Why Netflix Took a £14m Bet on Live Sports Podcasts

0:05Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Streamtime Sports. I'm your host, Nick Meacham, CEO at SportsPro. Now, when I do these types of podcasts, I always find it a little bit weird, a little bit funny, because this podcast is going to be about the business of podcasting. And there couldn't be a better organization to be talking about profiling right now than Goalhanger, who has really come to the fore, particularly with the rest of his football from a sporting lens, but has so many different titles, launched a number of new initiatives, which I think is going to be really interesting for people to understand and get a better grip of where sports media and indeed the podcasting world is heading.

0:45So today I'm being joined by the CFO of Goalhanger, Andy Hodgson, who's getting a little bit of insight into the business and some of the numbers and everything behind it. So welcome, Andy, to the show. Thanks so much, Nick. Lovely to be here. Very excited to talk to you. Now, obviously, you'll be joining us in person at the Sports Pro Investment Summit next month on the 21st of July, but we thought we'd take a bit of time, particularly given a lot of the coverage around goal hanger and wrestling football, given the World Cups on at the moment, and talk a little bit about the business and dig into things there.

1:17But for those that aren't familiar really with the breadth and scale of goal hanger, set the scene for us uh what is the company and how big is it today yeah sure i'm very happy to yeah as you say lots and lots going on at the moment a really exciting place to be gold hanger so um yeah we are we are a modern media company uh really at the forefront of what i think of as where the whole media industry is headed in terms of video uh podcasts as i traditionally thought about so in terms of scale we've got 15 shows now you mentioned football uh our other real flagships are history so the rest is history is our biggest global podcast we also do the rest is politics the rest is entertainment the rest is science a particular favorite of mine that's really growing super fast um and across those 15 shows uh there's 85 of us or so in our offices down here in kennington just by the oval um producing that entire slate of content with our uh with our fantastic talent so it's really exciting um and that business has grown super rapidly so from the rest is history starting four years ago or so now to grow to that slate of 15 shows by the time we've commercialized that properly we're currently running last year i think it got announced in the in the times we won an award for that we can maybe come back to that um 37 million 37 million in revenue uh somewhere around there um and we're broadly doubling year over year so real great uh yeah serious scale but also serious momentum which is super exciting and so you've joined six months ago you've come from both the the tech background uh you were even at uber before now coming into what some would say is a traditional media ecosystem but is obviously going through a lot of disruption how have you found the transition going from that world into this is it actually quite similar or is it is it a whole new world for you yeah it's that's been really interesting so this is indeed as you say my first foray into media but um i guess the experience i've had over the last 10 years has been doing a number of real high growth businesses um and certainly my my theory coming in which i think has definitely been proved proved out has been that actually that stage of growth and the challenges that you face through a stage of growth are actually far more consistent than necessary in an industry I mean, the challenges that Goalhanger faces as a fast-growing, doubling business of around 85 people look significantly closer to the challenges I've seen a few times now in various tech scale-ups of a similar size than it does to a mega monolithic old media beast.

3:32So to that extent, I think that my experience is transitioning across nicely and is hopefully helpful because I see the media industry is really going through a fascinating period of transition. It sure is. I'm hopefully going to lead it. It sure is. And I think one of the most interesting things I've seen happen in particularly the podcasting space around sports, and we talk a lot about this on the Streamtime Sports podcast, where we talk about the fact that there's so much built around the live sporting experience. But actually, if you put live sports aside, there's just as much, if not more, going on outside the live sporting experience, which is really driving sports fandom.

4:07Podcasting and content, particularly with some of the talent you have on your books, are some of the ones really driving that, particularly in markets like the UK, but indeed globally. So talk, and obviously I'll talk about the model in a second that you're running on, but the most, I guess the most surprising thing that had happened to me last week, which is a bit random, this is the most surprising thing, was in the build-up to the World Cup, I got a notification on my phone and it said, starting in an hour's time, rested football on Netflix going live. That sort of caught me by surprise because I didn't realize when I knew the deal was done between Netflix and rest is football, that it was going to be live every day.

