Banned by Meta, rejected by VCs: How two women built a sexual health empire | Farah Kabir, Co-Founder & CEO of HANX

0:00Welcome to Strategy and Tragedy, the top show for entrepreneurs. If this is your first time joining, then a very, very warm welcome. My name is Stephanie Melodia, the host of the show, and I'm so genuinely pleased to have you here. If you are tuning back in, then a very warm welcome. This is the show for you. If you are thinking of taking that leap into entrepreneurship, if you're a first time founder or scaling up your business. The reason why is because I am so proud to say that this show features the best of the best when it comes to my entrepreneurial guests. And today's is, of course, absolutely no exception.

0:34My guests share the realities, the highs, the lows, the strategies and tragedies of their business stories to help you shortcut your path to success. So a very big warm welcome. And before we get this show on the road, please, you know what to do. Hit that subscribe and follow button. Doesn't cost a thing. Takes two seconds and it really, really helps us out. Okay, so let me welcome my guest today. We have Farah Kabir is the CEO and co-founder of Hanks, which you might know as the first condom brand marketed to women. They have since evolved and expanded their products range to encompass a variety of sexual wellness and weight management products.

1:13Ultimately, Hanks is connecting the major life stages of women's health for a 100 ,000 strong community with Guyana designed sexual and reproductive health products. Now available in retailers such as Sainsbury's, Tesco and Boots. Farrah, welcome to Strategy and Tragedy. Hi, thank you for having me. So let's rewind the clocks to 2017. I read that you and your co-founder quit your jobs and you put your life savings into this business. So first of all, pat on the back for the balls for doing that. What gave you the conviction to quit the day job and put your life savings into Hanks? I mean, a healthy dose of naivety.

1:52Yeah, that always helps. Go a long way. Ignorance is bliss. We essentially spotted a gap in the market. So sexual health products that were currently available were garishly packaged, promoting a man's conquest. you know with products like johnny big boy and bright gold and red and equally as a woman you're baffled by the choice and it was around 2017 we found that dating apps were kicking off and actually there was there was such a need for sexual health products that women could actually control and carry um was this around the same time with bumble you just mentioned the dating apps and that's very kind of feminist and empowering as well right female founded yeah so was that part of that wave.

2:32Exactly. But the irony is, you know, a lot of people think that it's a man's job to carry condoms or, you know, women didn't feel empowered to do that. But with the rise of dating apps such as Bumble, where women are put first, we kind of had to follow that as well. And we found that the products on the market were just not speaking to women in mind. And actually, when we did the research, over 40 % of purchases of condoms in the UK made by women, but yet they've never been addressed. Was there a specific catalyst? Was there like a moment where you were maybe in boots looking at the shelves to spark it before then doing your research.

3:06Yeah, that's exactly it. I bumped into my boss when I was buying johnnies on my lunch break.

3:12I was in boots on my lunch break when I was working in finance and I popped out to do the usual, picking up whatever I needed for the week, including a boots meal deal, makeup wipes, whatever else, and condoms as well. And at the time I couldn't use hormonal birth control because the side effects just weren't working for me. So condoms were the only real option at the time, but the options out there were not great. I spotted my boss in the queue. I was absolutely mortified. I was hoping he hadn't seen this bright red pack in my hand. And I was also thinking, does he think I'm promiscuous? What am I getting up to on my lunch break?

3:48Does he think I'm getting up to hanky-panky? And I was explaining this awkward bumping to my friend Sarah. And at the time, she was working in gynae clinics, serving in sexual health clinics and she was seeing a rise of women coming into clinics with hard to treat irritations from the products that we're using or not carrying condoms and having STIs and we kind of had that brainwave moment then there's a huge opportunity here yet no one's tackled this in the UK or across Europe and we love a good challenge and when we when we did more research and digging we found there are a couple of great challenger plays in the US but no one quite here in Europe and so before we quit our day jobs we did some research and we calculated um if there's a real market out there so we surveyed over 2 000 women so friends network anyone that would that we could send our survey monkey to to find out exactly what women would want in a condom product so what's stopping them from buying products if they were to buy them what would they look feel like where would you buy them and the output was hanks so products that back to kind to the body and kind to the planet.

