data and they were comparing it to like panel only the year before to see them continuing and i know there were some changes this year as well but not as substantive when we heard the complaints from the NFL and we heard the complaints from other media departments that, oh, this is going to negatively impact football.

30:30Well, here we are. Week after week five, you're up 1%. So maybe those complaints weren't as valid. What about you, John? What stands out in terms of the recent NFL viewership numbers? Well, I think what Austin said is correct. It's amazing how quickly they dug out of that hole. You know, whenever you have a schedule that's backloaded, and it wasn't really backloaded this year. But when they put that double, double header in, in week one, they had to know they were going to take a hit. Whenever you have a schedule that's backloaded, that's rough because the perception sets in. People who write about the ratings, even if you write about the ratings, honestly, which is what we all on this podcast try to do, but people can make real hay out of, oh, you're down.

31:11Remember when the NBA playoff started and the opening weekend was down like 2 %? Everybody jumped on that as if it was evidence. Oh my God, decline, decline. And then right away you have all these games on nbc it recovers so it's the perception can set in quickly with a backloaded schedule or a schedule you take a hit on the first few games so i think it was good for the league to get back into uh positive territory as fast as it did i do think that as far as the viewership goes i know you pointed out all those multi-year highs i kind of am a little somewhat skeptical of multi-year highs in this era of measurement I don't necessarily think this is the most watched season CBS has ever had in the Nielsen PeopleMeter era.

31:54But, you know, certainly these and I would say this, and I'm one of the only people who points out household ratings at all. The household rating is the one measurement that is the same now or almost the same now as it was 20 years ago, 30 years ago. The household ratings tell a very different story across the industry than the viewership does. like the household ratings you know you remember the days when the nfl was getting like a 15 rating every week for that 425 window well they're getting like 12s and 11s now right so you know there's the viewership changes kind of have masked erosion across all of the sports industry that i think has maybe gone under the radar but certainly those viewership figures are impressive And if you're the NFL, who knows if you can get to a point where you're up two, three, four, five percent.

32:47Do you have that Chiefs-Bills game on Thanksgiving night? Six out to me is something that has some really high potential down the line. And on the erosion, it's not just sports. There's also been erosion of all entertainment TV, just the way that media has become fractured and things like that. But sports continues to take up a bigger and the NFL is part of that pie is so incredibly huge. If you look at the top 100 telecast, good luck having fewer than 90 of NFL games picking up that list in a given year. Chad, we'll switch to baseball. As we tape this, the Brewers are in the World Series. Incredible.

33:24Sweeping the Dodgers. Even if you thought they were going to beat the Dodgers, I don't know anybody who would have picked that in a sweep. Kind of interesting, too, given so much attention on baseball labor that the Godzilla, the monster, was overtaken by the small market club. So that'll be really, really interesting when the owners start to push that salary cap talk for sure. But what I'm curious about is we're going to see the Brewers either versus the Rays or the Brewers versus the Guardians. Brewers-Guardians would be really fascinating because you'd have a real historical element there. Cleveland has not won a World Series since 1948, and the Brewers have never won a World Series.

34:04So you have these two teams with some interesting stories. You know, the Rays, obviously, they're interesting in their own way, but, like, historically, the Rays are just not a draw. No disrespect. I mean, it's a great organization. They beat my Blue Jays here, but they're just, they are what they are in terms of national interest. So, Chad, what do you think? Because, like, conventional wisdom would say, you know, a Brewers-Guardians World Series is as, yeah, it's a fun story. It's like the Bob Uecker World Series, but, man, Man, that is not going to – people in Boston and California are not going to care.

34:38What do you think? What's your first guess on either of these two series in terms of national appeal? Oh, boy. I think the Guardians probably have quite a bit more than the Rays who just – they don't resonate at all, whereas at least for the Guardians, you've got that history where they lost in 2016 to the Cubs. They were trying to win their first World Series in, what, 68 years at that point, haven't done one. So there's good narratives with them. And they also have a little bit of some star caliber players, right? Jose Ramirez has been a great player for a long, long time. And he's certainly worthy of this stage, overdue for it, not having been there in 10 years.