4:47It was going to be being served on devices and pushed at a really interesting time. I think it was my morning here, but obviously in the evening in the US. Just talk to us about the genesis of that deal. Do you feel like it's also a one-off opportunity that has come up and you've been opportunistic and been able to take advantage of that? Just talk us through some of the aspects of that one. Yeah, sure. hugely exciting deal and i'm pleased you've been watching that's really good a number of people have we got the number one show on netflix last week i have to say it's a bit weird having them drinking a glass of wine on the set while i'm having my breakfast but nevertheless it still works i hear you but no hats off to the production crew out there actually i mean what those guys are doing is amazing because the games you know they finish it's often they're finishing at two three o 'clock in the morning our time and then they're getting a live show together to go out at 6 a.m uk time they are they're certainly working for their money out there but um no a fantastic deal for us a fantastic opportunity i think things just came together nicely right in that netflix were really looking to start to move into uh what podcasting more generally but specifically around live events uh and the world cup was just a perfect amalgamation of those two things um and we were uh you know we found sort of meeting of minds i guess in terms of how that could work for both us and them uh for us being able to put more production value into the offering in the show around the world cup which we were excited about already but to be able to do it in the way that we are with our live TV levels of production and a studio in Times Square.

6:11It's fantastic for everyone involved. So it works very well for both sides. And we're really enjoying that collaboration at the moment. It's getting some real success and cut through on Netflix. And then the real success from my perspective actually has been on our socials. And we obviously check our socials very regularly and keep a close eye on that. It's a really important funnel for our podcast. And the social explosion around the rest of football on Netflix with that higher production value coming through to clips has been super impressive to see. I don't know if it's made its way to your algorithms, but certainly that's where I've been.

6:40I've been getting endless forwards from all my friends with clips from the rest of this football, which is lovely. It definitely has been. And I was actually remarking the other day to someone yesterday as we're recording this, that I missed completely that the NBA draft was happening with all the World Cup coverage. And rest is football was definitely one of the things popping up on my feed quite a lot in lieu of what used to be one of the events that I would constantly get a lot of content on because I do follow the American sports quite closely. The deal itself is obviously an interesting one for a multitude of reasons, not just for you personally, but also the company, but also the industry as well, seeing Netflix go into both regular live shows and leaning into the podcast genre more closely.

7:23Reports are there's values. The value of the deal is around 14 million pounds, which is what's being covered in different mediums. Not sure how close to the mark that number is, But outside of the deal that's being agreed and the acquisition of content from Netflix in that transactional sense that they normally have, do you see it having further impact to the P &L? Not just the visibility and the awareness, but are you able to extract more value out of it directly and or indirectly from a long tail of that extra visibility? Yeah, look, it's really interesting. I mean, definitely, you know, we will make some money on the rest of the football over the World Cup, which is fantastic.

8:00but the real value for us isn't exactly what you're talking about. It's that it's both the expanded reach and awareness of wrestling football itself and then the broader goal hanger ecosystem that we're pushing because we are finding new fans and finding new audiences on Netflix, which is great. And we're really hopeful we can transition them effectively back to the pod when it goes back to its traditional homes post-World Cup. But that in itself is hugely valuable to us. And then beyond that, I just think it's a really exciting new test case and learning for both us and Netflix, to be honest, as to how this stuff can work.

8:33We faced other questions about if you don't have rights and clips and highlights associated with it, can it really work? I think that's unambiguously being proven that it can in this context. The conversation is really landing. And we're really hopeful that therefore we can continue to work together and experiment in some different ways, both hopefully with some further football content in the future with Netflix and beyond. So do you feel like this is really a starting point both for yourselves uh but also perhaps for for others to lean into this type of um well particularly for someone like netflix to lean into this type of genre going on and you feel like this will be not just a a one-off world cup opportunity but something you may be in talks with about potentially extending through across other leagues and competitions we're certainly hopeful yeah i think it's definitely early signs are just working well for both sides so we're certainly keen to continue to push in in the sports uh direction but equally i mean netflix i think very sensibly from them strategically can see the value of podcasts they're looking to bring more podcasts outside of sports onto their platform and we're hopeful that we can do some more stuff there as well so there's a few different um podcast shows and others that exist in the market i'm curious to get your view on this that obviously they get the opportunity to enhance their distribution outside of the traditional mediums of spotify and and all your records are podcast podcast channels and of course YouTube and with the video attached to that comes as well.

9:55Just what's your view on the value from getting that extra visibility through other distribution means? If you weren't getting, say, that ride trip, would you still think that you could drive enough value from the marketing visibility and audience generating you would have on other platforms if you weren't having an exclusive deal to, say, have a non-exclusive and have this in multitudes of channels would you be able to turn that into direct returns or do you really need that bank bankroll so to speak and that exclusivity to really make it justifiable for you on the p &l yeah really interesting so it's a really interesting balance so our netflix uh deal for the rest is football for example but it's only video exclusive on netflix uh so our audio show is still going out on traditional channels the only difference is whereas we were previously posting episodes on on youtube uh for the period of the world cup those are exclusive to netflix And it's a really interesting question.