4:53Amazing. So let me just ask at this point in the story as well, these early days, did you want to be an entrepreneur? Or was this very much kind of an organic observation gap in the market? Yeah, the latter. I come from a family of entrepreneurs, but I was always quite happy being at another firm or making mistakes at someone else's firm. So there's, there's never a true desire to look for a business idea and go into entrepreneurship. so it's quite organic but so ironically yeah actually I was kind of half hoping that you would ask yeah that way because ironically I think it sets you up to be a better entrepreneur because I know so many entrepreneurs I lecture MBA students in entrepreneurship who want to start their businesses and all the rest of it and I know so many people who are still sucked into the allure of entrepreneur they want to be an entrepreneur and they're kind of like going in search of either a problem to solve or much worse they've got their own idea and they're trying to force it to happen so it's really interesting that you didn't have that entrepreneurial itch you genuinely recognized a gap in the market and this is super refreshing to hear because it's very rare to also hear about an entrepreneur who's done the research before launching yeah and even with this MBA program these are the things we talk like do your research validate it yeah and it's rare for that to actually happen in the real world but you did it well so how did you know to do that well it was such a big risk to take yeah to leave you know I was like in at Goldman Sachs Sarah was a gynae doctor so you know quite big careers to go from yeah banking to condoms and so it's quite a risky industry as well so we really had to understand what the market looked like and why no one had done this before and the piece that kept overriding was this is such a great challenge it really gave me this fire in my belly to to go up against the big dogs and actually build a market that's been so stale um so yeah I mean I think my experience in finance and working for someone else was super beneficial for this um so what did you take that was another question actually so what did you take from your career in finance that helped you in your entrepreneurial journey so many things I mean firstly interacting with customers retailers suppliers etc those are the same skill sets that you know you can bring across from working in corporate I'm an Excel monkey I love a good Excel spreadsheet and my previous role definitely taught me how to work an Excel spreadsheet and that's super important when you're building the business when you're fundraising you need to know your numbers inside out and I imagine obviously you and Sarah must be so complimentary at Ying and Yang co-founding team quick one so sorry to interrupt I'm sure that you are on the edge of your seat listening to this interview at least I hope so I'm so aware of all the other podcasts that are already out there so the fact that you've decided to tune in and listen to this one is not lost on me.

7:38If you can just go that one step further and hit that follow or subscribe button, doesn't cost a thing, takes two seconds. Now is your chance to do that. It means so much. Really appreciate your support. Thank you so much. Now let's get back to the interview. So you've found a gap in the market. You've done your research. You've got this amazing co-founder here as well. Did you require, well, you put your life savings in first, right? So you didn't need to go out and get funding initially. Yeah, well, we tried to get funding with the idea. And it was quite difficult to do that with just an idea.

8:09And the overwhelming response was that we need to see a physical product and we need to see this come to life. What year was this at the start? Yeah, this is when things were good. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I think, again, it is an industry that's not been that wasn't tapped into at the time. So people really wanted to see what the physical product looks like. And I think on reflection, a lot of investors want to see that you've got skin in the game. that you know you're not just raising money off an idea that you were also committed to it so that's why Sarah and I did that and we and we supported the first product launch and got that to market and it made it a bit easier for us to go out and get retailers and also speak to investors because we had something physical and tangible for them to look yeah makes a difference doesn't it so what were your first steps in like launching I presume you go and find a factory manufacture what were like your minimum order quantities you line up retailers like it was a It was a little bit of everything, to be honest.

9:04I think the key part for us was our initial feedback customers, 2 ,000 people that we surveyed. That was great for us because it kind of gave us a starting point for exactly what we wanted our branding to be, feel, tone of voice. It helped us understand what we wanted our products to look like. And most importantly, we could then go to a manufacturer and say, we want all of these components. You know, we want spermicide free, we want vegan where possible, yada, yada, yada. Can you do that? The reality is it was incredibly difficult to find a manufacturer to take us seriously because we were just two little girls in our eyes.

9:37Yeah, exactly. But we did eventually settle on a manufacturer who believed in our vision and mission and were willing to sort of take a punt on us as well. So it was a great partnership. And that's how we were able to get the first round. Yeah, amazing. Congratulations. And so let's sort of recap some of the highest highs and lowest lows in the Hanks journey because of the really obvious thing. I mean, even you saying like starting out even with this idea, let alone not having the physical products and the traction. But this is really new. And it's there's such a funny paradox in the world of venture capital where they're still investors at the end of the day.

10:15So there is only so much like risk that they're able to take you despite, you know, the term of like venture and backing like exciting new ideas. So let's touch on that. First of all, we're definitely going to talk about fundraising and especially as two female co-founders, yourself as a BAME co-founder as well. I know that you've spoken quite openly about that in the past. I know you've got lots of great stories there. But entering into such a regulated market, I imagine it was much harder than you expected. What were some of the biggest challenges now that you've kind of launched and getting it across the line?

