The Long Haul Leader: Why you *need* to prioritise rest, recovery and PLAY | Chris Ducker

0:00Welcome to Strategy and Tragedy, the UK's top 20 business show. hoping the next time you tune into this, I'll be able to say the top 10 business show. Thanks to you and your support. So before I dive in, I do want to take that moment of gratitude. I really appreciate you showing up here, clicking onto this episode. It means so much to me and I really hope to deliver every single time. So if you're tuning in for the very first time, this is the show for you. If you are an entrepreneur building, whether you're a first time founder or maybe you've got a few battle scars at this point, but the whole ethos of the show called Strategy and Tragedy is that often the best lessons come from the biggest mistakes or tragedies.

0:38And so that's what I want to bring here for you today, right? I'm bringing you these amazing guests, sharing their stories and crucially sharing the lessons learned so that you don't have to make the same mistakes. Now, of course, today's guest is no exception. I cannot wait to interview Chris Ducker. He is a leadership speaker, serial entrepreneur and bestselling author of The Long hall leader, rise of the youpreneur and virtual freedom. Known for his straight-talking yet inspiring style, he helps leaders build successful, sustainable careers without burnout, something that I think we can all learn from.

1:15Chris has founded and scaled multiple seven-figure businesses. I mentioned he's a serial entrepreneur and as a result mentored thousands of leaders and small business owners over a 20-plus year career. He definitely doesn't look it, he's got a good skincare routine. His work has been featured in major outlets, including Forbes, BBC, Entrepreneur, CBS, Inc and Success Magazine. And of course, most importantly now, Strategy and Tragedy. Chris. Oh, come on. Even I'm interested to what I'm going to say. This sounds great so far. This sounds amazing. Yeah. So my regular listeners will know that I usually close my interviews with the traditional closing question, which is one tragedy that's taught you an unforgettable lesson, hence the whole purpose of the show but with you we're going to put that up front and center and we're going to actually lead in that as the opening question so what's one tragedy that taught you an unforgettable lesson chris yeah i think you know the word tragedy is something that is different for everybody right so um for me it probably was more of a mistake more of a massive lesson learned um so in 2021 we'll remember we're in the middle of pandemic right we'll come just about to sort of start coming out of it.

2:27But we, as a family, we take a sabbatical every August, take the entire month off, go ahead and do our things and travel and have lots of fun and create memories and that kind of stuff. And I remember thinking to myself, I really need this one. Like I'm exhausted. I'm really, really tired. And I can't wait to get on this sabbatical. Now, to preface that, business was, I mean, we were crushing it because, you know, as Upeno is my company, it's the one company I still now own and operate. I've sold all the others. And what we do is we help expert authors publish, launch, market, sell their books and obviously build business frameworks and ecosystems around their, you know, around their IP and all that sort of fun stuff.

3:19So you can imagine when the pandemic hit, everyone was like, oh, I'm going to write my book. Oh, I'm going to market my book. Oh, I'm finally going to get around to relaunching my book or whatever the case may be. And so we had clients coming out of our ears. I mean, it created so many opportunities for us. So we were very, very, very busy. Now, it wasn't as if I wasn't enjoying the work because I was enjoying the work. There was just a lot of it. And so I went on this sabbatical expecting to come back feeling rather refreshed and, you know, raring to go again. Walked into my office first day back in September, turned on the computer, stared at the screen for 10 minutes, turned it back off and didn't walk back in for about another month.

4:03And I remember my wife saying, this is not you. There's something going on here. You know, you're sitting around the house a lot. You're not playing with the kids the way you usually do. You don't want to work. There's something going on. You need to go and see the doc and find out what's going on. And I remember retrospectively, right, you always look back and you say to yourself, well, how was I feeling in this moment or in this situation? And how I was feeling was by 11 o 'clock every day, I was done. I had no energy. Brain fog was kicking in. Fatigue was brutal. I wasn't sleeping properly, so on and so on and so on.