10:46I mean, strategically, we fundamentally believe in meeting your audience where they are. And we want to have as broad a distribution as possible. We don't want to have to force our audiences onto platforms they would not naturally go on. We want to meet them on the platforms that they choose. So it takes a lot for those economics to stack up in that context, to move away from that position of broad distribution. In this instance, with Netflix, we felt that the tradeoff was worthwhile, and especially for the learnings that we're getting and the experimenting that both sides are getting, valuable.

11:16In the future, who knows how that'll play out. I remain a big advocate for that broad distribution. That's certainly what we're aiming for with any type of deals we do. We're not overly keen on constraining ourselves down and limiting distribution, but we will always, of course, entertain and look at opportunities. I mean, Netflix has got a fairly solid distribution channel behind it. So I think out of anyone, you're in a pretty good hands there for extra visibility but let's talk a little bit more about the commercial uh strategy and approach there um typically from what most can see around this type of business and podcast businesses generally there's normally the traditional revenues come from advertising and maybe sponsored podcasts and so forth there's also that you you have launched through most of your major titles some sort of subscription proposition that's available for for sort of top tier fans.

12:07Just talk us through that commercial approach and what's driving the most value for you. Yeah, absolutely right. And one thing I love actually about coming in to the media industry and this specific niche of the media industry coming from the tech world, it's got a real interesting balance of how those revenue streams play out and something, a lot of that very similar to what I've seen before with that recurring revenue dynamic of subscriptions, which I think is super valuable. But exactly, to answer your question, advertising is our core and advertising remains the largest revenue stream so that really is how we monetize what i think of as casual fans um we then uh as fans get deeper into our universe we offer them various tiers of subscription where they can get deeper so at a basic level you can pay a small monthly fee to start to get ad-free listening early access to content then you can get deeper to get further bonus content more ancillary uh opportunities to interact with the hosts and live events uh around that and we've have one of the great things that i really love about the gold hanger content is it's yeah it's intelligent long-form conversation and that really draws people in and draws people into these subjects and these hosts and from my perspective i think we've had remarkable success at successfully transitioning listeners and audience more broadly into those membership clubs and into that recurring subscription revenue from my perspective is the really exciting and the most valuable part of the entire revenue stack um and yeah i mean i think we announced a few months ago we've now across what five clubs, I think, in total across the various pods.

13:30Over a quarter of a million members signed up paying an either monthly or annual fee, which is awesome, with bold ambitions to get even bigger than that in the future. So that model with that layering on the subscription on top, obviously it's very synonymous with the media industry in different platforms and so forth. Have you got that across? Is the model pretty much rinse and repeat across all the different titles, or have you only trialed it with certain products and why we've done so? Yeah, so we're still working through. I think definitely our ambition is that every pod we launch has that potential to have both advertising revenue and a subscription stream to it as well.

14:08I think that's definitely where we want to try and get to. Purely through... We really want to do justice to the clubs though. When we put a club proposition out there and a membership proposition out there, we want it to be a fantastic fan experience. And just simply from a resource perspective, getting through every club is taking us some time. But we started with the History Club and the politics club our largest two pods and they are still you know the big growth engines but also now we have a rapidly growing club around a couple of our smaller pods the rest is entertainment which has been growing very quickly the rest is classified a fantastic under under discussed one of the gold hanger stable has a fantastically loyal and deep fan club to it as well as some of our other history shows we have ways and empire both also have fan clubs attached to them and look we want to get more fan clubs i am the rest is science i mentioned earlier is our fastest growing pod.

14:55We really want to have a science club before too long. And that definitely is very much the ambition in the model. We just have to work our way through launching all these things in a gold-hanger style. What goes into one of these shows? So in terms of the resource you're putting behind it, there's obviously the talent aspect that we all see delivered on screen. But whether it be the investment that you're putting into any given show and the resources behind it to deliver what is being delivered, Can you talk us through a bit how you look at that? Yeah, sure. Yeah, I mean, again, I think it's a fascinating moment for the media industry, actually, because what we're able to do with the podcast medium is strip a significant amount of that cost that would traditionally be brought in a production like this out.

