How Maker's Mark Turned a Bourbon Distillery Into a Must-Visit Destination

0:00ZS is a global consulting and technology firm that partners with companies to improve life and how we live it. Working with the world's top hospitality brands, ZS brings together data, science, technology, and human ingenuity to transform ideas into customer loyalty. They're ready to help you elevate guest experiences, improve operations, and uncover preferences and motivations through their AI-powered solutions. With more than 1 ,700 clients in over 170 countries, ZS has built the expertise, fortitude, and vision to help you deliver impact right where it matters. I'm Frank Krockenberger, and you're listening to Sweet Success.

0:46You've just checked in to Sweet Success. Join me, Katie Klein, for exclusive conversations with hotel executives, hospitality leaders, and industry innovators. Together, we'll uncover the strategies and techniques these masters of hospitality relentlessly refine. Whether you're already in the industry or just starting out, tune in every week to unlock the secret to your sweet success.

1:15Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Sweet Success. I'm your host, Katie Klein, and today I'm thrilled to welcome Frank Krockenberger to the show. Frank is the director of hospitality at Maker's Mark Distillery, one of the most recognized names in American bourbon with a globally renowned reputation of craftsmanship. Frank leads the hospitality program at Star Hill Farm, the brand's home place in Loretto, Kentucky, which spans the breadth of the guest experience, from tours, tastings, and immersive experiences, to retail, food and beverage, cocktail and culinary programming, private events, and the company's commercial hospitality strategy.

1:53With nearly two decades of experience in the beverage industry, he now leads a team of more than 50 professionals dedicated to creating the world's most endearing, culturally rich, and environmentally responsible home place. Frank, Thank you so much for joining us today. So happy to be here. Thank you. I thought it was really cool to hear that Maker's Mark put such an emphasis on hospitality, not only with just your role, but then with the size of your team. And I know I touched on a bit in your introduction, but can you give us an overview of what a director of hospitality at Maker's Mark Distillery actually does?

2:28Absolutely. Starting off with a big question. I could probably take the whole time answering that. However, I think from the most basic level, I'm very fortunate I get to work directly for Rob Samuels. He's the grandson of the founders, so I'm very close to that founding vision. And so Rob and I work very closely together to set the tone and direction for what the hospitality program at Maker's Mark is going to look and feel like. And from there, it really is simply put about running the business. That said, it's a lot more than just the P &L and vendor management and the kind of boring side of things.

3:06It's a whole lot about building a team that I can trust and listening to that team because they're the ones that are out every single day with our guests and then helping them make adjustments to the plan to execute that vision with excellence the way Rob and I set up the vision to begin with. Well, I think it's really cool, too, that you're working so closely with Rob, because I know that hospitality has been important to the brand since the co-founder Margie Samuels. She was the creative force behind the Maker's Mark name, the bottle, the iconic red wax. She established hospitality as really a defining point of the brand's identity.

3:50Why has that always been so crucial? It's not necessarily something you'd immediately think of when you think of a spirits company. Yeah, no, that's a great question. So, you know, when Bill and Margie, her husband set out to create Maker's Mark, they created what we kind of call the flavor vision, right? And that flavor vision starts with something that isn't a flavor at all. And it's, they wanted to create a bourbon that you can invite your friends over to enjoy and really welcome them into your home. And so we take that to heart still to this day. You know, we kind of always loop back to that flavor vision, whether we're talking about the experience here on site or the actual, you know, bourbon or whiskey that we're creating.

4:33And so in doing that, she really set the ground for what it means to build relationships with our guests. if you're visiting makers, you know, chances are it might be a once in a lifetime experience, maybe once a year or once a decade. Very few people, you know, we have some loyalists that come once a month, but it's really about, you know, her vision is making them all feel as though you're welcoming them into your home. And that's really important for us because you wouldn't want a guest in your home to have a bad experience. So that's our guiding principle today. Oh, I love that. It's true.

5:13I mean, when you talk about visiting the distillery, I mean, Margie has actually been credited with almost inventing bourbon tourism. And it's true because when I think about visiting Kentucky, the first thing that I would want to do is visit you guys and learn more about it. And I like what you're saying. You know, it could be a once in a lifetime trip. It could be something that you come as frequently as once a month. But either way, you want to make sure you're delivering that experience, no matter if it's the first, the only, the hundredth time you're there. How has that really impacted not only Maker's Mark sales, but the area as well, like that driving force of bringing tourism in?

