How Worker Co-ops Work

14:45Chuck Bryant:Oh, I've heard that one.

14:46Josh Clark:That one really stings.

14:48Chuck Bryant:Yeah, it does. Especially when they're talking about your work. Yeah, exactly. Well, at any rate, yes, the Calkers did come up with that, I believe. That's right. To support your initial statement.

15:01Josh Clark:Yeah. Things got going on a larger scale after that when farmers started banding together, and in this case, post-Civil War, black farmers were excluded from the Southern Farmers Alliance, and they formed the Colored Farmers National Alliance and Cooperative Society, which had a million members or more by 1891. And this wasn't sort of a strict, you know, definition of a co-op. It was more like, hey, we're all farmers, so let's all sort of just cooperate with one another and share information and, you know, lift each other up. Yeah.

15:36Chuck Bryant:And because they were dealing with the Jim Crow South, post-Civil War South and all of that, they were basically faced with an option, like just submit yourself to like really bad treatment or figure out how to come together. You don't have to know about co-ops throughout history to come up with your own co-op. It's actually like a general idea that any group would stumble upon, typically when they're being mistreated or when they don't have the resources to improve their lives. They realize like, well, wait a minute, we're in the same boat. Let's just put our resources together and improve our lives that way together.

16:12Yeah.

16:13Josh Clark:And this this was like this is spreading as a philosophy more so than like all these like concrete examples of like literal co-ops that would come a little bit later. But one of those other sort of ideas that was spreading mixed in with this was something called labor republicanism. And that was just, you know, aligning with this sort of the idea that, hey, you know, if you want real freedom, then you need to be able to control your work and not just be a wage laborer. Right.

16:42Chuck Bryant:You own that work. That's what I was talking about earlier. You own that work. You lease it out as you see fit. You're not submitting yourself to wage slavery. Like, that's what that's all about. And apparently there's a debate going on still today between labor republicanism and just universal basic income, which one is actually the way to actual freedom from being dominated by some boss.

17:03Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. It's also tied into, you know, the rise of unions and unionism for sure, don't you think?

17:09Chuck Bryant:Yeah, there's the Knights of Labor, which was basically the first massive union in the United States that came close to a million members by the 1880s. Their whole thing was essentially setting up worker cooperatives, like creating an economy in the United States based around co-ops, collectives, things like labor, republicanism. That's exactly what they were about. And they were pretty successful to an extent. I think we can see today that they weren't actually successful at all. And instead, they were supplanted by a much more business friendly union, the American Federation of Labor, which became even more massive.

17:52Josh Clark:Yeah. And that was less like, hey, let's, you know, get rid of these bosses and make a co-op. And it was like, let's try and find a way to work with them.

18:00Chuck Bryant:Right.

18:00Josh Clark:And, you know, in true union style, like get fair pay and all that kind of stuff, which is great. Yeah. But just sort of strayed from that co-op idea a little bit more. And I think in 1895 was when finally the International Cooperative Alliance was formed. Sure. And that was, you know, these are, this is like a worldwide organization, obviously international.

18:25Chuck Bryant:Sure. What if they were just based in Topeka with no connections outside of Topeka? But they're shooting for the sky.

18:33Josh Clark:Yeah, that'd be fun.

18:34Chuck Bryant:You want to take a break?

18:36Josh Clark:Yeah, we'll take a break and we'll talk a little bit just sort of how these things work right after this.

18:53Josh Clark:Go on. Get a little out there. into the big heart of Nevada, where you can go off-road and off the map, on two lakes or on horseback. Dip into hot springs and dive into deserts. Climb a mountain or make your best effort. See thousands of stars in some of the darkest skies. Stake out haunted hotels. Can you make it to sunrise? There's always something new to see because we've got plenty of space to just be. Plan your trip at TravelNevada.com. Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi-asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto, and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI.

19:37Josh Clark:It all starts with your prompt, from renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20 % year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast.

20:09Josh Clark:Paid for by Public Investing. Brokered services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures.