15:37So the unit economics of podcasts, I just think, is so powerful in that you're getting, yeah, sure, the production values are not TV, but you're getting a good 80 % plus of the value for what in reality is probably 10 % of the cost. and that kind of arbitrage and unit economics is what I certainly really like from my seat but in terms of what goes into that 10 % cost yeah it's a fantastic team and we're hugely lucky here to have a really talented group of young and hungry producers who really drive these things so we have production staff which depending on the size of the pod and the complexity can vary from some pods run by a single producer up to a small team often to include researchers to really back up the talent and really provide the topics we then have an awesome team as well of video editors and social editors who are both making sure that the show works only in the audio format but also really optimizing the video format which has been really important to us and then clipped up and distributed effectively on socials which we still see as the key driver for awareness and bringing people into our world.

16:39So that's it you bring up an interesting topic there which I think is one of these conundrums that we're seeing right across the industry and across media and sports is that clipping economy and clipping the use of those short forms, obviously you get huge engagement, particularly through a lot of the different titles. And I guess, how are you, ultimately, are you seeing that as a funnel to the main channels? And you talked about advertising being the main revenue driver for you currently. But are you able to drive direct revenue, enough value out of that visibility? And so what is that? Is it many programmatic revenue coming from those platforms?

17:17And what sort of scale are you talking about relative to that whole flywheel of revenue, is it? Yeah, sure. So first of all, the team will be sick of me badgering on this. I think we're undercooking what's possible there at the moment. I think the whole ecosystem around social monetization is evolving rapidly. And I think there's a lot more we can do there, first of all. So I expect it to grow. For us, it is the first answer. But look, no, in terms of how we're doing it, yeah, it is primarily at the moment, relatively simplistic, programmatic advertising on the platforms you know so we get a check from instagram and i check from youtube and these things flood in directly proportional to the amount of views and the attention that we're getting on their platform and that doesn't that those checks in and of themselves pretty much pay for our social team um which is awesome so just on a even on that basis without thinking about the uh the additional benefits uh it does wash its face however we are increasingly over investing beyond that because of exactly the point you make that we see it as far more than and a revenue generator in and of its own right, we see it as a critical part of the funnel for awareness and attention coming into our pods.

18:19So we actively want to invest in that in order to grow the shows. Because ultimately, the bigger we can grow the shows, the more we can monetize them in the long form, which at least for the time being, is where the better sort of revenue density, as I think about it, really is. Especially if you can get people right through, not just consuming the long form, but into your membership clubs and really engaging with the entire universe. Do you see that there's any other revenue streams that maybe aren't so mature at the moment that would be areas that you could continue to grow to try and help continue to fuel the growth?

18:50Yeah, for sure. I think we've often dabbled in live events in the past. And I think in some ways, they're almost the ultimate expression at the end of that fan journey. And we're looking more and more at how we can do more innovative types of live events to really bring people together. Because one thing that we really see and like about our membership clubs and our fan clubs, especially in the modern digital age, people really want to have that connection and that an opportunity to really get together and collaborate outside of just the screen so we really want to try those and we think there's some real interesting dynamics there.

19:22The other area where we are really looking to expand and have invested in is in our written propositions so a number of our clubs now also have increasingly high quality newsletters attached to them and some really fantastic journalism going on under the hood there well worth checking out, have a look at the politics newsletters the history newsletters, all free to sign up for fantastic stuff. But I think that's also really interesting. At the moment, we're putting that out there purely as an added benefit as part of the membership club. But in time, I think there's some really interesting models coming out now with independent journalism.

19:54I look at what some of the more creators at the forefront are doing on Substack and how they're monetizing their work. I think there's some really interesting revenue streams. Again, it'll probably be ad-based, but revenue streams related to our written content, which I can see coming down the track, and I'm hopeful can play a major role in our growth in the future as well. So let's take a step back now and talk about the model you are running. From what I understand, it's a very talent-based initiative for each and every title you have in the ecosystem. Just talk us through what the model is that you are bringing in that talent to operate in.

20:25Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I mean, the talent for everything for us. These are such personality-driven, talent-driven shows. The Goldhanger model is generally a conversation between two experts and the chemistry between those experts and what they bring really is the foundation to the whole show. So we couldn't do anything without the talent. And we run the business on that basis in that effectively the way that we run these pods looks a little bit like a joint venture between us and the talent, effectively with a profit share at the end of it. So we do all we can as Goldhanger to commercialize and monetize the property and we bring our expertise and commercial skills to do that most effectively.