5:55Sure. Yeah, there's the old adage in hospitality that people won't remember the details, but they'll remember the way you made them feel. So at the most basic level, we have almost a duty to uphold that for anyone visiting Kentucky. We want to be good ambassadors of the state, of our people and our communities. So that's absolutely in the background for us for everything that we do. But it's also about long-term results. Anybody can put on a good show for a short amount of time, but we really need those positive results to resonate out in the market. Because ultimately, of course, we want people to become brand fans and have that first old-fashioned with Baker's Mark instead of with something else, right?

6:51In doing so, we build value for the guest as a way of delivering that. So how do you ensure that that happens with every visit? We have to make sure that the value is there regardless of what someone's visiting for. Or if you think about other destinations similar to Kentucky, we think a lot about Napa on the wine trail. And there's already value built in that because people think of high-value wines and things like that. The bourbon industry is really no different. And it's really about supporting that value through what we're creating. that way when people do go back, they see this as a must-visit destination, not as a, okay, that was cool.

7:41Maybe we'll do it again. Maybe we won't. It really needs to resonate as, nope, that's a must. We have to visit Kentucky. We're going to recommend it to our friends. And when you're there, you have to visit Maker's Mark. I'm intrigued too with what you're talking about with long-term results because that was something I wanted to ask you about today. Almost what is the business case for hospitality? because even what you were talking about with this flavor vision, a lot of this sounds nice. It sounds like from the guest perspective, I would love it. It sounds like the right thing to do as a business.

8:14But like you said, it needs to come down to what the results are. So how are you actually measuring the success of your hospitality program? How do you think of the return on investment there? Yeah. It's different for us because in most cases, outside of our you know, our operating budget, we don't see what that true ROI is out in market. So we have to measure things a little differently. I think it's qualitative and quantitative. Quantitative, you know, we do have some metrics that, you know, are common throughout the hospitality industry. We also use an NPS score. You know, our benchmark for a good NPS is 95 or better, which, you know, is fairly high, but that's the bar we want to set for ourselves.

9:01And we also look at that in terms of not just sales volume, but what we're offering our guests. I'll give you a good example. We decided a long time ago that we wouldn't offer trinkets in the gift shop, right? We wouldn't offer what you might think of as a typical souvenir because we want people to leave and have a lasting impression of Maker's Mark and not just a, you know, we never want them to throw something away that they got from here, right? So that's a lot of things you can put numbers to. But there's really a piece that is more qualitative, and it's about our people. If we're able to retain extremely good talent here, we have less than 3 % turnover rate on the hospitality team because people love doing what they do, whether they're a tour guide or a server or a bartender or a manager.

9:57they all really take pride in the workplace. And that triggers innovation when you have that sense of pride. And so a lot of the things that we're doing are really built from within. We're paying attention to what the guest says and comments and our feedback, of course. After visit feedback is crucial to us. And we take all of that and we allow our staff to innovate as a result. and being able to look at all of that as a halo to the brand and say, you know, yes, we're a marketing engine for the brand in a lot of ways. But so much of what the brand does resonates from here that it's, you know, it's a lasting impression.

10:45You had also talked about how important it is to build value for your guests who come. So unfortunately, I have not been to visit you yet. I will. I promise. It is definitely on my list to get to because it sounds like an incredible experience. But talk us through what is that like when your guests arrive? Like what can they experience, do? What does the space look like? Yeah, boy. So the first thing that people probably notice when they enter the front door at Maker's Mark is it's a little different from other distilleries they may have been to. You actually enter through an art gallery here because we want to set that stage that it's going to be a little different.

11:26And really walk people through our thinking and our process behind what it takes to make a handcrafted bourbon inspired by nature and that has a sense of place and belonging in our community. We're in a very, very tiny little town. I always tell people when you think you're absolutely lost, you're almost here to give you some perspective. and so it takes you know you have to try to get here there's no one that's just driving down the side of the road and goes oh we think we'll stop by Maker's Mark so you know I we set that stage for them that way right when they show up their bar is probably fairly high and we want to keep that expectation that high throughout the duration of their visit so every guest whether they're here just as a, you know, kind of a walk-on guest or they've booked three months in advance.