20:23Chuck Bryant:sink into affordable luxury anabay is the only machine washable sofa inside and out with stain

20:30Josh Clark:resistant slip covers and a cloud-like frame duvet everything goes right in the wash plus the

20:35Chuck Bryant:modular design lets you change the look of your space anytime visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home shop up to 60 off site-wide with sofas starting at just 699 and a 30-day money-back

21:01Josh Clark:All right, we're back to talk. This is Libby, I think, and she called this section nuts and bolts because that's exactly what it is. Sure. Sure. These are all sort of listed under the Rochdale Principles of Cooperation, which the ICA, the International Cooperative Alliance, adopted in 1995. And it's a series of bullet points, basically, of generally how co-ops can work. But like I said, they all have their own nuances. But the first one is probably true across all cases. You have a membership that is voluntary and anyone can join as long as they fit the bill. Like you can't discriminate.

21:44Chuck Bryant:Yeah, there are some slight differences among co-ops that as these bullet points start to spread out, that one seems to be like that's the that's a common a universality, you know? Yeah. There's also another one. They need to be run democratically with one vote per member. Mm hmm. There's another way to do it that some co-ops choose where the more shares you have, the more votes you have. So one share equals one vote rather than one worker equals one vote. So one worker can amass 10 shares and they'll have 10 votes opposed to the other workers who just have one share each.

22:19Josh Clark:For sure. And that capital that you have is also controlled democratically and should serve the organization's goals and not just, you know, the CEO or whatever. Right.

22:31Chuck Bryant:Like if you're if you're honey makers, you wouldn't want to use your profits to invest in like an up and coming bee extermination outfit. It doesn't make sense. Yeah. You also want to be autonomous. I love this one, too. Like it doesn't matter who you sign a contract with, whether it's a government contract or with another business, a corporate vulture. Who cares? There's nothing in that contract that can basically undermine any of this. The workers' democratic voice, the sharing of profits, it being open to all, nothing can undermine that. And I love that one because they're autonomous. They're like, we don't need you.

23:09Josh Clark:Yeah, that's great. Another thing that you have to do is you've got to train up your folks, got to coach them up so they can all be contributors. And then, you know, another part of that is just letting people know what's going on, that you're not some weird fringe group. but educate the people on what sort of the benefits of cooperative work.

23:29Chuck Bryant:Right. And then they're like, all co-ops smell like this.

23:34Josh Clark:Yeah.

23:35Chuck Bryant:And then you want to work with other cooperatives. That's a big one, too. I mean, supporting one another, because even in societies where they really support co-ops, they still have the decks stacked against them. So the more they can rely on other co-ops on each other, the better off each co-op is going to be, you know?

23:55Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And they always give back to the community, it seems like. You know, that's part of getting the word out is doing like good work in the community. And so people see like, oh, this is that co-op that's doing, you know, the park cleanup or, you know, anything sort of like that. And here's the deal. You know, we said there's a lot of different ways you can structure these. Not, you know, if you see there's a co-op, it doesn't mean every single person that's working there that day is a member owner because a lot of times you have to kind of prove you're in it for the long haul, like there's a probationary period.

24:29Josh Clark:Sometimes you have to buy into it financially, but not always. And also sometimes you're either buying in financially and or being voted in by existing members.

24:42Chuck Bryant:Yes, by BIF. That's right.

24:46Josh Clark:And sort of the final thing is how it works, the structure. at the top because, you know, even though it's a co-op, you still need to have kind of people near the top in charge of the higher, you know, upper management sort of decisions, especially if they're, you know, larger co-ops. Because, you know, you can have some smaller co-ops that are a little more like, you know, probably like Seven Onda where you have workers that are voting directly on just about everything that happens with a co-op. But the bigger you get, the more you might see a structure where those workers aren't voting on everything directly, but they're They're electing some of their own to sort of act as the executive branch or maybe who, like, you know, go out and hire leadership staff or form a board or something like that.

25:31Josh Clark:But they're voting on the people that do that. And, you know, ideally, and I think usually in most cases, they're bringing in the people that are going to want to serve the co-op well. It's not like all of a sudden they're like, oh, no, we got this board in there that's now taking over and changing it to a more capitalist structure.

25:47Chuck Bryant:Right. Right. We're going to bring in a young hot shot fresh out of a private equity firm to take over.

25:52Josh Clark:Not a good idea.