4:35Are we talking a.m. or p.m., just to clarify? A.m. Yeah, so by 11 a.m. By 11 a.m. I was basically done. And I went to the doctor, told her how I was feeling. We ran a whole bunch of tests. And about a week or so later, she called me back in and she sat me down and she said, you've got phase, you're in flat line for your adrenals. You're in phase three adrenal failure. Now, your adrenals, I'm not a doctor, right? So there's your disclaimer right there. but your adrenals they create cortisol which is your stress hormone and what it should happen is your adrenal your cortisol level should be very very high when you when you begin the day and slowly but surely they diminish and then melatonin kicks in which is your sleep hormone right so what was happening was i was waking up flatlined and i was flatlined the whole day hence no energy brain fog etc etc and so not only that but then i was also diagnosed with anxiety and depression as well.

5:35I was put on antidepressants for a year and a bit. Took myself off that after I started feeling better and all the rest of it, knowing full well they were just treating the symptoms, not the cause. And I'm happy to say now I'm out of the woods, everything's great and I've never been any better. But it was a massive, massive wake up call for me, that burnout. It was a huge wake up call because through all the success, all the money, all the joy of working with the right people and all that sort of stuff, if you don't have the energy to be able to lead in the right way, then what's the point? What are you doing?

6:12Right. And, and, and being successful, uh, if that comes at the detriment of your health, your relationships, how you feel about day to day life, then that's not success at all. Right. And so I went down this huge rabbit hole, like a lot of entrepreneurs do when they become interested in something, They read all the things and buy all the stuff and all that kind of stuff. And that's exactly what happens. And so I sit here now today with the sauna, the red light, the cold plunges, the supplements, draw blood every 90 days. I'm staying on top of all hormone levels, all that sort of stuff. And I feel bloody fantastic now.

6:53Amazing. But it was a massive wake up. If you're tuning into this right now, then first of all, a big heartfelt thank you. I really appreciate it. And secondly, there's a very high chance that you're on your own entrepreneurial journey right now. So whether you're a first time founder and you're figuring things out and you feel like you're on your own, or if you've done it before and realize that actually this whole entrepreneurship business is a lot easier said than done, then I might be able to help you. If you feel like you vibe with my energy and feel like you need some of that professional big sister direction, support and advice, then I'm opening up a few select spots for that one-to-one coaching, mentorship and growth strategy for ambitious founders.

7:32There's a link in the show notes. So check it out. And I would love to hear from you. All right, let's get back to the episode. It's been a real common theme with this show over the past couple of years, right? It's like none of it matters. Yeah, I'm not surprised. There's a reason, you know, your health is your wealth. You know, you have all these cliches. So a couple of things that stand out to me about your story. One is how you're doing like great work that you enjoy, great people. and so you can still have burnout even if things are going well right it's just so much you can still kind of be so severely exhausted and then the second thing is how burnout is so thrown around these days I'm sure you come across it all the time as well and what your story there is highlighted is actually the medical translation for you in your case of like how physiologically you were unable to work more than a couple of hours a day so I commend you on you know taking those steps and you know and sharing that with my listeners again right because even though it has been a common theme it still bears reiterating and so with that in mind my next question then is with these entrepreneurs listening it's a lot easier said than done right especially I mean in any phase you're at right whether you're just you've just taken that leap from your day job and you're going out into that void that's a stressful situation you don't know where your next pay slip is coming from whether you're further along and you've got investors and you're feeling the pressure or you've got board members whether it's coming from a validated external party or just yourself again easier said than done so what advice can you give my entrepreneurial listeners now that you've been through this transformative experience and what you now know yeah I mean I I think the biggest thing for me was, you know, I've been an entrepreneur for almost 25 years.

9:24Right. So I should know better. Right. Like I actually had a very small bout of burnout in 2010. I recovered very, very quickly. It was mostly just fatigue. I kind of got over it relatively quickly. But it actually came back to haunt me two years later when I ended up needing back surgery in my lower lumbar. I had an L5S1 spinal fusion, which basically what they do is remove one of the discs and they kind of put this little deposit, calcium deposit thing and they fuse the vertebrates together. And the reason why was because I was sat on a chair for 16 hours a day crushing my back. So, I mean, recovered from that and all that sort of good stuff.