10:48And how did you overcome those? I mean, there were so many challenges. the reality it's one thing having an idea and it's another thing bringing it to life and it requires having a trusted network and a community of supporters so I would speak about our idea to anyone that would listen to us I would go to as many events as possible and network and find the right people who you don't know who the right people are right until you get in the room tell people about your idea and they may say oh this is great I used to work in x and maybe I can help with y or I know someone that's interested in this space so you never know that definitely help but the reality is Sarah and I had to get stuck in on anything and everything in the business um and I think one thing I've realized is I was super impatient when we launched Hanks yeah I think going from an investment banking career to launch your own business and working with different types of people such as creatives you can't rush certain processes and I was super impatient I wanted everything done yesterday which I don't think is a bad thing especially as a co-founder like you need to create a sense of urgency right you need to like get the you know stoke the fire get things going and like just that speed of momentum as well this is one of the greatest strengths that startups have you can move quicker you can do things so yeah don't do yourself a disservice on that one thank you the team might say otherwise i usually play better off and give deadlines that are usually a couple of days before they need to be get it done keep moving so you've got to just get stuck in do you like the counterpoint to that is if you're sort of attending events and networking everything the counter side to that is of course like avoiding burnout in the process but I relate I did the same starting my last bit it was like saying yes because you don't know you're just kind of putting it out there yeah but you know okay you're excited initially so that energy definitely carries you but did any of those sort of like more personal struggles come up for you in terms of just managing your own energies and avoiding burnout yeah I'll be honest I'm still struggling to find the balance it's really hard and people make it look very easy and I wish people would be a bit more open about it I love being a founder and I thrive off the energy of building something that's exciting and mission driven and people can resonate with but the downside to that is all my energy is spent doing that that by the time I get home I'm so exhausted I don't want to look at anyone talk to me that makes perfect sense I get it I think being a founder is really tricky having that that life balance with work but at the same time hanks is part of my life yeah exactly i wouldn't change it i live and breathe the brand um but i think i would like to try and find more balance and i don't know the answer other than probably being a bit more regimented with my time and how much i do it's actually a really interesting topic to dive into a bit more because i feel like the consensus is like you know balance got to take care of yourself but i don't know i'm also kind of like there is an argument for like if this is what excites you what lights you up you're on a mission you've got like I don't know I'm like why lean into it it's not yeah negative I feel like there's such a like burnout's been such a dirty word over the past few years like it doesn't need to mean yeah you love it and it's positive I agree with that wholeheartedly but when you see physical and mental side effects that you're ignoring then you know the very exciting part is also having knock on impact on you and and you know I'm you know I can openly say I I have really bad insomnia and I think that is a probably a side effect of being an entrepreneur and working long hours and being very excitable and energetic I mean don't get me wrong working in finance definitely gave me a hint of that but you know I I'm mindful that there are triggers for me and certain times where insomnia is bad I put that down to work related stress but I think all entrepreneurs face face some parts of that whether it's insomnia or otherwise so I think it's important to recognize yes you can totally enjoy and love what you do and thrive from that but if you're seeing physical side effects then your body your body needs taken care of and so you know the little downtime that I do get people know I absolutely love a good spa no no that sounds fugey but I am a spa and that's my way of kind of switching off just finding a good spa zoning out a good book just i read your products in the spas not yet well the a couple of hotels so we are in sl manor and i've been dying to try out their spas i need to have there perfect excuse um r &d business trip great shout due diligence that's what surely it's surely going to the spa is actually a business expense you're taking care of yourself as the company's greatest asset that was actually really interesting reframe I want to show this as well with my last business especially as like women I know it's such a trope but like there's this reframe of thinking of yourself as the company's greatest asset and almost having a little bit of that disconnection that disassociation like if you were if your job were to look after the company's most important or one of the most important like assets how would you how would you structure their diary how would you meal prep for there yeah you know and sudden you're kind of like how would i take care of somebody else gosh yeah that's a really good point and it's just this kind of and then it doesn't feel like as i don't know selfish you're not putting yourself to the bottom of the par because it is a business priority almost like seeing it from that perspective so going to the spa is looking after the company's greatest asset plus you're doing a due diligence along the way yeah okay um what are you doing at the moment they used to just still figuring it out so you've got spa breaks anything else like self-care tips it's mainly trying to find time so small breaks spending time with people that i love um i have a lot of friends overseas i use that as an opportunity to get away and visit them so honestly just finding things that bring me joy and that can be as simple as having a day out with friends or going to spa or i've gotten into running recently i will say i've got i've got the running bug um although i can feel some injuries coming along like that's the impatient side of me just not stretching and going straight for it um brilliant all right yeah so I asked about some challenges before you did say like there have been many what was one of the biggest and most unexpected challenges especially in those kind of earlier days just how much censorship there is around this space yeah so you know when I launched Hanks I thought great we've got the product it's easy let's get it to market let's talk about it the reality is there's such censorship around the products often people see them as adult related products and you know even from from the perspective of investment when we tried to go for VC investment a lot of LPs that back VCs have clauses that say we won't invest in things like vice related products now because we were selling condoms they're seen as adult which is vice so we just didn't expect that but actually there was such a stigma attached to building these products especially in the UK right these British Yeah, well, Brits are prude.

