What happens if ESPN does not re-sign Troy Aikman? Plus, Paramount/Skydance and Warner Bros. Discovey's combined sports inventory

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2:18welcome to the sports media podcast i'm your host richard deitch my producer is james jackson this is our usual saturday roundtable and we have the regulars back john lewis founder and editor of sports media watch armand brody from sports media watch derrick vutterman from sports media watch as always check out that excellent site as well as their excellent podcast they've been getting some phenomenal guests of late and i am really really pleased that they uh they made some time to come on on what is a very very busy sports media week welcome fellas hey thanks for having us of course all right i mean there's so much john to sort of talk about this week so i'm not even sure where to start uh all right let's start here just because like i think it's always good to start with people uh it's sort of a way to get people in more than sort of thematics so So, John, you, Derek, and Armand have obviously read about everything that's gone on with Joe Buck and Troy Aikman over the last couple weeks.

3:17Andrew Marchand reported that Joe Buck had re-signed with Monday Night Football, so they have their play-by-play announcer set for another six years. Troy Aikman was on this podcast last week. I appreciate Sports Media Watch writing about it, where he said that there's no contract signed from him. he has not heard from, or at least at that time, I should say, he had not heard from ESPN after Buck had signed, and he had never been in a position, I think since his Cowboys days, of going into the final year of a contract not having signed an extension, which, again, I thought was just pretty interesting given, I think, generally speaking, those of us who cover this and follow it really closely, I think Buck and Aikman are at the point now where most people would say they're a consensus number one in terms of all the teams.

4:04So that's, you know, it's interesting to me just that ESPN hasn't locked what I think most NFL viewers would say is the number one team. So all that said, John, a lot of things at play here, because if Aikman does not resign with ESPN, then we have, you know what I'm saying? We have the whole silly season, basically, like we had a couple years ago when there's going to be a lot of jockeying for position. So 10 ,000-foot view, how do you see this? Well, I think obviously there's some strategy going on on both sides, right? Troy Aikman knows how to, you know, deftly advocate for his interests through the media.

4:46He's done it before. He did it in the previous negotiation. He said on your podcast last week that he had not gone to the end of his contract since the Cowboys, but he went to the end of his contract with Fox four years ago. That's why he's at ESPN in the first place. So, you know, he knows how to negotiate to the media. You know, the only person better at it in this industry is Charles Barkley, probably. And the fact is that he made a few statements and threw a few brushback pitches of his own. But I think he was responding to a bit of a brushback pitch by ESPN. locking up Joe Buck because obviously when Buck left Fox, he only had one year left on his contract.

5:25It was easy, relatively speaking, to get out of. It's going to be impossible for Joe Buck to get out of this contract unless someone wants to trade ESPN back Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, right? Because that was the circumstance of Al. Al had signed an eight-year deal to do Monday Night Football for the length of ESPN's contract. And so in order to get out of a contract like that, you can't just sell someone a single Big Ten football game like Fox Scott for Joe Buck. So ESPN locking up Joe Buck the way that they did, I think was their way of saying, okay, you're not, you know, Buck isn't going to be a part of this.

6:02We have him. So if you're going to leave us, you're going to leave him. I think Troy Aikman probably is willing to do that because when he left Fox, he did leave Joe Buck. And so he's willing to break up that relationship and that friendship and if it comes to that. But certainly, I think we all know, and he told you himself, his preference is to continue working with him. So it gives ESPN a little leverage. Yeah, let me go to you, Derek. So just one thing for like the for full transparency, like I asked Troy that question. He didn't know what questions were coming. So it's not like he went into that interview like back channeling me.

6:37Hey, can you ask about this? But you're not wrong, John, in terms of how definitely he answers the questions. But I just don't want anybody to think that he was coming on to answer this stuff because I'm the person who brought it up. Derek, let me go to you. One of the things that becomes really interesting about this scenario, of course, is that if Aikman does not end up with ESPN, that creates a massive opening on Monday Night Football. Why that's particularly interesting is Kirk Herbstreet's contract is up as well for Thursday Night Football. You could have the potential for two A chairs being open if Aikman – I don't think it's going to be Aikman – if ESPN makes the decision whether it's a money-based decision or something else.

7:25We all know that Greg Olson has been sitting out there, someone who is a number one analyst working on a number two broadcast right now. So for these jobs, Derek, that generally speaking are very stable and people want to hold on to them and we don't see a ton of movement outside of that crazy movement festival we had a couple of years ago, it really is interesting. And then the last thing I would just add is this to me is particularly interesting because this is ESPN Super Bowl year. And you would think that they would want stability in a Super Bowl. You usually think that we want to lock the contract up prior to the Super Bowl, but Andrew Marchand posited this as well.

8:05They actually may think differently and be like, we're not going to talk about this until after the Super Bowl, which I think is risky. But more than that, it's an interesting strategy if that's how they're doing it, Derek. It's like a player entering their walk year in a contract in sports, and maybe it encourages some different kind of performance. But I don't think motivation is the issue for Troy Aikman. He's one of the top analysts in the game, often considered by many to be the number one guy. My whole thing here is that, you know, if Troy Aikman does leave ESPN, first of all, would he continue in broadcasting?

8:37Because there would be openings elsewhere. And I'm sure other networks would be eager to have the conversation, just make assumption there. But also, you know, Kirk Herbstreit is already the number one guy on the college crew. So if ESPN wanted to, I don't know, modify his deal to have him do Monday nights as well, and I would imagine he would do both because he's already been doing both with the two-day gap. It would be the same thing, just reversed. You'd have college first instead of the NFL. There's obviously a fit there. You talked about Greg Olson. Olson, I believe he's been vocal about wanting a number one opportunity down the road.