10:01I think the biggest thing here is that most entrepreneurs, most leaders, period, actually, they feel guilty. Yeah, exactly. They feel guilty when they take time away from their responsibilities at work. And we shouldn't feel guilty. And so that aspect of self-care becomes paramount for any leader that wants to be around for a long time affecting the change that they want to affect in the world. Right. Plain and simple. And so the way I look at it now, and this is what I say to anybody that's, you know, wanted to build a successful career or a great business or whatever it is, like, think about self-care not as being selfish, but actually being a strategy.

10:48And I think if you can get that into your cranium as early on as possible in your growth journey, you'll become a lot more successful a lot earlier on. So what practical advice can you give someone listening to this in the moment, feeling guilty and myself? Right. So just a few days ago, I had a very lazy Sunday. I was wracked with guilt the whole time. I was just like, why? But why? Because there's so many things I need to do and should be doing. It's the classic like internal narratives. Yeah. So if I had you with me in my living room on Sunday where I'm just horizontal and I'm like, oh, I should be doing this, should be doing that.

11:26What would you tell me? I would say you're doing exactly what you should be doing. You're taking time for recovery. Because during the week, you're probably pretty full on. You're recording shows, you're speaking on stages, you're creating content, you're having calls, you're maybe being interviewed yourself. That's a pretty solid schedule. Most days, I would think during the week. The weekend should be the time where you completely unplug and decompress. I remember years ago, one of my very good friends and a mentor of mine, Michael Hyatt, who actually wrote the foreword for this book, he said to me that if the word recharge only is associated with your mobile phone, you've got big problems.

12:07Yeah. And I truly believe that. Yeah. I truly, truly believe that. And so, you know, my Sunday is, yes, a little bit of horizontal time on the sofa. Maybe I'll recline back in the lazy boy. nine times out of ten I'm going to have my eight year old daughter laying on top of me I will either be if I'm not at home recovering that way I'll be at a nature reserve bird watching I'm a big birder so or I'll be drawing or helping the kids with homework or whatever the case may be right like the recovery is absolutely paramount it really is and speaking from personal experience I think one of the worst things that you could do, and I'd love to obviously get your take on this, is half-heartedly doing both things, right?

12:53So when you're off, you're off. So that when you're on, you're on. So there's no good being horizontal on a Sunday and feeling guilty about it because then you're not really resting. And there's the seven different types of rest, right? Whether it is creative, spiritual, physical. And so if you've got that running through your brain, you're not really allowing yourself to fully recharge. recharge agreed so that you're not allowing yourself to be fully on when you are on i think linked to that is where do you draw the line because where is there a kind of again this is being me just more personal here now is my fear is the slippery slope and it's the same with money with rest is like oh but like this could get too comfortable this could get too good if i really like allow myself yeah so you mentioned like weekends for example are there any other like specific practices we can take inspiration oh yeah so so i have a no work friday rule okay nice not work to friday like for probably a decade now yeah wow um and what what fridays are for for me is extra time with my wife so we might do a movie in the morning after drop off at schools it could be a couples yoga session it could be actually just catching up on you know watching a tv show or reading a book or whatever the case may be so no work friday is the thing i appreciate maybe not everybody's in a position i was going to pull you up but i think what yeah and we also have we have a date night every thursday night as well that kind of kicks off the long weekend is our date night um we have uh an early year reset in april where we go away for three nights together.

14:35We have a late year reset at the beginning of October where we go away for three weeks together at three nights. Three weeks would be great. Three nights together. And then we have usually three family holidays as well. Now, whether you can do the Fridays off every, every, you know, week, or maybe it's half a day once every other week or something like that. The most important thing is that you're putting the recovery first. That's the key principle. it goes on the schedule and it becomes a non-negotiable so you don't have to kill yourself exactly like you deserve it right yeah so so many people say oh man i've had an insane month yeah i deserve this right now your spa day should have been on the bloody schedule at the beginning of the month regardless of what work you end up doing right and so i think i think that's the big thing is it's become a non-negotiable.