17:48So it's, yeah, it made it, it did make quite so raising investment was very difficult for us. And that's something we didn't initially realise. And then there's other parts of censorship, which again, we didn't foresee. So a lot of our adverts used to get banned on Meta, on Google. Again, like in the early days, as a small team, we'd spend so much time figuring out why, you know, it'd be a standard bot that would say denied. and we would have to pivot and amend creative and change copy and see what sticks. And now we're in a better place because we have about eight years of learning behind it.

18:24But the reality is those things are so tough for a business to really grow and launch themselves. A hundred percent. And Meta Ad Suite is not the easiest to use whatsoever. So on the marketing front, what did you have to default to with getting like Meta Ads Band? What were some other channels? Because also you've kind of got constraints, create creativity, right? So I'm sure you know Cindy Gallop, for example, where like she leans massively into public speaking, because she can't advertise the same way. So did you have to try other creative marketing? Yeah, I mean, we've got an amazing marketing team.

18:57Emily, who leads our marketing efforts, is incredible. And everything she does from like the content to the actual ads and our social media. The reality is we lean in really well to our community. We listen to our community and they're our advocates, they're our early adopters and our influencers. So whenever we've had these issues, which I will say I personally in the early days felt a bit shy about talking about such issues. Now I'm much more vocal about it. So I will use things like LinkedIn to talk about such experiences. And often it will be our community that rallies together. You know, we had a big web platform that we will know very well, beginning with us.

19:35they were going to pull our facility to sell our products on our website with I think seven or 14 days notice which is not very long for a small company to find another web platform and build that and I put it on LinkedIn and it had an incredible amount of impressions that the most shared post I've ever done and it got in front of the CEO of that web hosting platform who said email me and we were able to have a conversation and talk about how difficult it is as a small women's health brand censorship around it so which wouldn't have happened without everyone getting rallied up yeah so i think the community is key here in this what was the reason sorry just to ask why they wanted to was it just because the nature of your product the product wow yeah what i'm kind of picking up on is the one of the like strongest foundations to have a highly engaged community having advocates like hanks is like a cult brand and in order for that to happen you've got to have like this strong mission this origin story people have to have like a you know a manifesto that they resonate with in all like i think it's just something that you can't shortcut you can't kind of leapfrog over that it sets up everything else force and it kind of 10x is all of your other kind of efforts around community social and everything else so is there any more you want to expand on in terms of like the mission the manifesto like that foundational step for hanks becoming such a cult brand yeah i mean thank you yeah that's such a lovely compliment i think when we launched hanks we wanted a brand that was real and relatable a brand that doesn't gloss over the realities of being a modern day woman um and all the products whether it was within sexual health intimate wellness menopause fertility they're all very traditional and stale and quite inaccessible.

21:25So we always wanted to make it a brand that was relatable. Almost like your best mate's big sister. Someone a bit cool, that knows a bit more, that you want to learn from. We don't want to make things clinical or like you're learning about sex ed in school. That's such a great personification. I love that. Your best friend's big sis. Yeah. I love that. And so we always use that as our North Star. Like how can we make our content and our tone of voice real and relatable? And I think that's definitely helped. It's so differentiated. Yeah. Through, doesn't it? And I think that's been the North Star for us.

21:55And I think then when we look, when we launched sexual health, we were so surprised at how many people were sliding into our DMs with their personal medical situations. We were very honoured, but equally we couldn't support them because we couldn't, you know, we weren't medically advised to do that. But it got us thinking, wow, if this is a talking for a first product, people are willing and open to talk about this. And the rest of women's health is so fragmented. There's such an opportunity here to connect the milestones of women's health. So perfect segue into your product expansion. So tell us about that.