12:25They all check in, they all are greeted by our staff. And so we can get them kind of routed to the right part of their destination. And I imagine, like you said, the fact that it is so off the beaten path, it is intentional that people have come here. So I would imagine you have a lot of people coming for real milestones. Like you said, almost once in a lifetime, it's either like a big birthday or something they're celebrating or it's like they've been excited for this trip and this is something that they've really wanted to do. So if you think about that and all of the guests that you've served, what are some of the more unique or memorable moments you've had with your guests?

13:05Oh boy. I'll tell you, I wasn't prepared for visiting here. There's guests that have some major milestones. This is what their grandfather's favorite bourbon was and they're coming here to memorialize him. or people spend, we've had people engaged here, we've had people spend obviously birthdays and bachelor parties and everything you can imagine. But really the thing that brings me joy is when somebody leaves and they say, wow, I had no idea. Now what comes after that could be, I had no idea the intentionality that went into the hand crafting your bourbon or I had no idea, you know, nature was such an inspiration to the flavor of what you're producing.

13:56So it could mean different things to different people. But I think everybody gets to walk away from here with a sense of wonderment, I guess, is the right way to put that. And then, you know, the other biggest compliment I can receive, and you see it in our feedback, you know, we make some tremendously good bourbon. The space is absolutely beautiful. You're surrounded by nature and art. But the thing I get the biggest compliments are our people. Everybody was friendly. And, you know, it's a little bit of that Southern hospitality that's, you know, of course, embedded in Kentucky. And people will come in, you know, a second, third, fourth time.

14:39They'll remember their tour guide's name. And I can't, you know, I can't remember the last factory tour I took where I remember the tour guide's name. Well, and you mentioned Loretto being quite a tiny town. I am assuming you are not from there originally? No, no. I'm from St. Louis originally, though I spent most of my adult life in the Houston area. Also working, you know, kind of in different parts of the organization I'm a part of now from sales through advocacy. And really, I moved to Kentucky and uprooted life for this role and to be close to the distilleries again. Wow. And so how has your adjustment been and how long have you been living there now?

15:25Yeah. So I moved in May of 2020. There was nothing going on there. Brought my wife and animals with us. And it's been, Kentucky's fantastic. It's the best parts of the South while being central to the US. The landscape is absolutely stunning. And the people really truly are some of the best folks. Sorry, all my Texas friends, they would get really upset with me. But the culture here is really special, I think. And so it's been good. It's a little bit of a slowdown too, which is nice. Yeah. You're talking to a New Yorker here. So the idea of a slowdown sounds lovely, actually. I'm completely on board.

16:14Maybe I'm packing my bags for longer than just a few days visit. But in your introduction, we talked about the breadth of your team. How is recruitment being in a small town? Is it hard? Or because of the globally recognized brand that you have, is it easier to pull people to move? Yeah. Yes to kind of both of those. The magnetic sort of nature of the brand certainly helps. It does help bring in talent from afar. I would say most of my team is fairly local. I'd say within like 30 minutes to an hour from Kentucky, maybe born and raised, maybe not. But a select group of folks are imports. My restaurant manager is from London.

17:03I've got someone from Colorado. Talent comes from all over. A lot of them are affiliated with the Spirits company. It's a huge group of people, but we all kind of know each other, similar to other industries. So it's a challenge. I think the biggest thing is convincing others that it's worth that slowdown and embedding yourself in Kentucky culture. That can be the most difficult part, but luckily I don't have to look very often. True, with that less than 3 % turnover rate. Absolutely. Well, and that was something I was excited to ask you about too, because Maker's Mark is this global brand. But as we've already touched on so much, the identity is so rooted in Kentucky.

17:54So I'm just wondering how you balance that, the global growth side of it, the global awareness growing, but also protecting that sense of place. Sure. One of the reasons that I'm a part of the Makers Mark family is because a lot of the, even our current brand campaign, it's called Perfectly Unreasonable, even the notion of that really emanated from the home place itself. whether it's you know yes the experience we offer here how we make our bourbon it's all classified as as perfectly unreasonable um which for the you know for the marketers and the the kind of greater organization to latch on to these incredible stories that you know existed long before i and and will exist long after um myself they all use that founder's vision as a north star And as long as we're true to that, it allows that global ambition, absolutely, to be rooted in a very local sort of mindset.

