Hustle Awards 2025 Special: de Novo Solutions, Winner of Most Successful Scaleup

0:00Welcome back to the Serial Entrepreneur, I'm your host Anna Wood. On today's episode, I'm joined by Mark Sweeney, the founder and group chief executive of DeNovo Solutions. We discuss always focusing on the fundamentals, championing the Welsh ecosystem, and winning the most successful scale-up award at the Hustle Awards 2025. Let's dig in. Hi Mark, welcome to the podcast today. How are you? I'm fine, thank you, Anna. It's good to be here. Yeah, thanks for coming on. So we begin every podcast episode with our signature icebreaker question, which is what's your favourite breakfast cereal and why?

0:42My favourite breakfast cereal? I'm a granola and fruit person with Greek yoghurt. See, it's a classic, I hear that a lot as well. Healthy these days. Yeah, you've got to be. So would you be able to introduce yourself and tell me a bit about your background? Yeah, certainly. My name is Mark Sweeney. I'm a serial entrepreneur. I'm currently the founder and group chief executive as we're growing of DeNovo Solutions. Denevo basically creates digital experiences for HR, payroll, finance and procurement using Oracle Cloud technology and ServiceNow. And so we're renowned for implementing basic digital transformation across back office systems.

1:34Very deep, large public sector presence, work for central government, local government, and now the police as well. sectors but also in the commercial sector with some of the largest multinational companies around the world. Wow that is amazing did you want to talk more about DeNovo Solutions and your offerings and what you're trying to achieve? Yeah so the history with DeNovo starts with my previous company as I said I was a serial entrepreneur and it was called Certus Solutions and Certus was the original pioneers of Oracle Cloud applications for HR payroll finance procurement over 10 years ago now, 2012.

2:19Now it's getting on, it's even longer than that now. So it's getting into 12 years.

2:28So it's over 12 years. So we got involved with what we just used the term cloud now. and we got involved with it when we didn't even call it cloud that's how early it was but we saw the potential for a new range of applications which were basically previously where you you bought the software you ran it yourself on premise what we call so you bought the hardware you bought you bought everything yourself and you implemented it and looked after it and there's and you you know upgrades were very expensive and that's just the way software had been from the 90s and into the early noughties. And then clouds came along and we were serendipitously in the right place that we could work with Oracle.

3:17Because why would Oracle talk to us? Because we had the expertise of how you actually implement these systems. You know, they would build the product, but we know how we actually implement these systems. So which was really, really, really key. so they weren't building things in an ivory tower. They were building things that we could implement. So we built that company up and then what we did is we built blueprints for given industries on top of that software. And the one we focused on was central government because that was our background. We knew it. So we built a blueprint for central government for ECO Cloud and we basically sold that and implemented it at the ONS, which is down in Wales, and that was the first public sector implementation of Oracle Cloud in central government.

4:10And six months later, we did the Treasury, which is obviously quite a big one. And then we got involved with the Home Office, really, after that, from there. And at that point, the company was acquired by a company, American Systems Integrator, called Accenture. So we did that. We did some time for Accenture. And then really we felt we had a lot of unfinished business. There's things that we wanted to do that we couldn't do with venture. And we wanted to come back. And during that time, the technology had evolved. It moved on. New innovation was coming out. And there was new opportunities in the marketplace.

4:50And there was things that we felt we could do that could add value to the customers and the basis. And so we decided to come back as DeNovo. and because I'd worked down in Wales 20 years, I'd seen the potential of building the company down in Wales and that's why we based ourselves down in Wales. Plus my wife's Welsh as well, so... We've got ties down here, but we based ourselves down here so it's a really good place to build a technology business and we wanted to do it different from the way we did it. We learned a lot of things on that journey. I think when you're an entrepreneur you're always learning, you never know it all you're constantly learning you're constantly evaluating and pushing and understanding yourself and things that we did right with Certus, we rolled forward and do obviously more of that with Denevo and the things we didn't do so well with Certus, we don't do those things again so stop learning so yeah, proud Welsh company but you know that's come back in and using the technology you know to deliver value for our customers moving forward.