15:29Like for example, we have a company retreat every November, first week of November. We go away for two weeks. We only have a small team. So there's usually a couple of people in a room with me and then we'll buzz our VA team and everything in the Philippines. There's about five of them now via Zoom for half the day and things like that. We'll talk about what we wanna do in the upcoming year. Going into that meeting, Steph, all of my personal time off is on the calendar already. So my team knows when I'm available to work and when I'm not available to work. And if it's on that schedule, going into that meeting, it is a 100 % non-negotiable.

16:09It doesn't matter what it is. And I'm just a really big believer that when you say yes to something, you say no to something else in the exact same moment. So I say yes to my recovery time before I say yes to anything else. That's a big point to make, I think. Love that, so powerful. So obviously you are in a very privileged position now, thanks to your own bootstrap success. You're very much self-made, so very deserving of all of that. But you mentioned earlier, you've sold a few companies, you have had this business success. And so what advice could you give someone who is in the trenches for the first time, they're earlier on, maybe their only buffer is their own savings which even that would feel a bit kind of daunting scary to kind of dip into so i guess it's like what what advice can what practical advice can you give on self-care and prioritizing those fundamentals when you don't have the luxuries that you do yeah i mean and time is our most valuable commodity particularly as entrepreneurs right Because if we are bootstrapping our businesses like I've done, I've never borrowed a single dollar or pound from anyone.

17:19Any money I've made, I put back into the businesses in terms of expansion and scaling and things like that. So I get it wholeheartedly. I get it. The most important, I think, lesson that I've learned in that earlier stage is understanding that I can't be everything to everybody and nor can I be everywhere all the time. So it's about making as many informed decisions as I possibly could at whatever particular time I was at with whatever opportunities were coming my way. Because it's very easy when you start now, it's very, very easy to say yes to everything. Yeah, exactly. Like I did at the beginning.

17:58Yeah. I think I think pretty much everybody does if they bootstrapped. Right. Because they see everything as a genuine opportunity. Right. We know they're not genuine opportunities. Like any idiot can fill up their calendar full of stuff to do. But don't ever misinterpret that motion for momentum. There's a big difference between those two words. And so, yeah, you can look busy, but are you actually doing busy work for the sake of doing busy work? Or are you actually being very, very specific and strategic with the work that you're doing and the opportunities you're saying yes to? so I think the big lesson here is understand that you don't have to say yes to everything you should be able to call the shots a little bit more than you probably are I mean you left the job you started the thing to be your own boss not to have another job where you have to pay even more in taxes and costs and all the rest of it so I think that's a big one is understanding that you don't have to say yes to every single opportunity and what you remind me of there shout out to another great interview i think it may have been lotte white who talked around building a business not a prison and that's what comes to mind it's like you've left this for a reason right and it's like how many entrepreneurs fall into that trap of of trapping themselves into a business either they can't take holiday from they can't switch off from and so just a couple of things off the back of what you said there as well one is what comes to mind as well as the food analogy is between kind kind of a quick like sugar fix versus that more kind of nutritional kind of fruit and veg where you're just kind of like looking for that kind of sugar fix and that kind of busy work and feeling like you're in motion versus momentum so my follow-up question to that is I think a real a really uncomfortable truth for a lot of especially early stage entrepreneurs is that we may all be climbing ladders, but those ladders may not be resting up against the right walls.

20:00So how do we balance that kind of strategic thinking and trying to say yes to the right opportunities when, again, in the moment, you know, we don't have that benefit either of hindsight? What advice can we get from you on that? Well, I mean, everyone's going to have their own style of doing things, right? Working through whatever tasks they need to do every day. For me, what I have found to be and and it probably took me i think probably about five years to figure this one out um i do my creative work the kind of the more deep work first thing in the day because that's when i'm at my most kind of switched on i wasn't always like that back in 2021 but i am now so i don't exercise every day or anything like that i mean i i keep active i work out three four times a week and all that kind of stuff but like i'm not one of these guys that spends you know every morning in the gym for an hour and then he has his protein shake and all that it's not my style at all but i do make sure that i get up at the same time every day regardless of what time i've gone to bed and i've got much better on the sleep routine that was a major that was a major that's the number one fundamental yeah i mean we can talk about sleep all day long it's like my best friend now i'm here for it yeah yeah so um i think understanding that when you're when you're at your sharpest is when you should do your most important work and for me that's first thing in the morning so i don't check email i don't check social i don't do any of that sort of admin stuff um first up i'll go straight into deep work whether that's recording a podcast or shooting video or writing.