25:54Chuck Bryant:And again, it's like some co-ops face easier goes of it depending on the country you're in. And depending even on the state, it can be easier than others. If you're in the Pacific Northwest, you can turn to the Northwest Cooperative Development Center and Cooperative Fund of the Northeast. It just keeps going. And they'll essentially tell you how to convert your business into a co-op, which you can do if you have an existing business, how to start a co-op from scratch, all the ins and outs, that kind of thing. And again, this is highly necessary to have somebody who has expertise and understanding on how to navigate co-op operations in the United States or in other countries, too.

26:36Josh Clark:Co-op ops. Yeah, so, you know, there are definitely some efforts in the United States to assist people that have these ideas. It's just not as robust as like in other countries. And speaking of other countries, I know we talked about Spain early on, and that is the home of the largest and most prominent co-op in the world, basically, which is the, I'm going to say Mondragon. That's what I would say, too. Not the Mondragon, even though that's way cooler sounding.

27:05Chuck Bryant:It is, and that's how I want to put it, too.

27:08Josh Clark:Yeah, but the Mondragon Corporation is a collective. Again, this is one of those, it's a bunch of co-ops that got together to make a larger co-op in the Basque region of Spain, and it's named for the town of Mondragon.

27:20Chuck Bryant:Yes, and it was founded by Jose Maria Rizmond de Arrieta. That is quite a name.

27:27Josh Clark:Nice.

27:27Chuck Bryant:Believe me, I know. He is a priest, or he was a priest, who actually started out as a journalist writing against the fascists, against the Franco regime in the Spanish Civil War in the 30s. After the war, he became a priest, and he was assigned to the town of Mondragon in 1941. And he said, hey, Mondragon, we are going to go capital S word all the way in this town.

27:57Josh Clark:Yeah, he, you know, doing good stuff like, hey, let's create a medical clinic. Let's get some housing going for these people. What about technical schools and education to like lift everybody up? And in 1956, there were five workers who had been part of this, you know, plan with them. And they created a cooperative company to make kerosene heaters. That's how they got their start. The biggest one in the world started out making kerosene heaters initially.

28:27Chuck Bryant:Yeah, for sure. And then it just started to grow from there. They created their own pension and health care systems. Essentially, every time the town faced a problem, they needed something like funding for a new co-op. Right. And they couldn't get it from the outside world. They just did it themselves. So each new problem, each new obstacle saw a co-op founded to address it. And it just kept growing and growing from there. And eventually, it became the Mondragon Corporation, which is enormous. It employs something like 80 ,000 people today. Yeah. Yeah. And it's made up of, again, like you said, 95 different co-ops coming together as a co-op themselves.

29:11Josh Clark:Yeah. And how it works for them, they are one of the ones that has one of those probationary periods before you can become a member. And once you've done that, you are a shareholder. You are a worker and a shareholder in that company. And you're voting on, you know, all the stuff it takes to run a corporation, business strategies, what kind of money people make. Everyone gets an equal vote. They do have a governing council in that one because, you know, it's a big unwieldy one. So they need sort of a higher up council. There's a managing director and they sort of act as like a CEO. But, and this is super awesome and kind of one of the keys, is the highest paid person there.

29:55Josh Clark:They have like a wage cap basically for what you would call a CEO. And the highest paid wage earner can be paid no more than six times the salary of the lowest paid. If you look at a regular capitalist American corporation, that number is about 350 to one rather than six to one.

30:13Chuck Bryant:Yeah, it's pretty impressive. They also share the co-ops profits, the member owners, and they have to make difficult choices. This is something that co-ops are good at. Like this is this is why co-ops are pro worker. Like if there's a hard time, an economic downturn or something like that, and sales are down, profits are down, most capitalist companies just lay people off. They ramp up a lot of workers in fat times, and then they just cut them in lean times. Co-ops don't tend to do that. Instead, they tend to all agree to take a pay cut to spread the pain around so that no one person has to take the brunt of it or no one group of people have to take the brunt of it and lose their job.

30:58Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And they've had to change things a little bit over the years. That ratio, I think, that I said was 6 to 1. That's an increase. It used to be a 3 to 1 ratio of the highest paid to the lowest paid worker. So they've had to roll with the times a little bit. But 6 to 1 is still way different than 350 to 1.