6:03Do you think there was a particular moment between your other company getting acquired that and kind of the founding of DeNovo where you thought no we do need to keep doing something ourselves? Yeah I mean I think the thing is there's not many people that actually sell a company should we say for a financial reward um that that financial reward was very beneficial um but you i'm not the kind of person to sit at home for the rest of my life and um and i i felt there were things i wanted to do that i didn't get to do and and it was becoming like the itch I couldn't scratch really and and I I felt that I really needed to come back and do these things and I I had a lot of support um and I I went in in a good way I went right back to the beginning and and it was nice really because the best bit for me when you're being an entrepreneur creating companies is I always usually say it's the first 15 minutes and then after that everything's just hard work but I wanted to go back and see what the next generation of entrepreneurs were doing so I would go to events talk to you know younger people seeing you know because things change and move on it was to get new ideas but I also learned from doing that how much I actually knew I knew so much because of I had gone through this journey and um and it was being able to leverage all of that knowledge in a way but i think it was a case of that when i sold um so it's just i was only 50 years old so i was young i'm only 56 now so it's it's um um you know i'm still like to think i'm a young person um and um i i could just see there was opportunities and it was just things i wanted to do and also from going on it and you know it's good fun when you're building and running the company and especially when you get it to be successful and we we kind of knew that way there were things that we could do in terms of like especially tackling problems like the digital skills shortage and the big reason for coming to wales was like the welsh apprenticeship scheme so we could leverage the welsh apprenticeship scheme which i think is fantastic for young people so we've now been doing that four years we've now got 10 young people straight from school into tech trained up using industry standard skills so it's a small number but we're you know still a small company I'll say that we're 125 people today but that you know that's 10 jobs and 10 people that wouldn't have had those opportunities and we like doing that and the Welsh Government apprenticeship graduate apprenticeship schemes is fantastic where um so that that was a big thing and then we created our own graduate scheme and you know we we could develop ourselves and as i said there was ideas and things that we wanted to do that we could we we couldn't we we wanted to go and try really i mean not everything is always successful you know even de novo like it's an overnight success but we're now just in our fifth year we have done it very fast i will say this we have done it incredibly quickly at twice the speed of certas.

9:25But we, you know, I think a lot of that is due to experience and knowledge and knowing how to do it. Plus, there was clearly a gap in the market, again, that we could come back and address, which helped. And, of course, we had some benefits this time around. We didn't have to worry so much about funding and we didn't have to worry so much about them. We had a lot of contacts and industry clients who were open to, yes, if you come back, we would like to do business with you, which is a start because without customers, you haven't got a business. So from that side of things. So there were things that were going in our favour this time round.

10:14But I think it was, I really do put it down. There was just unfinished business. there's things that we wanted to do and it was really getting exciting was it the right thing to sell the previous company at the right point in time absolutely it was it definitely was the right right time the right thing to do but equally there were still things that we wanted to do and denogo has been that catalyst to allow us to do those things so that's where we are yeah and i think second time around you take all that knowledge that you gained the first time and you can kind of be like okay what what are we doing differently what are we going to do the same and what are we just going to take a risk on now absolutely and and you know i think you know you don't get a fast path straight back to the top of a mountain i think if you want to use the metaphor perhaps we know the route up we know we don't have to find the route we know how to get there but even when you get to the top you've got to stay up there and that's hard work it's hard work because the only way is down when you're at the top of it all so I wouldn't say we're at the top of the moment but we're getting ready to summit shall we say, we're getting ready so we're nearly back where we want to be I think it is it is easier in terms that you've got the knowledge and the experience but I would have to say 2025 I've been running my own business now since what 23 years it's the hardest business environment I've ever operated in it's not easy for people out there it really really isn't it's it's difficult them so it just I would say it just makes it even more challenging but I could say a little bit more rewarding of what we've achieved in such difficult market circumstances is is you know been amazing and it's not just me it's all the people because it's a team game it's a team game it's all the people that have been involved in it that have gone on the journey so you know they've rightly all of them are rightly to be proud of what they've achieved.