9:09This would make a ton of sense. I know he's with Fox through this year. At least that's what's been reported. but there are many possibilities here. But in my opinion, after all of the years with instability in the Monday Night Booth and a lot of criticism and the relationship with the NFL, there were reports that there was an issue there. I would be shocked if ESPN didn't find a way to get it done because you have two of the top commentators in the game together. They've been doing it for more than two decades. They've called Super Bowls. They've got this year's game. I think we'll see Buck and Aikman for years to come.

9:43That would be my guess. But as we know with this industry, you never know. We had the great summer of transactions in 2022 with the announcers. So anything's possible. But my prediction would be Buck and Aikman are going to be together at ESPN. Arman, let me ask you a question that sort of relates to this, and you can give us your thoughts on this. In your opinion, if you were in Troy Aikman's position and you had any choice, what's the better job? The Monday Night Football Analyst job or the Thursday Night Football Analyst job on Prime Video? understanding that the variables could be money. So I'll just throw you a fun scenario.

10:17Prime Video offers Troy Aikman a shitload more money to do that game than ESPN does Monday Night Football. What do you do if you're Troy? So there's a couple things that you have to consider. Number one, the relationship between Buck and Aikman. These guys are more than just partners who get along well on air. There is a clear and obvious chemistry. And when you get to that level and you've worked with somebody that long, you can finish their sentences. You know when they're taking a breath. You know when they're pausing. You know when it's your turn to talk. And there's a lot of nonverbal communication that happens that allows you to just sort of pick up and run when it's your time to talk.

11:00So that's the first thing to consider. The second thing is how much does being in that Super Bowl rotation matter to Aikman? He's done a host of Super Bowls at this point in his broadcasting career. How much does that matter to him? But I think there's a third thing to keep in mind, and that is the fact that, you know, sometimes you just want a little bit of change. and ESPN has had some change in its producer director chairs. There was the whole controversy about whether or not Joe and Troy liked the producer director team they had a while back. ESPN brought Steve Ackles in and then ESPN last year brought Artie Kempner, who was at Fox.

11:38They bring him over to ESPN to sort of make the relationship with Buck and Aikman a little more cohesive. So that could be something to consider there. but ultimately if if given how long they've worked together and how well how hard it is to get chemistry in the booth we've heard so many times so many booths that don't quite mesh good personalities but they don't mesh together gosh it would be hard for me to imagine Aikman not wanting that to continue but as you said Richard if Amazon throws 25 or 30 million dollars at Troy Aikman a year. And we can't say it won't happen because look at what Tom Brady's making over at Fox.

12:18It certainly does have a way of making you reconsider things. Yeah, I mean, I'd have to sort of really double-check this, but off the top of my head, I don't remember the streamers going that heavy for our sports on our talent, but it only takes one, right? It only has to be one the first time. Again, really, this will be sort of, at least in our world, a pretty fascinating story to watch because one position can really move the dominoes around all this. And we haven't even talked about Tony Romo and J.J. Watt in this equation, right? Because we'll see how J.J. Watt does with Jim Nance. We'll see what CBS thinks with Tony Romo.

13:02So this offseason is going to be really, really fascinating. There will be movement. The question is just how much movement. John, I want to go to you on our second topic. And that's television ratings for the NFL. A friend of the podcast here, Austin Karp, put out, and I'm sure you did as well, John, an NFL TV ratings item in Sports Business Journal. Through week two, the NFL has averaged 19.9 million viewers for its game. That is down 4 % compared to the same point in 2025. but the third best average at this point of the season on record only behind 2025 and 2015. So we're not talking about like a catastrophic story for the NFL, but anytime they're down, like I think people take notice because most of us who have been writing about this for a long time, we only are used to generally speaking, you know, seeing the NFL go in one direction.

14:03So what's your read after these two weeks with the viewership numbers at play? Well, I think a lot of it has to do with week one. Week two was actually the most watched week two on record. Now, all of these numbers come with a lot of factors that most people don't pay any attention to. Week one was down because of the double doubleheader. It was down because Fox and CBS went against each other, cannibalized each other with competing doubleheader windows. And ultimately, I don't necessarily read too much into those numbers being down. Similarly, Week 2 up in at least small part because ESPN got rid of its doubleheader last year.

14:44Last year, they had the doubleheader on ESPN and ABC. This time around, they only had the single game. And obviously, not only did they get a bigger audience for that single game, but they were able to cut that second game out last year that actually had fewer than 10 million viewers for that nightcap window. So those are big factors. Frankly, I don't necessarily think the NFL's numbers are all that notable yet because the schedule has been different to start. I don't take the week one decline all that seriously. I don't take the week two high all that seriously. I don't take the, oh, it's the third highest on record all that seriously because of all the Nielsen changes.

15:25frankly, at this point, the numbers are what they are. They're pretty nondescript in my view. Arman, let me go to you. One of the things that I read, I don't remember where I read it from, so my apologies. It might have even been on social media. There was a little bit of future casting where people were like, maybe the NFL is going to have a little bit of a down year because some of these star quarterbacks are hurt right now. Jackson Dart is out for the Giants. you know, I think you just have to logically sort of make the thought that the Giants won't be nearly as good without Jackson Dart. And so that's a big market, obviously.