31:19Chuck Bryant:For sure. So this is far and away the largest. The second largest is nothing to sneeze at either. The Uralungal Labor Contract Cooperative Society, founded in Kerala, India, has about 18 ,000 employees. And it was founded back in 1925 while the Brits were still ruling India as a colony. And some of the workers from the lower castes, I think 16 of them, got together to pool their money and said, hey, we're going to start repairing roads, government, give us some contracts. And that's where the whole thing started.

31:56Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. The first prime minister of India, Nehru, was basically very much into the idea of these workers' co-ops and farmers' co-ops. And, you know, did a lot to encourage and incentivize these popping up over there. I think there are a ton of Indian cooperatives, and this is just the biggest one, at like 18 ,000 employees. Right. Yeah?

32:22Chuck Bryant:Yeah. Nehru also encouraged people to rethink their jackets.

32:26Josh Clark:Oh, man. Those are good looking. I can't get away with those, but those are cool.

32:31Chuck Bryant:Well, OK, so that's India. I guess that's kind of second to Spain, like we said, at least as far as the largest co-ops go. But Italy, I would say, is possibly the country that supports co-ops the most on a societal level.

32:47Josh Clark:It seems like there's that S-word streak still running through Italy to a large degree.

32:55Chuck Bryant:Sure.

32:56Josh Clark:Yeah.

32:56Chuck Bryant:So the Italian government gives financial incentives to start and run a co-op. There's laws that say if you don't run a co-op, you have to give up one of your kids. They're really pro-co-op. They also, this is another thing too that some co-ops come out of, where a company will be failing and the owners will be like, well, that's it for me. I'm ruined. And the employees will be like, well, we still have some money that we can put together. Let us buy the company from you. And the owner will sell the company to the employees. And the government of Italy helps facilitate this kind of thing to make it more likely.

33:33Chuck Bryant:And that makes so much more sense than just letting a company fail. let the workers buy it if they want to and run it as a co-op. Let them all own the company.

33:43Josh Clark:Yeah, that's a big thing that happened in Argentina. And I sort of remember this in the early 2000s when Argentina was having such a rough time. A lot of workers were laid off in the industrial sector. And they did what you were just talking about. They were like, well, hey, this factory is going out of business. So let's, as employees, get together and buy these things. And it became known as the National Movement of Recovered Companies. and there are about 400 of these still going strong.

34:09Chuck Bryant:Yeah. What's cool about the Argentinian model too is I think they actually took over these companies. They were all laid off and they're like, oh yeah, watch this. I think that's pretty neat.

34:21Josh Clark:Yeah.

34:22Chuck Bryant:Mexico is well known for fishing cooperatives. This happens around the world, but Mexico has some pretty strong ones. And one of the cool things is that there's often lax enforcement of things like sustainability and catch quotas among fishermen in Mexico. So these co-ops tend to support sustainability themselves by essentially paying attention to one another and making sure everybody's acting fairly. Sustainability just grows out of that.

34:52Josh Clark:So you want to take another break? Oh, yeah, I didn't see that coming. All right, we'll come back right after this, and Josh will speak first because that's how we do things.

35:13Josh Clark:Go on, get a little out there into the big heart of Nevada, where you can go off-road and off the map on two lakes or on horseback. Dip into hot springs and dive into deserts. Climb a mountain or make your best effort. See thousands of stars in some of the darkest skies. Stake out haunted hotels. Can you make it to sunrise? There's always something new to see because we've got plenty of space to just be. Plan your trip at TravelNevada.com. Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi-asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto, and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI.

35:57Josh Clark:It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20 % year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one-of-a-kind index, and lets you backtest it against the S &P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast.

36:29Josh Clark:Paid for by Public Investing. Brokered services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA, and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Time for a sofa upgrade? Introducing Anabay Sofas, where designer style meets budget-friendly prices.

36:50Chuck Bryant:Anabay brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anabay is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquids simply slide right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high-resilience foam lets you choose between a sink and feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus, our pet-friendly, stain-resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price.

37:25Josh Clark:Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today. Sofas start at just$699 with no risk returns and a 30-day money-back guarantee. Get up to 60 % off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

37:52Chuck Bryant:So, Chuck, it's probably not a surprise. as we've seen compared to other countries, the United States is not exactly up to speed as far as co-ops are concerned. There's potentially 7 ,000 to 10 ,000 Americans out of what, 360-something million who are employed in co-ops in the United States. That's not a very significant number, but the people who are employed there are happier than you will ever be in your entire life.