12:31Yeah, that's great. So what do you think differentiates DeNovo from competitors in the market? Oh, quite a lot, actually. I think, you know, it's an interesting question because I think a lot of entrepreneurs, when they start off, they've got to be different, got to be different, how we're different and why we're different. And actually, sometimes you don't have to be different, that much different. It could just be that a market's being poorly served and you can do it better. So if you want your MBA business strategy, three words, better, cheaper, faster. If you can do two of those three, you've probably got something.

13:09If you can do all three, brilliant. But it probably saves a lot of people£20 ,000 going on MBA courses. If you can think of anything in terms of better, cheaper, faster, get two out of the three, you've probably got something. from there so I think that's key but for us differentiator being in Wales definitely number one because even I mean we're a 10 million pound turnover company 125 people we've got operation in India here so we're top end to small bottom end to medium and we're scale but if we were doing this in london we would be a minnow and people wouldn't be able to hear our message but in in wales in a way i can monopolize wales because it's a small is a small country and you know you look at wales there's just over three million people in it 2.3 million are in south wales between really newport down to swansea that that's obviously the area we're in and because we're in the tech industry and there's great tech businesses that have come out of wales great brands and founders down there, it's a really good place to be.

14:21So we've got, we can promote ourselves, but also we can promote the country as well. So it's kind of both people win. And because we're the only ones doing what we do down here on scale, we kind of big fish, small pond. That works really well. So people follow us, they notice us from that side. So being in Wales is good. And being in Wales, because of the apprenticeship programs, is massive. So what we've done is when you're scaling the company and you're building the company, you're building it sustainably. And that, to me, is about the company's still going to be here in three months' time, six months' time, nine months' time, two years, five years there.

15:05So you have to build your infrastructure and your talent pools to be able to provide that kind of sustainability. And the Wales Apprenticeship Scheme gave us the opportunity of bringing youngsters into the work environment from school, learning industry skills Monday to Thursday. And on Friday, we work with the University of South Wales. They go and do a degree at the University of South Wales, and that degree is 100 % paid for by the Welsh Government. So they're an employee of mine, so they're earning proper money, a wage. So they're earning while they're learning. And they're also coming out with a degree at the end from, you know, a very credible university from there.

15:50So, I mean, it's pretty good. If I could live my time again, I would do it. So I think the ability to leverage WOWS to me, which is an untapped talent pool, is, you know, over time. And it is hard. You know, it does take years. And to be honest, really, that program is a 10 year investment, even for us. and we are now year four into going into five into it because you build capacity in the model. So I think that's key. We come back to Oracle Cloud. We were the pioneers of it, so we've come back to our home territory. But technology has moved on as well. So we also do service now as well. So we do two products we can implement and we can use.

16:34So we do that. We create our own IPR. We're not just a professional services consultancy. So we've gone back to the certus journey. We create blueprints. This time we've created a blueprint for government. We've created a blueprint for local government. We're going to create, we haven't done it yet, we're going to create a blueprint for police. and our biggest growth area that we see is multi-academy trust secondary education and being able to take digital transformation to a sector that's pretty i would say i i personally feel is unrepresented there's not enough traction for back office digital transformation and multi-academy trust which is really the pulling of schools together as a unit are bigger than some and the government departments we've implemented in over the years.

17:25So, you know, in terms of volume. And, of course, we're asking schools, a lot of schools these days, because they're really kind of dealing with a lot of social aspects as well as what they're there for delivering education. But we're also asking them to run as businesses. And that's where you need people like me to provide the systems, the knowledge and the know-how, of how to run those systems efficiently. So we've got that as well. I think, you know, if that's not alone enough, I think also we've got a lovely blend of that. We don't have to outsource the implementation technology. We're totally self-sufficient.