21:02And we work with the talent to grow the show such that we can really maximize that. we then keep our costs as low and as efficient as possible and all the profit that we make in the pod goes into a pot and there's a profit split between us and the talent so it really is a direct uh yeah a really direct monetization for them as well um and what they put in they really get back those incentives are really nicely aligned and we found that a really important and valuable part of the model which so far has worked very well to grow now a lot of success to to talk about and celebrate have there been any i mean you've we've been in the company six months from now, but have there been any hurdles or challenges you guys have had to overcome, whether it be in the model or things you've learned for perhaps podcasts that haven't done so well that have really helped shape your direction today?

21:49Yeah, really interesting question. As I say, I think a lot of the challenges I've absorbed secondhand from the stories of what the guys have been through the last few years. But no, look, not every pod has been a smash hit for Goldhanger. We have had a few, you know, a few smaller shows that have failed to really get off. We've had to rein back on a couple of shows. But on the whole, we've been incredibly lucky. So I think the challenges from my perspective, I guess twofold. One, there's all the usual challenges of handling a scaling business and maturing and growing that fast. That in and of itself, from a business process perspective, is always challenging.

22:22I mean, how that shows up in my world in finance, how you build the effective processes in place to enable and get the business to really harm and work effectively without overburdening them with bureaucracy, getting that balance right and navigating that is always a challenge i think for any growing business certainly for us um then more broadly than that i think the from a sort of sector perspective the thing that's been really interesting for us i feel we've done a good job of it uh is the shift to video um it's really interesting in these podcasts even today right i know we're recording and this will go out as well as visual as well as as well as on audio and that's critical now i think um the entire industry has very clearly moved in that direction and we had to really well again before my time in many ways but the the team really had to upskill and jump on that really quickly um and really led the industry i think actually and how they were so definitive about every pod uh every show being video and moving away from that thinking of of it being a solely audio product i mean we remain very focused in our product that it has to be it has to work as an audio product um but it does not have to be definitively audio first now and how they made that transition.

23:27I'm in awe of what the guys did there. So, I mean, it's an interesting question, right? Because obviously one of the things I hear a lot about video-led content, especially, is the economics around it. And I still a work in progress, let's say, particularly on platforms like YouTube. Are you seeing that really ramp up, particularly on those platforms? Or is it much about the visibility and almost personality building of the profiles of the individuals? and also so you can turn that content into the clips that you use to market and promote? Or are you seeing the economics now being strong enough where it's a needle mover for you?

24:03Yeah, a little bit of both. There's no doubt it's well known across the industry. The ability to monetize on YouTube is not as great at the moment as our traditional channels. And we're still working through that, working out how we can get more monetization out of that particular channel. But it's the fastest growing. I don't think it all comes as a surprise that that's our fastest growing channel for finding new audiences and for growing the shows. I mean, YouTube used to be sort of, even not long before I started, it was a single digits percentage of our total audience, whereas now it's rapidly approaching 25, 30%.

24:36So that growth, we're seeing growth across all channels, which is lovely, but we are seeing outsized growth across YouTube as a platform and a channel, which is really exciting. So although, yeah, your under-monetization is, again, that revenue density idea. It's not quite there to the same extent as YouTube at the moment. we're working hard to fix that with our friends and partners at youtube and i think that we're definitely making some headway which is great because i still i think it's only going to continue in that direction i think video is more important um and i think that that's where the audiences are and ultimately you follow the audiences first and then you figure out the monetization later um i want to move on to gold hangar ventures which i think is a really interesting um new layer to the business but just quickly on the advertising because if you talk about being where the audiences are and you said advertising is one of the major revenue drivers for you just give us a sense of what roughly that dynamic looks like between the programmatic side and the more tailored sponsored content direct advertising deals because it seems to me from what i hear from other people in this space that programmatic does a job and does drive a good chunk of revenue when you've got the scale there but if you really want to get needle moving uh impact revenue wise you have to do those deals internally can oh sorry internally direct with brands how are you seeing that yeah completely you're spot on that so absolutely programmatic does lay a foundation for us and is a base but the majority of our ad revenue and what we're really focused in on or we've built an entire internal team around is selling those direct brand partnerships and because especially in the podcast medium it's this it's so powerful when you have the advocacy of a trusted host it works so effectively for brands we've got some fantastic case studies of how that's really moved the needle for a number of our partners and that's really what our entire our internal sales focus is on.