16:04Caleb Williams banged up a little bit. Jalen Daniels out. So it is early. And we've had a couple of these quarterbacks and some of these young, young quarterbacks with a lot of interest from viewers who are out. So I don't know, Armand, do you make any kind of connection there that if not, that's something to pay attention to in the event that some of these star quarterbacks are not playing a lot of games. No, I definitely think it's something to watch. I know ESPN was probably pretty happy when Patrick Mahomes tried out onto the field in week one for that Monday night football opener. Because frankly, had Mahomes not been in that game, my motivation for watching would have decreased significantly.

16:46And we saw even what happened in the postseason last year. We saw how much of a sting not having Bo Nix there to finish things out for Denver. And of course, they lost the game ultimately in the AFC Championship game. But him not being there just sort of put a bad taste in your mouth. And there was conversation about what that could mean going forward. So we have seen, I think, the danger of the game. And hopefully, hopefully we get Caleb Williams back relatively soon. I know that there was some conversation about how severe that injury was, but the Jackson Dart one hurt quite a bit because the Giants look really strong against the Cowboys on Sunday night football.

17:27You had New York versus Los Angeles on Monday night football there, those two major markets playing. And there was a lot of buzz around the Giants. And in one fell swoop, that buzz has disappeared for the New York Giants. So I do think there's something to be said about the loss of quarterbacks. hopefully, hopefully we get some of these guys back and we're able to sort of stabilize things. I also think that there is a conversation to be had about how these coaches manage the preseason, what that looks like. Is there any change that happens next year, couple of years with how these coaches toss these players out during the preseason?

18:06Because right now, basically what we're getting is really a mod of a glorified preseason. And it's not been all that pretty in some spots. You make a great point about Mahomes. Chiefs, Cowboys, Bills. Those are the power viewership teams the last couple of years. And if the Chiefs are good, that's going to mean some significantly good things for the NFL. Derek, I feel like those two guys really sort of hit that topic. So I want to move to a different topic with you. Oh, go ahead. One more quick. Yeah, please. It's okay. Flex scheduling is going to play a role down here. I mean, obviously there are different parameters, but Sunday, Monday, and Thursday at different points in the year can be flexed.

18:43When you actually look at the Giants' schedule, unfortunately, if you want to call it that for prime video, they can't flex out that Week 10 matchup against the Commanders. So that will not include Jackson Dart, it seems, and it could not include Jaden Daniels as well, though I know he's not hitting injured reserve just yet for his injury. And the Commanders are actually due on primetime television this year four more times, and I'm pretty sure they cannot be flexed out of a single one of those windows. So it may be worth watching there to see the status of Jaden Daniels as it relates to viewership.

19:12But yeah, I mean, there's been a ton of quarterback injuries, and I think Armand put it very well that it feels like an extended preseason right now. People are going to watch the NFL. It's obviously very popular. NBC's had a huge start with its first three games. But, you know, again, these injuries, eventually the on-field product is going to have to improve in these early weeks to see viewership gains long term is what I would imagine. Michael Penix, let's go. Good take, Derek. I'm glad you jumped in there. I shouldn't have shut you down. I was just really just trying to make sure that we have segments.

19:42You got to keep it moving. Yeah, you got to keep moving. Okay. So this I know you've been following and written about, and this is certainly of interest to you. As we're taping this Friday, September 25th, the Paramount Skydance Warner Brothers Discovery deal, like we believe is going through. So the attorney general attorney generals, but Rob Bonta, particular from California, came out this past week, announced what the settlement terms would be. There are many other podcasts who talk about media who could get into whether this is a good settlement for the public. I certainly am skeptical on that, but there are other there are other media entities who will discuss that and and have discussed that very well.

20:24For our purposes, though, if this Indeed Settlement merger, whatever, goes through, Paramount Skydance slash CBS, they have a monster set of sports rights. And that's pretty – that's my word. If you guys don't agree, actually, I'd love to hear that because I saw John's face there being a little skeptical. So I'll definitely throw it to him. Anyway, again, thanks to Austin Karp for throwing this and others. A couple of things that they have just in terms of general. the NFL, the NHL, Big Ten, Big 12, Big East, NASCAR, WNBA, UFC, Champions League. Did I say the Masters? PGA Tour, PGA Championship, Zufa Boxing, NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament.

21:12Okay, I don't have to give the entire rights portfolio, Derek, but at a base level, I think that's a pretty big set of sports rights. and secondly will be real interesting to see who's running this and i assume it'll be david burston at cbs because there's gonna at some point be some decisions like this company has a big debt load right so you that's one of the first things i thought about like okay when this combined company comes like are they gonna keep the turner properties like the nhl and the french open and stuff like that like do they want to become like a superpower like espn anyway really fascinating on the sports end and I wanted to know how you saw it, Derek.

21:52Yeah, as it relates to sports rights, I mean, they're going to be pretty loaded when you consider that they have the National Football League in the fold and college football and college basketball, the tournament they've been working together for a long time on that. I mean, the real thing here is that when this merger is going to close, because obviously the ticking fee, which equates to approximately 650 million a quarter, comes into play very soon. And right now, the court actually that's right now looking at the settlement between the Coalition of State Attorneys General and the WGA with Paramount allowed people to file amicus briefs up until this morning.