19:07You know, there's an opportunity that happens here that you may not get when an operation is run the opposite, which is that we get to spend one-on-one time with our guests, see what their values are, see what they're looking for, and feed that back into the market. So adjustments can be made where needed, or where great ideas sometimes sort of spiral out of here and you see them pop up in an activation market. And you're like, oh, hey, we did that first, which is pretty cool. Can you give some examples of perfectly unreasonable stories? Oh, boy. You know, I think we always challenge ourselves, you know, especially on the experience side of things, because we were always looking to to do some new things with our guests.

20:03we have this lovely facility that we'll have to show you when you visit. It's called our Lakeside Tasting Room. And it sits right on the water source, which is a 10-acre spring-fed lake that is sort of the lifeblood of our bourbon. And it's just a serene setting out in nature. Up until that moment, we just used for some of our single barrel selections. And we had a yoga instructor on staff. We still do. and she said, you know, this place would be great to do yoga. And we thought, well, that's absolutely crazy to do. Let's do that. That's perfectly unreasonable. Yeah, that's perfectly unreasonable.

20:41Let's host this, you know, sort of well, it's not what most people think of when they come to the bourbon trail. Yeah. It's shocking how many people are like, I really could use, you know, a nice hand-squeezed juice and some yoga before going back out on the trail. And, you know, we sneak in some bourbon education along the way too, right? Um, just everything we think about in that way. Um, yes, we can serve you a cocktail behind the bar, um, but so can anybody. What if we take that experience out into, you know, the 1100 acres that we call home and all of our cocktails, you know, you're having an apple cocktail in the apple orchard.

21:18What if you're having a wheat cocktail out in a wheat field? Um, logistically, these things are a nightmare, um, but they're the exact kind of unreasonable sort of experience that we want to provide for our guests. There are a lot of headlines these days about younger generations drinking less alcohol than their older predecessors. I've also read a lot about older generations drinking more than they used to be drinking. And I'm curious, just because the distillery is kind of an interesting testing ground, like what are you seeing in terms of generational trends? Yeah, we like to think of things because, you know, they are just trends, right?

21:59They will be cyclical like others, we hope. But it's really about drinking with intention now, I think, more. You might see folks, you know, eschewing the value propositions more so. And really, drinking it with intentionality is perfect for us because it's the way we've been creating bourbon the whole time. It's also the way we design our experiences and the way we treat our guests when they come here. So, I don't want to say it's been an easy transition because any sort of change to the market presents its challenges. But if you put intention in everything you do, whether it's the ingredients, our commitment to sustainability and nature, right down to how we greet our guests, they come away as believers.

22:51Fun sort of example of that. We've talked a little bit about how far away we are. it's almost universal people arrive and they're like how do we not take the same road in that the gps guided us on because it's a one lane road and there's frequently cows and donkeys and all sorts of things and so you know it would have been easy to say yeah that's kind of a nightmare sorry but instead we have you know instructions on how to get to each major destination and it's one of our first engagements with our guests. You know, we always think that, you know, somebody could have gotten a fight over getting lost on the way here.

23:33And it's our job to kind of turn that mentality around. And really that's, you know, going back to this idea of intentionality, it's if you start off that way, everything else becomes a little bit easier because you're not trying to fight. And I think the current trends we're seeing in consumption are right in that neighborhood. If we have a product that feels very intentional and it has a, you know, provenance behind it and you can look and see the wheat fields that the wheat is coming from that's in our bourbon, a lot of, you know, especially your younger audience right now, that's what they're looking for.

24:12They're looking for that transparency. You know, the authenticity is a word we live by, but it's becoming a trend now. Well, we've always been doing this. It's easy for us. Even before you and I started recording, I was telling you that over the weekend, I had an old fashion with Maker's Mark and it had been a while for me since I had an old fashion, which used to be one of my favorite, favorite drinks. And the only reason it's been a while is because I had two children. So I was just like slowly using myself back in. But I think about my own consumption habits now and it's exactly what you said.