38:23Josh Clark:Yeah, probably so. The largest one in the United States is the Cooperative Home Care Associates. It was started in the Bronx in 1985 when 12 home health aides came together and said, hey, there's got to be a better way. And they started recruiting people and they've got, wow, out of that 7 ,000 to 10 ,000, 2 ,000 of them work for the UCHCA. Yeah.

38:47Chuck Bryant:And then they also typically hire women of color and immigrants, usually low income, and train them to be home health aides. And then eventually with a thousand dollar payment, you can buy in and become a worker member owner. and they tend to have people have compared this model to actually this company, to other home health aid companies, and the workers tend to have greater job satisfaction. They trust management more because they're talking about themselves in a lot of cases, but even the workers who aren't member owners tend to have a higher trust in management. And this is where people are like, I don't get it.

39:27Chuck Bryant:Like, why would you do this? because what you're doing is creating a social good. Like it's not just about maximizing profits. And I believe Cooperative Home Care Associates is a for-profit company. And co-ops can be for-profit. They don't have to be for-profit. But they're proving that you can still promote a social good. You can still make society a better place and still turn a profit. It's just not, you know, you're not going to ever set the stock market on fire. That's not the point. The point is more to create the social good. And that's one of the things that the Cooperative Home Care Associates does.

40:05Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. There are some other cool examples here. I'm going to jump to, I know you know where I'm going, because Livia included the podcast company Maximum Fun.

40:16Chuck Bryant:Yeah.

40:17Josh Clark:Long-time supporters of Stuff You Should Know. Maximum Fun had a single sole owner in Jesse Thorne.

40:25Chuck Bryant:Yeah, mogul.

40:26Josh Clark:Yeah, he was a mogul very early on. He's the guy that set up Mark Maron initially in his garage with equipment and was like, here's how you do podcasting. So Jesse's a pioneer in the business itself, obviously does Judge John Hodgman with our pal.

40:42Chuck Bryant:Yeah.

40:43Josh Clark:And Jordan Jesse Goh and Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, a great interview show. But Maximum Fun was his. He started it as a very sort of forward-thinking young guy. jeez I don't even know how many years ago it had to be 20-ish years ago at this point and three years ago Jesse was like you know what I don't want to run the show anymore and I think Maximum Fun could transition to a co-op we've got these great employees who are heavily invested and why not see if they'll go all in and they did and Maximum Fun became a worker owned co-op

41:21Chuck Bryant:yeah which is pretty cool Well, I mean, even before that, he had basically transferred ownership of the individual shows to the show creators. And then so it was, I guess, kind of an easy, easy-ish leap into a co-op from there. So hats off, Jesse Thorne and all the peeps at MaxFun. That's right. If you happen to be up in Maine along the coast and you're an island hopper, I could not find exactly what islands. But there is a trio of stores, the Galley, V &S Variety, and Burnt Cove Market. And all three of them are worker owned and operated. And it was one of those situations where all three stores were being sold and the owners couldn't find any buyers.

42:08Chuck Bryant:And the workers were like, we'll buy it. So now 70 people off the coast of Maine are part of the Island Employee Cooperative, which is, again, pretty cool.

42:17Josh Clark:Totally. I don't think Maine has many islands, so I'm surprised you didn't find out what the deal was.

42:22Chuck Bryant:I saw that the thing was headquartered in, I think, Stonington, Maine, but I didn't see what island that was on. Who knows? It could be the mainland for all I know. I'm not an up-nor-easter, an up-easter.

42:35Josh Clark:A Mainer?

42:36Chuck Bryant:Yeah. I'm from across the pond.

42:39Josh Clark:You're from away, I think is what they say.

42:41Chuck Bryant:Yeah. I know. No, I cannot tell you how much Murder, She Wrote I've seen in my life, and I still haven't picked up the lingo. Oh, yeah. Cabot Cove, Maine.

42:51Josh Clark:Yeah, I never, as you know, never saw a single episode of Murder, She Wrote. Very sad about that.