18:05So if we say the larger tier one organisations usually have to subcontract out large parts of implementation. We don't have to do that. We can do it all ourselves in-house. We do have partners for very, very specialist areas. we don't do. But, you know, we're talking 95 % of what we do, we have our own capability of being able to do it. So that's a differentiator. And of course, we've got incredibly massive industry knowledge of the public sector, central government, we've worked in it over 20 years. That's what brought me to Wales over 20 years ago, because I built one of the government's first shared service centres down here, down the road.

18:51So it's amazing how a project like that can have such an influence on your life, really, and your career. I never thought that at the time from there. And, you know, having that understanding of the demands. I mean, I love the public sector because it is, and if you park your political views to one side, it is a very fast-moving environment. People think it's slow, but it's actually not. it's incredibly fast moving and you know the need to be reactive and driving forward is great so we do that and i think the last thing is we've got our own r &d capability so yes we do play with ai and things like that i still think we do the bread and butter stuff which is get these systems in people come because we get things delivered and get systems in and working but again we're evolving our own products our own we're doing our own research into it how do you apply it to what use cases so there's actually when you sit down and break it down there's a lot of differentiators in it which is probably a lot more than most people but again some of it a lot of that I think is experience knowing how to do it in in a given sector yeah I was going to say a lot of differentiating factors and I think it's quite refreshing how you're such a champion for Wales as well because the UK tech ecosystem is very is strong but I feel like when it comes to more regional ecosystems you don't on a bigger stage people don't really discuss oh yeah we are based in Wales or oh we're based in kind of Birmingham it's so much focus on say Manchester and London and then anything outside of that is kind of not not visible yeah i mean i i i think you find talent everywhere you find talent everywhere and and um i i saw so whales everybody looks at whales and goes oh it's landlocked it's the info right the info is a problem it's not in and out the info is a problem um and it will still be a problem i've i've i've got but um but actually where people see geographically it's a problem but you can deliver great tech from anywhere in the world but equally there's an untapped talent pool down here generally people coming out the schools because of the social fabric down here it's a great place to live quality of life's good they don't necessarily want to leave Wales to go somewhere else so that talent pool's there it's just untapped and that's what we could see and also Wales we want Wales to punch above its weight to raise its aspirations so kind of the ingredients are there you you don't change this overnight you don't change an economy in a background from heavy industry from tourism there to high-tech digital But, you know, Wowsy is attracting some big names.

21:52I mean, Aston Martin, actually down in the Valor-Glamorgan, you know, it's high tech. We've got a lot of medical instruments, very big in microchips, really, really big down here in factories producing that. So the technology is here. The ingredients are all here. So it's there. But we've got place, you know, to be fair, we've got great places around the country. you mentioned Birmingham, yeah, Manchester, Newcastle, you know, and you've also got the, you know, the Glasgow-Edinburgh corridor as well, which has been around forever, really. So, you know, it's not, you know, it's not just London.

22:34You know, obviously London and the South East, for lots of reasons, still attracts a lot of it all. But there is, I think when you're building companies and things, there are opportunities elsewhere and you need just to open your mind to it. From there, as I said, I was lucky. You can tell from my accent, I'm a boy from South East London. Yes, my wife's Welsh, but I was lucky to work down here for 20 years and I've really paid attention to what the Welsh government's been trying to do and what the opportunities were down here. So absolutely no regrets. But if I'm benefiting from that, yeah, I'll champion Wales in return and fly the flag.

23:15Because if we attract other companies down here, it's going to help me as well. So it's all about helping one another. So why not, you know, why not raise the flag? Hope the rugby team can get a bit better ago, though. Yeah. So you mentioned earlier how fast DeNovo Solutions has grown. what do you think have been the key drivers of this growth for you key drivers i think there was a real need i think after we sold certus and i'll be you know deferential to the my competitors and competition i think we left a really big gap in the market in the middle of the market and nobody really filled it and we it was still there three years later after we sold it and nobody seemed to really know how to do it or move back into that space so we came back in um for various reasons customers weren't being served and because of our reputations and what we did basically we had people that were willing to help us get going again and um you know get contracts and i've always been a big believer if people help me you know to get going and to build build and we say to customers today if you're coming if you were doing business with one another you're part of my journey as I'm part of helping you so I'm really clear about what I'm doing with the company I really communicate with the company what you've helped us to do so the monies you've paid us this is what we've done with it like the apprenticeship scheme we fit that way the company's more bigger it's more sustainable therefore you Mr.