24:47It's I'm not just having a drink to have a drink and I don't care where we are and what we're having and I'll just have the best of that. If I'm going to have a drink, it's going to be something, like you said, that's really crafted that I know that I'm going to enjoy because I am drinking less than I used to be. Right. Yeah, that's the key. And as things change, we'll always adjust with them. But I think this is, you know, for at least the amount of time that matters to me in my career trajectory, this is probably, you know, the place that we're going to be for some time. And like I said, I think Baker's Mark is really poised to excel in an environment like that because we're not behind the curve in adjusting.

25:33It's the way we've been doing it all along. Well, even the example that you just gave about the way that you change your instructions for people to get to major destinations, it makes me think a lot in the hotel industry, we talk about the art of the arrival and how those first 10 minutes are so crucial to the entire guest experience. And it sounds like you and your team are putting that through that lens as well of knowing what are the things that could have happened on their way to get to our doors? and how do we not only mitigate that, but really kind of take them into the fold once they're here so they forget about anything else that happened.

26:09That's right. Yeah, it's the same philosophy. We call that meeting people where they are and that can mean a lot of different things, particularly as that demographic changes. And, you know, 10 years ago, so recently, people visiting the Bourbon Trail were like bourbon aficionados. They were deeply engaged in the culture and the process and everything of bourbon. Whereas today, I don't want to say it's secondary because it's still primary, but they're also looking for a cultural experience. And so art is a great cultural experience that's not only beautiful to look at, but it's really embedded in the community and what artists you engage with.

26:59So there's an opportunity there to meet those folks where they're coming from. Through nature, agritourism is really growing. And we're very fortunate to also be a working farm. So we have the opportunity to take people out into nature. And we've hosted farmers that don't actually drink. They're sober. But they're getting something out of the experience and in the lens that fits their background or their career. I mentioned yoga. That's another good example. Last fall, we hosted a large-scale exhibition from Dale Chihuly, and that brought people from around the world. So it's really, where do we engage with these folks?

27:43How do we do it in a way that resonates with them? cocktail and culinary are not all distilleries serve cocktails, right? It was a fairly recent sort of provision in Kentucky law that you could serve a cocktail. And so when you're doing that, how do you not only just serve a good cocktail, but do it in a way that makes people think and want to go back home and, you know, buy makers and recreate that old-fashioned experience they had here. I think culinary is big right now, too, because we have plenty of folks that are either limiting their consumption or have cut it out entirely, and they still have to eat, and they do typically enjoy, you know, the finer side of that and being able to serve them, you know, wagyu from our property or produce from our property.

28:38That goes a long way in that storytelling, even if they haven't tried to sip a bourbon while they're here. And like you said, we can call it a trend or not, but I think everything that you just touched on is proof of you guys are acting as the steward of the place. When you come in, it's not just come here and try our bourbon. It's like we have been rooted in this place since our birth, and we are the ones who can also teach you about food, about cocktails, about wellness, about sustainability, etc. et cetera here, which is what we're seeing from travelers in general. When you go to a place, you don't want to just copy paste your life from home.

29:15You really want to feel like you're in the place that you're in. Yeah, absolutely. It's all about the experience. Now, if we listen to any data out there on the younger generation, they're valuing experience over things. So how you bring that experience to life and make them feel afterwards, that's really what's propelling our industry right now. Another overused buzzword is sustainability, but you have brought this up so many times just authentically. And when we were talking, you've talked about the lake that you did, the yoga by, you talked about 1100 acres, the agro-tourism. So I'm just curious how you're thinking about environmental responsibility in general.

30:00Yeah. So let's take a a step backwards again. And, uh, you know, you'll, you've heard me say this a few times, this, this also is rooted in our founders vision. Um, and at the time, you know, we probably didn't even call it sustainability. Right. Um, but it was sustainability from necessity as the way things started because we're fairly remote and you, you know, rather than pay large sums to import, You use the natural ingredients that are closest to you, the water. And that really has sort of grown with us as we grow in scale and are able to find new ways of being those stewards in the environment, a way that would make Bill and Margie proud.

30:47You know, sustainability was just the better choice from a business perspective, which not everyone is fortunate enough to say that. But for us, that's really where it started. And then where that has sort of taken us now is at a completely other level. Because after you become Zero Landfill, which we are, you're a B Corp, which we're very, very happy to be amongst that small group of organizations. You know, what else do you do? And so it's become lately for us about the protecting the future. And I don't even mean like my kids, but my kids' kids. For our non-bourbon listeners to call it bourbon, you have to age your whiskey in a virgin American oak barrel, which, you know, what happens if the American wine oak supply becomes threatened?