21:41You know, I write a weekly newsletter called Future Proof and all these other things. It's kind of like, that's my job. Like, that's the work before the work. That's the way I look at it. Because as a speaker, as you all know, before you get up on stage and perform that 45, 60-minute keynote, you've practiced that keynote at least 20 times probably, right, if not more. And so a lot of people say, oh, you know, you get paid X amount to do a 45-minute speech. I said, no, no, no. That's just - Tip of the iceberg. That's the conclusion of everything else that's happened prior to that. You get paid for all the work before the work.

22:14The unsexy stuff that people don't see in a hotel room with a little clicker that you bought on your laptop and going through your presentation in performance mode and all this kind of stuff. We've all done it. So do the important stuff first and then get to the real to-do list, so to speak. I think the common theme of all of this is managing the guilt internally. Like, I love that you're sharing some real practical tips here. But it's like, as I'm listening to you, how both I'm reacting and imagining my listeners here like, oh, OK, but like, can I really and do I need permission? If you do need permission, you've got it from us here.

22:49Here's your permission slip. I'm writing it out right now. It's not only permissible, but strongly recommended. And actually, that, again, is the other flip, isn't it? It's not, yeah, you're allowed to take a break, to recharge, to draw, to watch a fun movie, to prioritize your deep work first thing in the morning and not get back to someone on email straight away. Not only are you recommending, like it's a non-negotiable. It's to your point on putting that rest first. So all this links to your book here, which I really appreciate you bringing it in today, The Long Haul Leader. You mentioned before about this rest.

23:27And this has been autographed now, Steph. This is one of a times. I should just show this. It's been autographed, right? So if I find this on eBay, you and me are going to have a problem. What's going to happen is this episode is going to go viral. You're going to get more famous. That's going to increase the value of this book that's now been autographed. No, I love it. And I love the title so much as well. And what I'm linking it to is a little soundbite you said earlier, which was how recharging is a strategy. It's not just self-care and being selfish. it is a strategy because you need that resilience to keep going and you're not going to be resilient by just holding on so before I do dive into this this is my bedtime reading can you expand on that through the lens of your great book right here when I started writing the book I followed the exact same process as I did with my last two books or my first two books so virtual freedom 2014 was all about how to build a team of virtual assistants to help you run sport and grow your business.

24:24Well, I'd been doing that for seven or eight years before I wrote the book. So I just wrote about what I had experienced. Rise of the Youpreneur 2018 was out about how to market and monetize your expertise as a personal brand. Well, I've been doing that for over a decade at that point. So I just wrote about what I knew. This was different. I went into the book thinking I was going to do exactly the same that I'd done prior, but actually working with the publisher and an amazing developmental editor. She drew so many extra stories out of me and got me to do so much more research for this book than I've ever done before for any of my other books.

25:00I feel like now this is something that will hopefully truly stand the test of time because not only is it that precautionary tale of burnout and recovery and strategies to avoid and recover and all that kind of stuff, but also I think more importantly, it is a permission slip. It's a permission slip to understand that we have got to the point in society where burnout is being shown to people as a badge of honor and it is not it is a warning it is a true warning that you are doing things wrong you shouldn't have to burn out to have relationships fail to you know go bankrupt to end up in hospital you shouldn't have to do that in order to become successful right and i'm just going to jump in here really quick because i'm not sure if you saw this viral post about a swedish employee his response to his new american boss right so it was a bit of these i'm loving this already yeah yeah you can already kind of tell how this is going there's this culture clash and i think it was this company that had recently got acquired by this bigger american company and so american north american you know you've got a bit more of this kind of hustle culture yeah Yeah.