24:55Customer and Mrs. Customer will benefit from that because I'm building greater depth of experience, more capability. So I communicate from there. So I think once people could see it working and getting widgets delivered, you know, runs on the board, our customers then start introducing to other customers. So today, and we measure everything, we measure absolutely everything. So I'm quite a data freak really behind it. So 62 % of our business comes from repeat business from our customers or our customers introducing us to other customers, recommending us to someone else. 62%. So that's an incredible statistic.

25:38And you only get that kind of statistic if you're doing a really, really good job day in, day out. and yes everybody has a bad day at times but it's how you deal with it how you react with it how you correct the situation and preserve long-term relationships and because we're not a flash in the pan we're around there people can trust and rely on us and and i think as much about what we do and how we do it because we're big into delivery excellence we go back to the basics delivering really well, driving customer satisfaction, customer accuracy. That's really, really key to us. It's fundamentally in the DNA.

26:17And from that, but it's also about the way we conduct ourselves, the way we go about business. And I think some people find that very, very refreshing, really.

26:33You know, that's where we are. So I think that's helped fuel the growth. That has really helped the growth. Yeah, and speaking about growth and scaling, DeNovo Solutions won the most successful scale-up award at the Hustle Awards this year. So congratulations on that. Thank you. So how did that make you feel, and what does that mean for the company? Oh, I think it's fantastic, you know, because it's that industry recognition, and it's not just about me. It's about the company. It's about all the people that work for the company. it's the you know it's 125 of us and it doesn't matter if you're in India if you're in Guildford or you're working from home or in Wales obviously um you know everyone contributes to that so it's a reward for everyone and so to be recognized for the people our people to be recognized in that way is really important it's really really really important and and you know I think that to me that's first and foremost what why why we go into awards because I want us to be recognized for what we do um and when we get that recognition and you know we were you we're up to win is fantastic because you're up against some really hard competition you know there's great stories there you know i mean everyone's good that goes in you know there you know and it's and it's tough to win but to be to win it and to be recognized for what we've done and all the efforts is fantastic for the people and then it also sends um positive messages to our customers and to the industry you know we're here to stay um we're moving forward you know that that's that's it's it's all really really really good stuff so um you know i i'm incredibly proud of it and of having achieved it and you know it's um yeah it's it's it's good it's really good Yeah obviously as you said the competition's tough but literally year on year the judges say it gets harder to judge because the actual quality of the entries and the people entering are constantly getting better they're like it's so difficult to judge so even being shortlisted is truly an honour already and then winning is just that cherry on top.