22:27And of course, we're recording Friday. So what we'll see here is I would be surprised if this didn't end up going through. It's just that I know it was reported that David Ellison hoped to close the deal within two weeks. And that would presumably have Paramount avoid most of the ticking fees coming into play here. I mean, if this lingers any longer, it's going to start costing Paramount more money to close this merger. And obviously, the company is already going to be pretty loaded by debt,$79 billion debt load in this deal. So we'll see what ends up happening. But from the sports perspective, obviously, I think they're going to have to be some decisions to be made naturally.

23:02But then again, CBS under Ellison has proven to be willing to spend. I look at the UFC deal immediately as an example of that. But the fact is, don't forget, the NFL has what's been reported, the change of control provision that could compel Paramount to get to the table earlier. And I believe that has been reported to be two years after the Skydance merger. So we'll be coming up on that probably just a little while more. So we'll see what happens. but it's certainly a compelling portfolio, but I would imagine decisions would have to be made long-term. We've all been there. You stop listening for a second to jot down a note and suddenly you've missed the most critical part of the conversation?

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24:11Hey, football fans. It's Vaughn Miller, Dallas Cowboys linebacker and host of the Free Range Podcast. Come hang out with me and my guy, TJ Banks, as we give you the best analysis, insights and guest interviews from around the league each and every week. New episodes drop each and every Wednesday. Be sure to follow or subscribe to Free Range wherever you get your podcasts. All right, John, when I mentioned this, you know, again, the people who are listening to this obviously cannot see your face. But I did see you make a little bit of a face when I used the word like monumental or something like that, John.

24:49I'm not saying they have ESPN's rights portfolio. ESPN has the best rights portfolio. But if you look at just in terms of breadth and – how would I say this? The Paramount portfolio does feel like it has something for everybody, from soccer to UFC to hockey. That's pretty disparate in terms of properties. So that's just why I used that word, although I will say I think what Derek just said is spot on. They're not going to be able – at least in my opinion, they're not going to be able to keep all of these. So they're going to have to eventually make decisions. So, John, I want to know how you see it.

25:27And then we'll finish up on this one with Armand. Well, I don't think they have a portfolio that compares to ESPN. I also don't think they have a portfolio that is as good as NBC's. I would put them behind NBC as well. One, if you have three of the big four, you'd rather have the third one be the NBA than the NHL. NBC also has the Olympic Games, and we know the impact that that has every couple of years. And beyond anything else, let's talk about the rights that they're inheriting. Do we feel like TNT Sports right now is a big time player? Because TNT, a lot, remember the Zaslav, we kind of forgot David Zaslav was around there for a little bit, you know, running anything.

26:09But the David Zaslav approach was to acquire bits and pieces of a lot of things. So that list of properties is going to look really long. But when you dig into what those contracts actually are, a lot of them are sub-licensing deals. A lot of them are really kind of the minor deals for a few games here and a few games there. Even some of the CBS contracts are like that. They have 20 WNBA games. That's a lot. None in the playoffs, right? They're not one of the top partners. Obviously, there are some great properties in there. The NFL goes about saying. But something like March Madness, both of them already had.

26:49Now, it'll be good to combine it, but that's not additive. They already had it. So to me, I look around. I don't see anything that, you know, is all that impressive. And then you're immediately having to renegotiate a lot of these deals. National Hockey League needs to be renegotiated. Bettman has signaled excitement about the Paramount merger. So I assume that the NHL will stick around. I don't necessarily think. I mean, has anybody had the thought that TBS was going to keep its baseball package? I don't think anyone's been thinking that. So unless Paramount comes in and negotiates an entirely new baseball deal, I don't necessarily look at that current MLB contract as something to build on.

27:33It would have to be entirely new because I don't think it would even be worth it, merger or no merger, to renew a deal where you get non-exclusive games all season and only half of the playoffs. So I'm not that wowed by it. I don't think it's all that great. And I think that in order to keep what little is already there, it's going to require quite a bit of spending. Interesting. All right. So we now know, Armand, John hates the Mountain West Conference and Professional Bull Riders Association. Also properties there. There. Okay. I think that's, I mean, that's really great insight from John. I'm not sure I agree in total.

28:13I think he's underselling a couple of those properties, but make some great points. Like the NHL is no slam dunk for CBS like that. They're going to have a big decision on that. I think the NHL is great. It's fun to watch, but they have no history with it. You know what I mean? And like, it's going to be same thing with the French open. It's another property where it's like, does this really work for the portfolio and the POV? All the soccer stuff does for sure, right? The college stuff does for sure, obviously, the NFL, etc. But anyway, Armand, we've mentioned a lot of these properties, and it does create, at least if nothing else, potentially just given the oodles of money the Ellisons have, the potential for a really serious bidder going for whatever they want if they decide to want it.

28:59Like the World Cup, for example, if the Ellison crew just makes a decision like, hey, we're interested in the Men's World Cup, they're going to be a legitimate bidder for that, the money they have. How do you see it, Armand? well I lean to John and Derek a lot on this conversation but the thing I think about is the lack of identity TNT sports has had for a while now and it's funny because when they lost the NBA it was almost as if that was like the final blow to sort of the overall identity of TNT sports and I remember thinking to myself I mean we have this conversation regularly the the number of people for whom it is still a surprise when they see the postseason, the MLB postseason pop up on TBS and they realize that TBS has an LCS.

29:48Like it's still it's sort of a surprise to people in terms of the merger and everything that that's going to mean. I mean, as I think, as Derek said, priorities are going to have to be made. What goes, what stays? And then the other thing that I always think about because I worked in it is who goes and who stays You're talking about talent now. Yes. And we saw that with ESPN and NFL Network to a different scenario. But the results were still hard hitting and difficult in many cases. We saw some quality talent as well lose their jobs. And that's not even to talk about the production people that we never hear about who end up losing jobs because they don't have the profile of that talent.