31:45And so we have the world's largest repository of American white oak trees in the American white oak research forest that we have on site that we partner with the University of Kentucky to, you know, to study. Initiatives like that, that, you know, they're not for bourbon tomorrow. They're for bourbon 100, 150 years from now. that's sort of the next big thing for us in the world of sustainability to ensure that that we're doing the right thing you know on a very long long-term skill that is really cool because sometimes the New York City skeptic in me can hear about certain sustainability programs from brands and see it for maybe being more of a cost-cutting exercise but for you to say something like actually growing a forest and investing in that.

32:39I mean, that is really showing we are invested in the future of this industry. Absolutely, we have to be. That's one of the other sort of call a blessing or a curse depending on who you are. The nature of being a larger, high visibility bourbon brand like Maker's Mark, yes, we should do good for ourselves and for the community, but we want to also set a good example for the industry as a whole, or really all industry, that doing the right thing could be more costly. You could probably cut costs as well, but it shouldn't be about either of those things. It should be in service of doing the right thing.

33:23We have entire roles dedicated to this notion of doing business for a higher purpose. Mm-hmm. Unbelievably, it is nearly the holidays. I can't believe how fast this year has gone. And obviously, as I mentioned, I'm a huge fan of bourbon, so I might be a bit biased here. But when I think about the holidays, I think about fun craft cocktails that I can enjoy with my family and my friends. Can you give us some recipes of what we should be making for the holidays this year? Oh, boy, this is a fun one. So another little sidestep here. I'm extremely fortunate. And I hope most people out there could say this to work with my wife.

34:09She works on our innovation team under a master distiller and is kind of head of cocktail innovation, both for on site and globally. and so I was talking with her she knew I was doing this podcast and I'm like I really need to think about what we're doing for the holidays this year because I'm sure it's going to come up and so we do about five menu changes at our main bar all rooted in both nature and seasonality and so we were talking this morning about what some of our favorites are so I could share with you and you know this is again where where the idea of delighting our guests becomes paramount and people have such a attachment to the holidays right like they they they know what they like um which can be one of our more challenging menus to execute so two things i'll share with you is a bourbon hot chocolate, but this can't just be any bourbon hot chocolate.

35:14We use a really high quality drinking chocolate. We melt that down with high quality either dairy or non-dairy, depending on the need. A little bit of cinnamon, a little bit of ancho pepper, because the spice really lifts that flavor up. And we either, you know, Cast Strength Maker's Mark 46 is my personal favorite for the hot chocolate or Cast Strength Maker's Mark. Those are a really lovely combination. You can obviously have it hot in your hand while you're walking around enjoying nature. So that's an easy one. And then a personal favorite of mine is we all know we leave out cookies and milk for Santa.

35:58I think both of the things belong together and with bourbon. So if you take your favorite holiday cookies and soak them in milk, strain that out really nice. You have a really lovely milk punch base that you can combine with bourbon, maybe a little chocolate liqueur and have cookies and milk. A little decadent, a little simple. Wow, that sounds delicious. Yes, can't go wrong either way, hot or cold. You got both sides covered. Okay, I'm going to try that. I've never thought about that one before. Yeah, cookie milk is, you'll see it sort of pop up here and there. Some of your trendy establishments will also then clarify that milk and do a clarified milk punch.

36:42Also fantastic. A couple extra steps there, but totally new one. Okay. And I heard from a friend of mine that obviously visiting the Maker's Mark Distillery at any time of year is wonderful, but that it's particularly magical at the holiday time. So what changes at that time of year? So it's an interesting thing. So we, visitorship declines in the colder months because travel declines in the colder months. It gives us a really fantastic opportunity to kind of pull out all the stops for the folks that choose to visit that time of year. So we decorate. The campus is absolutely beautiful, but at night with twinkling lights, that's very special in of itself.