28:53Yeah yeah no absolutely absolutely so what do you think have been some of the biggest challenges on the de novo journey so far and how have you managed to overcome them even though we knew people building the team around you you know there is a lot of ex-certus people that that we've worked together a long time that that have come back and from there but you still got to take everybody on the journey do you know you've got to take everybody on the journey um and trying and and you know not everybody wants to come back and that's not a personal thing people at different stages of their life you know and and it's still risky there's no guarantee that you're going to be successful i mean perhaps we would say in our given sector and what we do if anybody was going to pull it off it was us but you know we are talking we are a slice of the technology sector it's very well well defined but there's still no guarantee so there is a risk um we we don't just throw loads of money at it we we want it to be self-sufficient that's important self-funding itself and you've got to build that up so you've got to still be quite frugal to begin with with with it all and it's hard it's hard it still took us from the moment we could start training trading it still took us six months to get our first contract then after that it started to go like dominoes then we had a little fallow period and then it really started to go like dominoes um like crazy so um so i think um getting the message back we're back you know it still took time um but we did have people that we've done business with that really trusted us and and were prepared to go by us which which helped us um and but you still got to bring you've still got to bring that team together and and to to get everybody on the same message and and work in the same direction so that that that's that's a challenge um from from there i think the general business environment is tough you know there's um still a skills shortage and when you start to build a company as much as we want to invest in young people you need knowledge and experienced professionals around you and they are expensive right and and right rightly so they you know the value they bring is significant and they're helping you so you've still got to be able to fund that in in ways um from from there um i mean one of the things i'm still a big fan and we did this at at certus it's it's a team of people that helps build a successful company and we do um we do make use of the government's emi scheme where we use options so if we ultimately sold it and exited or we merged with someone or something happened further down the line there would be the potential for a liquidity event where people who have helped built it could um basically make money from it they're going to get something out of it so we you know because it's a lot of effort a lot of hours a lot of challenges so we we we we we're quite big fans of that um you you know why i mean we to give you an idea um on a liquidity event 20 of the company would would would go down to the staff so we we're not frugal about it do you know because again it's a collective that helps build it building the right team around you is key but it's hard work because sometimes it's like you want certain people but you just cannot afford them you know you you just cannot afford them or the timing's just not right for someone because they've got other things going on in their life and as i said when we built certas when i was doing it i was really building it in in my late 30s and 40s you know to to through there was various incarnations of it before we exited um obviously everyone's a lot older now so the the the you know the the just life is different isn't it so but it's knowing that um i think keeping up with technology the evolution of it um look ai has been around i started in 1987 and we were talking about an ai in 97 and sorry 87 1987 so that's when i started my career in it and was talking about in the 80s what's happened in recent years ai has become commoditized it's become accessible um but i i still think um and it's a great technology but it's how it's applied and you know trust me next year there'll be something else and there'll be something else so the speed of the innovation and what comes with it um people can't adopt it fast enough um you know we we tend to adopt it more in our b2c environment than a b2 business the business environment so it's just keeping up with it and even you know as i said we we you know experts with oracle and we use service now but if you if you just focus on oracle for a second the speed of innovation that oracle's delivering i mean you know we know what we're doing and we struggle keeping up with it we really struggle keeping up with it so just the speed at which innovation is coming at us and then you know knowing that you've got to be able to think differently you've got to in time be able to incorporate it into it i don't think you need to rush it it's not going anywhere as i said it's been around since the 80s but it's like how you incorporate it how you think differently how it will have impacts on your business model and and your revenue streams moving forward and it and it's being ahead of the curve as well but you generally find with business generally it is behind the curve because it can't it just cannot accommodate the speed of the change so there is there is a bit of time so you can see how the technology matures a bit before you you adopt it you don't need necessarily always to be the first one out the door i mean sometimes that strategy works we did that with certus it was very traditional as i said we we did better cheaper faster we did all three and we did something called first mover advantages so we set the market but we could then when we came back it was a different marketplace you can't use that strategy so you've got to develop it's different so it's something like that so getting the right team the evolute and the speed of the evolution and the technology I think's been been the biggest challenges and then as you're scaling keeping it all together you know um how you run a company when there's six of you then 20 of you it's very different when there's 50 of you and 125 of you and you cross multiple continents so the structures you have to put in place to support your growth that's challenging that's challenging you know to do it at that kind of scale and it and it takes time so obviously they will go through yeah great and kind of on the flip side of that what would you say have been the biggest highlights on the journey so far oh biggest highlights i do you know for me brogan who was our first first apprentice he's just graduated so we've got him through the cycle that that that's massive that's massive and you always take the mick with him because he's the first he's always the first so you've always got that broken you were the first no one could take that away from you so seeing him grow and develop from when we first met him to see him graduate graduate and be recognized because he's up for an award in wales fintech wales or fintech wales wales for an apprentice of the year and we're saying to him look just to be shortlisted is massive do you know what i mean and i mean if you want it oh well yeah it'll take all the oxygen out there but rightly so but personally seeing him graduate was pretty it was was really cool and and a lot of people felt that way a lot of people that way especially the people that's kind of started the company because he came in right at the beginning so he was like really i think he was about the 12th employee he came right at the beginning and he's seen it grow and for him to get through to graduate i think it's massive they're um winning uh a couple of our contracts taking it off the i've always liked punching above my weight there's nothing like winning against the bigger guys with a different proposition and we've done a couple of those that that's been we have a nice little smile on our face when we do that still got to deliver it we've got to deliver it you know you you know you don't bite off more than you can chew but to win something like that it's there um i think and the general highlight is just being so well received back our customers have old 80 of them have come back to us i think that says they want to work with us and that's really nice because relationships i mean what what we do is all relationships.