35:23but I'm curious whether the Brewers have captured people's attention nationally. They're a fantastic team this year, 103 games, but it feels like they're going to level up a little bit after wiping out the Dodgers and people are starting to realize who Jake Bowers is, Cooper Pratt, David Hamilton was the hero in game four, and whether they capture the interest of baseball fans that are rude for other teams or just kind of casual watchers of the postseason, I think there's a chance that that happens. But, of course, it's not Yankees or Dodgers or Red Sox or something of that magnitude in the World Series.

36:07But I think the Brewers have a chance of gaining some national prominence here that they didn't have coming into the playoffs. And there's a better chance of the Guardians doing that than there is of the Rays, for sure, on the other end of it. I agree with that. Austin, I'll go to you. Obviously, Fox and anybody who's into our world, what you do is you root for series length. Because if it does get to a Game 7, casuals are going to tune in, even if it's not big-time teams. I do feel like if this series does catch fire, it's going to be because of the Brewers. No disrespect to the Guardians or the Rays.

36:43But I feel like they have that pitcher who throws 103 miles an hour. They're kind of a fun team. Stadium is cool. So if people are going to latch on, that's the team they're going to latch on to. But again, I'll watch it. I like baseball. It's interesting. But I don't know. Let's put it this way. If we headed to some pretty ugly viewership numbers for the series, it wouldn't surprise me. Let's put it that way. I'm not predicting it, but it wouldn't surprise me. How do you see it? I agree. I think you are likely looking at, well, A, Fox has to have this go six or seven games. Has to, or it's going to be a disaster in numbers in particular.

37:27You're looking at, yeah, you want to stay above what like Diamondbacks, Rangers did. It was a World Series under 10 million viewers. With big data now and all the changes that they made, you better stay above 10 million viewers for this. Or, you know, that's a problem. or those are going to be just terrible looking numbers, especially when you've had Dodgers the last two seasons approaching 15 million viewers. Yeah, you had the benefit of the Yankees with a five-game series a couple years ago. You had the benefit of going to seven games last year, but Foxes, I don't know what they have to sacrifice to the baseball gods to get this to six or seven, but that's what they're going to have to do.

38:04Shopping around for a new furnace before the cold sets in? Four Seasons will beat any competitor's quote by up to$1 ,000. Guaranteed. Honest, upfront pricing that you can trust from a team with over 35 ,000 five-star reviews. For all your heating, plumbing, and electrical needs, you know who to call. For all the right reasons, call 866-FOURSEASONS. Details at fourseasonsheatingcooling.com. John, will you be the voice of small market baseball? Will you be the one who says, nah, I think it's going to be big? If this series goes six or seven games, it's going to do a lot better than people expect.

38:44Because there are narratives there. Obviously, the Brewers, you know, I think have shown people. I mean, first of all, the National League Championship Series, at least the first two games, was shockingly strong. Yeah. I mean, you had the NFL lead in for game one. So you say, well, NFL lead in. Well, they had an NFL lead in for Mets Dodgers two years ago, and it was eight million. They had an NFL lead-in for Dodgers-Brewers now. It was 10. Now, of course, between 2024 and now, all the Nielsen changes have gone into place. But when you're talking about New York, the Mets against the Dodgers in 2024, that is as good as it gets, right?

39:21I would not expect even with Nielsen methodological changes for the Brewers to be able to outdraw the Mets two years ago. So you never know. There's certainly some energy there. I assume the Dodgers were a big part of it, But the Dodgers played the Brewers last year, and those numbers were terrible. Like each game was under five million except for game two, even the Shohei game where he had one of the greatest performances ever. So there's there's something in the water with this series that maybe is in the water with these Brewers. But here's the thing. It can't be a sweep. It can't be Brewers for, you know, Guardians nothing.