22:27And again, I have to give you a pat on the back as well for again, sort of following a genuine market demand. Again, this is this is just such a common mistake I just see happen all the time with budding entrepreneurs, first time founders where it's like, they've got all these ideas. And I'm just like, your idea is worthless. Like the ideas are so overhyped and overvalued. overvalue if there isn't a market if nobody wants this you're the best idea in the world but this isn't going to be a business so this again is another proof point you're like people are proactively coming to you these things makes sense with sarah your co-founder so talk to us about that expansion from condoms initially yeah into this other range we really do follow the customer we we listen to our customers we find out what they want because they're ultimately our target There's no point in building a product if you think it's going to be really popular or you like it.

23:20You're not necessarily your customer. You need to listen to who your base are and what they actually want. And that's what we've followed throughout. So even when creating our products, we involve our customers with them. We have like focus groups where they come in and they try 24 concealed different products, a bit like Big Brother where they rip out the brand and they trial and see. And what we've found is organically, these products that we've built over time are due to customer need. So if you think about sexual health, condoms and lubricants, when women were coming off condom subscription, the main reasons were I broke up with my partner, fair enough.

23:56So I don't need them. Or I am moving on to long term hormonal contraceptives or I'm trying for a child. So great opportunity for us to build in those areas, too. And coincidentally, when COVID hit, we asked our consumer base, what do you need right now? And there was an overwhelming response around people not being able to get GP appointments. They were too scared to queue up at the pharmacy to get their approved prescriptions. So we use that as an opportunity to build an online pharmacy. And in 2021, we launched Hank's Fix. So we offer prescription birth control, Plan B, so the morning after pill, vaginal health treatments, all available online on our platform.

24:34Again, following the need of the customer, which lent itself really well. And then when you move on to the other area of our products, we found that we've got a couple of core audiences here. We've got 25 to 35 year olds are our core. And actually, within that, you have women who are looking at the next stage of their life. Are they planning for a child? Do they want to egg freeze? Fertility is a key area there. So we built supplements that are high-grade ingredients, known as chemicals, usual hanks, kind to the body, kind to the planet. We launched supplements for pregnancy and we launched supplements for menopause and for libido.

25:10So second audience of a menopausal audience, so 45 plus, which we organically built because we found a lot of the private gynees are recommending our lubricant because it's the most natural on the market. Side effect of menopause, dryness, loss of libido, etc. So really building products around our audiences, which has worked really well, which takes on to our final product, which is the weight management. And that was quite controversial. But for us, we found, again, it's about offering our customers choice. And this was a choice that we could make available on our pharmacy platform. Menopausal women can be insulin resistant, susceptible to weight gain.

25:47Again, if you're going through your fertility journey, you might be looking to get to a healthy weight. So again, it's really offering Hanks as a women's health platform that can serve you at whatever stage of your health. Exactly. I was just thinking that it makes perfect sense with even how you specifically phrased it with that description I mentioned, you know, in my intro with like those key life stages for women's, the different, you know, these huge life changing phases that we go through. We've sort of teased a bit around the fundraising. So I want to pick up on that topic again. You got the business kind of launched life savings.

26:21at which point in terms of traction milestones did you go out to fundraise you've already mentioned it was quite a challenge as well so i just want to double click into that whole piece fundraising felt like a full-time job to be honest yeah with two co-founders yeah split the roles at all yeah so i did i did the fundraising being the finance yeah i couldn't get away from it sadly um but also what's working against you yeah but yeah you've got these strengths in terms of your expertise, but you're also the BAME founder of the two. And so we know all the stats, we know how difficult it's unconscious or conscious bias.

26:58Sorry, I want to hear the rest of what you're going to say, but obviously I need to ask you about those other challenges for investors. Yeah, I'll be really honest, and this isn't me being arrogant, but I thought having experience in a name like Goldman Sachs and being a chartered accountant would make it quite easy for me to fundraise it's quite the opposite and I think there's this unholy trinity for us not only were we um creating products in the sexual health space which was seen as adult right we were in the consumer sector which is very difficult to fundraise for and then I'm also a female founder and a female founder of colour so we know the British business bank stats less than a penny of every pound of VC investment goes to women it's even less than a penny for a woman of colour yeah so you know I was really up against it and it was incredibly challenging in the early days but eventually we found our core audience actually being our investors so we were mainly backed by angels so individuals rather than institutions and a portion of those are our customers who have actually reached out to us and said want to be part of your journey are you looking to raise etc and in terms of your question about when did we choose well we needed to quite quickly in order to really market the product.

28:11So we did raise our first SEIS round early doors. And I wouldn't say it was a rolling close, but every couple of years we would do a small funding round to top up on that. What were some specific responses from investors that have stuck with you since those early days of fundraising? So many. In the early days, things like, what do you two little girls know about a male-dominated industry? They use that terminology. Yeah, we'd have, you know, what do you know, this is a male dominated industry, women don't buy condoms, women buy condoms, don't see a market for this. And some more pretty derogatory stuff.