38:21It's all, we teach that a lot to the young people. You know, you can't do this from your bedroom. Get out, meet people. We're social animals. You know, business is people talking to one another. You know, I've done more deals in coffee shops and stuff over the years than I can count. But it's interaction, it's trust, and people trust us. And being recognised for that is really important. And I think that's really nice to be there. You know, that's a highlight. And to me, I get as much joy out of winning, say, the 40 or the 50 ,000 pound contract than signing, you know, the kind of the multimillion pound ones I'm a bit famous for winning over the years.

39:06They're all important to me. All our customers are important to me. And you want to do right by them. So it's good being back. I enjoy being back. And as I said, it's now we're coming into our fifth year. So we've been back a while. But it does seem in some ways it was like only yesterday we started again. Where's five years gone? I don't know. It's that cliche, nothing's an overnight success. You know, you've got to put the graft in. You've got to take the risks. You've got to deliver what you say you're going to deliver and build the trust, build the reputation, you know, and build the brand.

39:43you know i'm big into brand massive into that but and the brand and it is a cliche again but it's right brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room but you've got to build the brand so someone's got something to say about you in the first place you know they want to talk about you the awards help project the brand that you know massively you know and we will milk the award thank you very much because it helps us win business it helps to you know we're a company that's being run the right way we're going somewhere and look after people you trust us um we we will be there so that that's big so there's a lot of highlights there's a lot of highlights but it's i say it's like there's still stuff that we want to do we haven't finished and okay and again it's really cliche and everybody who knows this in the company as i say all our company meetings it still feels like we've only just got started yeah but those are some great highlights that you've had so far so kind of you've talked about the highlights the challenges that you faced and you've been a serial entrepreneur so what would you say are some of the key lessons that you've learned on the journey well number one i say this all the time there's podcasts with me on it look cash is king cash flow is everything become a cash flow cash flow ninja master of cash flow um understand it understand what it does to your business it's so important you you know you've got you've got responsibilities to your staff and and as you scale it's not just to your staff it's all the families as well so you cannot afford to get it wrong or screw it up cash flow is absolutely critical and understanding cash flow that that's the most important thing you can have the best ideas in the world but if you can't execute you're dead water so understand where you what you're trying to do how you're going to get there how you're going to fund it get creative really creative it's not necessarily about going out and raising money and it's it's how you can get creative how you get creative for your commercial deals um i i find when i sit down and explain perhaps why i need 10 up front and what i'm doing or i need to be paid within 14 days instead of 30 days okay predominantly it's public sector but people do understand that and and they they look to find ways to work with you so understanding cash flow is absolutely fundamental you know you You know, it's key from that.

42:28Second one is you're only really as good as the team of people that are around you. You know, really hire smartly. You've got to hire people that want to come on the journey with you and want to develop themselves and be part of it. And, you know, they've got to live and breathe it. I mean, especially when you're starting off, it's bloody hard work, you know. and you know it's it doesn't matter what title you have or what role you have basically everybody sells and everybody does everything you know that's and that's half the fun of it do you know what i mean is that you have to do everything you know from making the coffee to doing a sales pitch to ordering the pizzas to writing some code to setting up the next decks doing the recruiting it doesn't matter you you get involved in everything that is the fun of it do you know that that's right one of it you get to do marketing branding all of those things um i mean it's so much is there and you know you've you've really got to understand your numbers you've got to understand your numbers that's really important so getting the right team around you is really key and then i think you've got to understand the market you're setting into because at the end day if you haven't got customers you haven't got business so you really understand so you You know, take that thing about AI.