30:30So those things are going to have to be decided as well. You can't keep everything. And I know that this there's a lot of excitement from, you know, Gary Bettman and some other folks, I'm sure, about what this all could mean. But you can't have it all, especially with as expensive as these rights are. You cannot have it all. That's a great point. And the one thing Armand just nailed totally is we are the one thing this merger will do within the television, sports, cable spaces. You are going to see layoffs. You're going to see whenever they make these, whenever this thing goes eventually through, You are going to see unquestionably people laid off from like the CNNs of the world and probably the CBS news of the world.

31:08And I think what Armand said is spot on. They're not going to be able to keep all these properties. And you are going to see people, including some well-known on-air people, just lose their jobs because they're not going to be able to keep everybody. So that's a great point, Armand, and we'll see what happens. Can I jump in here real fast? You can. Hockey season is coming up next week. I think there's a point that has to be made here. in terms of the nhl deals the first round of the stanley cup playoffs is still on regional television i would surely expect that to end in the next cycle i think they do what the nba has done also if tnt is unable to keep the nhl i think if you have paramount in the equation with tnt the nhl would ideally look for cbs to be part of the equation especially in the playoffs because it's not ideal to have the stanley cup final on broadcast television one year and then cable television the next year 100 so with prime video just extending its agreement in canada and taking on some more regional teams here in the united states for in-market streaming district in-market streaming deals uh for the teams that are going to be produced by the league i think the national hockey league probably and this is just my own speculation has to be watching very closely on how prime does this year with an nba conference finals for the first time because you you have to assume that prime is going to be interested in expanding its nhl relationship down the road So perhaps we see Prime become one of the two main partners, assuming ESPN keeps it, and then potentially ESPN gets the whole of the Stanley Cup, and you have a conference final on Prime and ESPN in the United States.

32:38Just a thought, but if TNT is unable to keep the NHL, I think that would probably be the best direction for the league to go. Derek, I'm going to stick with you. College Game Day has gotten a lot of attention lately for many different reasons. Obviously, there was Ted Cruz coming on before the Ohio State. Texas game. He got booed. And there were people certainly online who were like, you essentially just gave a 10-minute spot for campaigning for something as opposed to, here's an interesting person who happens to be in Austin, and we're going to bring them on. They've also, the show also, again, I will get to the good parts of this.

33:21There are certainly some people who I think, And this is not necessarily because of game day, but perhaps because of other places who think like McAfee is a little too exposed and like game day is part of that exposure. Although I would argue there that his popularity on game day is very, very significant. And he sort of changed the energy of the show. So that's been a net positive. Derek, within all this, because like this is something that I've continued to post on X about. I should say Twitter. Why am I even saying X? is I'm fascinated by the, as I'm sure the three of you are, like the viewership between the two shows.

33:56And College Game Day has gotten off to a great start, and it is mauling right now, Big Noon Kickoff, in terms of the viewership. Now, Big Noon Kickoff later in the year, they'll have their Michigan-Ohio State game. Some of this has to do with the Big Ten. It's just not as hot at the moment as the SEC. So it's interesting. And College Game Day has some of these things where we've seen a lot of criticism for them, right? Where maybe a little too political, maybe a little too whatever, but the viewership's there. Like, people are not abandoning the show. So, you know, there's a lot of things in the stew, Derek.

34:30What are your thoughts on game day right now? My opinion is that the show is becoming a little bit more difficult to watch because it feels a little bit more, and I think, Armand, you said this on our podcast, so I want to give you full credit, but I agree with you that it's starting to feel like more about themselves than about the games. And I know, Armand, you can expand on this point more, but it definitely feels a little more promotional than usual. I mean, I think the presence of Pat McAfee is probably a net positive. The kick in contest has been a huge hit and it gives the show another central cast member, you know, with the departure or retirement of Lee Corso after so many years on the program.

35:03But when we look at viewership, like it's doing well. But what I was surprised to see carving through the Nielsen data from recent weeks is that the Netflix NFL pregame show in Australia on a on a weekday actually beat College Game Day. I believe it was by almost a million viewers. You'd have to check me on that. But it still beat it. And College Game Day for three hours. That's the impressive part that the show sustains its viewership for such a long time. And obviously in person, I have to imagine College Game Day is a great scene for students and families to go attend and have a fun live experience.

35:36But the fact of the matter is that with the whole thing with the politicians, I don't think it was the best look. I mean, obviously you have people who have varying opinions on the whole thing. But in the end, the discussion on the Protect College Sports Act has been pretty prevalent. I think it would have been probably a better thing to have the opposing viewpoint on College Game Day the next week to even it out. But still, I think the main point here is that College Game Day, the identity of the show has definitely changed in recent years. And for some people, it's not for everyone at this point.

36:07It's more it doesn't feel as much about the games as it should, in my opinion. Armand, can you expand on what you said on your podcast? Yeah, I mentioned how inside the NBA sort of had this same problem in those last couple of years at TNT. It was too much about the show. Now, there's always been a degree to which it's been about Barkley and Shaq in particular. but it got so excessive that there were times where it just wasn't a good product. And the term I used was self-involved and that's what college game day has become. And I think even the segment with Ted Cruz is an example of that. It's we're going to let you know that it's kind of about us and we want you to be so wrapped up in what we are doing that.