28:52Does that fuel your fire even more to prove them wrong? Yeah, I love it. When someone tells me I can't do something, it makes me want to prove them wrong. Exactly, 100%. And I think also what it taught me, in the early days I was quite stuck on trying to convince people otherwise, now I just cut the cord. if there are behaviors like that like move on find someone out like we know who our investors should be yeah love that love that love that that's such a great mantra to apply to so many different areas as well like even in like sales that's been a huge like shift for me too i'm just like are you interested are you into it no yeah if there's a bit of that persuasion then fine like i'm not gonna do that but the amount of time and energy that you can waste on trying to convince persuade whether it is investors or customers so I love that that switch for you we talked about your well actually sorry sticking with the fundraise what kind of lessons can you share from that experience you said how difficult it was any other pearls of wisdom before we do move on on that find allies speak to as many people as you can about this try and you know there weren't many role models for me in the early days um but now there are more so I try and find other founders who've been in this space who have built businesses speak to as many people as you can what's the worst that they'll say no I'm too busy to help you that's fine yeah um it's a numbers game investment so um definitely speaking to as many people and also it's not a yes until it signs just be mindful you know you I've had many times where I've been super excited and I think something is a done deal and for one reason or another it's not quite landed where we'd hope so don't that kind of false security just be mindful yeah yeah it happens more often than you think like some of the other guests that I've had on here as well where they're like they line up you know talent they want to hire then at the very very last of the 11th hour it doesn't come through for whatever reason and you've been in months and months of due diligence it can still until the money's in the bank totally and that's the other thing it takes a very long time it takes a lot longer than you think how long did it take you and how many rounds have you done we've done about five rounds I think do they get easier they're like 10 they're different at different stages different lengths at different stages exactly we've obviously launched a range of products right so it's almost like launching a few new mini businesses every time yeah really got to prove those out as well right right what have been the key differences between like the five not each five but what's i guess from the first to the last what's kind of the biggest differences well i guess the stage of our business the tenure um does that make it easier it can make it easier but it can make it more difficult so it can make it easier because you're a recognizable brand yeah it can make it harder because they may expect bigger milestones from you or you know there's more historical data um it's really hard to pinpoint what the changes are because every single round we've done we've had a different element of our business to launch so like i said the pharmacy was a huge piece and then we've gone into supplements and weight management yeah pretty different each time yeah makes sense and just with you saying about you know getting out there it's a numbers game are there any specifics you can share in terms of like networks events do you rely on LinkedIn?

32:01Yeah I early doors would go to as many events as I could I'd sneak into events I was on that didn't do there's this one Bloomberg event where I knew there were going to be investors and I shouldn't have been there and I snuck in and said I was an investor and so really finding out where your potential investors could be things as simple as Twitter get to know them even if you can't get in front of them see what their interests are etc I would definitely encourage joining a co-working community if you can so we first joined huckle tree when we launched and they're like a family to us they're amazing because you're also around people that are like-minded that are also building businesses these co-working events uh spaces also host events it's an opportunity for you to meet other people and get into different ecosystems such as the investing landscape yeah um and yeah i don't always take a no as a no so you might meet someone who says oh it's not really for me but they might know someone who could be interested in what you're doing so it is exhausting but stick at it and you'll find your community.

33:01That's that optimism as well, isn't it? It's like you never know, like you might not get that investment from that particular person, but can they introduce you to somebody else? Is there some other sort of referral or something you never know? So I love that reminder. And I think also just to mention on the co-working space and surrounding yourself with those people, I think is so important just to give that a little bit of airtime as well, because especially if you're leaving your corporate job, where you said that you do come from a family with entrepreneurs, which is amazing. But if this is kind of a new world, you want to be surrounding yourself with people who's like your dreams is their normal and kind of helping to.

33:37And it's not this like big scary. It's like there are other people that are doing this that are on this path with you that helps psychologically to kind of get better about it. Totally. There'll be people going through the same thing as you. That's fundraising or building a new product. And, you know, it's important to lean on that. Yeah. Find people who are in the same ship as you. Yeah. Amazing. So we talked about some of the challenges, fundraising included. What are some kind of highs and like even lessons learned from those as well? We always say like the best lessons come from the biggest mistakes.