42:56Chuck Bryant:I didn't know that, and I see you differently now.

43:00Josh Clark:I need to check it out. I know it's a classic. It's a great, great show. I think my delivery might have been so dry that we're going to get Germany's landlocked emails. I know there are thousands of islands off of Maine, by the way.

43:11Chuck Bryant:Oh, okay. You got me. You fooled me, Chuck.

43:15Josh Clark:We should talk, just at least mention ESOPs or employee stock ownership plans. Yeah. This isn't the same as a co-op because you're generally not getting like a vote on things and how things run.

43:28Chuck Bryant:Yeah.

43:28Josh Clark:But it's employees owning the business. And our beloved Publix supermarket chain is easily the largest employee-owned company in the United States. I think they own about, employees of Publix own about 80 % of the company, which is a lot.

43:42Chuck Bryant:Yeah, it's like they have stock, but rather than being publicly traded, you have to be a Publix employee to buy and own Publix stock. Pretty cool. And a lot of people retire pretty well-to-do because of the Publix stock that they've accrued over their career. And it's great, for sure.

44:00Josh Clark:Yeah. Ace Hardware, that's another kind of cool. And that's, you know, they're independent retailers. And I think most people know that because your local Ace hardware is owned and operated by somebody who lives there, which is kind of a cool model.

44:14Chuck Bryant:Yeah, like try buying something at one Ace and then taking it back at the other Ace. You're going to be sorely disappointed, my friend. Is that true? Oh, yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. I bought something. I should say Yumi bought something at an Ace. And I took it to the other Ace owned by the same company. and because we bought it online, they could not return it.

44:36Josh Clark:Oh, interesting. I don't think I knew that. Okay.

44:39Chuck Bryant:Yeah, be careful. You have to go back to the same Ace. It says it like on the sign.

44:44Josh Clark:Yeah, Ace is the place.

44:45Chuck Bryant:And the only place.

44:47Josh Clark:The helpful hardware folks, isn't that it?

44:49Chuck Bryant:Yeah, it is.

44:50Josh Clark:Should we end on a few pros and cons?

44:53Chuck Bryant:Oh, I just real quick want to shout out a couple of co-ops that are nonprofits. Subvert is an alternative to Bandcamp. It's musician-owned. And then FAIR, which I think is a clever use of the term, it's F-A-R-E. They're an alternative to like Uber and Lyft and their co-ops.

45:11Josh Clark:Oh, OK.

45:12Chuck Bryant:Yeah. There you go. Yeah.

45:14Josh Clark:I mean, that's got to check out and see if FAIR's in Atlanta.

45:17Chuck Bryant:OK. OK.

45:20Josh Clark:I don't use Uber. I use Lyft, but I've heard they're bad now, too. So it's I just don't even know who to get rides from when I've had too much to drink anymore.

45:27Chuck Bryant:Yeah. I used to do Lyft because supposedly they treated their people better. And I was talking to a Lyft driver once. He's like, no, Lyft is terrible now. Uber's nice to their drivers. And it's like, who can keep up with this? So I guess, yeah, just take fare.

45:40Josh Clark:All right. I'm going to check that out. Pros and cons now? Yes. All right. Well, we've mentioned some of these along the way. But one pro is, you know, one we touched on, which was that ratio between the highest paid worker and the lowest paid worker. They're definitely, you know, co-ops, you're not going to see things just so out of whack in terms of wage earning.

46:06Chuck Bryant:No, that's huge. Another one that's a pro in favor of co-ops, not all of them are pros in favor of co-ops. There are some cons, too, like you said, pros and cons. But if you work for a co-op, the chances of you getting laid off are pretty low, which you would think like, OK, well, does our co-ops just run and work as staffed by lazy people? It turns out no, because as an owner, a part owner of this co-op of this company that you're working for, you are a manager. So if everybody's a manager, they feel emboldened and empowered to police other workers. Everybody's just kind of keeping one another honest because they all have such a stake in this that co-op workers tend to actually be more productive and happier and less slack than workers who are essentially just wage labor.

47:00Josh Clark:Yeah. Or what do they call it? Quiet quitting?

47:03Chuck Bryant:Oh, I hadn't heard that, but that makes sense.