43:47There's a lot of people doing AI this, AI this. That's the wrong way. You don't set up an AI business, not in my view, right? What is the pain? What is the problem you are trying to solve? What's the need? That's the fundamental thing. So for us, when we came back is there was a lot of Oracle systems out there. They were very poorly supported. People put a big investment into it. it couldn't harness the new technology innovation that was coming along there was justice not just a gap that was to us there was a big hole in the market and we go right that's that's where we're going to play so we but we understood it we tested it we went and spoke to loads of our old customers as well as some of our new customers new customers and some people who didn't even choose us didn't want to work with us but we still spoke to them because you learn stuff so you know you're testing all the time, constant testing.

44:43And then you're refining, you're providing testing and things like that. So from that side of things. So I think they're the key things to me, advice from people is cash flow, building the right team around you and knowing your customer. To me, you said the cash flow is also know your numbers. You've got to know your numbers. You've got to do that. And they're the three things because they're the kind of building blocks if you think about it. So if you don't have one of those in place, you haven't got a business. You've got no customers, you haven't got a business. You haven't got a team, you've got no business.

45:16You've got no money funding it. You've got no business. So they're your foundation blocks. And look after, always focus on your fundamentals, your money, your people, your customers. If you focus on your fundamentals, despite all the craziness and all the stuff that's going on around there, focus on the fundamentals. you'll still be breathing you'll still be moving forward if you don't forget the fundamentals you're going to get into trouble pretty quick so that's my biggest advice to learn yeah great so I think that also leads well onto my final question of the podcast which is what do you think the future holds for yourself and DeNovo Solutions do you have any big plans that you can kind of talk about now I think so the biggest move that we've seen is again demand We obviously have spent many years building shared services, business centralised operations for HR payroll finances.

46:13And we've seen there is a need in specifically multi-academy trusts in that sector, the education sector, secondary education for payroll outsourcing services. So we can use the technology we implement and resell to supply that market. So, as I said, we're a group now. So we now have created, and it will come online next year, we've already got our first customer lined up, and fingers crossed we might have a second, but we've definitely got one, our payroll outsourcing services operation using Oracle Cloud and ServiceNow technology. So we can create that digital transformation experience and deliver value into a market that's underserved, is not being served well at the moment.

46:58And that also, once we've got the infrastructure set up, would potentially allow us to pivot, probably not next year, but the year after to maybe local government or to other markets that maybe need that service in time. I mean, that's further down the track. But at the moment, we're really focusing on building this up for the first client that we've got in the multi-academy trust, the secondary education sector. And that's a big play for us from there. As for me personally, keep doing it. I'm enjoying it. I enjoy being around the people that I work with, the customers. I'm having fun. I suppose that's your final lesson learned, I would say, is as long as you remember it's fun, it's hard work, but it's fun.

47:47And as soon as it's, you know, even on the days when perhaps it's not so fun, if it's constantly you're not enjoying it, perhaps it's not right for you and you need to stop because you kind of only live once so you need to enjoy it but at the moment I'm having an awful lot of fun and enjoying it and this still as I said still unfinished business so there's still going and and also you end on the cliche um I think we still only got we only just got started yeah well that's amazing and to round off is there anything you wanted to add or plug at the end of the podcast no no i think i think that's it anna but um thank you thank you so much for having me it's been really nice talking to you and i hope a lot of people see it yes thank you for coming on the podcast today it's been amazing speaking with you learning more about de novo solutions and once again congratulations on winning the most successful scale up at the hustle awards this year thank you very much anna perfect thank you bye if you like this episode be sure to subscribe to the podcast and check out startup magazine socials to stay up to date on the latest startups news