37:28Lots of photographs are taken. That's sometimes where our engagements take place is in evening in December. And then we do some holiday sip and stroll type tour activities where you start off with one of those bourbon hot chocolates. a guide will take you around teach you about the bourbon process while enjoying the lights this year we're going to do a string quartet along the way and then some special surprises in the gift shop and in the restaurant that are kind of holiday themed that's our sort of evening offering and then for the next level up this year we're doing a play on Feast of the Seven Fishes but we're not known for seafood here in Kentucky.

38:15So we're doing feast of the seven dishes. And this is our solution to a tasting menu. And over the year, we've kind of held and preserved some of our favorite things throughout the year. And all of that will sort of show up in a seven course tasting menu that we're hosting in our onsite restaurant. So a couple of fun things to do. Really just looking around here at night is beautiful enough, but obviously we add a little bourbon and some hot chocolate to the mix. It does feel really festive when you describe it and thinking about all of that. It does sound like it would be really a great time of year to go, but I guess, you know, you'll have to take at least two trips because I would like to see it in the spring as well.

38:59Yes, absolutely. And, you know, we kind of have a give me for the holidays because red is one of our primary colors. So it's an easy tie-in there. Yeah. As you think about the future for the distillery, what's next? Yeah. So we're going to continue innovating experiences that matter to people. We're going to continue to be inspired by nature and push people out into nature a bit further and letting them understand not just bourbon, but Stargo Farm Whiskey is our first non-bourbon whiskey that we created and it really celebrates wheat. So focusing on things like that as those releases come out, key to what we're doing, but it's safe to say, you know, hospitality in general is going to have a bit of a bumpy road while we figure out, you know, what guests value and what matters to them as their dollars might be stretched in the future.

40:01And, you know, we have to nail both sides of that. We have to bring them experiences that matter and they should walk away understanding that the value is there in their visit and hopefully it will come back. Frank, particularly for you, I wanted to do a hopefully fun little rapid fire round. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. Best cocktail to make in a big batch for a party? Draft highballs. Love to put, you know, it could be simple, Makers 46 and soda, but you get to put it in a keg, carbonate it, serve yourself. It's an easy one for a party. Favorite cocktail to make when you're hosting? Seasonal old-fashioned.

40:49So I love to take your classic old-fashioned recipe, but inject a really hyper-seasonal fruit, blackberries in the summer, apple butter old-fashioned in the fall, pomegranate molasses old-fashioned in the winter. That way it's a familiar thing to folks, but different. One bar tool that everyone should own. Can I cheat and give you two? Sure. Yes. A wine key and a sharp knife. You can get by with those for pretty much anything. Your favorite bourbon and food pairing. This is tough. I'm going to go with spice cake or pumpkin pie and Maker's Mark 46. I like the spice to play off each other. And I just have a sweet tooth.

41:40That's just... Yeah, sign me up for that. One thing you secretly judge when you walk into a bar or a restaurant. Uh-oh. The other guests. For what they ordered? Just in general. You can tell so much about a bar or restaurant by who's in there, what they're drinking, what the atmosphere is like. Is there anybody in there in general? The other guests tell you everything you need to know about the place. Favorite cocktail garnish?

42:12This is probably cheating. But a garnish has to be purposeful. If you give me a lime, I'm going to squeeze it into the drink and expect it to make a difference in the flavor profile. If it's something that doesn't make sense or it's just there for decoration, I see that as a waste. One big ice cube or crushed ice? Big ice cube. You can always crush it. I can't make crushed ice a big ice cube. One thing you'd splurge on when stocking a home bar? really high quality other things so we already know you've got maker's mark on the bar but you know your your bitters your cherries all of your sort of accoutrements those those matter um and please please keep your vermouth in the fridge psa you heard it here that's right frank i want to ask you the last three questions that i ask every guess.

43:08And the first is what was the best hospitality experience that you have ever had? Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm very fortunate to have a lot of great ones. Um, I think the best, uh, visited Scotland for the first time. Um, and it was actually my first big international trip. Um, and, um, the aforementioned wife was, uh, participating in a cocktail competition And we ran into her competitors in one of the liquor stores there. And by the end of the night, all of the competitors were around, having a good time, helping each other source tools and equipment and ingredients. And down the road, the very people that we met there allowed us to get married in their bar, our close personal friends.