47:06Josh Clark:Yeah. Quiet quitting is when you're like phoning it in and just doing the bare minimum to not get fired.

47:10Chuck Bryant:Yeah. For sure.

47:12Josh Clark:Which is, yeah, no good, everybody. One con is, or I guess you would say it's a pro for a non-co-op, is they tend to be able to move a little quicker and act quicker on stuff if there's a crisis or if there's anything that needs like really fast attention. They don't have to sweat, you know, taking votes and asking everyone and debating what they think. So that can definitely sort of slow down in times of crisis if you're in a co-op.

47:39Chuck Bryant:Yes, but that said, you can make quick decisions and be more agile as a traditional capitalist company, but you can also make the wrong decision and go down the wrong road. So with a co-op, because it's moving slower, it's not trying to be on the Fortune 500 or anything like that, they can take their time a little more. And so they actually tend to outlast a lot of other companies, I guess, compared to other startups. Co-ops tend to last beyond the first five years, say, against a tech startup or something like that. Because you can take your time making decisions. It doesn't have to be like, now, now, now, you know?

48:21Josh Clark:Yeah, for sure. And, yeah, just job satisfaction. And we talked about this a few times, but overall, people that work for co-ops tend to report much happier lives, basically, in terms of their jobs.

48:34Chuck Bryant:That's right. I guess that's it for co-ops, Chuck. I think so. Well, we both agreed that that's it for co-ops, which means it's time for Listener Moon.

48:49Josh Clark:Yeah, this is a follow-up on the West Kowloon Walled City episode, which I thoroughly enjoyed, personally. Yeah, me too. Hey, guys, just listening to the episode, it reminded me of the Ponte, I guess, P-O-N-T-E, or Ponte City Tower in Johannesburg. Ponte City was completed in 1975 and originally intended to be a luxury development for the city's rich white folks. However, it quickly descended into decay for various reasons and is widely regarded as becoming the world's first, quote, vertical slum, end quote, by the late 80s. It's said that at its worst, the vast central core of the building was filled with trash, including human remains, all the way up to the fifth or sixth floor.

49:33Josh Clark:When I was visiting friends in Johannesburg back in 2013, I did a tour of the tower with one of the residents. It's a truly astonishing building with a super interesting story of grandeur and rapid descent into chaos and looks to be coming back again. Ponte has been used for sets of several sci-fi films. Neil Blomkamp is a big fan and was also the inspiration for the tower setting of the questionable 2012 Dread reboot. Thanks for the great stuff. That is from Bobby. Bobby sent in a picture from the interior of the city tower, and it is indeed super sci-fi and interesting looking.

50:09Chuck Bryant:I got to check that out, man. I hadn't heard of that at all. That was Bobby?

50:13Josh Clark:Yeah, Bobby.

50:14Chuck Bryant:Well, thanks a lot, Bobby. That was a great email. We appreciate it. And if you want to be like Bobby and tell us about something that we didn't know about, we're always welcoming those. You can send it off to StuffPodcasts at iHeartRadio.com.

50:31Josh Clark:Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favourite shows.

51:01Josh Clark:what? My insurance bill? With trembling hands, I grabbed my phone and switched to Geico, saving about$900 in the process and never to be betrayed again. Now that was bloody riveting. It feels good when the story ends with savings. It feels good to Geico. What's up, cousin? I want a new phone. Have you seen any good deals? Everyone has free phones, but when I switched to T-Mobile, I got more value and so much more. Like streaming included. And Trouble benefits. And the best part, the price of your talk, text, and data is guaranteed for five years. Get more benefits and more value. At T-Mobile, families save and get a five-year price guarantee.

51:39Josh Clark:Switch now at T-Mobile.com. Qualifying plan requires price guarantee on talk, text, and data. Exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See T-Mobile.com. Go on, get a little out there. Into the big heart of Nevada. Where you can go off-road and off the map. On two legs or on horseback. Dip into hot springs and dive into deserts. Climb a mountain or make your best effort. See thousands of stars in some of the darkest skies. Stake out haunted hotels. Can you make it to sunrise? There's always something new to see because we've got plenty of space to just be. Plan your trip at TravelMevada.com. This is an iHeart Podcast.

52:20Josh Clark:Guaranteed human.