26:10And this boss, I'm not going to get this like word for word, but this this American boss was like kind of half reprimanding this Swedish employee for not showing as much like dedication as his colleagues. and his response was kind of along the lines you were saying which was like in this part of the world like if you don't finish your work by the before the days ended you like either haven't done a good job or you're milk or you can't manage your time effectively or you're milking it or it's just that presentism and you're just showing like in japan right you've got that like yeah napping at your desk to like show that like how hard you're working so really interesting all culture around the world but it was such uh it was such an effective clap back basically and it just speaks what you're saying there which is it's not this badge of honor like you staying behind late to work you working like all hours being in the office killing yourself yeah is just like that that it's that it's a it's a signal of something not working yeah i mean you know a simple way of looking at it is show me your calendar and i'll show you your priorities yeah exactly right yeah Show me what's on your schedule and I'll show you what's really important to you.

27:26So if recovery and downtime is important to you, it should be on your schedule. If it doesn't get scheduled, it won't get done. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's where a lot of people go wrong is they try and jam their schedules with as much as they can to feel like they've done a lot of work and they've been busy. You know, you call your friend up that you've not spoken to for a while and say, oh, so busy. It's kind of like, oh, I'm so awesome. I've got so much to do. No, you know, I want to be able to call up my friend and say, hey, honestly, I'm feeling a bit lazy right now. I haven't done anything.

27:59I've watched all of British Bake Off. I've killed two box sets in the last 36 hours, you know, or whatever it is. And I really feel like that has, you know, society has led us to believe, like I said, that burnout has become a badge of honor. You wear it kind of on your sleeves with the stripes that you've earned. And I don't believe that should. and you know can be the case like there's another way of doing it exactly the tides are turning and again it's just pointing to the system that like it's just it's just not working well i'll tell you where i think it started right i think it started with the advent of the blackberry because all of a sudden if you're in a corporate job you would nine times out of ten you would end at 5 p.m.

28:44Okay. I thought you were going to talk about the fruit. No, not those blackberries. I'm like, locked in. You've got my interest. What the history of the blackberry. This could be a great analogy for business, isn't it? I'm like, okay. But what I mean is that before, you know, 10 to 5, you'd be packing up your stuff. Yeah, exactly. You'd be out the door. Exactly. You'd get on the train. You'd be home and you'd have your dinner. Yeah. Flunk in front of the TV and that would be it. Then the blackberry came along, right? And you'd be on the train, you know, replying to emails. Exactly. And then maybe it might buzz when you're sitting down watching a film after dinner.

29:17Oh, no, this is the boss. I better get back to him kind of thing. And what happened was that work-life balance, I truly believe that that was the end of work-life balance as we kind of knew it before. And so now I don't look at it as work-life balance. I actually look at it as just priorities. And like I said, show me your schedule. I'll show you my priorities. Yeah. It's all about boundaries, right? And boundaries aren't boundaries until you implement them. So it's like you're saying on your company retreat where you're like, this is the time I've blocked out for my holiday. And whether it's leaving the office, disconnecting, recharging, it's if you're letting one seep into another.