34:06But what are some of your biggest milestones that you are? Start with there. What are you proudest of? I mean, getting the first product to market was so difficult. You know, it's a medical device. Research, getting that over the line was huge. Just to see that first physical product was a huge moment for me. and I think more importantly seeing the condoms on shelf at boots in the very boots where I bumped into my box was a real hint I've got a picture and I'm sure there's a picture of me with it and I'm just so in awe like that was the very shelf where this idea that's correct again that's amazing isn't it I've had so many entrepreneurs one in particular comes around where it's like just that magic that yeah that excitement I don't know the right words to use like the happiness of like a thought of something and and here it is it's come for life especially physical product yeah and that's really like amazing that was amazing basically the hardship of getting on shelf so like we we've you know really had to work hard to get onto the shelf space because no one else had really disrupted that category and again a healthy dose of naivety you know when we did launch with boots we said yes we can do everything the reality is we were packing boxes in the warehouse ourselves yeah yeah like in trying to figure out how to wrap a palette for the first time within the dimension say yes and figure it out afterwards it's like i'm following sarah blakeley the founder of spanks on instagram and she's really up i don't know whether it's again the algo is like something but she seems to have really upped her game with her content and the amount of things she's been sharing a lot of those like early days behind the scenes and how she used to go into the department stores yeah and take her products and go and put them by the cashiers by the tills to make them more obvious like yeah real hustle yeah it is so cool um any tips on like getting products into boots for example like anyone who wants to get their products into a retailer find out who the key decision makers are do your linkedin stalking um not only the decision makers but the ones above them and really talk and live and breathe about the brand so we talk a lot about hanks on linkedin yeah that really helps um get out in front of the right people even if it's a no it's not quite a no so if they say not right now still keep them updated on what you're doing as a business so what are the new products you've launched etc kind of maybe update them quarterly or whenever it falls in line with their next rebuild um sharing insights that they want that will convince them to put you on shelf so it's not just about hey we're hanks we've launched this it's like we found our shoppers actually love buying in tesco convenience giving them an insight that they'll want insights yeah how close does selling into retailers compare to selling into investors sounds really good question similar but can be quicker on the retail side i think once you get the right person that understands the vision often we were lucky that there were female buyers so they got it um it can move quite quickly if you can fall in line with the the buying window nice um similar skill set though to investors you're selling and exactly yeah because even as you're saying like keeping them posted sharing these insights regular comms that's quite similar as well with like keeping those investors warm hey gang super quick interruption but i promise it's worth it i want to tell you really quickly about one day it's an 18 month mba program but get this you literally start and scale your business for real alongside it i am a mentor on the program if you've been following this show for a while then you may have picked up on the fact that i work there as well that's one of my other jobs and I absolutely love it I've been with the business now for two years probably a little bit more by the time you're listening to this and that's why I can say with utmost conviction from being on the inside track how good this program is so you've got the curriculum the content the learnings the resources the frameworks that add the structure to the chaos and the mess and give you that much needed direction how you can move the needle week on week on week and get closer to your entrepreneurial goals beyond the actual content and curriculum you've got one-to-one mentorship.

38:02So with myself, for example, and then best of all, I would argue the community. You get access to other entrepreneurs that are on the same journey that you are because entrepreneurship is tough. And so being surrounded by other people that are on the same journey, who can pick you up when you're down, it can also be helpful in terms of sharing other learnings, resources. Honestly, I cannot talk any more highly about this program. I'm going to drop the link in the show notes. Check it out if you're a first-time founder, if you're considering making that leap into entrepreneurship or maybe if you tried something before and it didn't quite work out you realized actually this whole entrepreneurship game is a lot harder than you expected one day is the place for you the frameworks the guidance the support both practically emotionally is just second to none so check it out let me know what you think now let's get back into the episode you mentioned like buying window is there anything practically that future entrepreneurs yeah to know whether is there like seasonality or yeah it depends on the category that your product is in so it might be quite different for food and drink it might be more regular but certainly within wellness there are usually two or three buying windows sometimes one so you know you can start speaking to a buyer in January but if their rebuild isn't until September that's great you've got time to build that relationship complete any of the operational stuff if you're speaking to them in September you've missed the boat so you might have to wait another year before Is that a typical time frame or are those just?