36:54Yeah. McAfee, the energy is great. It's high in the kicking contest. That's great. I mean, it's, it's genuinely compelling television to do that but there's so many other things that happen and as a result the football is I mean it's buried underneath so many layers of frivolity and at times buffoonery and Reese Davis even as great a host as he is he feels like an afterthought on that show and I can't help but compare it to the authority that Chris Fowler had as the host of college Chris Fowler ran college game day. If you go back and watch those clips in the late 90s and early mid 2000s, Fowler drove that show in such an impressive manner.

37:38Davis does not have a lot of those same privileges because there's so many competing factors. It feels like the show is being pulled in so many different directions. And as a result, you get this sort of self-involved experience where you're watching people sort of make all these innuendos and these jokes that not even everybody gets. Like, I don't even know what some of these folks are talking about, but they're making references to things that happened on social media. Wink, wink, you know, wink and a nod. Did you catch what we tweeted out the other day? I heard what somebody said. We're saying it, but we're not really saying it.

38:12And as a result, it's like, but I want to hear about Baylor Houston and I want to hear about North Carolina Clemson. And I want to be able to take in the environment and the atmosphere of the place where a college game day is coming from. And I just think a lot of that's been lost. And with that exception, and sorry, the perception by the viewers can often be the reality. I know they say perception is reality. You know, the fact is, you're having someone come on talk about the Protect College Sports Act, you assume that means the network is advocating for it. And I know it would have some changes with television rights and all of that.

38:42So, you know, I think I really think the opposing viewpoint is essential. And I would encourage ESPN to still bring that to college game day. And I think remedy that. Boy, that is a really interesting comment by you, Armand. I appreciate that. I'm going to go back and listen to your podcast in full. John, I want to post something to you literally right off what Armand said. I think his thought about the show becoming too self-involved is dead on. Here's what I would posit. I think that could be by design because ESPN has become so obsessed with focusing on certain personalities at their network that they've almost made an editorial or DNA decision that what we're selling to you is people and personality where once upon a time, what college game day sold was the atmosphere.

39:36You would agree? Like we're in the grove. You don't live here. This is the coolest thing ever. We're taking you to this place. We want They want you to feel what it's like to be college football. They obviously are always going to still have a little bit of that because obviously they're there. But I would argue that today what ESPN markets on college game day is Pat McAfee, Nick Saban, and then Kirk Herbstreet, a little less, and then sometimes Desmond Howard, and then sometimes Reese Davis. But that's what they're selling. So that's interesting. And again, so far, the viewership has not hurt them.

40:13But I will say, I think Derek and Armand are dead on. I've been reading more comments about College Game Day in the last couple of months in terms of a negative kind of connotation than I ever have for a show which historically, for as long as I've written about that show, like Inside the NBA, has only gotten positive reviews. It's pretty interesting, though, Armand. Thank you for bringing that up. John, what do you think? Well, I think I agree completely with the idea that it has become very much about itself. And this does happen somewhat naturally, although, I mean, one, let's talk about the ratings for a second.

40:50Let's talk about, obviously, we know game day is doing great. What is the number one studio show in all of TV every single week? I would assume it's the NBC lead-in to Sunday Night Football? Oh, yeah, technically. Am I cheating? I mean, that's technically right. You're not cheating. You're technically correct. But it's Fox NFL Sunday. Fox NFL Sunday is the number one studio show on all of TV every single week and has been for 30 years. And man, is that show irrelevant. Nobody talks about it. The only time you ever see that show mentioned ever is when Terry Bradshaw has a not great moment on the air.

41:26And, you know, I bring it up because I'm curious. I don't even know if Fox NFL Sunday is self-referential because I don't know the last time I watched it. It's been a long time. So winning in the ratings obviously is important. But at a certain point, people do things out of habit, not necessarily endorsing anything. They just do it out of habit. I think for the people who are really turned off by the way game day has changed, those people might not be watching as much. but certainly I don't think there's enough of them yet to impact the numbers. But that doesn't mean that everyone who's tuning in is like, whoa, this is great.

42:03A lot of people just watch stuff out of habit. I mean, if Fox NFL Sunday is still my number one NFL pregame show, then we have evidence that people just tune in out of habit, whether they like the product or not. So to me, I'm not going to go crazy over the ratings, although they are very impressive for college game day. I will simply say, you know, at ESPN right now, it's very reminiscent. It's almost like a second non-consecutive term of Mark Shapiro. And this is so much like the first time around. Very abrasive, obsessed with the personality over the actual sport. And even Skip Bayless was on ESPN today, which I only know because you go to ESPN.com and they force feed you all of their morning show content.

42:52You know, they are going back into the way it was in the early 2000s. And eventually they had to clean that up. They had to say, enough, we've done enough damage to our brand and we've antagonized enough people. We've got to get this stuff out of here, which they did. And then they just went right back to it as soon as John Skipper stepped out. And given all the changes that Nielsen has done to the television ratings, you might not see anytime soon where there's an obvious penalty that you're paying for antagonizing people. But the show is antagonizing people, right? And whether they're antagonized because they don't like the politics, whether they like the politics but they don't like what they see as conference bias, whether they just don't like McAfee, whether they don't like Herbstreet, which, frankly, I think Herbstreet probably is right there with McAfee in terms of not necessarily being someone people love.