39:56It's going to have to go six or seven. And I do think that if it does go six or seven, it's going to be a lot more respectable. It's not going to be Yankees-Dodgers. It's not going to get there. But if I'm Major League Baseball, I'd rather average$13 or$14 million for Brewers-Guardians than$15 million for Yankees-Dodgers. Interesting. Okay. $13 million would be a win. That would be a serious win if any of these guys work themselves out. We're going to finish up with this. And, Austin, you're giving your alma mater. You're the closest to a college football power of all of us. so the college football playoff according to ESPN's Pete Thamel is nearing a deal to expand the field to 24 teams in 2027 I actually look at that sentence and just shake my head unbelievable but the deal is expected to come together in the near future they've been negotiating a deal for a while ESPN will continue to be the broadcast partner of this this would eliminate the power four conference championship games potentially starting the season a week earlier final details haven't been set up and you know if you're a college football wonk uh 19 at large bids power four champions highest ranked group six that you know there's a million great college football podcast much better than this one to discuss that what we're interested in is the media aspect of this particular rights aspect of this that if espn gets this entire package do they actually show everything on ESPN or did they sub license this stuff out and try to make money on the back end so Austin two things one very broad yeah I want your this is I want this is for everybody I want your broad thoughts on just going to 24 a 2014 playoff and like what you think of that in a media construct and then the second part I want you guys to give me your thoughts on is just how these where where viewers may be able to see these games you know I was kind of surprised yesterday that there was all this surprise that this was, oh my God, it's going to 24.

41:55Anybody who didn't think this was happening really hasn't, if you weren't paying attention, this was going to go to 24. And once you got the SEC even thinking about it, it was going to happen. Speaking about this from a fan perspective, nobody was asking for 24, but I get it. I work in the business of sports. This was going to happen. If ESPN gets all of the rights, if they retain all of the rights to an expanded CFP, I think they've shown that they have no problem and would want to sub-license those early round games. It depends on who do they want to come to the party. They didn't have any problem with TNT coming in because they knew where WBD sat at the time and they weren't really a threat.

42:32Do you do the same with David Ellison and CBS? Like, are you willing to do that again? Are you willing to keep up that sub-license and give that to those cable networks? Or do you maybe look at somebody like an Amazon Prime, somebody who has likely a big interest in college football as these rights come up over the next few years, whether it's Big Ten or other conferences, they probably want to take a stab at college football. We've seen them get interested in college basketball, at least that little package of Duke games. But if anything, they've shown to be the streamer that wants sports more than anybody else.

43:08This is a marquee property that they can wrap their arms around. And I think it would be interesting to watch Amazon get involved with college football for sure. Hmm. Okay. What about you, Chad? How do you see all of this? Yeah. When's the season ending with this 2014 tournament anyway? I mean, Austin, I see you on college. It'll go on for six months. But roughly, it would still roughly, I mean, we'd still probably roughly get the championship game, right? Around the same time? Around the same time because you're starting in week zero. You're getting rid of the conference championship week. And that was the big holdup, especially around the SEC, was getting them compensated for what they were making around the SEC championship.

43:52That was a$100 million venture you had to get past. The other leagues are just not at that level, especially ACC and Big 12. And that wasn't as big a hurdle. Chad, I mean, you know, one thing, like, I didn't ask you this, Austin. Chad, if you want to weigh in on it, you can weigh in on it, whatever you want. But one thing also, too, is just kicking around to me is I'm curious if you guys think that, like, this will devalue regular season games in terms of interest and viewership. But anyway, Chad, go. Yeah, I mean, devaluing regular season games, I think we're already to that point. But I don't know, 16 is ideal to me.

44:2624, it's going to be interesting to see which of the top 25 teams doesn't make it theoretically and whether we're arguing about who number 24 should be like we do for when the tournament began. But yeah, I'm curious to see what ESPN does with this and whether it holds all the inventory or not. I think you're right about the prime aspect, Austin. John, I'm always like, I want to get back to what I was sort of saying about the regular season of college football if they go to this. The NFL has expanded its playoffs and regular season still does really well. Obviously, baseball expanded its playoffs and then the NHL expanded its playoffs.

45:07The NBA expanded its playoffs. You can make the argument that sometimes that's hurt the NBA regular season. I, I, college football still is so culturally ingrained to me that I can't see like the Ohio state Michigan games or like, um, you know, I'm trying to the LSU, Alabama, you know, whatever these are like all time rivalries. I still think those would draw, but I have to think if we do have a 2014 playoff, some non-conference game early in the year, just, I don't know if maybe it's going to feel a little less big because if you lose that game, you're still, you know, If a Texas loses a game early, you're still probably going to make the playoffs if you ran out the rest of it.