29:53Here's another kind of mental reframe to help anyone kind of get over that guilt is you're actually doing a disservice to the other one. And so, again, flipping the script on do you want to be more effective? Do you want to be a better leader? Do you want to be producing more creative work? You're going to have to play around. You're going to have to mess about, be creative. Watch inspirational films that you enjoy. The other night I watched cartoons. I loved it. What cartoon did you watch? Disney. Disney cartoons. You and my wife will get on great. I've lost care. If I had a hundred bucks every time I've seen my wife actually sit on the sofa, open up Disney Plus and select an actual cartoon film to watch on her own with the children i'd be a very very comfortable man financially stick it with this for a hot second because what's also interesting is a friend shared with me research on how much cartoons can relax you so it's one of the but if you have to watch tv you know if you're not going to sit back and read a book and stuff you're going to watch tv before going to bed cartoons is the best thing because it's like colorful and the shapes and the point there the research is irrelevant the point is actually how I needed that scientific research to feel better about watching the cartoons right do you know what I mean where it's like I can't just enjoy it for what it is right and just embrace the childhood nostalgia I also went to art school and I was going to be an animator in a different life so like I've definitely got that like artistic appreciation but it's like I needed to have that kind of research sure to make me feel better about it it's interesting you say that that kind of yesteryear like going back into yesteryear and reliving certain things that you remember when you were kids right like that retro kind of style i um over christmas i uh paid for and downloaded all of the night rider tv show from the 80s i love that show such a great show and i watched it it's not aged well unfortunately it's not aged well but i watched i can't remember how many episodes it was now it was a lot over the kind of like christmas new year and kind of going into the early part of this month and i remember saying to myself like it took me back to like the living room when i was a kid at home with my mom and my dad it took me back to school when we used to talk about um the car you know and all that kind and and i think that you know if we're at a point in our life where we can't just hit the pause button for a little bit and enjoy looking back on the memories that we've created we're doing things wrong doing something wrong yeah we really are and this case really listens are like wait where's steph and chris got off to on this like cartoons and nostalgic tv but the point we're making here is well at least for me anyway is like we do need to be embracing just things that make us happy because even again for somebody like me very much like type a and still very ambitious and everything else is like even if you need to think of it as feeding in to the long haul strategy to be able to like withstand to to operate long term you're gonna have to have fun along the way couldn't agree more how else are you going to and and we talk in the book we talk about i say we because it was definitely a team effort had a great editorial team helping me put this book together amazing and we we actually at first there's a there's a four-step framework i believe it's on page 37 i want to see if i know my own book i love that let's see if he gets the exact page right god i hope it is right now flips through the book oh one page out page 38 um but so there's a there's a four-step framework we call it the long haul leader life OS or operating system.

33:44So the premise of this was that, you know, your computer or your phone has an operating system. It needs to get updated, needs to recalibrate itself, you know, speed up from time to time and slow down from time to time. Like why doesn't our life have that as a leader? Right. And so we started off with just three parts of this framework. There's four, but we started off with just three. The first one was the impactful work that we do as leaders. The second one was personal mastery. So the things we do to level up ourselves, right? And then the third one was love and relationships. That was always going to be in there because it's such an important part of our lives in general.

34:22But through the research that we did, this is going to come out of left field now, but through the research that we did, there was one particular subject that kept coming up over and over and over again. The people I interview for the book, the case studies, the research, everything. And it was hobbies and pastimes. I didn't see it coming. I didn't think it was that important. It popped up first time, you know, two or three times. I was like, oh, okay, cool. That's a cool hobby. That's, you know. But then also through my own recovery of burnout, I started two new hobbies. One of them was bird watching.

34:58So being out in nature. If the sun is shining, I'm going to find time in my day to go out for an hour. non-negotiable for me right it was piddling down with rain i'm what my wife would call a fair weather birder i stay indoors and watch youtube videos on burning instead right but like so so bird watching became something and photography became something i got interested in and then the other one was bonsai so i'm a bonsai practitioner as well the little baby trees um and so what i realized and it's all backed up this is not pie in the sky stuff but what i realized with hobbies was that when i'm looking at a bonsai tree and where i'm staring at a bird and I'm trying to idea it or the tree's there and I'm saying, do I cut that branch off or not?

35:40Or do I wire it up and bend it into a slightly different position to make the tree look different? When I'm looking at that branch, I'm not thinking about anything but the branch. There's no business, there's no deals, there's no negotiating, no contracts, no opportunities or leads following up that pop into my head. It is the branch because if I cut the branch off, I can't stick it back on again. So it's important in the moment, I'm 100 % all in on that. And that's what we found with every productive, successful leader. They all have hobbies. And we actually dive deep. I believe it was a Forbes survey.

36:18Don't quote me too much on that. It might be slightly different, but it was definitely a survey that was done through C-suite executives and entrepreneurs in the United States that said that by engaging in their hobbies for a minimum of two hours a week, just two hours in the entire week, their productivity at work went up by up to 30 percent so somebody says oh well there's never enough hours in the day to get everything i need done i say go and get a hobby because you can be a lot more productive than you probably are so that was a huge takeaway yes right yeah what i take away from that as well is almost like exercising your brain as the whole we talk about this a lot right like mental health and you know you've got to exercise different parts but you know again if we use a real physical analogy just to really kind of you know draw it home is you don't go to the gym.