43:46Whatever the reason, this show's given people a lot of reasons not to like it. And 10 years ago, this show gave people zero reasons not to like it. I don't know. It's an interesting approach. Because if you can be successful and have nobody hate you, you're probably on more solid ground than if you're successful despite a lot of people hating you for a lot of different reasons. They still far and away have more segments than not from what I've watched, which people like. But what we're talking about is well worth sort of paying attention to and examining. I think the structure of the show, as John said, is always going to produce good viewership because it's a genius kind of idea to go to these very famous college campuses where people are so excited and you get to live that experience when you are not from there.

44:39That in itself is enough for that show to continue. But these issues are interesting. All right, John, I'll give you the last word on this, and then we'll finish up with Doc Rivers. Because you made a great point. they don't go to small schools anymore. People have been mentioning this on social media. I'm far from the first person to point it out, but they don't go to James Madison. They don't go to FAMU because they don't care anymore about showing you the full breadth of college football and giving you something unique and interesting that you might not know about because they care more about themselves at this point than they do about college football.

45:13If anybody at ESPN can deny that, I'd love to hear it. But I think that's obvious that this show is much more about mcafee herb street you know and and frankly really just kind of those two i mean sabin you know sabin and then desmond howard is almost grandfathered in you know i mean like this show is so much about the personalities and so little about the game of college football the pageantry of college football and what people love about college football when it is about college football it's about all the things people hate about it all of this stuff with the politics and the boardrooms and all of the things that it's amazing that college football has not seen a popularity hit from all of this unending drama behind the scenes from this decade.

46:00But, you know, what the sport, but the sport is it's such I mean, George was going to say that's not that's not going to happen because the sport is so culturally imbued in certain areas of the country where it's it doesn't matter. Like it's religion for many, right? It's culture for many. In the same way, if you lived and grew up in New York, like baseball is never not going to be popular in New York. It's just it has too long a history. So like I agree with you, John, the sport has myriad of issues, but history already tells us it's not going to get less popular. Well, yeah. And I mean, that's the thing.

46:33The sport's not going to get less popular. Maybe game day doesn't either. But what game day had was what people loved about college football. The more that it's about the other stuff, I think there's some potential danger. there even if the ratings don't bear it out yet good discussion we'll finish up on this doc rivers has joined nbc as a an analyst i'm sure i'm sure the people at espn love seeing that press release after doc uh jetted out of there after however many weeks uh he was with uh them to take the bucks job there um doc does have a history at least from my perspective of being a pretty good analyst.

47:08Now, I don't know. You know, we'll have to see who he's going to work with at NBC, what what what he's going to end up doing. But it's a good move for them because I think one, he's he's current. So he knows the players who are in the league. That's a massive value for a coach getting this job. And secondly, he has a track record of being good, even if you didn't think he was great on ESPN in his very, very brief stint prior to that. He was good. And so I think, you know, It's a good move. Hopefully, if you're Doc, or hopefully if you're NBC, Doc doesn't go back to a coaching job in like 20 minutes or whatever.

47:42But I don't know. I thought it was interesting, and I'm willing to give Doc the benefit of the doubt. Derek, what were your initial thoughts when you saw that Doc Rivers had an NBC? How soon, if possible, does he get to the lead crew? Because the last time he was on a lead crew, he didn't make it to the finals. So what you have to ask yourself with Doc Rivers is the level of commitment. I think NBC is building a really strong talent roster. the level of depth is pretty impressive on the NBA side. When you think about it, I mean, the network has continued to add and demonstrate a commitment to investing there.

48:10So that's been a good thing. But getting Doc Rivers gives you more credibility. I have to imagine he does the game with his son at some point, who's also an analyst with NBC, Austin Rivers. But again, the question is the level of commitment. I believe he said in an interview, I want to say it was with Joe Reedy of the Associated Press that he's done with coaching at this point, is committed to the broadcast. But I believe he said similarly when he joined ESPN. So, you know, we'll see. We'll see if that changes. But I think it'll be a good thing to have Doc on the broadcast. And again, we'll see who he works with at this point.

48:38It's a good point. And I know everybody always seems to be super high on Robbie Hummel. So that's like that's a guy you got to sort of watch long term. Armand, what about you? Initial thoughts when you saw that Doc was heading to NBC? Well, I wondered when Doc returned to broadcasting, he's too good a talent to not be doing television and I think it's the thing that upset a lot of folks the most about Doc Rivers his reputation as a coach had been so sullied after so many failed experiments that when he went back into television to be with Doris Burke and Mike Breen it was a genius strategy by ESPN you get rid of Jeff and Gundy and Mark Jackson which was not a genius move but then you bring in Doc and Doris and you say okay we know Doc we're familiar with Doc as a television analyst he was really good back in the day, made Al Michaels sound somewhat decent on the NBA, was a great analyst with Kevin Harlan and Vern Lundquist back at TNT in the late 1990s.

49:39So yeah, let's bring Doc Rivers in and see if he can sort of coast into this final stage of his NBA career, similar to how Hubie Brown did. And then he went right back. And so it's interesting to me because I I believe that even now, not having heard him in a few years because he's been coaching, I believe that Doc Rivers is a better analyst than both Reggie Miller and Jamal Crawford, who will continue as co-lead analysts at NBC. And I think a lot of objective observers would agree with that. It says a lot, though, that they don't bring him in as a lead analyst because Doc's going to have to prove himself.