44:00And that's those relationships that matter. You can spend a lot of money somewhere and get really good sort of surface-level hospitality, but something that is lasting and cause friendships down the road, you can't beat that. On the opposite side of that amazing experience, what was the worst hospitality experience you've ever had? I went to a bar once. Obviously, we'll name no names nor location to keep the innocent away. It was a ripoff of a very famous bar in New York, actually. I'll give you a hint. I won't tell you who it was, please. There you go. And everything about this ripoff bar was just like the worst version of the best parts of that bar.

44:55It was overseas, which added a certain element of just sort of laughability to it. But the worst part of it was they had a really good cocktail menu. And every cocktail we asked them to make, they're like, we can't make that. We can't make that. We got some beers and got out of there as fast as possible. Wow. How disappointing. Yeah. Final question for you. What does hospitality mean to you? And is there anyone, a person, or a brand that you think has truly mastered it? All right. What possibility means to me is pretty straightforward. Regardless of what you're doing, great hospitality is putting forth the best version of that that exists and accepting nothing else, whether that's a phenomenal bourbon experience or just a cheeseburger down the street.

45:49They both have sort of their place in the world, but you should still be proud of the most basic thing or the most elevated thing. If you focus on that, the hospitality part of it's fairly easy. Who's doing that great? Lexus comes to mind, like the car. They've really focused on the guest experience versus putting people in a car and moving on. Apple is right up there too for just that sort of concierge style of service that you get in their stores and there's a lot of folks that have emulated that that are doing it just as well but again they're kind of focusing on that best version of the thing and making sure it resonates with their customers Frank, this has been a ton of fun I think we have some holiday cocktails to go make now Yes, and please come visit Loretto as soon as possible All right, everyone.

46:50It's time for today's sweet summary where I break down the key insights and actionable takeaways from today's conversation. When Maker's Mark first began, they didn't start with sales projections, market research, or a plan to outperform the competition. They started with something they call their flavor vision. But even that had little to do with ingredients, tasting notes, or the technicalities of making bourbon. The vision was simple. Craft a bourbon so good that you'd want to invite your friends over to enjoy it. To me, that says this brand has always understood the importance of bringing people together.

47:27For Maker's Mark, success is measured both quantitatively and qualitatively. Of course, there are traditional metrics like NPS or Net Promoter Score, where the team sets an extraordinarily high bar of 95 or higher. But Frank also emphasized the importance of creating an environment where employees genuinely enjoy coming to work, feeling valued, and want to continue building their careers. And while culture itself can be difficult to quantify, their employee turnover rate of less than 3 % is a pretty compelling indication that they're doing something right. Throughout our conversation, Frank reinforced the importance of putting the guest experience ahead of the sale.

48:09For him and his team, hospitality begins long before a guest arrives at Star Hill Farm. Even something as simple as anticipating the challenges visitors might encounter on their drive and preparing different sets of directions depending on where they're coming from demonstrates a commitment to solving problems before they even happen. Hospitality doesn't always have to be grand or elaborate. Sometimes the smallest gestures can make the biggest difference. It's about putting yourself in your guest's shoes, understanding what they might be thinking or feeling, and finding ways to make their experience a little easier, more comfortable, or more memorable.

48:49Finally, Frank said something that jumped out at me, something I think is as true in life as it is when you're visiting the Maker's Mark Distillery. It's usually when you think you're lost, that's when you know that you're almost here. And that concludes another episode of Sweet Success. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please subscribe, rate, and review the show. We all know how important those five-star reviews are. I also want to say a massive thank you to each and every one of you for tuning in. It means the absolute world to me. And I'd love to hear from you. If you have ideas for future guests, new topics to cover, or even just want to say hi, don't be shy.

49:28Message me through our website, sweetsuccesspodcast.com, or on social media, at sweetsuccesspodcast. That's sweet like hotel suite. Once again, I'm your host, Katie Klein, and I'm super excited to see you all next week. ZS is a global consulting and technology firm that partners with companies to improve life and how we live it. Working with the world's top hospitality brands, ZS brings together data, science, technology, and human ingenuity to transform ideas into customer loyalty. They're ready to help you elevate guest experiences, improve operations, and uncover preferences and motivations through their AI-powered solutions.

50:09With more than 1 ,700 clients in over 170 countries, ZS has built the expertise, fortitude, and vision to help you deliver impact right where it matters.