39:23It depends on the retailer. Often it's two, there's two times in the year when it can be rebuilt. But yeah, it depends on the retailer. Amazing. My penultimate question is, especially now as we're talking more about sort of the successes and the highlights, is how have you had to shift your mindset as you've gone from scrappy startup co-founder to now CEO of this cult brand? It's a good question. I mean I always feel like I need to get involved in everything and and do things scrappily but I think it's hard to let go it's it's it's not hard to let go I think I just have that lean startup mindset where I think oh it might be quicker and cheaper if I did but I think what I've learned is actually hiring people who are smarter than me so everyone on our team are incredibly talented at what they do way smarter than me and I couldn't do half the things that they do and that's been the key shift for me finding talent that can really help build the brand and help leading them and managing them in the right area any tips in talent attraction and team motivation that you can share as well gosh so talent attraction being authentic to what you do and i think that hopefully that's led quite well you know with hanks and our mission and what we want to do right um so we do get in bounds which i'm really humbled but i really love it when people reach out asking if there are all thanks motivation i mean we do have a channel called good news on sorry this tells you how many coffees i've had or lack of um and it's just amazing news in the week or things that we've we have um what else we have we have friday check-ins where we do random i mean i don't know whether you'd find this funny but it's basically random mind maps of our favorite things so for me it was a mind map of how the Kardashian family are related to the Hadids.

41:09The Hadid, as in like Zaha Hadid? No, not Zaha, as in Bella and... Oh, that's a link. Yes. You said in the mind map, aren't you? Yeah, I shall. So there's definitely ways that we all bond as a team. And then we do things like outings, et cetera. But we've got a hybrid working pattern. So sometimes we meet and sometimes we're offline. So it's really important to kind of build that morale, do funny non-work relationships. Yeah, keeping that positivity high. And I think if you've got it right in the first place, like it's almost like the 80-20 Pareto principle comes to mind for me as well. It's kind of like if you get that higher right, which we don't always and lots of, you know, tragedy shared on the show about that.

41:51But that's almost 80 % of kind of the way there. And then the Good News channel and the Friday Mind Maps, they're almost at 20 % to keep it. Yeah. And I think the other thing to add is being empathetic. people think often when you're a leader that you have to be serious and you have to be strong and you can't have that emotion but the reality is as a team we're a family like you know a couple of our team members have been with us for at least four years some of them we've known since day one and it's super important to be empathetic we're all family at the end of the day if there's something a personal struggle like we want to be there to support them.

42:23Farrah my traditional closing question on the show obviously called strategy and tragedy with the idea that again the best lessons come from the biggest mistakes what's one particular tragedy that's taught you an unforgettable lesson yeah um so when I was pitching in the early days I pitched to an investment consortium predominantly male um and really sadly one investor asked me if I could demonstrate how to put on a condom amongst other jokey you know misogynistic things and I just thought that was I was the only one pitching at the time I think I was the only the five companies I was the only female founded company the it was awkward uncomfortable dreadful and it was in the early days where it made me think oh my god if this is what I've got to face it is it even possible um so that was really difficult but he but I um how did you respond to that literally in the moment yeah I said I said would you ask your daughter that um and so good you had that well I think it was so shameful yeah like why you know um and it and it was so uncomfortable but it again like those early days I realized again it gave me the fire in my belly to prove people wrong and to actually find the right investors and to cut the cord so it was a bit of a tragedy but it also turned things around for me to realize there are investors out then it doesn't have to be him all that can love it i love it absolutely their loss and you wouldn't want to have people like that in your team on your cap table anyway but yeah far i'm so sorry you went through that so disgusting but it's also just like unfortunately at least before it has been sort of the price to pay but how much do you think things are changing how optimistic you feel about i do i do i think things are changing we're not quite there in terms of backing female founders I think there are lots of great reports but ultimately people need to put them anywhere their mouth is and actually that can be my founders but I think certainly from 2018 the things that I'd heard and seen I don't anymore um or I haven't in the last few years and honestly the reality is is that more and more success stories like these here are helping to you know you need that evidence you need the you saying before about like role models but also what I'm definitely seeing is other women paying it forwards yeah and you know there was a trend of like male allyship before and but really it's just taking my from my perspective it's just taken time for other women because it does take longer and it's so much harder to rise up those ranks to make their money to sell their businesses to then have the voice there yeah well to voice but also to angel invest and help others along the way you know mentioned even like bumble before and now yeah Whitney Wolf heard like so successful like paying it forwards and the list goes on and on but they never even existed before so yeah you're part of that trailblazing group Farrah thank you so much for coming on the show anything else that you want to kind of leave our listeners with any final parts of wisdom or yeah if you have an idea you know go with your gut instinct do your research you know it's calculated risk building a business it's not for the faint-hearted it's not glossy but it's a lot of fun if you get stuck into something that you truly believe in and especially if you've got a co-founder along the way to enjoy and ride with right that must make things so much better and an amazing team as well yeah yeah absolutely far thank you so much for coming on strategy and tragedy and thank you so much for listening as well really hope you've enjoyed this if you have give us a thumbs up again hit that follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening to this episodes are weekly so i hope to see you next time thank you so much Take care.