45:46Am I on to something here, or will there be no correlation? You might be, but college football is all about the traditions, right? You don't really need to have any playoffs at all, and the games would still matter. I'd go back to the Big Ten championship game last year had zero stakes at all, zero, and it was the most watched conference title game on record, with all the caveats regarding yields and changes, of course, but it was still number one versus number two. It still mattered to people that Indiana won the Big Ten. So there's always going to be these other things that people are playing for.

46:17You know, as far as expansion goes, one, I want to address one of the things that Austin said he brought up Prime Video. Isn't Prime Video still a threat, though, to ESPN? Because to me, the ideal partner for a sub-license, if they have the money, would be CW. Because then you already have that in the ESPN app. You can sub-license it, and you're still getting the games in your app. and if not CW, you know, there's Versant if they're big enough and want to spend the money. Because, I mean, the main thing, the point you made Austin is dead on. I felt this way from the beginning. TNT has those games because they're not a threat to ESPN in college football.

46:54That's why TNT has those games. They're a threat now because they're part of Skydance, but when that deal was done, they weren't one. So I would be interested to see if maybe a Nexstar or a Versant gets involved on that. But as far as expansion goes, people don't want to hear it. But the more, the merrier. The more games you have, more inventory. It is going to impact the quality of play. It is going to impact the stakes. But college football is strong enough to survive that. And look, as far as I'm concerned, add as many teams as you possibly need to to get Florida State in there somehow. You might have to expand to maybe like 96 to get that done.

47:32But hey, why not the more the merrier and you get more of those big name teams in there danny cannell is not going to boycott this podcast john thank you um austin like i gotta be honest again maybe they're not targeting me as the audience you know someone who grew up on uh in new york elitist new yorker um but um like the the idea of like the number 13 seed playing the number 12 seed in early... That has no appeal to me as a sportsman. Later on, Will, but I don't know. I mean, maybe it does if there's a big upset. You're a big college football guy. Would you be... I don't even want to guess who the teams would be, but would you be interested in that kind of matchup?

48:20Well, I want to watch Wisconsin-Florida in the 13th because some of the fifth teams that came out of there. Those are still good games, Richard. Those are good games those are interesting games to watch and like john alluded to there's a lot of pomp and pageantry and history and you know all these teams haven't played since the 1842 sugar bowl um i love hearing those sorts of things they haven't played the rose bowl since the eisenhower administration whatever it is whatever have you i think they still retain their importance a lot of these games and especially those early round games what i don't want to see is a lot of these people don't want to see a lot of these group of six schools and i'm sorry like you don't want to see too many james madisons making it to the college football playoff we want to see these teams that have a little bit of a pedigree they're a little bit more of a blue blood in the sport they have the history and they're the ones that are pumping a lot of money into their rosters and that's why we're doing this okay this nil just open this all up and if you're spending 25 to 50 million dollars on your roster which is what the top whatever 50 schools or so are spending these days.

49:24You want access. And you talked about the access that pro leagues have, where it's anywhere between 45 and 55 % of the teams are making the playoffs. It's in the low teens for college football. And you had to increase it a little bit if you're going to be pumping all that money into the rosters. All right. Fair enough. I do love that jump around tradition in Wisconsin. That is cool. I would watch that. By the way, all these schools, great, great pageantry. Can we all agree on one thing? No matter what happens, no matter what the number of the playoffs are, no matter how much inventory they add, college football game broadcasters will continue to kiss the asses of coaches left and right.

50:00We all agree on this? Yeah, it's like they kiss the ass of the owners in the NFL. Thank you, Chad. I had total silence there. I thought I was losing the room, but Chad, thank you. I swore my eyes a little bit, but yeah, I guess a little, yeah. I agree. It's a total tangent. Go ahead. I was going to say not Mike Norvell. Okay. Right. Not everybody. Yeah. It's just a pet peeve of mine that players can be criticized in college football. But man, it's like the Bermuda Triangle. Try to find a college game broadcaster criticizing the coaches. Anyway, anything else you guys want to bring up before we get out of here?