50:17and and if he's willing to do that if he's willing to lay his ego down and do the work of he'll probably work with different people jason benetti tariko terry gannon uh noah eagle he'll probably work with all of them michael grady i'm sure as well but if he's willing to prove himself and over time prove that commitment to nbc it would not surprise me and john made this point on our podcast the other day. NBC does not have a conference final this year, but they have one next year. And so this could be a year where they say, all right, Doc, prove to us you can stay a year. And if you can stay a year and prove that you're committed, maybe he ends back up in that lead chair with Mike Tirico doing a conference final next season.

51:01Yeah. And the one thing that sort of really stood out from what you just said, NBC has got a really deep bench of really good play-by-play people for the NBA. So Doc should look good regardless. And none of the networks right now have the John Madden. Do you know what I mean? There's no slam dunk NBA analyst. So there is a place for anybody to come in and get that number one chair. John, I'll let you have the last word. My only prediction that this is it for Doc and this is his last stop in the NBA is he's 64. I just, I don't know if he's going back to coach again. You know, you'd really need the right owner.

51:39And his last coaching stint was a failure. And so that would just be my guess that he's, this is it for him. But it's an, it's a good hire. Like it just is. It's an interesting hire and they got a guy who's very current and, and, and right off the floor. How'd you see it? Well, I think Doc Rivers, and it's not a slight necessarily against his coaching, But I think Doc was always a better TV analyst than coach. And again, that's not a slight to him because I think Steve Kerr was a better TV analyst than coach. And he's got four rings, right? I think it's because coaching carries a certain prestige that TV analysis doesn't that they did not stick with what is their best skill.

52:19You look at John Madden in the NFL, John Madden stuck with broadcasting. And there's going to be a movie about him coming up. Probably not a very good one. But nonetheless, there's a movie about him coming up. Yeah, Nick Cage, that's good casting. I kind of like that. Well, I think Frank Caliendo might have a word on that. But look, I mean, the fact is that TV analysis doesn't have that prestige, so you go into coaching to win titles or compete for them. It's a shame because I think Doc missed out on maybe 20 solid years of being the best analyst, one of the best analysts in all the sports, potentially.

52:51But it is what it is. As you said, when you go back into coaching, Hubie Brown did, And Hubie was in TV for a really long time before he went back into coaching with the Memphis Grizzlies. And Hubie's had to have been closer to 70 or maybe even over 70. And, of course, you know, hey, Jack McKeon's still out there somewhere, right? Didn't he come back, coach the Marlins to the World Series at 70-something years old? So I could see Doc going back in. But for now, I think he's at least going to get through a couple of seasons, I think, at least a couple of seasons. And depending on his performance this year, I do think that he could come back next year and maybe be that number one guy.

53:31If they put him with Tirico a few times and they really hit it off. I said this on our podcast the other day because I brought up Madden. Al Michaels had better chemistry with Doc Rivers than with John Madden. And interesting. So you don't agree. I'm not sure I agree with that. Yeah. Okay. John, you prefaced it as a hot take on our pod. I think the chemistry was excellent for both. I just don't know if I would say better kind of thing. I think, I mean, Doc, Al was very shaky on the NBA. If you remember those two seasons, they never worked. But the times when he worked with Doc Rivers, that first year, that was his best work.

54:08And he seemed to really enjoy it. And, you know, I think obviously I'm pretty sure Al and Doc, as Armand said the other day in our podcast, are still good friends today. So I think Doc has the ability, kind of like a bit like an iron eagle, but from the analyst side, to elevate, if not his partners, to elevate his partnership. And if you get him and Tirico and they have the right chemistry together and they really are feeding off of each other, that has the potential to be a really, really unbeatable pairing, potentially. But we have to see how it will work out. The best thing about that discussion, that's the first ever Jack McKeon reference on this podcast.

54:48So thank you for that, John, who I believe is still alive in his night. He is. I believe so. And I'll tell you something. That was the all-time best Chris Berman bit with Jack McKeon smoking that cigar. Doesn't that smell good and taste good? I never forgot that. That one and Berman on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers pirate ship, which might have been the same bit, actually, now that I think about it. Trader Jack, an amazing run back in the day. All right. My thanks to John Lewis, Armand Brody, and Derek Futterman. Catch all of their work, obviously, on Sports Media Watch. We didn't even get into, and I'll have these guys back on certainly in the next two weeks.

55:28We'll get into the WNBA playoffs and the viewership for the regular season because there's a lot of interesting things I want to talk about. Obviously, if you're the WNBA, you really want the fever to last long, with a fever name out last long given this playoff matchup. So it's pretty interesting. And we'll definitely, we'll definitely talk about that. Please check out their podcast. They always have interesting discussions as well as excellent guests. Thank you, John. Thank you, Armand. Thank you, Derek, as always. Thank you. All right. Stick around guys. Let me, let me get us out of here with this.

56:01If you like these conversations, head to the archives. We've had a ton of round tables, obviously on many different topics from JJ Watt. and coming on with Nance to Tony Romo to, you know, sort of, you know, we did something actually not too long ago, I think with these guys maybe. No, no, that was with Austin and Chad and John on if the Manning cast had peaked. And we're starting to continue to see viewership numbers of the Manning cast really sinking. So that's a story that I will definitely get back to on this podcast. In terms of guests, Trey Aikman, obviously aforementioned, was on this podcast.

56:35last week. Damian Woody on September 15th, Susie Culber on September 10th. Very much appreciate the three of them coming on. And obviously, both Troy and Susie made some news with what they had to say. Leave reviews and notes on the podcast. Always appreciated and helpful. Want to thank James Jackson for all his hard work. Thanks to Odyssey for their support. And most of all, thank you for listening. We'll see you soon on Sports Media Podcast.

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