26:15It's about delivering those brand partnerships for the benefit of both sides and really maximizing them. So we go all in on those. How have you seen that from coming in outside the media industry? I'm always a bit fascinated how people see that because for me, it feels a little bit still very old school in the process that goes behind doing those types of partnerships. How have you seen that coming in? Has it been a surprise or is it actually more, I guess, scientific these days than perhaps what it's made out of e in certain instances no i think it's i think it's relatively scientific i mean you know we really look to try and build long-term partnerships uh and again i've done a number of different tech roles over the last 10 years but there's definitely they don't look that different from b2b sass type contracts and dynamics about how the real value is in properly understanding your partner working out how you can create real real win scenarios and working with them effectively to deliver the best proposition and the best value that you can So, you know, I know guys do a great job of going out and making connections across the UK and increasingly global industry with both agencies and with BrandsDirect.

27:18And we've got some really exciting partners that we're working with. So the final question on this is just what typically is the, what are they buying in terms of the delivery you're giving them? Is it typically just brand visibility within the pods themselves? Or are you having to do certain other things that are typically that are driving up the value of those deals? Yeah, hats off to our commercial team. They're really pushing the boundaries on this and doing some really cool innovative stuff, I think. So it's absolutely broader than simply the visibility on the pods. So every media plan varies.

27:53But the ones at the cutting edge of what the guys are delivering at the moment are really integrated, holistic plans of it. So not only do you get the host reads and the overt awareness push on the pod itself, increasingly there's tie-ins to socials. There's bespoke social segments that are going out specifically where the hosts are putting brands together. Increasingly for some of our big brands, we're actually doing live sort of internal corporate events with our talent. I think a couple of our, well, I won't get the details, but yes, the other week, a couple of our talent went off to the HQ of one of our big major global brands and did a whole internal piece there, which went down really well.

28:30I think provided great value for both sides. So yeah, there's a lot more that goes into it now than simply a host read in the mid-roll of a show. No doubt. So let's talk a little bit about the Goldhanger Ventures, basically an accelerator you guys have launched. Talk a bit about why you've done that and what's the hope and the outcome from it? Yeah, for sure. So yeah, something close to my heart. I haven't spent the last decade in venture-backed businesses. Suddenly find myself with the ability to be a VC. How exciting. but no like it's it's trying to do a couple of things for us really one i mean we really want to give back to the ecosystem and we think that the ecosystem has been great for us and the more we can help and more we can invest the better we can build this whole new innovative edge around podcasting uh so yeah we really want to be a part of that but more specifically and tactically for us i guess what we're really looking for is we want to find that next generation of creators and our both our accelerator program and to some extent the goal hang adventures that we're doing at this stage both tie into this.

29:26It's about finding where that young talent coming through, doing innovative things on the edge of what's possible are and really helping and supporting them to grow them. You know, with either in their own right, hopefully they may be able to come into the goal hanger stable more tightly in due course. But things that are in, what we've been really looking at is investments in creators who are very much aligned with where our proposition is at the moment, where our core subjects are, and really encouraging them and helping them to come through. And yeah, hopefully we can give them a lot in terms of a leg up and the support and the lessons learned.

29:59But equally, they're teaching us a lot in terms of what they're doing and how they're thinking about things at that cutting edge. So that's very much one side of it. The other thing that we are doing with GoHanger Ventures, which is interesting, which we haven't really publicly announced yet, but we're beginning to spin up with our first few deals, is we are also using that as a mechanism to do media for equity deals. So for young up and coming brands, consumer brands who wouldn't necessarily have the cash on hand to grow awareness and advertise on podcasts, if they are interested in us coming on and taking a small equity stake in their business in exchange for that media plan, we're actively looking at those.

30:39and we have our first couple of deals coming through now, which is super exciting. So a way for us to, well, from my perspective at least, to use our inventory as efficiently as possible and to really support the broader ecosystem and maximize the value that we can create from the inventory that we have. So outside of the equity style relationships, what else are they getting? Obviously you've got expertise in-house and support you can give from a how to get going with these types of things and how to potentially get them up and running with expertise and whatnot. What else are they getting? Is there a financial element or is it basically the sweat equity side that you're bringing to the table?

31:13What's the mix there? Yeah, there's two flavors. So there's a subtle difference. Our accelerator program, which is not equity based there, we're giving us primarily come into the office and have a mentor and that really practical support. And then for slightly more established brands, the first one we've done there, the best example of this is a YouTube business, created business around economics called Invisible Hand. There we've actually put cash in for an equity stake. So they get all the benefits of not only coming in and being able to gather the expertise and the mentorship, they also now are plumbed into our commercial network.