50:39I have a really small one. Why not? Just an observation I made watching NBA preseason. Knicks had Frank Isola. Excuse me. Knicks had Alan Hahn as their analyst. Knicks had Frank Isola as their analyst. And I kind of wonder if maybe that might be a trend we start to see more of is people who did not play, people who were writers coming in. I mean, there's a history of it, a long history of it. I mean, you know, you can go back to like Mendy Rudolph on the NBA when CBS had the ex-ref. It doesn't necessarily have to be a former player or a former coach. I mean, there's a lot of other folks out there who probably cost a lot less money, too.

51:17I just actually saw Tom Habistraw join NBC Sports Philadelphia as a six or sideline reporter. So, you know, you do obviously do have people in that position. But that's an interesting observation. I mean, I, you know, someone like Isola and Alan Hahn, who covered the NBA for many, many years as like traditional print reporters, would be excellent in those roles. And I saw obviously host SiriusXM NBA stuff in addition to his Lannister gold that he gets doing PTI. So yeah, that makes sense to me, John. I think there are certain positions where the public is cool if it's not a former player or coach.

51:57So I will bring these, whether it's this group or another group, We will, for the next roundtable, definitely get into the WNBA viewership of the finals. It is the dream. And the Valkyries, two great stories. Obviously, the dream, pretty incredible story with Angel Reese coming to that team and then making the finals. And the Valkyries, a second-year expansion team in the finals with easily the greatest home court that exists in the WNBA. So we will get into that. I want to see some of the viewership first. and also as John Lewis knows full well, the games are between NBC and USA Network. So it's going to be real interesting dichotomy when some of the games are on over the air and then some of the games are on traditional cable.

52:44So for the people who are interested in that, I know I have people who listen to this podcast who are. Trust me, we will get into WNBA viewership stuff in detail for sure. All right. I want to thank Chad Finn of the Boston Globe, Austin Carp of SBJ and John Lewis of Sports Media Watch. Check out all of their work on their respective publications. Austin, of course, hosts the Sports Media Podcast at SBJ. Just had Ed Desser and John Kozner on, who were on this podcast a couple weeks ago. John Lewis, of course, has the Sports Media Watch Podcast. John, who's the latest guest before we get out of here?

53:18I'm looking forward to this one. We taped it already this week. Evan Washburn of CBS gave us a lot of really great in-depth answers. I know he's a little bit on the lower profile because he's not on one of those number one teams, but we had a really good substantive discussion that if you really are interested in the mechanics of sports broadcasting, I think you'll enjoy a lot. Yeah, Evan Washburn does a good job. You should have just baited and switched him and said, I just want to talk about Romo, Evan, not about your career. Yeah. And then Evan's like, John, the phone's breaking up. I'm sorry.

53:51My Wi-Fi connection isn't good. All right, so check out John, Austin, and Chad's work. Stay here, fellas. we're closing up shop here. If you like these kind of conversations, please head to the archives. I just had Oliver Wilson on, who is a Brit who is doing Westwood One audio. He's doing the NFL games for Westwood One. He just worked with Mike Mayock last week, and he's gotten great reviews. He's a really good NFL broadcaster. And, you know, not one you would expect. You don't often expect the Brits to be good NFL broadcasters, but this dude is. Had John Lewis and his group from Sports Media Watch, Armand Brody and Derek Futterman before that.

54:25We talked about Stephen A. Smith's comments and then apology on Lane Johnson. Peter King was on this. I think this is the 87th podcast he's done, but Peter King was on this podcast on October 8th. Did the director of the Dennis Miller doc, which was great. Jeff Cameron of NFL Films on September 28th. And, of course, the very much mentioned at this point, the September 20th interview with Troy Aikman. You could see, you could perhaps see where it all started. It all started. Troublemaker, Deitch. Troublemaker. You're a troublemaker. It all started there. um all right want to thank james jackson for all his hard work obviously thank you to austin john and shad for coming on most of all thank you for listening we will see you soon on the sports media podcast

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